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Dungeon Chart Adjustments

So as we all know our favorite chart the DPS classes look to when first starting this game The "paingiver" isn't exactly the most accurate source for our DPS measurement just a description of our damage lump for the dungeon. So i've been wondering why we haven't updated this chart to reflect DPS or Healing per second (hps), all it really needs is to be outfitted with is a formula to take overall damage dealt and divide it with overall time in combat, same equally for healing. I for one think this should be implemented so we can see our field of ability along with our average growth, as well this would be a good tool for the devs to get ideas where builds, powers, and classes lie in effectiveness.
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Comments

  • burndownxmas#7201 burndownxmas Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    So you can be blind to what your build can produce? I use the charts to some degree of seeing my build standing seeing as console lacks the usage of ACT.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    No. Because of the attitudes it causes.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • burndownxmas#7201 burndownxmas Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    Bit closed minded on it seeing as it can be beneficial for both yourself and devs in seeing overall placement of characters and help balancing, further it would rid the game of paingiver chasers as it'll stop those that rush ahead to rack big lump sum numbers for the end of the dungeon and force them to work with their team if they're hell bent on topping a chart.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    You can download act if you want to have more details on dps and such stuff
  • devlin#3775 devlin Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    You can download act if you want to have more details on dps and such stuff

    2/3 of the platforms that can play this game cannot download ACT, so that isn't the solution.
  • burndownxmas#7201 burndownxmas Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    As stated above, the console players kinda guess and go off guides for our builds and overall effectiveness so a revamp to the chart would be nice for DPS accuracy, unless they make an extra download for the consoles to have ACT; I'd equally be okay with this as well.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,176 Arc User
    Personally I think it would be better if this feature would be removed from game..
    Players look to paingiving, execution numbers and evaluate players commitments to party run. While ignoring facts that debuffing, tactical movements within field, also including CC effects are not calculated.

    This measurement system killing team gameplay. Since dungeon starts,, mostly players do is rushing to build as highest paingiver numbers they can.. Players brainlessly rush to group enemies, die, and latter complain about game balance or chat got red from messages like healer su**er,
    ========================================================================
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  • burndownxmas#7201 burndownxmas Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    Read above comments how this would prevent the paingiver rushers, them dying is a matter different all together along with blaming the healer which a reformed chart that shows average heal per second could help disprove their hype of blame game.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    How can you use this to see your build standing? The only way that works is if you run instances with the same characters in your party and they remain static. Which, somehow, I don't see other people not trying to improve their own characters.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    How can you use this to see your build standing? The only way that works is if you run instances with the same characters in your party and they remain static. Which, somehow, I don't see other people not trying to improve their own characters.

    When you run hundreds of times with same usual people it's extremely easy to roughly see how you are doing in comparison.
    With the OP suggestion it will be less skewed by who rushed to the mobs first and will be more accurate.

    Also not everyone changing spec, gear, or rotation every run.
  • burndownxmas#7201 burndownxmas Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    @micky1p00, thank you, glad someone understands what I'm saying here for what I want to attempt to achieve.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    test by the time takes to clear a boss. ALSO you have combat log.
  • burndownxmas#7201 burndownxmas Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    Yeah lemme log all my attacks while sifting through all the data my team, the boss, mechanics, companions, and adds put out add it up then take my stop watch and divide my totals so I can get that; or we could get a new chart that has a formula enacted to do this so I don't have to do it manually. Also why is everyone so against this idea which would help yourselves and the overall game?
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    @burndownxmas#7201 "why is everyone so against this idea which would help yourselves and the overall game?"
    Because it will NOT help everyone. Just a select few of HDPS or HDPS wannabees competing for paingiver. It irritates all the rest of us, ruins the fun in the dungeon for everyone except the two or three jerks in a pissing contest.

    The rest of us (especially support class) are sick of the "I'm paingiver, your DPS sucks" race. It leads to selfish play.
    Numbskulls sprinting ahead of the tank to get INB4 the competition then bragging about it. People not rezzing teammates so they can pull ahead on the scoreboard.
    We already have that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. And you propose more?
    D&D is supposed to be about teamwork. Co-operation. Strategy. Synergy. Everyone contributing in some meaningful way that contributes to the goal.

    @burndownxmas#7201 I sincerely respect that you want to improve your performance. OK. That's fine. There's an app for that. Advanced Combat Tracker. Enjoy.

    The atmosphere in NW is toxic enough as it is. Add more intra-party competition? Hell no.
    @greywynd said it best "Because of the attitudes it causes."
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    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • l0th4ri0l0th4ri0 Member Posts: 589 Arc User

    ... as well this would be a good tool for the devs to get ideas where builds, powers, and classes lie in effectiveness.

    I have to admit this part made me giggle a little bit.

    But seriously, add me to the list of ppl that would rather have all the charts removed. Calling for a bigger better e-peen meter is maybe not the best idea I've ever heard. A good measurement for how effective your build is? Easy. No charts necessary: Are you having fun playing? Did your team win? How smooth was the run? Did you die a lot?

    In the end, it is not a build so much as knowing the game that gets you through.
  • burndownxmas#7201 burndownxmas Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    @dread4moor I can tell you haven't read through all the posts or you just skim things and put your two cents in off a half gathered idea; otherwise you'd realize console can't get ACT and is the main reason I'd like a chart revamp, also I covered how this would improve team coheasion so just go back through and read again and you'll find it, further more I also explained how the chart revamp would work which <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over your teammates wouldn't help you as this "paingiver" part of the chart which would most likely get renamed to average DPS and it would show your average DPS through the whole dungeon crawl not some giant lump number which you brag about in the end.

    @l0th4ri0 I'm glad the idea of improving the game makes you giggle; people scream day and night in the game for balance and someone proposes an idea that could possibly help that. Also I'm just gonna throw a counter point on your build theory there, go ahead go make a tank class any of your choosing then just slop points a little in each category just make a messy but ineffective build then go try tanking Orcus with it and tell me how it goes. A strong build that has synergy within itself, along with knowledge, and lastly your team synergy get you through.
  • l0th4ri0l0th4ri0 Member Posts: 589 Arc User
    I guess you're new and my little joke about the devs using graphs or charts or actual data to make balance decisions sailed over your head.

    And to make a counterpoint to your counterpoint, take a very well built tank into orcus and put that tank into an inept player's hands and watch that tank do very very poorly. This game is not just math. In fact, most of this game can be conquered with a completely random build or so-called trash classes/specs. Try it sometime. Play a "non-viable" build and see how viable it actually is. Don't believe everything you read on the forums.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    @l0th4ri0 "I guess you're new and my little joke about the devs using graphs or charts or actual data to make balance decisions sailed over your head."
    Clearly over OPs head. But the rest of us got that reference.
    [Insert Captain America gif]
    OP also wants PC players to shut up because he is talking about console only...
    "[Don't] put your two cents in off a half gathered idea; otherwise you'd realize console can't get ACT "
    ... which means this post violates Forum rules by excluding format comments without a prefix:
    "PREFIX YOUR DISCUSSION TITLE WITH [PC], [XBOX], OR [PS4]"
    But even if OP ignores experienced player's opinions, the basic problem with this proposal is the same.
    In game charts do not improve the game experience for the team, just for a few individuals.
    The best NW theory-crafter and game - statistician ever was Kaelac @theosymphony . Even Kaelac, who set the NW data-analysis standard, in his "PvE Party Class Role Guide" dismissed the value of the scoreboard. He did not believe it added to team synergy or efficiency.
    Let me repeat that, OP. The man who invented NW theory-crafting said scoreboards don't help the team.
    But Kaelac played on PC. You don't want PC players opinions. Sorry, forgot.
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    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited December 2016

    @l0th4ri0 "I guess you're new and my little joke about the devs using graphs or charts or actual data to make balance decisions sailed over your head."
    Clearly over OPs head. But the rest of us got that reference.
    [Insert Captain America gif]
    OP also wants PC players to shut up because he is talking about console only...
    "[Don't] put your two cents in off a half gathered idea; otherwise you'd realize console can't get ACT "
    ... which means this post violates Forum rules by excluding format comments without a prefix:
    "PREFIX YOUR DISCUSSION TITLE WITH [PC], [XBOX], OR [PS4]"
    But even if OP ignores experienced player's opinions, the basic problem with this proposal is the same.
    In game charts do not improve the game experience for the team, just for a few individuals.
    The best NW theory-crafter and game - statistician ever was Kaelac @theosymphony . Even Kaelac, who set the NW data-analysis standard, in his "PvE Party Class Role Guide" dismissed the value of the scoreboard. He did not believe it added to team synergy or efficiency.
    Let me repeat that, OP. The man who invented NW theory-crafting said scoreboards don't help the team.
    But Kaelac played on PC. You don't want PC players opinions. Sorry, forgot.

    First:
    You know that you are shooting your own argument in the foot.
    The OP says the current scoreboard is not useful and propose how to change it.
    You try to argue against him by saying "Kaelec said that the scoreboard has no value".

    You do realize that by that you provide support for a scoreboard change. Any change.

    Second:
    The claim that consoles have no access to ACT is not discriminatory against PC player opinion. It's a simple fact that console players can't get the data PC players get using ACT, so the answer use ACT is irrelevant as counter argument for the OP proposal.

    Third, to your point:
    Even if the improvement is for the individual, what is wrong about it? As of now it is useless to the individual (shows who runs first to the mobs and not actual combat time). And useless to the group - per your own statement.
    The OP offers how to make it more useful to the individual, so it's at least useful in some way. So where is the problem? To the group there is no change, it's still the same non-useful chart (per your claim too).
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    I think it would be nice to make it a customizable interface, with various options to toggle on or off, or even to disable it entirely. That way a player coukd choose to only see the charts that they cared about (original paingiver, dps meter, kidneys harvested, etc...) or nothing at all. Frankly, I'd prefer the none options as none of the charts are relevant to a cleric really. I would at least like it if they didn't pop up a second time after opening the chest. Now I find myself hitting X after completing a lair from muscle memory to get rid of the popup.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • l0th4ri0l0th4ri0 Member Posts: 589 Arc User
    Semantics aside, if you got rid of the charts altogether it helps more than just having a different kind of e-peen worship. That was what the blowback to this idea from various posters was trying to get across, i think.

    I would like to point out that the OP at least had good intentions, which is more than we can say for a lot of the drama queens and exaggerators that inhabit the forums from time to time. :smiley:
  • jase2cooljase2cool Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 165 Arc User
    The chart does not promote team play it promotes individual performance...
    Be great if there a tab that measures party efficiency/ team play.

    Therefore is very competitive for dps which normally comes in 3 of them..
    Meanwhile tank/healer which normally not much competition as its normally one of each on average party.

    All it takes is one of the dps rushes in trying to out perform others ... the others dps will need to rush in to keep up to his dps / back him / picks him up.
    Tank will be left behind or struggling when he reaches the battlefield to gain back aggro.
    Healer will takes the blame dps dies or trying hard to keep them alive.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    I know, that some idiots use the charts to boost their ego and the result can be unreasonable.

    An OP tried to vote kick my renegade HV CW in a FBI run, bc he died more then the thraum CW running with current gear and did 50% less dmg. There are even BIS geared idiots, who dont get, that a 50% dmg boost for the party is better, then 50% more personal dmg.

    That being said, the charts are useful and should not get removed, IMO. Someone with a bit of understanding knows, that buffs and debuffs rule atm. No one in his right mind would kick the only DC, to get another GWF for more dps. I want to see, what ppl contributed to the run. I know the classes and their value as buff/debuff. I wont compare MOF rene CWs dmg with a SS thraum CW, but if I run with a random party the charts show, if the GF has a conqueror build or not, if the DDs have a PvE or a PvP spec and generaly, if ppl know how to play and how they are geared (IL shows max 50% of the relevant stuff) to some degree.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • spoomeister#9137 spoomeister Member Posts: 105 Arc User
    Perhaps the difference can be split here in a couple of feature suggestions:

    1. An option for someone creating a queue to turn off the charts, same way you can fine-tune what gets auto-picked-up vs. what gets offered to whole party.
    2. A playing style preference on your profile, similar to what XBox Live has. If you're set up as a 'casual' you won't see the after-game charts, if you're set up as 'achievement hound' or 'stat nerd' or something you do. And then in the background the PUG reinforcements logic tries to match with your playing style as much as possible.

    Honestly though the far and away best way to guarantee you're going to get a dungeon group that is compatible with your playing style is to be in a guild that is compatible with your playing style and do runs with them. Which, in an MMO, is pretty much how it should be.
  • burndownxmas#7201 burndownxmas Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    If you don't want to see the charts there should be an option to turn it off, that or just don't pop the menu up and look at it. Either way this could be a positive aspect for any class as you could really get in depth for things you could measure with end game results, such as support classes could have overall impact to DPS or defensive structure as well as up time of those buffs, then for tanking there could be average of aggro held. There are possibilities for this besides the DPS aspect of everyone measuring who swings hardest in the dungeon.
  • sundance777sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    The chart is handy on console as there is very little other way to measure your build. It causes issues with bragging - maybe. The tool tips are often to vague to know if they are going to help you run faster or have a decent build. The chart also helps identify those dps that might need some pointer or help with their build, I find the benefit far outweighs the negative of some potential bragging about who killed what.
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  • btairbornebtairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    I think this kind of information is best IF NOT SHARED. Having a statistics tab or something just for the player to see of his character.
  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 498 Arc User
    I think the chart is pretty fine. It was always a good way of seeing if someone sucks or knows how to play. Of course people need to have at least a small amount of knowledge about the current meta. Kicking a mof cw for doing less damage is simply stupid.
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  • l0th4ri0l0th4ri0 Member Posts: 589 Arc User
    hastati96 said:

    I think the chart is pretty fine. It was always a good way of seeing if someone sucks or knows how to play. Of course people need to have at least a small amount of knowledge about the current meta. Kicking a mof cw for doing less damage is simply stupid.

    The bolded text above.

    This is why the charts don't help, man. Your point about an MoF doing less damage? How do you know he is debuffing well or debuffing AT ALL? That "data" at the end of the run is mostly useless -- although an argument could be made for the one thing that could be considered useful and that is the number of downs for the team. Did everyone die a lot? That can actually mean something, can be used to point out playstyle issues like not avoiding red enough. Or it may not mean much at all and that the group composition was not ideal... needing a DC or more DPS or what-have-you. Even this needs to be taken in context. A well-built crew can get their asses kicked if the players don't know what to do with boss mechanics sometimes. No chart can tell you these important things.
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