Bonding being seen as a must?

demonmonger · February 2017

So last night I was playing on my 4100 item level trickster in castle never, and everything was going perfect. We had two tricksters, one paladin, one great weapon fighter, and one cleric.

I was using a full crowd control setup to keep the party alive then instant killing demons with the special boon that allows it.

We made it to the first boss, talgath the undying or something like that.
Everything was fine and dandy, until the super dps tr died. He instantly said my build sucks and raged on me saying use bonding. I responded I don't have bindings rank 12 nor do I need them. The whole party died and I was left soolong the boss.
To make a long story short the paladin got jealous of my survivability, and the trickster got upset because he screamed at me to go buy bindings and I said no thanks.

Then someone tried to vote kick me...(it was the tr) my damage was 36 million second highest only to the other trickster who had close to double my damage. (This was because he was using higher damage aoe spam skills that did not offer control, plus his bindings rank 10 or 11, plus he had purple relic weapons)

Everyone in party said it would not be wise to kick me, but the bonding tr kept trying and was screaming again for me to open auction house and purchase bindings rank 12, even though he had rank 10 and 11s.

So on the way to the second mini boss this tr died again. Guess what happened next... he blamed his death yet again on me not having bindings and held up everyone by screaming and trying to vote kick me.

Eventually he left. Mind you I was secoND in dps. He had 68 million damage, I had 42 million damage and the great weapon fighter has 7 million damage. Yet still somehow it's my fault he died and that things were not perfectly smooth.

So we beat the second mini boss, made it to orcus, then a hunter ranger joined the group. He was also a bonding user... as we fought orcus... everyone died but me again... the hunter ranger said we need more dps and that he doesn't use ranged attacks and left the group. So there I am soloing orcus.... LA LA LA and a Cotrol wizard joins the group.

This control wizard also was a bindings rank 12 user. I asked if they wanted to reset or let me solo orcus... they said let's reset.

Now we all go in again... everyone die's but myself and the control wizard. Orcus dies and we thanked the cw for being the only bindings rank 12 user that didn't complain, cry, or quit because I was not a bonding rank 12 user.

So can anyone tell me why the majority of bonding's users are trying to say it's the only way to play and refusing to play with other dps players that don't have bondings slotted?

I am all ears....

(Forgive the spelling issues my phone keeps changing words and punctuations)

solbergx · February 2017

I have a 3.1k IL CW renegade and when i play i have seen many times others CW who are pure dps, kiling everything and beeing #1 on paingiver and when we get to the boss they die so fast!
I just think that instead of spending hours of playing the game and learning they just pay with cash and buy everything so they have no idea how to play and all the things you learn the hard way

kolatmaster · February 2017

Well to start, your statement, "the majority of bonding's users are..." is only relevant to the case study you presented, and not in any way statistically relevant to all NW users on PC/Xbox/PS4.

That being said, those guys who were 'complaining' are simply whiny nobodies that you should honestly just put on ignore, because they are asinine, and not worth your time. Sure the situation sucks, and was annoying, but end of the day they are not worth your time. So keep playing the way you want to play, and ignore the idiocy of others!

demonmonger · February 2017

Just sucks when these players constantly try to kick you just because don't have bondings... some even kick you right before boss dies to prevent you from getting anything. Even if they are the ones dead and you are working your butt off to make sure victory happens...

santralafax · February 2017

I switched to bondings under duress--I preferred augments. But the devs did the opposite of nerf bondings when they re-worked them. Myself, I never try to micro-manage others' equipment and would have trouble with anyone in a party like the super-dps thief you described.

demonmonger · February 2017

Cyber bullying is a federal crime.
Bonding bullies can do what they please most of the time because the party feels they will suffer more without their presence...

Unknown · February 2017

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kgatorg · February 2017

I use 3xr12 bonding, I have 2 sets, working on a 3rd, that I share among 8 characters, 2.6-3.5k. That said, bring what you got and I will happily play with you.

mentinmindmaker · February 2017

I never say yes to votekicks except in very special circumstances(extended afk etc). Everyone has the right to play the game and to not have their lives negatively affected by me. Which does not mean I sometimes am VERY annoyed with people around 2k doing T2 dungeons where they have no business whatsoever

When that is said: The sad fact is that the difference in performance with and without r12 bondings is huge. Really huge. So if you want to contribute your part in the dungeon runs and not leech xp and loot, r12 bondings has sort of become mandatory.

Bondings could do with a small nerf.

kangkeok · February 2017

I played on my 2.5k HR with ioun stone a few time with etos. Never gets complain so far. I m guessing its the party member that u are with. Either they are the whinny type or the one that go along with whatever the party got. Or maybe i m just lucky.

neirgara · February 2017

Bondings are better than an augments. But that does not mean, that you can not do good work without.

I have seen many players with good builds an augmented companions, who cut through CN mobs like a hot knife through butter. Bondings are not a necessity, especially not there.

You item level, your control setup, you high damage rating and your high survivability are a sign, that you were the one, who carried the group.

My guess is, the other TR could not cope with the fact, that you were a better player than him (considering he died several times, while you actually were the one, who kept everyone alive), or that he was not as good, as he hoped. There are these kind of players out there. Also there are some, who will not accept you in a pug group, if you do not use bondings. But those are not many, and with your GS they probably will make an exception.

Thank you by the way, for being willing to sacrifice a small amount of damage for more control. As a main tank I appreciate every player, who helps me with my task to keep a group of suicidal maniacs alive.

Unknown · February 2017

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urabask · February 2017

demonmonger said:

So last night I was playing on my 4100 item level trickster in castle never, and everything was going perfect. We had two tricksters, one paladin, one great weapon fighter, and one cleric.

I think part of the problem here is that you're 4.1k which means you've got enough AD to spend on armor kits, high level utility enchants and a high level armor enchant but apparently not on bondings. It basically screams that you're taking some sort of principled stance against them for no reason.

demonmonger said:

We made it to the first boss, talgath the undying or something like that.
Everything was fine and dandy, until the super dps tr died. He instantly said my build sucks and raged on me saying use bonding. I responded I don't have bindings rank 12 nor do I need them. The whole party died and I was left soolong the boss.
To make a long story short the paladin got jealous of my survivability, and the trickster got upset because he screamed at me to go buy bindings and I said no thanks.

Honestly this sounds like you're leaving a lot of the story out. The pattern for all of the bosses in CN is that the tank holds aggro and DPS just burns the boss down. There's no room for survivability to even matter if the tank is doing his job. Also, the idea of an OP being jealous of the survivability of a TR is ridiculous and you know it. OPs have enough suriviability at 2.5k that they shrug virtually everything in the game off.

On the other hand the first two boss fights don't even need a tank because the bosses don't hit hard enough or you can easily dodge most of their attacks. Basically a terrible party can cakewalk all the way to Orcus. The problems you'll face will all be related to support classes. It's usually going to be your tank not holding aggro or dying at Orcus. So either your tank is poorly built (not enough arp is the usual culprit here) or has no idea how to play his class. Your healer can mitigate this a bit but that will mean giving up some debuffs/buffs. But if your tank is able to stay alive for a few minutes the blame is on the DPS.

meirami · February 2017

I don't want to comment on the story because we don't know the other side of it, but it's never a good idea to make judgments based on a few bad apples.

On the other hand, I also don't see any harm in giving bonding runestones a spin if you like to experiment, especially since you seem well-geared and experienced. You could tap into a wider variety of pets and build options if you love that stuff, and if you end up still disliking them, you can easily sell them.

reg1981 · February 2017

They are BiS, yes. Are they necessary? No. I have 3 R12s, sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't. I enjoy a challange so lots of times I run without them. Like you my IL is about 4,100-4,200.

That TR should have been a smash button GWF by the sounds of it lol He doesn't have the skill to stay out of the HAMSTER and keep himself alive. That's not on you, that's on him. If he can't tuck and roll outta the way for an orcus hit then he needs to learn to dodge.

This argument came up with the pally bubble, people will and have forgotten how to dodge. The same holds true with all the new stats we are dropping on our toons! SH boons, Insignia, Bonding, Avenger Gear, all that just makes survivability so much better that people still don't know how to dodge. They want to face tank everything and blame someone else when they drop.

Don't let it bother you because it'll probably come up again...

demonmonger · February 2017

@urabask only thing left out from first boss fight was that the boss kept killing the gf and paladin with the tractor beam that pulled them together. They didn't have the speed to pull away.. and they were standing too close to each other constantly.

araxelven · February 2017

demonmonger said:
@urabask only thing left out from first boss fight was that the boss kept killing the gf and paladin with the tractor beam that pulled them together. They didn't have the speed to pull away.. and they were standing too close to each other constantly.

Whatever happened, I have a hard time taking you story at face value. If the tank kept dying it's certainly not your fault, why were they harping on you for that?

Besides, what's wrong with using bondings? Like it or not, they are a core element of this game. Don't get me wrong, I do thing they are definately overpowered, but now the more difficult content is balanced to that level of power, regardless of you iLevel. 4k doesn't, mean a thing if you aren't built properly, and I get that your teammates could be insulted that you seem to favor appearances (item level) over effectiveness (bondings). A 3k TR with R12 bondings (like me) will outperform a 4k TR with an augment 100% of the time, skill aside.

For the record I stayed away from bondings for a long time because they seemed to gimmicky, and people wanted their companions to dies on purpose, but this has been fixed for a long time.

EDIT

While I would never condone rudeness and and almost never inspect people I'm running with, if you ADVERTISE yourself in LFG or other channels as a "4k TR" and choose not to use bonding stones, I certainly undertstand that people would be angry. It's like make a profile on a dating site saying you're a pro athlete when you've played three games of A-class baseball five years ago. It may be technically true but it's still misleading.

mysticmarks · February 2017

Aight.. here's the issue. You used to be forced to get an ioun stone to achieve end game numbers, so they gave us bonding WHICH has made the use of ALL companions viable. HOWEVER, Augments are still fully viable. There is a rough turnover point now between 100-140% augmentation to bonding. If you have 3 greater bonding stones, that's basically the flip point. Balancing your numbers is a bit more tedious, as you must be actively in combat to see what you can stack numbers out to. Prior to bonding, anything but ioun stones were essentially just companions to collect. Augment stones can STILL be great as they stay at EXACT STABLE NUMBERS and CAN NOT DIE. As to your initial post though, YES. New end game DOES force bonding stones. I can warp numbers on an ioun stones stats to above its standard %, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to achieve 285% stats recieved through 3 rank 12 bondings. I have been studying the change for some time. I believe the final answer is raise ioun and other augments from 100% at rank green and scale up to 200% augment at legendary. Then adjust bonding again to 100% per stone at rank 12, 90% at rank 11, 80% at perfect, 70% at greater, 60% at mid, and 50% at lesser. This change would allow all players to build both bonding or direct augment builds in the range of each other allowing burst performance or stable slightly lower cap numbers. So a slight buff to bonding as is, and a huge buff to ioun stones to pull them into alignment again. THAT fixes it going forward.

On another note.. i remember in beta everyone screaming "buy an ioun stone!" and I.. bought the first Ghost on Beholder shard before we merged into dragon. ...THEN i ran around for a week and let my ghost posess and kill every target dummy in every instance of PE. ..best.. bug ...ever. *sniffZ*.. ahhh the good ol' days.. ;D~

mifiisu · February 2017

I friggin loved my cat (still do), but seeing that I already had the fire archon before the changes and some bondings laying around that I could update (I am not even remotely close to running with R12s) I did make the switch.
Though I do switch back to the cat occasionally because its easy to stack very particular stats on an augment just for fun and because it doesn't draw unwanted aggro.

I've had it happen to me before that someone random inspecting me starts giving me "advice" on how to play my char. Back in mod 7 I believe. Patronising, but most of them meant well and they weren't to know that I prefer survivability over max DPS and had a particular race back then for RP reasons.

I'd never dream of kicking anyone just because they didn't have the appropriate pet or r12 bondings O_O.

baronstragen · February 2017

Bondings are expensive and you do not need them to do any of the content in this game, except maybe FBI - but that's a hamster show in it self. FBI has been bugged since it came out, you can have 100% everfrost resistance and you take the same damage as if you had 0%. But I digress. I've run augments since mod 2, and switched to bondings just recently and they are not rank 12. My OP tank still uses the augment, because I find companions get in the way and I'm there to tank, not outdps anyone. Just my take on the situation. Feel free to call on me for a run anytime. @baronstragen.

demonmonger · February 2017

I chose not to buy into bonding because everything that has ever performed too well eventually has been nerfed.

When regeneration worked in combat I made all of my regeneration artifacs mythic to max regen. Guess what happened? Regeneration was changed to not work in combat anymore.

Shadow demon was bis companion in pve able to hit for me in solo play 200000 critical damage on monsters. It was nerfed and it was not even as game breaking as bondings.

Many other things that were seen as standard and not 1/10th as powerful as bondings were nerfed.

Peaking chests was see as normal and it also got nerfed.

I spent more than $3000.00 us dollars on this game just to have all I desired that seemed and we were told functioned as intended changed.

Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool spend 3000 bucks and constantly changing my items companions and skills like we are in perpetual beta mode - priceless literally.

Unknown · February 2017

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mysticmarks · February 2017

I in fact, do use a ioun on my pally tank atm as well. It's all irrelevant to the initial post really though. The companion system is deeply tied to numbers now. And I make darn sure they work. MY suggested changes would balance all content at all lvls. Hopefully they get on it and fix the launcher along with the new content schedule. I'm tired of new MODs release and the same issues looming around.

araxelven · February 2017

demonmonger said:
I chose not to buy into bonding because everything that has ever performed too well eventually has been nerfed.

When regeneration worked in combat I made all of my regeneration artifacs mythic to max regen. Guess what happened? Regeneration was changed to not work in combat anymore.

Shadow demon was bis companion in pve able to hit for me in solo play 200000 critical damage on monsters. It was nerfed and it was not even as game breaking as bondings.

Many other things that were seen as standard and not 1/10th as powerful as bondings were nerfed.

Peaking chests was see as normal and it also got nerfed.

I spent more than $3000.00 us dollars on this game just to have all I desired that seemed and we were told functioned as intended changed.

Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool spend 3000 bucks and constantly changing my items companions and skills like we are in perpetual beta mode - priceless literally.

This... is a pretty bad explanation. How you spend your own money is your none of our business, but to spend 3000$ on this game (how? I dont even...) and refuse to get bondings when you obviously have enough accumulated wealth in the game to do so without spending a cent is baffling. Especially because unlike artifacts and companions, enchants will always be sellable if anything changes in the future.

I love my Shadow Demon and still use it after the nerf, but if I had to change it the net loss would only be about 1.3 mill AD (cost + upgrading to epic) for a companion that I've used for 6 months. That's about the price of a single R11 enchant, and if you're 4k I assume you have plenty of those.

Again, that's no excuse for other players being rude and for solo content you can do as you wish, but if you ADVERTISE yourself for GROUP content as a 4k TR but don't use bonding stones, I understand that others could feel that they were mislead.

mysticmarks · February 2017

I know many adults that have spent hundreds to thousands on this product. Don't deem how deep other pockets go. They repeatedly ban one of my friends since beta who dropped well over 100 dollars a week in lockbox keys before this game even had footing. It isn't foolish, it's supporting the game. The game that has now gone multiplatform. The engine and launcher need cleanup work and the whole thing needs a rebuild and recompile for a new stable tree. MANY, MANY, issues for the game still. Relax, give the input. They can and will adjust numbers. They've had way too high of a turn over for a live game studio over the last few years. It's also gone from public stock to a full buyout and private ownership. Whoever bought it out, loves the game and is listening too. When the guy/gal cutting the checks says, "do that" it's just going to happen(baring it crashing zen purchases).

minotaur2857 · February 2017

They really need to up augments so they're worse than bondings but not out of the same league, 190-200% would do it. I can't get teams other than in guild on my augment GWF that actually does more damage than my 3x12 lower geared TR.

urabask · February 2017

demonmonger said:
I chose not to buy into bonding because everything that has ever performed too well eventually has been nerfed.

When regeneration worked in combat I made all of my regeneration artifacs mythic to max regen. Guess what happened? Regeneration was changed to not work in combat anymore.

Shadow demon was bis companion in pve able to hit for me in solo play 200000 critical damage on monsters. It was nerfed and it was not even as game breaking as bondings.

Many other things that were seen as standard and not 1/10th as powerful as bondings were nerfed.

Peaking chests was see as normal and it also got nerfed.

I spent more than $3000.00 us dollars on this game just to have all I desired that seemed and we were told functioned as intended changed.

Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool spend 3000 bucks and constantly changing my items companions and skills like we are in perpetual beta mode - priceless literally.

The devs have already stated that they intend for bonding runestones to be better than augments though. Even if they do get nerfed they'll remain BiS.

magenubbie said:

araxelven said:
I get that your teammates could be insulted that you seem to favor appearances (item level) over effectiveness (bondings).
Excuse me? I think that after spending so much money/effort on getting a 4k IL character, you're absolutely free to spend some time on what you call "appearances". In fact, you're free to do that anytime you please. How dare you dictate what another player can and can't prioritize? There are plenty of reasons why the OP may not be using bondings. Less money to spend , less time to play no decent rings to use, all fair reasons for not having bondings and to stick with an augment. The mere fact you dare to assume that you know everything about someone and thing you have the right to judge them is downright disgusting.

Spare everyone the false outrage. Past 3.5k or so most of what you'd get to inflate your ilvl has no effect on how your toon performs. The "appearance" that araxelven was talking about is the 600 or so ilvl that means nothing and costs more than a set of bonding runestones. If he was really worried about nerfs he wouldn't have blown all his AD on armor kits and utility enchants.

baronstragen said:
Bondings are expensive and you do not need them to do any of the content in this game, except maybe FBI - but that's a hamster show in it self. FBI has been bugged since it came out, you can have 100% everfrost resistance and you take the same damage as if you had 0%. But I digress. I've run augments since mod 2, and switched to bondings just recently and they are not rank 12. My OP tank still uses the augment, because I find companions get in the way and I'm there to tank, not outdps anyone. Just my take on the situation. Feel free to call on me for a run anytime.

Well yeah, but that's because tanks just need to hit the DR cap and have enough recovery to go through their rotation effectively.

mysticmarks · February 2017

I remember when they made "item level" to replace "gear score" both of which are still "stupid to plan groups by". .. I school up guildies and not one of my guildies will suffer on any class at any lvl range. BUILD MATTERS. MOST class builds need to be structured to focus into paragon class options to achieve intended performance, NOT All, but most. Learn what skills you like, then reach out for advice. Reaching 4k+ and/or having 3 12 bondings is nice, but doesnt mean much if the build isn't correct to compliment playstyle and choice skills.

patcherrkm · February 2017

Here is the deal as simple as I can explain it. High end efficient pve requires certain things which I will list. This list is for high end content only. It's also only for efficiency. For instance; Yes you can do an MSVA without the optimal setup, but would you rather do it in 5 minutes or 30?

1. Striker companion with 3 offensive slots.
2. Three rank 12 bondings.
3. One tank in the party.
4. At least one buff/debug cleric.

A striker companion with rank 12 bondings nearly doubles my dps. It's expensive but it is well worth it. If you don't have bondings yet that's fine. If you aren't planning on getting bondings because "you don't need them." Well then that makes you ignorant and you would be booted out of my groups as well.

As you stated that you are over 4K item level and you still don't have rank 12 bondings I can only come to the conclusion that you have no clue how mechanics in this game work.

What's your character name so I know to never group with you?

mysticmarks · February 2017

patcherrkm said:
Here is the deal as simple as I can explain it. High end efficient pve requires certain things which I will list. This list is for high end content only. It's also only for efficiency. For instance; Yes you can do an MSVA without the optimal setup, but would you rather do it in 5 minutes or 30?

1. Striker companion with 3 offensive slots.

2. Three rank 12 bondings.

3. One tank in the party.

4. At least one buff/debug cleric.

A striker companion with rank 12 bondings nearly doubles my dps. It's expensive but it is well worth it. If you don't have bondings yet that's fine. If you aren't planning on getting bondings because "you don't need them." Well then that makes you ignorant and you would be booted out of my groups as well.

As you stated that you are over 4K item level and you still don't have rank 12 bondings I can only come to the conclusion that you have no clue how mechanics in this game work.

What's your character name so I know to never group with you?

Though total correct as it stands and extremely funny, they do need to fully align the companions. It was also a huge slap in the face to MANY people who bought augment stones. On another note, if you run into any players that "don't need" any bonding stones.. just go on and give em my handle @mysticmarks to mail them bad boys off to. ;D~

araxelven · February 2017

urabask said:

demonmonger said:
I chose not to buy into bonding because everything that has ever performed too well eventually has been nerfed.

When regeneration worked in combat I made all of my regeneration artifacs mythic to max regen. Guess what happened? Regeneration was changed to not work in combat anymore.

Shadow demon was bis companion in pve able to hit for me in solo play 200000 critical damage on monsters. It was nerfed and it was not even as game breaking as bondings.

Many other things that were seen as standard and not 1/10th as powerful as bondings were nerfed.

Peaking chests was see as normal and it also got nerfed.

I spent more than $3000.00 us dollars on this game just to have all I desired that seemed and we were told functioned as intended changed.

Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool spend 3000 bucks and constantly changing my items companions and skills like we are in perpetual beta mode - priceless literally.
The devs have already stated that they intend for bonding runestones to be better than augments though. Even if they do get nerfed they'll remain BiS.
magenubbie said:

araxelven said:
I get that your teammates could be insulted that you seem to favor appearances (item level) over effectiveness (bondings).
Excuse me? I think that after spending so much money/effort on getting a 4k IL character, you're absolutely free to spend some time on what you call "appearances". In fact, you're free to do that anytime you please. How dare you dictate what another player can and can't prioritize? There are plenty of reasons why the OP may not be using bondings. Less money to spend , less time to play no decent rings to use, all fair reasons for not having bondings and to stick with an augment. The mere fact you dare to assume that you know everything about someone and thing you have the right to judge them is downright disgusting.

Spare everyone the false outrage. Past 3.5k or so most of what you'd get to inflate your ilvl has no effect on how your toon performs. The "appearance" that araxelven was talking about is the 600 or so ilvl that means nothing and costs more than a set of bonding runestones. If he was really worried about nerfs he wouldn't have blown all his AD on armor kits and utility enchants.
baronstragen said:
Bondings are expensive and you do not need them to do any of the content in this game, except maybe FBI - but that's a hamster show in it self. FBI has been bugged since it came out, you can have 100% everfrost resistance and you take the same damage as if you had 0%. But I digress. I've run augments since mod 2, and switched to bondings just recently and they are not rank 12. My OP tank still uses the augment, because I find companions get in the way and I'm there to tank, not outdps anyone. Just my take on the situation. Feel free to call on me for a run anytime.
Well yeah, but that's because tanks just need to hit the DR cap and have enough recovery to go through their rotation effectively.

Yup. He even specifically bragged that he was 4k. The only way to reach that is to upgrade a bunch of enchants to R12 for millions of AD to gain a few stat points. I should know, I'm exactly there. It costs about 1.3M AD in RP, wards and marks to upgrade an enchant from R10 to R12. For 10 enchants or so on you character that's 13M AD, and the net gain is 3000 points in various stats. Bleh.

You could spend the exact same amount of AD to to buy outright 3xR12 Bondings and gain, in my case about 13,000 stats x3 so around 40,000 total stats points which don't register on your item level. Taking in consideration he has an augment already and it's still about 26,000 stats vs 3,000. The argument that the devs will eventually nerf this doesn't hold water because Bonding stones are still enchantments that are unbound just like the rest of this R12 and he'll be able to sell them as he wishes.

Obviously it makes sense for newer players to stick with augments for a long while. There is no logical argument against using them at 4k. Rudeness is never acceptable and solo playing allows him to do anything he wants. But if he wants to do group content and advertises himself as a 4k player, then he's misleading others. Simple as that.

Bonding being seen as a must?

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