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OP Nerfed Again?

mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 932 Arc User
This is redicilous. They strengthen the GF when they "balance" it and now NERF the OP again.

Forget to mention very few want to still play it because no one wants an OP tank in a dungeon anymore.

The only positive we can say is that CW will not be nerfed for at least 10 months.

... and people ask me why I have reduced my daily playtime from 9 Hours to only 2.
There are more than BIS players in this game
It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



Comments

  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    At least nobody makes the mistake of playing a CW on new platforms. CW almost an extinct species on PS4.
  • neirgaraneirgara Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    Where is the Problem with tanking Paladins? So far, all Tank Palas in my guild have a quite good Performance, either in guild runs, alliance runs or PuG runs.

    Perhaps the problem is with old Bubble builds, that did only rely on the bubble and did not get changed to a more suitable build? I have met several of those, that got built after a guide without understanding of the Player, how the class works. Those most often are very useless. But that is not the fault of any nerfing.
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    I don't know about GF getting strengthen with the "balance". But sadly for OP, my heart sinks a bit when I go in to an instance and find an OP for tank and/or heal. Most people prefer the speed run buffing duo of GF/DC. The OP is good for low iLvl runs where the party needs more protection.
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    mynaam said:

    This is redicilous. They strengthen the GF when they "balance" it and now NERF the OP again.

    Forget to mention very few want to still play it because no one wants an OP tank in a dungeon anymore.

    The only positive we can say is that CW will not be nerfed for at least 10 months.

    ... and people ask me why I have reduced my daily playtime from 9 Hours to only 2.

    You shouldn't have a problem getting groups in our alliance though. I've been running eToS and SoT quite a bit lately and get a good few OP tanks, and I see no issues with how they perform tbh.
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    neirgara said:

    Where is the Problem with tanking Paladins? So far, all Tank Palas in my guild have a quite good Performance, either in guild runs, alliance runs or PuG runs.

    Perhaps the problem is with old Bubble builds, that did only rely on the bubble and did not get changed to a more suitable build? I have met several of those, that got built after a guide without understanding of the Player, how the class works. Those most often are very useless. But that is not the fault of any nerfing.

    The problem is why should anyone take an OP over a GF? Even before this nerf the answer was they shouldn't. With this nerf the question is does anyone play an OP anymore?
  • neirgaraneirgara Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    sm0ld3r said:

    neirgara said:

    Where is the Problem with tanking Paladins? So far, all Tank Palas in my guild have a quite good Performance, either in guild runs, alliance runs or PuG runs.

    Perhaps the problem is with old Bubble builds, that did only rely on the bubble and did not get changed to a more suitable build? I have met several of those, that got built after a guide without understanding of the Player, how the class works. Those most often are very useless. But that is not the fault of any nerfing.

    The problem is why should anyone take an OP over a GF? Even before this nerf the answer was they shouldn't. With this nerf the question is does anyone play an OP anymore?

    1. The Paladin can dish out good amounts of damage, thanks to high crits and the reflection ability of his bubble.

    2. The Paladin has good Group buffs with his auras and skills, offensive and defensive.

    3. The Paladin can be build to reduce the cooldown of his Groups powers.

    4. Even a tank Paladin has a heal Daily, that is versatile and works either on himself or allies.

    5. Most, who decided to try a tank while Paladins were so good, Chose that class. Because of that, there are still many more willing Paladins, than GFs. Especially one, that are focused on tanking.

    6. If there are 3 viable OPs, but no GFs, that will run with you, it will be possible to get the run done by choosing one of the Paladins.

    7. The OPs player is more social / nicer / more experienced.
  • kvetkvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    neirgara said:


    7. The OPs player is more social / nicer / more experienced.

    Wait... what? I was with you until this one since you were basically saying Pallies aren't better or worse per se, just that the class is perfectly fine and useful in it's own right... I'd agree with you on that, in fact I feel the same way for all classes (not to say there's not work to be done on balance and bugs... just that the notion than any given class is "useless" or "pointless" is quite simply incorrect on it's face).

    But on your last point... I could easily give you some examples (except no naming and shaming allowed) that completely discounts the premise that people that play OPs are more social/nicer/experienced than those that play GFs.
  • neirgaraneirgara Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    @kvet

    That was a situational point. There are nice and not so nice players in all classes. But if you have to choose between a GF played by a not so nice player and an OP played by a nice player, then it would be a reason to choose the OP. That's why I'm not using the plural form of player. Actually all of these arguments are situational ones, depending on build, gear, experience, availablilty, and so on. :)
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    that makes zero sense at all.

    Your assigning a persons attitude based on what class of tank they play.. what utter nonsense.

    Ops are ok.. just not as ok as GFS are, if they are relative with each other.



  • kvetkvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    Ah. Well, I suppose... but then, the inverse is true too, so it's sort of irrelevant. You're right of course, playing with someone who is not a jackass is preferable to playing with someone who is.
  • eltecheltech Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    Ok, I've combed through the forums, and I still have no idea what the Op is talking about. Can someone give me a clue?​​
  • sorce#8115 sorce Member Posts: 1,009 Arc User
    eltech said:

    Ok, I've combed through the forums, and I still have no idea what the Op is talking about. Can someone give me a clue?​​

    Go read the preview forums - OP powers are being changed again in 10.5
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    They are currently open to feedback. Check the discussion here
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
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    Barney McRustbucket: GF
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  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    The only Paladin that was nerfed is the immortal build. If you don't play that then you should be fine. Why did it happen? Because paladins are currently able to tank 15 giants/bears at once for minutes without taking a scratch in FBI.

    I don't mind taking a paladin even in fast farming groups, I simply rarely do so because tankadins are either rare or bad players terrible at holding aggro. It's not like into the fray is a game changer anyway. It's nice to have it but that's about it.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    diogene0 said:

    The only Paladin that was nerfed is the immortal build. If you don't play that then you should be fine. Why did it happen? Because paladins are currently able to tank 15 giants/bears at once for minutes without taking a scratch in FBI.

    I don't mind taking a paladin even in fast farming groups, I simply rarely do so because tankadins are either rare or bad players terrible at holding aggro. It's not like into the fray is a game changer anyway. It's nice to have it but that's about it.

    I see you have absolutely no idea about the Paladin. The paladins inability to hold aggro is down to their threat generation being generally insufficient and specifically; that some skills intended for threat gen either don't work or shouldn't be used in groups (Relentless - because it sends enemies flying in all directions) For a pally to hold threat they also need full armor penetration and to use a weapon ench such as a trans lightning.

    I say this as someone with a 3.2k pally who now has no problems with threat gen.

    GF's now have a 1 button 25% party-wide DPS booster whereas a Paladin has to stack HP at the expense of DR (aura of courage) plus have very high power (power sharing) to match that 25%.

    The Paladin's only edge was survivability due to Divine Protector (bubble) and Binding Oath (soaks up all damage) these have now been changed so BO provides a shield to the value of their HP - which means orcus will break it in 1 or 2 hits.

    You suggest that most paladins are bad players whilst having absolutely no understanding what they are dealing with skills-wise. Did you know the GF has mutliple layers of shields outside of their DR stat? The GF has no trouble generating threat WITHOUT having to stack RI, meaning they can stack more power and recovery - thus reaching the goal of 100% uptime on ITF.

    GFs and OPs are players and as such you are going to find an equal number of 'good' and 'bad' players in both classes. What you are actually witnessing is the difference between the classes themselves, not the players.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


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  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    armadeonx said:

    diogene0 said:

    The only Paladin that was nerfed is the immortal build. If you don't play that then you should be fine. Why did it happen? Because paladins are currently able to tank 15 giants/bears at once for minutes without taking a scratch in FBI.

    I don't mind taking a paladin even in fast farming groups, I simply rarely do so because tankadins are either rare or bad players terrible at holding aggro. It's not like into the fray is a game changer anyway. It's nice to have it but that's about it.

    I see you have absolutely no idea about the Paladin. The paladins inability to hold aggro is down to their threat generation being generally insufficient and specifically; that some skills intended for threat gen either don't work or shouldn't be used in groups (Relentless - because it sends enemies flying in all directions) For a pally to hold threat they also need full armor penetration and to use a weapon ench such as a trans lightning.

    I say this as someone with a 3.2k pally who now has no problems with threat gen.

    GF's now have a 1 button 25% party-wide DPS booster whereas a Paladin has to stack HP at the expense of DR (aura of courage) plus have very high power (power sharing) to match that 25%.

    The Paladin's only edge was survivability due to Divine Protector (bubble) and Binding Oath (soaks up all damage) these have now been changed so BO provides a shield to the value of their HP - which means orcus will break it in 1 or 2 hits.

    You suggest that most paladins are bad players whilst having absolutely no understanding what they are dealing with skills-wise. Did you know the GF has mutliple layers of shields outside of their DR stat? The GF has no trouble generating threat WITHOUT having to stack RI, meaning they can stack more power and recovery - thus reaching the goal of 100% uptime on ITF.

    GFs and OPs are players and as such you are going to find an equal number of 'good' and 'bad' players in both classes. What you are actually witnessing is the difference between the classes themselves, not the players.
    You're obsessing yourself over worthless edges the GFs have. The purpose of taking a tank character is only aggro management, that's it. Not buffs, not fun, not protection for the party, but simply aggro. Or, to put it bluntly, convenience. If I want more buffs then I bring a debuff CW or a second DC. If I want some buffs and a bit of convenience then I take a TR or a HR instead of a tank. There's no need for tanks in most of the content. But there's a need for aggro management to some extent as it makes things easier overall.

    So, no, a paladin doesn't "have to" focus on power sharing or other buffs. They're meaningless. In the same vein, the primary reason to take a GF is convenience and aggro, not into the fray, because GFs are like tankadins, they're not needed stricto sensu, but I invite them for a more laid back experience.
  • neirgaraneirgara Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    @kvet

    Sure the opposite is true, too. Op asked, why someone should take a Paladin with him instead of a GF. And preferreing to play with someone, who is not toxic is a good reason. One should never forget the social component in a MMO. :)


    @silverkelt

    Please read my last post again. I stated, that the last argument on my list is completely situational and not a general assumption to the character of players of a given class. Wouldn't be a good idea either, considering, that I main a GF. :wink:
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    @diogene0

    Firstly I'm not just talking about why you personally take a GF over an OP, but players in general.

    Yes, threat generation has been a huge issue for the OP because it needs to do a lot more to generate it compared to the GF - i.e. the aggro management you are referring to.

    As you stated earlier, the OP has no problem dealing with the incoming damage, attracting it in the 1st place is the issue - and that is down to the threat generating mechanics available to the class. Essentially, the OP has to put out constant DPS to all enemies that equates to at least 20% of the damage of the highest DPS player in the group. That means constant AoE damage with full armor penetration.

    My Pally is now capable of this but to reach this point I've had to achieve ~6.5k armor pen and choose RI boons over tank oriented ones - plus purchase a trans lightning enchantment and an owlbear cub. How many GF's have had to do this just to make the enemy attack them?

    However, I'm sure you're also aware than even when the 'bubble' was at 20 seconds full immunity, higher groups were opting for the GF. This has nothing to do with threat management because the pally didn't need to manage threat - because nobody took damage! It was because runs were faster with significant buffs from the tank.

    You saying that buffs are not demanded from tanks is therefore disingenuous at best.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    @diogene0
    I have to disagree. The aggro management and tanking capabilities are important but this game is 90% about buffs. Every dungeon excluding FBI u dont need a tank u only take a GF/OP cause of their buff/dps abilities. In FBI u want them to be able to tank and manage agroo too but again i will never take a GF or OP in my party whos not buffing or dealing good dps. So yeah the primary reason to take a GF and OP are the buffs and dps the offer the party
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    @diogene0

    I have to disagree. The aggro management and tanking capabilities are important but this game is 90% about buffs. Every dungeon excluding FBI u dont need a tank u only take a GF/OP cause of their buff/dps abilities. In FBI u want them to be able to tank and manage agroo too but again i will never take a GF or OP in my party whos not buffing or dealing good dps. So yeah the primary reason to take a GF and OP are the buffs and dps the offer the party

    You see, that right there is the problem with NW today and players' mindsets. Tanks aren't meant to be doing damage FFS - they are there to tank and keep the mobs from HAMSTER up your HAMSTER.
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • lyaiselyaise Member Posts: 491 Arc User
    Shouldn't this thread be titled SW NERFED AGAIN?
    ...............vote for your favourite expansion..........
    "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
    ..............not this one then.............
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    lyaise said:

    Shouldn't this thread be titled SW NERFED AGAIN?

    More like: Buglock still bugged after numerous fixes.
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    tom#6998 said:

    @diogene0

    I have to disagree. The aggro management and tanking capabilities are important but this game is 90% about buffs. Every dungeon excluding FBI u dont need a tank u only take a GF/OP cause of their buff/dps abilities. In FBI u want them to be able to tank and manage agroo too but again i will never take a GF or OP in my party whos not buffing or dealing good dps. So yeah the primary reason to take a GF and OP are the buffs and dps the offer the party

    The buffs from a non commander's strike using GF aren't that significant in most of the content, except FBI actually. Stuff will get almost one shot regardless of the tank you're taking. We're looking at maybe 30s shorter CN runs with a GF, and most of the benefits from ITF comes from running faster in empty places. If your team can't one shot zombies already there's a problem in the team that goes deeper than what flavour of tank you invited.

    The fact that the meta revolves around buffs is irrelevant, because at one point there's just too much dps and there's a limited pool of hit points on non boss monsters. Some teams are past that point already.
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