Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
I posted this on another discussion, but it's my "feedback" since someone also commented about the old dungeon system...
Pre mod 6, and the dungeons "rework", the game was exactly this: go to a levling zone, finish it, gear up and challenge the dungeon of the zone to get even better loots. That's the reason why the last npc of each zone gives a quest to players enter those dungeons. And when you reached lvl 60, you could challenge the same old dungeons on it's "epic" version, so you could try and get purple gear sets that, IMHO, everyone loved. And guess what? AT THAT TIME WE DIDN'T NEEDED A KEY! We simply entered the dungeons, cleared all our way to the last boss and after we managed to defeat it, bang! our rewards was worth all that effort.
Since mod 6 I still don't get the reason to use keys. Ok, I can understand the reason behind the special ones, ie campaign keys, since they would reward players with "special" loots, but honestly... it's another waste of currency since the "bonus" chest rewards are just more junk. And why bosses drop peridots? really? I mean, we deafeated the queen of dragons, we banished the prince of demons, and what we find in their hoard? peridots, aquamarines... really? that's really stupid, it make no sense at all!
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
PC gets to be test subjects for any new changes and following reactions to them. Is it I wonder because we are biggest or even smallest group?
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,093Arc User
If they had fixed this issue in a timely manner when it first popped up, it wouldn't have become business-as-usual with the forum moderators telling players to "look first, it won't use up the key until you accept the contents."
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
This idea is not going to work. 2 CNs-1 Winter Sled that is useless and worthless. 2 Edemos- same old blue rings. Tiamat-blue man at arms that is useless. 1 POM-blue ring. nothing has changed except we now can get bound useless items. Not worth even campaign keys.
I'm done. This is just a chat program to me now. Come to zone. Lets whine together
Settle down folks. @kreatyve was merely thinking of STK's release date, which was November of 2016, where-as Underdark was one year earlier, same month - just weeks apart. This momentary misinterpretation still doesn't discount that 15k runs of a single dungeon is just unrealistic in the amount of time possible, especially considering the user claims to also run other dungeons too. In any case, we're digressing from actual feedback, which was the primary point of bringing the claim to light, that accurate and factual data and feedback should be given, not hyperbole and emotionally exaggerated examples.
Zeb, if you and Kim think that 15k runs of demo is unrealistic in over a year, then you clearly are out of touch with how people play this game. Many people in my guild have done thousands of runs. Majority would be getting towards the 10k-12k mark, and that's without even trying.
One of my fellow officers was keeping track of his demo runs. He hit 8 thousand back last May. Silver would have farmed around the same volume as him. Don't tell us that our evidence and proof is invalid when I barely see any of you in game to the times and extent we are.
One of the processes we are trying to streamline internally is aligning our Console and PC features for when Xbox One and PS4 versions catch up to the current module. Because Console has additional steps due to Certification, release dates must be decided in advance (which, of course, can still be delayed at the last minute because it’s game development and if something will go wrong, the other thing you didn’t expect will go wrong). With M10b releasing on Console on 1/17, we needed to include the key changes on that date. In an effort to continue providing our PC players Preview access to new features, we made the decision to put this change on Preview as early as possible given the chaos of December and Holidays. This meant that the earliest date available for preview was last week. We felt that, while one week was a short time, it was still more optimal than no Preview access.
As stated in the key change blog, we understand this update doesn’t address all the concerns and we have been absorbing all your feedback. Because design changes are a constantly evolving part of game development, we felt that stating that the preview would only last a week would create a sense of finality that we are not intending. We will continue to ask for constructive feedback, now with the benefit of larger volume of players interacting with the changes, and having both internal discussions on Key Changes/Chest Rewards and communicating with our players as best as possible.
Oh boy. Julia. We need to talk. Actually, not us exactly, but you and Andy. See how we look at the role of the CM is that you are here for us. You are our voice, since whilst as a collective (and on the forums) we are loud and at times a little cranky (alright, we can be maniacs at the best to times), when it comes to interacting with the devs, we are barely louder than a mouse. Please talk to Andy about how he had seen the role as CM and what the community sees it as. Because at the moment we have a disconnect.
Note: There are some devs that have awesome interactions here - I don't want anyone to think that all devs are bad (#NotAllDevs)
Julia, one of the wonderful fantastic things we were told with you joining Cryptic and not PerfectWorld is that you are right there in the thick of it. You would be present, in the dev's eyesight and able to tell them what the community was saying. But remember, you are our voice. And it's something that over the last year and a half, Andy had been a champion of. Even with having to put up with us screaming kids, he was still able to let the dev team know what we were feeling, what we were thinking.
We want you to be our champion, we want you to be our voice. Please, please, please remember that when you sit down with @mimicking#6533 and discuss the additional pages of feedback we are raising here.
Now, onto what you've presented here - if these changes were always going to be going onto the console port on the 17th Jan, then we should have been told that when the preview patch went up. If you had all said, "Hey, due to Winterfest and Holidays, and a prescheduled console release, this is the date it's going live - but we are going to be post patching in updates as we evaluate the feedback" - I would say a good 65% of the hatred, anger, tears, and loss of trust would not be found in this thread.
The multiple threads where we have provided feedback has ALL said consistently that these changes are awful. The core issue said by MANY people (literally, I'd spend a hour tagging them all here), is not that we dont have new shiny drops, but is the RNG of the current drops. We are solely reliant on RNG for near gear, new weapons. There is no "earn x amount of marks/seals and be able to buy". Whilst Mod 6 was a disaster, the ability to farm seals and then buy the gear you wanted, no luck or chance, that was good.
I'm being told of reports from my guild and alliance of dungeon drops barely changing since the patch. A couple of people got some new gear. Barely looking at 1-2% of people. I'm reading other forum posts, seeing screenshots of chest rewards actually looking worse than before. Plus our hard earned keys, the ones that actually take effort to make, consumed and what are we getting? The same if not worse.
We want to work with you guys, hell, the amount of additional people I saw go to preview in the last week shows you this. We care! A person earlier on made an excellent point, there is a lot of negative feedback. Negative feedback is a good thing, it shows we are still invested, that we are still fighting.
We still care about Neverwinter. Julia and Thomas - can you and the team show that you care about us?
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
The chests have and Accept or Decline on them. There was no sudden issue that popped up and took a long time to be dealt with...
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited January 2017
The mistake was they should do that change before mod 10.5. SO that way all had to start with the new changes their weapons upgrades. ATM we have the lucky ( i have too legendary mainhand offhand) and those do not have. Funny thing is : i did my weapons legendary because i didnt have nothing else to do. EVEN if you did the change before 59 level weapon epic vs 60 legendary we talk about maximum 1% damage difference.
SO for players didnt get it its ok 59 level epic vs 60 legendary not so much difference. IF CRYPTIC thinks poeple will pay for item level they are wrong.
As stated in the key change blog, we understand this update doesn’t address all the concerns and we have been absorbing all your feedback. Because design changes are a constantly evolving part of game development, we felt that stating that the preview would only last a week would create a sense of finality that we are not intending. We will continue to ask for constructive feedback, now with the benefit of larger volume of players interacting with the changes, and having both internal discussions on Key Changes/Chest Rewards and communicating with our players as best as possible.
My feedback will be me stopping playing and giving you money if the new loot table is not amazing. It is almost like you guys want to kill this game so you can move on to something new.
The key change has already impacted my game. I have keys backed up, and I have 14 dragon keys with the ability to buy more when I need them. A couple of the people I run with don't. So, we did CN once today instead of two or three we would normally do. I'm a DC - eSVA runs were fairly easy to find prior to today - today nobody is looking for DCs for eSVA. I did one pug FBI - even those calls in zone aren't as often. Loot, CN I got one +3 ring, not even a rank 8 but one person did get a nice caster head piece. FBI, I got a fancy 80% mount (and a sapphire, can't forget about the sapphire), nobody else got anything.
I played an alt for a while but I'm here, reading forums, because I don't want to do that. So, moral of the story - grouping is impacted and when that happens people get bored. Bored people find something else to occupy their time.
I'm not giving up yet, but I can see the writing on the wall and it's nothing I want to read - I like this game, I don't want to find another. If the key changes are here to stay can the timers, at least, be deep 6'd?
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited January 2017
Their idea was very clever actually, think about it, the artifacts drop rate is huge, ah is flooded with them and soon artifacts will sell by 20k or around that r5 enchants(bot enchants) will decrease greatly. So far i was alwasy expending my dailly dungeoun keys (because it's not worth not to expend for example on a necklace on elol chest just to save until i get a cuirass) so now i have the chance of droping something else, the special keys......are doubtfull in viability since companions/equipment doesn't have a fixed value but i dont have enough experience post patch to say anything anywway.
SO for players didnt get it its ok 59 level epic vs 60 legendary not so much difference. IF CRYPTIC thinks poeple will pay for item level they are wrong.
Lol no they aren't, i comented more or less the same thing in another topic and nope, we dont care for IL other people do.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,093Arc User
The chests have and Accept or Decline on them. There was no sudden issue that popped up and took a long time to be dealt with...
For the contents, yes. It was never intended, or should have been allowed to be continued, as declining the use of the key. The key is used on the chest to see the contents.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
What happened to the key price change? Did that get reverted because of the new drops? When the key change was first announced you said that the price of Legendary Dragon Keys would be permanently reduced to 250 Zen / 5 key, but it's still 300 Zen / 5 key.
It's a little premature to roll out the pitchforks.
Whether this change is good or not depends entirely on the new loot tables. I'm not aware that anyone has opened the thousand or two chests on Preview that are needed for a statistically significant sample.
Doom and gloom based on your expectations of what the change is going to be won't help anyone. The update is here. Try it out. See what loot you get. See what loot your party members and friends get. Share feedback based on experience rather than guesswork.
I'm quite sure the developers are open to fact-based discussion about the new system.
Seriously?
In the week or so this went to preview players have had the chance to see videos of those loot drops. Now, no one was expecting a Horn of Lostmauth per run, but it's clear in those runs that for the majority of times, the loot in these chests is not worth the chest used to get it. This is a factbased argument on why it is a bad system
Similarly, one doesn't need to run the content to know that binding loot to account is a terrible idea that devalues said loot. If I run these dungeons and get eventually 10 of the same companion that is bound to account, that companion becomes worthless even if I have alts. Eventually, their only destination is the discard pile, as repeat items that can't be traded will eventually hold absolutely no value. This is a factbased argument on why it is a bad system, and one that dispenses extensive testing. But wvidence for this was indeed given by bound to character lilends I gained from the winter festival. Not being able to trade an item i don't need makes it worthless.And while I don't mind it in a kind of casual giveaway, I sure as hell do mind if I have to grind hard for the chance to gain loot that has no valuable.
The new system is terrible, both on paper and in practice, and was a far cry away from the feedback we gave as players, and is a far cry away from the feedback based on the preview (and those who did try it), which, although we were promised was being taken into account, we discover that we weren't.
The sensible choice was to hold off, and do more testing on the preview server before finalizing. What do you think will happen when the communties at large see the keys that take 20 hours to create (plus time to grind materials) get gobbled up in exchange for a salvageable and a bunch of seals? Because we know for a fact that happens with this update.
Cryptic were already in very thin moving ice; this change is like a very angry yeti stamping on the icecracks.
Players overwhelmingly:
- want loot to drop from dungeon bosses at such a rate that running dungeons is a net gain in and of itself. As it stands, we gain as much by running cloak tower with our eyes closed in 6 minutes than we do running ELOL in 20. The content in chests should be extra gains to the reward that comes from beating a boss. To that end, the new gear that is being introduced is not bad, but doesn't provide incentive to end game players, and new gear which provides for more costumization of the classes beyond mere incremental stat increase is certainly very welcome. - Are displeased with the utterly absurd notion of RNG within RNG in the form of the underdark rings. A +5 ring that is a 1 in a million drop and cannot be traded in any way, shape or form is inherently worthless. - strongly dislike the idea that new loot should be Bound to account/character and are unconvinced by the argument that this is to preserve the auction house. On the contrary, these changes will result in the AH being killed both by the fact that these items becoming commonplace and our inability to sell surplus/undesired items. It also leads to unsatisfaction if we get a drop that's valuable to someone, but useless to our character. - want a streamlining of the key making process, whether it's via shortening the time required to make the keys or by the way which such materials are collected. As it stands, the same currency's being used to make the keys, upgrade our boons and grind our strongholds and there simply isn't enough to go around even if we subject ourselves to a tedious daily grind of running the same menial tasks over and over in the same maps, day after day. The underdark skirmishes provide a good blue print for that in that we can make the keys from what we gain by running the skirmishes. - are willing to pay for convenience (good examples: the campaign packs or the new level 70 character packs are nice tidbits of convenience that allow for a lot of saved time), cosmetics, to support new content and to reward your good work on the game. Good will goes a long way for loyalty of the consumers. They are far less willing to pay because the game is becoming too tedious to play otherwise.
These are all complaints and suggestions that were completely ignored. And it's not hard to see the changes made completely sidestep them, even without extensive testing (which i thought was what the preview shard was for?)
12 ish runs of CN today back to back. One new item. No orange rings or shard. Same basic junk. You just made life much much harder for people to get their stuff done as no one w/out keys will want to run. Farming for keys is about as awesome as relic hunting.
What happened to the key price change? Did that get reverted because of the new drops? When the key change was first announced you said that the price of Legendary Dragon Keys would be permanently reduced to 250 Zen / 5 key, but it's still 300 Zen / 5 key.
As part of this change we are also lowering the cost of the Zen store item “Legendary Dragon Key 5-Pack” from 300 Zen to 250 Zen.
@nitocris83@mimicking#6533 is this to mean that we won't be getting the price reduction? Was that compensation rescinded due to the wonderful new account-bound items you are introducing instead?
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
@confusedpoof zebular said: Settle down folks. @kreatyve was merely thinking of STK's release date, which was November of 2016, where-as Underdark was one year earlier, same month - just weeks apart. This momentary misinterpretation still doesn't discount that 15k runs of a single dungeon is just unrealistic in the amount of time possible, especially considering the user claims to also run other dungeons too. In any case, we're digressing from actual feedback, which was the primary point of bringing the claim to light, that accurate and factual data and feedback should be given, not hyperbole and emotionally exaggerated examples. @confusedpoof Zeb, if you and Kim think that 15k runs of demo is unrealistic in over a year, then you clearly are out of touch with how people play this game. Many people in my guild have done thousands of runs. Majority would be getting towards the 10k-12k mark, and that's without even trying.
This. And the condescending dismissive tone (backed by stone-wrong math) didn't help. By the way, Hyperbole and emotional exaggeration are common symptoms of chronic emotional abuse.
Many of us, players you represent, feel abused. We have invested years, money, our minds and our hearts in this game. We feel betrayed and abused, Zeb. You are our representative. How about an adjustment in your sympathy to condescension ratio?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Some constructive feedback/criticism to @nitocris83
1. The dungeon key change feedback was too short: - 1 week from notice and test on preview to live is not enough time. 2-3 weeks would have been better. - Communication could have been improved in advance, not retrospect. You lose good will otherwise.
2. There is a lack of transparency of the reward system: - drop rates, actual loot tables should be provided - you cannot expect the playerbase to compile percentages for the game - ideally this would include all chests from all dungeons
3. Overwhelming feedback on your official forums have been negative as it has not addressed what we have mentioned we want from chests: (a) +5 rings and legendary marks of the type that we want (b) a discrete and progressive method for obtaining them e.g. seals (c) not gated by excessive RNG. By excessive meaning I don't want to run hundreds of times without any progress. Pre-Mod 6 desired drops were in the 20-30 run range (e.g. for set bonus armor pieces) (d) making it worthwhile to expend a key at a minimum, give or take 5k AD (e) Bind on Equip items we can trade on the AH. (If everything is BtA or BtC and we get one of the newly added drops that we already have, it is like getting no reward at all, whereas other people may have benefited from it).
4. Make it worthwhile to expend a key at a minimum (expounding from above): - put in currency which work towards a goal: (a) i.e. seals for a visible marker of progress e.g. each gold Demo run grants 10 Demo seals, at 1000 you can choose a +5 ring of your choice at the Underdark vendor (a) campaign currency to lessen the cost of the next key if no high-value item drops - have a minimum return on the investment of a key in either: refinement stones, salvageable pieces, high-value coupons and currencies (as above) - having a healthy minimum observable return should encourage dungeoneering, gameplay time and perhaps even more key purchases as desired by the company
5. Engage with your playerbase some more, show us you are having fun playing (you have a control wizard as I remember) - Strumslinger and Akromatik before him used to play with us e.g. dungeon runs, tag, and give cool prizes (as an example) - maybe do a dungeon run with some of us, stream it, and analyse the rewards, this may get you closer to feel what the playerbase feels right now: (a) work your way to that key by completing campaign tasks with a few players, and see how long it takes us. Better yet, get some developers on board (b) run a dungeon a few times until a desired item drops in the group (as they are now broadcasted). Perhaps run a few mSVA as well - the reason I suggest this is because I also feel there is a disconnect between us (the players) and the direction of the game the developers envisage, as another player mentioned.
Also a bit more constructive criticism, I hope you don't take it harshly, but in your explanation about the dungeon key change going live, you used a lot of 'We' in your referencing decisions made by the developers about the change. Not only does this seem to put you squarely in the developer camp, but it seems to suggest there is an 'Us' camp as well. And it feels like the 'Us' camp have no champion and no voice at the moment. Just my two cents
Thanks for listening. Oh, and I hope you appreciate the dot points above.
Some constructive feedback/criticism to @nitocris83
1. The dungeon key change feedback was too short:
- 1 week from notice and test on preview to live is not enough time. 2-3 weeks would have been better.
- Communication could have been improved in advance, not retrospect. You lose good will otherwise.
2. There is a lack of transparency of the reward system:
- drop rates, actual loot tables should be provided
- you cannot expect the playerbase to compile percentages for the game
- ideally this would include all chests from all dungeons
3. Overwhelming feedback on your official forums have been negative as it has not
addressed what we have mentioned we want from chests:
(a) +5 rings and legendary marks of the type that we want
(b) a discrete and progressive method for obtaining them e.g. seals
(c) not gated by excessive RNG. By excessive meaning I don't want to run hundreds of times without any progress. Pre-Mod 6 desired drops were in the 20-30 run range (e.g. for set bonus armor pieces)
(d) making it worthwhile to expend a key at a minimum, give or take 5k AD
(e) Bind on Equip items we can trade on the AH. (If everything is BtA or BtC and we get one of the newly added drops that we already have, it is like getting no reward at all, whereas other people may have benefited from it).
4. Make it worthwhile to expend a key at a minimum (expounding from above):
- put in currency which work towards a goal:
(a) i.e. seals for a visible marker of progress e.g. each gold Demo run grants 10 Demo seals, at 1000 you can choose a +5 ring of your choice at the Underdark vendor
(a) campaign currency to lessen the cost of the next key if no high-value item drops
- have a minimum return on the investment of a key in either: refinement stones, salvageable pieces, high-value coupons and currencies (as above)
- having a healthy minimum observable return should encourage dungeoneering, gameplay time and perhaps even more key purchases as desired by the company
5. Engage with your playerbase some more, show us you are having fun playing (you have a control wizard as I remember)
- Strumslinger and Akromatik before him used to play with us e.g. dungeon runs, tag, and give cool prizes (as an example)
- maybe do a dungeon run with some of us, stream it, and analyse the rewards, this may get you closer to feel what the playerbase feels right now:
(a) work your way to that key by completing campaign tasks with a few players, and see how long it takes us. Better yet, get some developers on board
(b) run a dungeon a few times until a desired item drops in the group (as they are now broadcasted). Perhaps run a few mSVA as well
- the reason I suggest this is because I also feel there is a disconnect between us (the players) and the direction of the game the developers envisage, as another player mentioned.
Also a bit more constructive criticism, I hope you don't take it harshly, but in your explanation about the dungeon key change going live, you used a lot of 'We' in your referencing decisions made by the developers about the change. Not only does this seem to put you squarely in the developer camp, but it seems to suggest there is an 'Us' camp as well. And it feels like the 'Us' camp have no champion and no voice at the moment. Just my two cents
Thanks for listening. Oh, and I hope you appreciate the dot points above.
YES, give us a way to EARN it, not just leave it up to RNG... Even if you put this currency behind a keygate, can we EARN +5 rings? can we EARN these new marks that are required to refine our new weapons?
-Nacho Skymont Quixaltic Guild Leader GH20, pm for inv
On my devotion paladin i use to gain extra action points for having vow of enmity being active on a target, and you say that Bond Of Virtue generates Divine Call Power, when it really doesnt, it decreases it, so fix this trash. You've ruined 2 things on the damn paladin. Divine call barely goes above one bar, i dont get action points for HAMSTER anymore, and the dungeon loot still sucks.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
One of the processes we are trying to streamline internally is aligning our Console and PC features for when Xbox One and PS4 versions catch up to the current module. Because Console has additional steps due to Certification, release dates must be decided in advance (which, of course, can still be delayed at the last minute because it’s game development and if something will go wrong, the other thing you didn’t expect will go wrong). With M10b releasing on Console on 1/17, we needed to include the key changes on that date. In an effort to continue providing our PC players Preview access to new features, we made the decision to put this change on Preview as early as possible given the chaos of December and Holidays. This meant that the earliest date available for preview was last week. We felt that, while one week was a short time, it was still more optimal than no Preview access.
As stated in the key change blog, we understand this update doesn’t address all the concerns and we have been absorbing all your feedback. Because design changes are a constantly evolving part of game development, we felt that stating that the preview would only last a week would create a sense of finality that we are not intending. We will continue to ask for constructive feedback, now with the benefit of larger volume of players interacting with the changes, and having both internal discussions on Key Changes/Chest Rewards and communicating with our players as best as possible.
Is it possible to have this translated into comprehensible English please?
Having read this 3 or 4 times (and wondering whether I was reading a Sir Humphrey Appleby script from Yes Minister) I think the first paragraph is trying to say that "Because we want the key change live on X box on the 1/17, we needed to push this to PC live before then. Because we couldn't get this on PC preview until after xmas/new year - this only left us one week on preview"
???
As for your 2nd paragraph, maybe if you'd said all that when you put it on preview and got on the front foot, maybe there wouldn't as much angst. You knew this was going to happen, your not stupid. If you didn't, well you should have. As they say - prevention is better than the cure. idk seems pretty simple and straight forward to me, obviously not to you.
Imo 30% of the raging here is because of either poor communication which, rightly or wrongly is interpreted by us as being played for fools, or deceitfulness - which is playing us for fools.
Personally (a lot of ppl are going to disagree with me here), I couldn't give a hoot about whether or not you guys communicate, or listen or whatever. You're selling a product and if I like it I'll pay for it, if not I won't - that's pretty simple. But what I would prefer is, if you're going to tell us stuff, talk straight, not BS, even if the message is something we aren't going to like. I can cop that but there is nothing I dislike more than someone who is untrustworthy, deceitful, slimy, etc.
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Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Pre mod 6, and the dungeons "rework", the game was exactly this: go to a levling zone, finish it, gear up and challenge the dungeon of the zone to get even better loots. That's the reason why the last npc of each zone gives a quest to players enter those dungeons. And when you reached lvl 60, you could challenge the same old dungeons on it's "epic" version, so you could try and get purple gear sets that, IMHO, everyone loved. And guess what? AT THAT TIME WE DIDN'T NEEDED A KEY! We simply entered the dungeons, cleared all our way to the last boss and after we managed to defeat it, bang! our rewards was worth all that effort.
Since mod 6 I still don't get the reason to use keys. Ok, I can understand the reason behind the special ones, ie campaign keys, since they would reward players with "special" loots, but honestly... it's another waste of currency since the "bonus" chest rewards are just more junk. And why bosses drop peridots? really? I mean, we deafeated the queen of dragons, we banished the prince of demons, and what we find in their hoard? peridots, aquamarines... really? that's really stupid, it make no sense at all!
Better loots = more keys being spent = more itens on ah
It's ridiculous when you try to equip and alt and see those prices on ah. It's prohibitive.
PC gets to be test subjects for any new changes and following reactions to them. Is it I wonder because we are biggest or even smallest group?
One of my fellow officers was keeping track of his demo runs. He hit 8 thousand back last May. Silver would have farmed around the same volume as him. Don't tell us that our evidence and proof is invalid when I barely see any of you in game to the times and extent we are.
Note: There are some devs that have awesome interactions here - I don't want anyone to think that all devs are bad (#NotAllDevs)
Julia, one of the wonderful fantastic things we were told with you joining Cryptic and not PerfectWorld is that you are right there in the thick of it. You would be present, in the dev's eyesight and able to tell them what the community was saying. But remember, you are our voice. And it's something that over the last year and a half, Andy had been a champion of. Even with having to put up with us screaming kids, he was still able to let the dev team know what we were feeling, what we were thinking.
We want you to be our champion, we want you to be our voice. Please, please, please remember that when you sit down with @mimicking#6533 and discuss the additional pages of feedback we are raising here.
Now, onto what you've presented here - if these changes were always going to be going onto the console port on the 17th Jan, then we should have been told that when the preview patch went up. If you had all said, "Hey, due to Winterfest and Holidays, and a prescheduled console release, this is the date it's going live - but we are going to be post patching in updates as we evaluate the feedback" - I would say a good 65% of the hatred, anger, tears, and loss of trust would not be found in this thread.
The multiple threads where we have provided feedback has ALL said consistently that these changes are awful. The core issue said by MANY people (literally, I'd spend a hour tagging them all here), is not that we dont have new shiny drops, but is the RNG of the current drops. We are solely reliant on RNG for near gear, new weapons. There is no "earn x amount of marks/seals and be able to buy". Whilst Mod 6 was a disaster, the ability to farm seals and then buy the gear you wanted, no luck or chance, that was good.
I'm being told of reports from my guild and alliance of dungeon drops barely changing since the patch. A couple of people got some new gear. Barely looking at 1-2% of people. I'm reading other forum posts, seeing screenshots of chest rewards actually looking worse than before. Plus our hard earned keys, the ones that actually take effort to make, consumed and what are we getting? The same if not worse.
We want to work with you guys, hell, the amount of additional people I saw go to preview in the last week shows you this. We care! A person earlier on made an excellent point, there is a lot of negative feedback. Negative feedback is a good thing, it shows we are still invested, that we are still fighting.
We still care about Neverwinter. Julia and Thomas - can you and the team show that you care about us?
ATM we have the lucky ( i have too legendary mainhand offhand) and those do not have.
Funny thing is : i did my weapons legendary because i didnt have nothing else to do. EVEN if you did the change before 59 level weapon epic vs 60 legendary we talk about maximum 1% damage difference.
SO for players didnt get it its ok 59 level epic vs 60 legendary not so much difference. IF CRYPTIC thinks poeple will pay for item level they are wrong.
Make them refinable into the orange marks using all the junk rough gems that we also have filling our bags.
that makes spending zen on keys that give junk (atleast for SVA / MSVA) on end game content a little more palatable.
I played an alt for a while but I'm here, reading forums, because I don't want to do that. So, moral of the story - grouping is impacted and when that happens people get bored. Bored people find something else to occupy their time.
I'm not giving up yet, but I can see the writing on the wall and it's nothing I want to read - I like this game, I don't want to find another. If the key changes are here to stay can the timers, at least, be deep 6'd?
In the week or so this went to preview players have had the chance to see videos of those loot drops. Now, no one was expecting a Horn of Lostmauth per run, but it's clear in those runs that for the majority of times, the loot in these chests is not worth the chest used to get it. This is a factbased argument on why it is a bad system
Similarly, one doesn't need to run the content to know that binding loot to account is a terrible idea that devalues said loot. If I run these dungeons and get eventually 10 of the same companion that is bound to account, that companion becomes worthless even if I have alts. Eventually, their only destination is the discard pile, as repeat items that can't be traded will eventually hold absolutely no value. This is a factbased argument on why it is a bad system, and one that dispenses extensive testing. But wvidence for this was indeed given by bound to character lilends I gained from the winter festival. Not being able to trade an item i don't need makes it worthless.And while I don't mind it in a kind of casual giveaway, I sure as hell do mind if I have to grind hard for the chance to gain loot that has no valuable.
The new system is terrible, both on paper and in practice, and was a far cry away from the feedback we gave as players, and is a far cry away from the feedback based on the preview (and those who did try it), which, although we were promised was being taken into account, we discover that we weren't.
The sensible choice was to hold off, and do more testing on the preview server before finalizing. What do you think will happen when the communties at large see the keys that take 20 hours to create (plus time to grind materials) get gobbled up in exchange for a salvageable and a bunch of seals? Because we know for a fact that happens with this update.
Cryptic were already in very thin moving ice; this change is like a very angry yeti stamping on the icecracks.
Players overwhelmingly:
- want loot to drop from dungeon bosses at such a rate that running dungeons is a net gain in and of itself. As it stands, we gain as much by running cloak tower with our eyes closed in 6 minutes than we do running ELOL in 20. The content in chests should be extra gains to the reward that comes from beating a boss. To that end, the new gear that is being introduced is not bad, but doesn't provide incentive to end game players, and new gear which provides for more costumization of the classes beyond mere incremental stat increase is certainly very welcome.
- Are displeased with the utterly absurd notion of RNG within RNG in the form of the underdark rings. A +5 ring that is a 1 in a million drop and cannot be traded in any way, shape or form is inherently worthless.
- strongly dislike the idea that new loot should be Bound to account/character and are unconvinced by the argument that this is to preserve the auction house. On the contrary, these changes will result in the AH being killed both by the fact that these items becoming commonplace and our inability to sell surplus/undesired items. It also leads to unsatisfaction if we get a drop that's valuable to someone, but useless to our character.
- want a streamlining of the key making process, whether it's via shortening the time required to make the keys or by the way which such materials are collected. As it stands, the same currency's being used to make the keys, upgrade our boons and grind our strongholds and there simply isn't enough to go around even if we subject ourselves to a tedious daily grind of running the same menial tasks over and over in the same maps, day after day. The underdark skirmishes provide a good blue print for that in that we can make the keys from what we gain by running the skirmishes.
- are willing to pay for convenience (good examples: the campaign packs or the new level 70 character packs are nice tidbits of convenience that allow for a lot of saved time), cosmetics, to support new content and to reward your good work on the game. Good will goes a long way for loyalty of the consumers. They are far less willing to pay because the game is becoming too tedious to play otherwise.
These are all complaints and suggestions that were completely ignored. And it's not hard to see the changes made completely sidestep them, even without extensive testing (which i thought was what the preview shard was for?)
One new item.
No orange rings or shard.
Same basic junk.
You just made life much much harder for people to get their stuff done as no one w/out keys will want to run.
Farming for keys is about as awesome as relic hunting.
Not impressed.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1223956/dungeon-key-changes/p1 @nitocris83 @mimicking#6533 is this to mean that we won't be getting the price reduction? Was that compensation rescinded due to the wonderful new account-bound items you are introducing instead?
zebular said:
Settle down folks. @kreatyve was merely thinking of STK's release date, which was November of 2016, where-as Underdark was one year earlier, same month - just weeks apart. This momentary misinterpretation still doesn't discount that 15k runs of a single dungeon is just unrealistic in the amount of time possible, especially considering the user claims to also run other dungeons too. In any case, we're digressing from actual feedback, which was the primary point of bringing the claim to light, that accurate and factual data and feedback should be given, not hyperbole and emotionally exaggerated examples.
@confusedpoof
Zeb, if you and Kim think that 15k runs of demo is unrealistic in over a year, then you clearly are out of touch with how people play this game. Many people in my guild have done thousands of runs. Majority would be getting towards the 10k-12k mark, and that's without even trying.
This. And the condescending dismissive tone (backed by stone-wrong math) didn't help. By the way, Hyperbole and emotional exaggeration are common symptoms of chronic emotional abuse.
Many of us, players you represent, feel abused. We have invested years, money, our minds and our hearts in this game. We feel betrayed and abused, Zeb.
You are our representative. How about an adjustment in your sympathy to condescension ratio?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
A sample size of 5 says nothing about the loot table, but my first foray into the new system was satisfactory.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
1. The dungeon key change feedback was too short:
- 1 week from notice and test on preview to live is not enough time. 2-3 weeks would have been better.
- Communication could have been improved in advance, not retrospect. You lose good will otherwise.
2. There is a lack of transparency of the reward system:
- drop rates, actual loot tables should be provided
- you cannot expect the playerbase to compile percentages for the game
- ideally this would include all chests from all dungeons
3. Overwhelming feedback on your official forums have been negative as it has not
addressed what we have mentioned we want from chests:
(a) +5 rings and legendary marks of the type that we want
(b) a discrete and progressive method for obtaining them e.g. seals
(c) not gated by excessive RNG. By excessive meaning I don't want to run hundreds of times without any progress. Pre-Mod 6 desired drops were in the 20-30 run range (e.g. for set bonus armor pieces)
(d) making it worthwhile to expend a key at a minimum, give or take 5k AD
(e) Bind on Equip items we can trade on the AH. (If everything is BtA or BtC and we get one of the newly added drops that we already have, it is like getting no reward at all, whereas other people may have benefited from it).
4. Make it worthwhile to expend a key at a minimum (expounding from above):
- put in currency which work towards a goal:
(a) i.e. seals for a visible marker of progress e.g. each gold Demo run grants 10 Demo seals, at 1000 you can choose a +5 ring of your choice at the Underdark vendor
(a) campaign currency to lessen the cost of the next key if no high-value item drops
- have a minimum return on the investment of a key in either: refinement stones, salvageable pieces, high-value coupons and currencies (as above)
- having a healthy minimum observable return should encourage dungeoneering, gameplay time and perhaps even more key purchases as desired by the company
5. Engage with your playerbase some more, show us you are having fun playing (you have a control wizard as I remember)
- Strumslinger and Akromatik before him used to play with us e.g. dungeon runs, tag, and give cool prizes (as an example)
- maybe do a dungeon run with some of us, stream it, and analyse the rewards, this may get you closer to feel what the playerbase feels right now:
(a) work your way to that key by completing campaign tasks with a few players, and see how long it takes us. Better yet, get some developers on board
(b) run a dungeon a few times until a desired item drops in the group (as they are now broadcasted). Perhaps run a few mSVA as well
- the reason I suggest this is because I also feel there is a disconnect between us (the players) and the direction of the game the developers envisage, as another player mentioned.
Also a bit more constructive criticism, I hope you don't take it harshly, but in your explanation about the dungeon key change going live, you used a lot of 'We' in your referencing decisions made by the developers about the change. Not only does this seem to put you squarely in the developer camp, but it seems to suggest there is an 'Us' camp as well. And it feels like the 'Us' camp have no champion and no voice at the moment. Just my two cents
Thanks for listening. Oh, and I hope you appreciate the dot points above.
Quixaltic Guild Leader
GH20, pm for inv
Having read this 3 or 4 times (and wondering whether I was reading a Sir Humphrey Appleby script from Yes Minister) I think the first paragraph is trying to say that "Because we want the key change live on X box on the 1/17, we needed to push this to PC live before then. Because we couldn't get this on PC preview until after xmas/new year - this only left us one week on preview"
???
As for your 2nd paragraph, maybe if you'd said all that when you put it on preview and got on the front foot, maybe there wouldn't as much angst. You knew this was going to happen, your not stupid. If you didn't, well you should have. As they say - prevention is better than the cure. idk seems pretty simple and straight forward to me, obviously not to you.
Imo 30% of the raging here is because of either poor communication which, rightly or wrongly is interpreted by us as being played for fools, or deceitfulness - which is playing us for fools.
Personally (a lot of ppl are going to disagree with me here), I couldn't give a hoot about whether or not you guys communicate, or listen or whatever. You're selling a product and if I like it I'll pay for it, if not I won't - that's pretty simple. But what I would prefer is, if you're going to tell us stuff, talk straight, not BS, even if the message is something we aren't going to like. I can cop that but there is nothing I dislike more than someone who is untrustworthy, deceitful, slimy, etc.