GWF sentinel tank possible?

wilbur626 · February 2017

When I get tired of my main GF, I tinker around with my GWF and try to make it a proper tank. I fail miserably. Is it possible in any way ?

mebengalsfan · February 2017

I asked the same question and the answer I got was NO...

wilbur626 · February 2017

mebengalsfan#9264 said:
I asked the same question and the answer I got was NO...

HAMSTER. I think the GWS senteniel with the "tanking" skills looks so damn awesome, I got mine rigged with r12 enchants, stacked defense, power and recovery. I dont do damage at all (even less than my GF protector) and my striker companion steals aggro from me. Would be truly awesome if it was possible to make a build even for tanking the below FBI/SVA dungeons

ghoulz66 · February 2017

It's mechanically impossible, endgame. Even a GF or OP without any temp HP and man dr are still capable of being one shot in endgame group content. They have extra tools to tank, a gwf doesn't

Then there's the other problem, damage, and threat. Intimidation was nerfed to oblivion. There is no dps from that tree anymore. If a dps in the group is dealing more damage than you there's a good chance your extra threat is doing jack HAMSTER to draw agro because you are doing so much less damage than a dps who's stealing agro. If intimidation hard taunted it would be a different story.

They could reverse the nerf to intimidation for pve, so sentinel could achieve very solid burst damage, but it still would lack the tanking solution. Less the capstone allowed sentinel to ignore the dr cap, but then unstoppable would wear off and it'd die anyway.

So the most likely thing is that it should just be treated like damnation, as an extra damage sponge for the dps, if there ever any need for a second threat generator in a dungeon when we're moving away from the glorious add fest boss fights. Damage problem is easy to solve for sentinel.

wilbur626 · February 2017

ghoulz66 said:
It's mechanically impossible, endgame. Even a GF or OP without any temp HP and man dr are still capable of being one shot in endgame group content. They have extra tools to tank, a gwf doesn't

Then there's the other problem, damage, and threat. Intimidation was nerfed to oblivion. There is no dps from that tree anymore. If a dps in the group is dealing more damage than you there's a good chance your extra threat is doing jack HAMSTER to draw agro because you are doing so much less damage than a dps who's stealing agro. If intimidation hard taunted it would be a different story.

They could reverse the nerf to intimidation for pve, so sentinel could achieve very solid burst damage, but it still would lack the tanking solution. Less the capstone allowed sentinel to ignore the dr cap, but then unstoppable would wear off and it'd die anyway.

So the most likely thing is that it should just be treated like damnation, as an extra damage sponge for the dps, if there ever any need for a second threat generator in a dungeon when we're moving away from the glorious add fest boss fights. Damage problem is easy to solve for sentinel.

I tested sentinel in cn, to see if I was able to survive at all and I was actually surprised how good it was with all healing insignia bonuses. My only problem was holding/taking aggro at all. Is there really no way of doing this atm ?

icyphish · February 2017

I have tanked 3man FBI with my GWF with 0 death on any boss fight. So this is definately doable. I had around 180～190k HP with 45% deflect or so, 45%dmg resist and I think 13～14k defense. Just need to ensure u use daring shout and always stay in DC's divine shield while tanking, you will be fine.

schietindebux · February 2017

But I guess you did so being IV Destroyer ICY?
I run with a GWF , also PVP destroyer @crazyy.. and he had no issues to tank orcus, even not being setup for a tankrole, but he was 4k and 180/190k HP (wich is easy to obtain these days due to new 50k HP armor)
I gonna give it a try with my 2.7 GWF. ON paper feats like Grudge style Intimidation and master at arms look pretty good tbh., but maybe it´s a waste of retraining token.... missing too much for tank setup.
Biggest problem is no Determination = no unstoppable
In case I want to tank I need to chain unstoppable, looks like being hard for an instigator.

wilbur626 · February 2017

icyphish said:
I have tanked 3man FBI with my GWF with 0 death on any boss fight. So this is definately doable. I had around 180～190k HP with 45% deflect or so, 45%dmg resist and I think 13～14k defense. Just need to ensure u use daring shout and always stay in DC's divine shield while tanking, you will be fine.

How do you hold aggro and what build do you use?

ghoulz66 · February 2017

icyphish said:
I have tanked 3man FBI with my GWF with 0 death on any boss fight. So this is definately doable. I had around 180～190k HP with 45% deflect or so, 45%dmg resist and I think 13～14k defense. Just need to ensure u use daring shout and always stay in DC's divine shield while tanking, you will be fine.

Being 4k and having a dc monitor you at all times isn't really proving your case about it's viability. That's simply not realistic to assume you'll always have a dc with you and be near BiS range.

Same way high end cws brag about soloing T2s.

schietindebux · February 2017

So there is a video to prove or not, if a GWF can tank FBI with an OP in his team, no AA, and he should be < 4k IL?

I respecced my <2.9k GWF today into sentinel. He is not updateded to actual Boons/content and runs purple equip in all slots, "no-orange-setup" and no AA.
You can tank T1 and T2 stuff , only Orcus is hard work having 140k HP, but it is doable, even that fight lasted a while and he went 2 times to the ceeling.
I needed to buff all my defense stats as far as I could, but being low on Lifesteal and HP this is pretty uncomfortable.
Beside the fact that my dps is more than <font color="orange">HAMSTER by sacrificing that much stats and every Hunter using mark and GWF using daring shout steels my aggro.
So the only way to get this done is being near BIS, and having high HP and hdps i guess, and by that destroyer is the better tank than sentinel i guess, since he gains much more determination and tem HP.

icyphish · February 2017

yes I use just my normal Speed Demon pvp build, IV destoyer, did not really invest into tanking other than changing the class feature to Bravery formore deflect and another class feature that increases ur DR when below 50%HP, oh and also changed mount bonus for more Deflect rather than Armpen. I am not sure if this is doable for 3k GWFs, but at 4k its definately possible. However, I do think OP/GFs can tank better, its just that for these contents, a GWF tank at high ilvl can do just fine too.

nickjdowe · February 2017

It can be done, at near BiS but you'd be giving up way too much to pull it off. I tried with mine several times just for fun. Changed all my DPS companions out for tank style companions, all self healing insignia bonus abilities like Champions Return, Barbarians revelry and so on, legendary drowned set, Trans Feytouched for the incoming damage reduction, 30% Lifesteal, 175k hp, max DR, 58% deflect, weapon artifact power switched to wicked strike/bravery, and a few others things mentioned above oh and switched up all my boons to deflection and heals. It worked, I could do it, but it's really not because of Sentinel path. Having all of those things on a Destroyer made me just as tanky and brought me to my current build. Really, the only things worth taking in sentinel to make you a tank are the threat generation and the first 15 points you would normally take to get to the mark and countless scars feats. Threat generation can be done with the charging bull ring, a companion, and big DPS. The extra DR from the capstone and other feats allowed me to switch to Silvery for the deflection I needed. It's a goofy build and you do almost no DPS which sucks. To be honest, even with all this I had trouble at the beginning of combat before I could get everything to proc, like the start of the Orcus fight. In short it's really not worth it, I only got to test it with little success because I had the ilevel and the items to test it. I did learn a lot from the testing which I use on my Destroyer SM build. I now have the DPS of a Destroyer and survival of a tank. (Minus the aggro.. I dumped all the threat generation) I'll run with an actual tank like an OP or a GF to soak up some damage and I legitimately can not be killed.

To sum up all that for those who skipped 90% of this post, SENTINEL is pointless. None of those feats will make you a tank and you will just nerf yourself into the ground.

schietindebux · February 2017

I used Sigil of GF to take those first hits from Orcus, but you are right.
My low level GWF looses threat too easy, despite those feats like intimidation.
DPS is awefull and you don't protect or buff the party like my GF can do...wasted.

treesclimber · February 2017

No, to test viability of classes i usually use the same techniques, damage non based on you or based partionally on you, for example my DC righteous, even considering fire of the gods 5/5 constituting 40% of all damage of the DC my honey badger buffed in all ways possible will compose 70% of all my damage (DC + Honey b) against single target, there are other things like magistrate patience (that has been reworked this module and will be ticking for 3,3%*4, instead 2,5*4 and be buffed by effectivness on target) that will make up probably 6-7% of all sentinel damage, you could dive 3 feats into destroyer to get mighty blade or student of the sword(ibs one i think), one buffs intimidation the other buffs ibs, both buff regardless if debuff cap on target is reach or not, use a symbol of water, honey badger, magistrate patience and consideration, fully offensive boons, venom/poison active bonus(none are worth on this case) and you will still be smoked by a destroyer. Anything above 80% DR will be a waste, to this also the gwf base stats count (DoT resist, AoE) so the best you could do is fully invest in HP and deflection, not by investing in constitution because it's a waste of a stat but by equipment,with for example 230k HP you would be abble to tank orcus(even without a tank, sentinel has passive agrro production), that is the main gwf problem in the game.....but in the end IT IS NOT WORTH, expect to do at max 60% the damage of a destroyer with everything i said above.

schietindebux · February 2017

Sentinel 60% of a destroyer?
Destroyer classfeature feated + destroyer capstone allone are 46%+50% plus damage. Executioner style on top and you will deal like less than half of a destroyer using the same setup i would say.
My DPS (2.9GWF) was so awefull since i sacrificed tons of stats to get to 80%DR and 50% deflect, using trans Feytouched and a more or less maxed companion, I would say I dealt like 5 times less dps than my crit/vorp setup or worse....
Doing so I can´t deal enough dps to hold aggro against heavy hitter and things like mark from Hunter and DS from a dps GWF, aggro ping pong guaranty, no way to taunt/spot target.

treesclimber · February 2017

Dont do x*y*z/x*y = z there are many other things to consider. And 60% in the best of the cases, dont take it by general rule, in single target it will drop to around 35% and dont forget 1 thing stacking 10k recovery in endgame will probably reduce your damage by 6-7% but cut your cooldowns a lot (50% or something near).

PS: when i said no in my first post i was answering to wilbur.

ghoulz66 · February 2017

They really need to reverse the intimidation nerf. The tree was doing pretty well back then. Just cut pvp effectiveness by a chunk. They already done such things already so it's freakin possible.

The easiest solution to fixing the damn tree.

armadeonx · February 2017

Thing is GFs and OPs aim for 95% DR. OPs rely on other powers to obtain 95% (Divine Call and CoP) and GFs go for it via gear but they also rely on secondary mechanics on top of this - OP temp health & GF shield providing a separate layer of 80% DR. Orcus will still 1 or 2 shot someone at 95% DR if they don't have their secondary layer up as they will take up to 160k damage per hit.

For Sentinel to work they'd would need to adjust it to allow GWF's to gain temp health like a pally, especially as it doesn't have a shield. Unstoppable could be adjusted to allow this but they'd also need a threat multiplier - the prot pally gains x5 threat as a base mechanic whereas the GF uses Mark.

I'd really love the dual spec system they are working on to allow two sets of feat choices as well as power loadouts, it would enable players to switch setups in parties that are having problems and give us much more flexibility.

nickjdowe · February 2017

Omg would I kill for dual spec! Right now I just do it with my companions. DPS build = Run DOD rings and stack power crit, Tank Build = Con Artist with STIEN rings and stack Defense and Deflection. I swap to Bravery and stand at max DR cap and 60% deflection with crazy run speed lol. Once the AA nerf goes through I may keep the tank build as my DPS didn't really take a big hit. But back to the point of the topic, Sentinel is 100% not needed.

c3rb3r3 · March 2017

Dual Spec for what ? In the end, GF and OP will do 3 times better job with equal stuff ...

nickjdowe · March 2017

I agreed, I'm not saying dual spec for tanking. Just for the opportunity to run a different set up for other non favorable conditions. Most GWF drop countless scars for student of the sword to up the DPS of their build. It's a matter of a few points in feats to be moved around as well as boons. My build is meant to solo dungeons, however in a party I do less damage than a glass specc'd full DPS GWF. I'd like to be able to switch out of my solo build and have a glass cannon build for those times when groups need the super high DPS

fogcrow · May 2017

Hi all, lets try taking this in a more constructive direction. I´ve done a little experimenting on an alt, and still have some hope left that this could work. As others have pointed out, the GWF class doesn´t have party wide damage mitigation/redirection powers, so what we´re hoping to achieve is:
1. grab and hold aggro vs. non tank and non defender-comp allies. Since we only have threat multiplikators, no hard tounts, that involves dealing lots of damage.
2. survive the hits.

A few things I was able to (more or less) confirm:
The heroic feat increasing the efficiency of defense and armor class, and the part of sentinels aegis saying it increases the efficiency of defense seem to work(have tested both together, not seperately). But, and thats a big but: their effect doesn´t show on the char screen. So to avoid wasting stats we need to switch on combat log and get something to hit us in order to see how much DR we really have.
Something I haven´t tested yet and hope one of you can answer: do these feats only amplifiy the usefulness of "base" defense?

The bonus DR from sentinels aegis while unstoppable is not a seperate layer of mitigation.

Now a few more questions:

Does "living wall", like the corresponding GF feat, secretly also boost the DR of the GWF himself, and if yes, does it give 5% or 10%?

What is the formula for the temp HP from activating unstoppable?(or if you don´t have the exact formula: what does it depend on?)

ghoulz66 · May 2017

Heh it sure as hell won't do squat in MSP or FBI in it's current state. The capstone needs to do MORE than slap on the plain old damage resist, it needs to be separate from DR like a mini GF guard. The moment you draw agro from a mob if you're able to, you're simply dead in a couple hits all at once. All this path does is let you hit the DR cap with zero investment. Hell a damn templock can manage to pull agro, they can tank better than this sad excuse for a tree.

A destroyer can already hit the DR cap, or close in most cases. Other than deflect, it becomes obsolete.

treesclimber · May 2017

1st one.....i don't know, well it's working with boons but i don't know where i left my testing bondings xD.

Sentinel Aegis gives normal DR, so 80% it's useless.

Living wall also gives the GWF full time 10% DR;

I don't know the formula but it's something really easy to cap:

Me only with 30k power only: 48,8k temp HP
Me fully buffed with HD, Destroyer and destroyer purpose stacks: 49k temp hp
However with 15k power i get 32k out of 133k (different character)

So practically all GWF will get this buff fully even without damage multipliers.

kalinthar · May 2017

I wouldn't say that the tree is dead. I just used Sentinel and spent two days grinding with an alt doing the Illusion skirmishes. Found myself always in the top two for damage and was surprisingly tanky. The key I found was not using threat to get aggro. I know that sounds counter-intuitive but the big issue for me is getting and keeping Combat Advantage through marks.

I went Iron Vanguard for the at will to put a mark on whatever was nearby. Once marked, it gave me combat advantage and because I had marked things, it supported the team by damage mitigation, the rest of the build was critical damage based. Try using Combat Advantage as a basis for damage and don't worry about threat.

Rotation is dead simple; use the at will to put a mark on it; come and get it to bring the mobs in; knock things down and the healing capstone encounter power to heal up. You won't knock all things down but for the minions it was very useful and greatly helped the wizards and clerics when they were getting blobbed.

Slam gets activated as soon as its up. Weapon Master and Destroyer slotted.

I wasn't looking to top the damage boards but I found I was doing respectable damage. And was tanking in the top two. After hitting level 50 did a Master level Illusion skirmish twice and was still doing respectably. Wizard in one team was uber specced and did enormous damage but I was second for damage and second for damage received. When I found myself with GF's in the higher level skirmishes- I was putting marks on things and their ITF was an awesome buff for me. Very complementary.

I will get an owlbear cub to up the damage. Other key pets are the War Boar, Blink Dog, Con Artist or Sell Sword with the Fire and Air Archon.

Survivability seemed fine; damage seemed okay. I will wait and see how it goes with the more difficult dungeons but as a supporting tank role I think the build appears to be working fine. Its a medium damage tank and medium damage dealer, just as I expected.

Soloing missions was very easy, but as I have done the mission runs over twenty five times; I expected them to be.

GWF sentinel tank possible?

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