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Dungeon Key Changes

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  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator

    It'd be helpful if the devs actually came here and engage with us.

    I agree completely.

    I'm sorry trips but at this time, we need evidence showing that Cryptic is really spending time reading this thread.

    I understand completely.

    I am generally skeptical, too. Play the Foundry in my signature Cryptic of Kelemvor if you want to see some of that skepticism in action. What I can tell you (and everyone) is that the moderators have been in direct contact with the developers this afternoon. We had a blunt, honest and respectful exchange. I genuinely believe they are following this thread.


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  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    kreatyve said:

    These changes are live on Preview. The patch notes are up. I highly recommend that players do try it out on Preview if possible and leave as much constructive feedback concerning this as possible. Perhaps we can at least sway them a little on the value of the rewards in the chests.

    Do we even need to go on preview? They didn't even have an "items and economy" section in the patch notes. If the rewards are the same and we have to burn campaign keys on every campaign chest we inspect we all know what the end result is.
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  • midpoint#3070 midpoint Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    Great they implemented the paywall in preview, completely ignoring the 43 pages of rage.

    No official response is evidence for me, this feedback is wasted. They're going ahead with this no matter what.

    Whatever false promises follow from here won't mean anything without real commitments and numbers to back them up.

    RNG needs a drastic overhaul, inventory contention problems from duplicate items bound char, acc etc,multi keys.

    Token system for dungeons & lock boxes. Gauranteed legendary mount every 500 lock boxes bound to account. Tokens from dungeons gauranteed choice pack every 50 runs. Complete overhaul of chests, bound acc r7 & 8s drop in game, bosses etc.

    Give a little, get alot back. Stop being so stingy, make a mistake here and ignore all this at your own peril.
  • nyghomanyghoma Member Posts: 546 Arc User
    So let's see. 250 Zen per three keys = 125,000 AD.
    About 42,000 AD per key. That's more AD than you can refine in a day, on a single character.
    For what? For an average of 4-6k in salvage from a dungeon chest? Has Cryptic gone mad?

    If you "gate" the dungeons with this key change, it will be the death to end-game population. Seriously, what do you think we do all day? Farm CN/Demo/PoM. Do you really expect people to drop 10 buck a day on keys? I think you're taking a dangerous gamble with your product that you won't recover easily from.
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    Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
  • groglastgroglast Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    kreatyve said:

    These changes are live on Preview. The patch notes are up. I highly recommend that players do try it out on Preview if possible and leave as much constructive feedback concerning this as possible. Perhaps we can at least sway them a little on the value of the rewards in the chests.

    Look at how much typing in this thread has helped.

    Look at how much they communicated with us.

    If you are being completely intellectually honest, do you really think typing stuff in the other thread is going to make any difference? Who here could believe that? This update is going live, that much is obvious. So any ideas we have on how to make this work have to keep that in mind. The only one I can think of is drastically increasing the drop rates and probably bettering the loot tables. You said "perhaps we can at least sway them a little on the value of the rewards in the chests," but a little won't be enough. Not nearly enough. The drop rates across the board will need a very large increase, not a little increase. The returned value per key will need a very large increase, not a little increase. And most likely the loot tables will need to be improved by a significant amount as well. Does anyone disagree on this?

    So what are we supposed to test on the preview server? We know the exact thing that's going to change: keys will be consumed when opening a chest. What's there to test?

    Right now my daily gameplay is logging in to run CN once or more with a friend with 3 pugs. I have about 20 greater demonic keys stored up or so. As soon as I burn through that stash, I'm not going to buy more keys under this degenerate new key policy, I'm not going to run demogorgon twice for every one time I run CN, and I'm not going to run CN with less than 3 chances at good loot under the current loot tables and drop rates. Hell, the loot tables and drop rates aren't even good enough now much less if we have to use the key.

    My prediction is that most players who are used to being able to peak will end up running end game dungeons once or zero times a day instead of any more than once per day, since most won't want less of a chance at the loot. A few will buy keys to supplement. New players who never knew any better will probably just accept the change if they don't know any better. Some people will move on. And through all this is one constant, the only real theme here: the developers who promised better communication have not and will not follow through on that. Only the whales matter, and only their milk money. Everyone else is a little fish. Who cares if they come and go. These are degenerate mobile gaming milking tactics, and it simply didn't have to go down like this. But it has, so let's stop the cognitive dissonance about pretending that our voices matter.
  • hanniballa#2401 hanniballa Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    groglast said:

    kreatyve said:

    These changes are live on Preview. The patch notes are up. I highly recommend that players do try it out on Preview if possible and leave as much constructive feedback concerning this as possible. Perhaps we can at least sway them a little on the value of the rewards in the chests.

    Look at how much typing in this thread has helped.

    Look at how much they communicated with us.

    I used to work in politics, when we had to dump bad news we'd give it to the press on a friday night. That way everyone would be too busy to call us out. Cryptic should be a political party.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User

    kreatyve said:

    These changes are live on Preview. The patch notes are up. I highly recommend that players do try it out on Preview if possible and leave as much constructive feedback concerning this as possible. Perhaps we can at least sway them a little on the value of the rewards in the chests.

    Why should we even waste our time? We know that the keys will be consumed. The original post said the "design team will be better able to design rewards for chests going foward now" meaning they haven't actually done anything yet to look at the loot tables for the chest rewards.

    The design team will, not the design team has. Going forward, not with these changes and retroactively for earlier content.
    Loot table review is on the roadmap just after foundry update, giving back our dungeons, and "balancing" classes. But first lets nerf old armor sets and dungeon rewards. There is plenty of time for this other stuff to be completed after the players leave
  • groglastgroglast Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    ...What I can tell you (and everyone) is that the moderators have been in direct contact with the developers this afternoon. We had a blunt, honest and respectful exchange. I genuinely believe they are following this thread.

    I appreciate you letting us know. It's crystal clear you're passionate about the game and community relations. You don't want the game to crash and burn. Your sincerity rings loud and clear. But you had a discussion with them...so what? Honestly, it's nice to know that at least they are talking to someone, but so what? The simple truth here is that you can't help with this. The problem isn't with you. This is an arcade game with an ever degenerating business model. Start off with a fair business model, then slowly over the course of a few years adjust to wringing as much as possible from the big spenders. We are the frog in the pot that comes to a boil, or else we have to jump out before that happens.

    Normally I hate analogies and try to avoid using them since they can be picked apart so easily, but I'll try to explain this using one now. You go into a business that you frequently purchase a service from. For whatever reason, today you have a problem with the service they provide for you. You go up to the kid at the counter and describe the problem. You notice 40 other people at the store waiting in line to complain about the same thing. No reply from the kid. You say, "Did you hear anything I said? What can we do to make this right and work for both of us?" The kid says, "I'm not the one who can help you with this. I can't make any decisions about this or speak on behalf of those who can make those decisions." "Okay, well who can do those things? Can you go get the manager? Anyone in the back? Where's your boss?" "Oh don't worry, I'll let them know about everything you say here." "Uhh, who is it even that you'll tell? Can I talk to them or someone else? Are they here now?" "No clue if they'll come talk to you or not, but I can assure you they're watching this entire conversation right now on CCTV..." He points over his shoulder at the video camera. "So go ahead and say everything you want to say. We're listening closely and will take it into consideration." Then imagine this happening once a month between you and this service.

    How long do they expect us to stand there? Would anyone keep doing business with them? Most people would leave the store immediately and discontinue that service forever.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    putzboy78 said:


    Why should we even waste our time? We know that the keys will be consumed. The original post said the "design team will be better able to design rewards for chests going foward now" meaning they haven't actually done anything yet to look at the loot tables for the chest rewards.

    The design team will, not the design team has. Going forward, not with these changes and retroactively for earlier content.

    Loot table review is on the roadmap just after foundry update, giving back our dungeons, and "balancing" classes. But first lets nerf old armor sets and dungeon rewards. There is plenty of time for this other stuff to be completed after the players leave

    As much as I hate to +1 this kind of comment for a game I've loved for so long and spent so much on, yes, this. I really don't trust the OP's sort of equivocation to come even slightly close to addressing WHY almost all players reject the loot in almost all cases.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    I would not hold the Preview implementation of this against Cryptic. This thread has only existed a few days and there is a huge momentum in such development processes. They certainly will need a few days to process this uproar. It will help to get Andy back on Monday too.

    The size of this thread after so few days should be a very clear signal to Cryptic that they are on thin ice here though.

    It feels like the developers live in a very different universe from us players. Do they play the game at all?
  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    i know where these guys learning from, Dilbert comicstrips for Business 101 instead of real collages, because they cant afford it.
    these guys will be most hated when they going to attend Electronic Convention in Vegas, in the minefield of insults and hostile stares, possible may not be invited and forced to leave. security and convention staffs dont want riot on hand. too many will be filing complaints.
    it will chain-react to other convention centers as San Diego's Comic Con may blacklist cryptic staffs to prevent outrages as precautions.
    once Hasbro hear this and may get some negative views and may have no choice to void the contract, they may seek to offer contract to other dev studios who can do it honestly, unfortunely, Neverwinter would need complete rebuilt because cryptic made tons of mistakes and cant fix the bugs.

    now that chest-key issue, players will still get upset and calling the devs as liars when they see drop rates went from .001 to .00125, still not enough improvements, what these guys thinking so small too much? some players are expecting .001 went to .075 adjustment, would be huge improvements.

    but no thanks, just KILL that RNG!
  • flambridgeflambridge Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    Is this a bug? Seriously?

    If this goes live, please reduce the campaign key generating tasks to 20 seconds, instead of 20 hours. If I can't decline a chest with a +1 ring and a peridot, I sure as heck better be able to pop out keys like mad.

    Yep.
  • vahdati1#9368 vahdati1 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    This is absolute BS. With this update going live I am probably barely going to keep playing. stop the money munching off of loyal customers/players and actually do updates that everyone can enjoy
  • shadowskysunshadowskysun Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1194402/feedback-needed-top-issues-currently-in-neverwinter-pc
    is overflowing with player feedback, but i'm not seeing it having any noticeable impact on game changes.
    and there is no official reply on that thread for a looong time now.

    so, forgive me for being sceptical about them suddenly starting to "listen" to player feedback about important game changes.
    words are fine, deeds are better...
  • jaysun1977jaysun1977 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    kreatyve said:

    These changes are live on Preview. The patch notes are up. I highly recommend that players do try it out on Preview if possible and leave as much constructive feedback concerning this as possible. Perhaps we can at least sway them a little on the value of the rewards in the chests.

    Seriously, what for? We told them they were HAMSTER REPEATEDLY. They don't care. They just want us running in there over and over for little to no reward, chasing that one drop with its infinitesimal drop chance, so they can artificially inflate their number of CCUs. That's also why they hardly ever do anything about the actual bots in game. The CCUs are the only thing the higher ups are interested in as they secure the funding.

    It's all about the money, Lebowski!
  • midpoint#3070 midpoint Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    People seriously thinking Andy coming back means something. His job has no real influence on in game decisions, if it did this would never have happened.

    He took holiday just to avoid the sht storm. Credit too him, he doesn't get paid well enough to put up with mgmt failures. Feeling kinda sorry for him having to work with such jackazs.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    If we are essentially going to be restricted to one free key per day per campaign then they absolutely need to remove blue gear from chests.

    A +1 ring worth 2.2k salvage is not a decent reward. I understand them dropping as freebies but if players are now going to be limited to one chest reward per day then it needs to be an equal chance at a +3, 4 or 5.

    Bear in mind that to even get that key, players have to run x3 gold for a lesser and x6 for a greater - whilst only being able to open a chest on one of those runs. This of course will increase the amount of people running 3k+ gold teams as they won't want newer players causing them to waste time with lower scores.

    I've been running PoM a lot recently on my CW. Even with the supposed spawn fix I've only had gold twice. My usual paingiver score is over 40 million and most of the time that's more than the rest of the team put together. There's usually at least 2 players below 2k IL - which currently I don't mind as the chest reward is random and declinable - i.e. I don't need to make another key so don't care if we score a bronze and I get 33 Faerzress.

    If I'm put in a position where I need to get gold every time so that I only have to do 3 to make my next key then I will not run with anyone under 3k - I simply cannot afford the time.
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  • maulwurfmann01maulwurfmann01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 27 Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    These changes are live on Preview. The patch notes are up. I highly recommend that players do try it out on Preview if possible and leave as much constructive feedback concerning this as possible. Perhaps we can at least sway them a little on the value of the rewards in the chests.

    The fact, that this actually gone live on prev. shows me, that it´s all over...hamster, hamster, hamster
    with this on live server I´m going to quit

  • excat56#5321 excat56 Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    I have been playing since day 3 of launch on PS4. I have not gotten a SINGLE drop of value out of a chest since I've been playing. Out of 100's of elol's, I've had 2 horns to drop on the ground (not chest), to this day 0 shards from Valindra or Orcus. Out of those runs, if I had to spend money for every run, AND gotten NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING of value, I would simply say your game is a scam and is ripping people off for money.

    At the end of the day, this is horribly sad for the players, and a pathetic cash grab move for a company. The only people that are being hurt by this is the people that feed your family by spending our hard earned money, because without us, you don't make money. Games that are under constant development are a two way street. Once you turn it into a one way street, well, ask all the other dead mmo's how that worked out for them.

    If this goes live, all I can say is RIP, I enjoyed my time in NW.
  • excat56#5321 excat56 Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    nyghoma said:

    So let's see. 250 Zen per three keys = 125,000 AD.
    About 42,000 AD per key. That's more AD than you can refine in a day, on a single character.
    For what? For an average of 4-6k in salvage from a dungeon chest? Has Cryptic gone mad?

    If you "gate" the dungeons with this key change, it will be the death to end-game population. Seriously, what do you think we do all day? Farm CN/Demo/PoM. Do you really expect people to drop 10 buck a day on keys? I think you're taking a dangerous gamble with your product that you won't recover easily from.

    Maybe that is what is wrong with the RNG system, they don't even know simple math?!?! I'll give you 6k ad all day long in exchange for 42k ad :persevere:

    A good analogy would be...give me a dollar every minute for one day. For every dollar you give me I'll reach into my bag and give you what I pull out. In my bag I have 1 million pieces of lint, 2 pennies, 1 nickle, a dirty quarter, and a wadded up $100 bill the same size as the lint. For every piece of lint you pull out, 1,000 more pieces are added. I'll buy back the lint and stick it back in the bag for 1 penny per piece. -- Hope you like lint, cuz you're never breaking even, none the less, getting ahead.
  • maulwurfmann01maulwurfmann01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    it´s like this...


    Captain, we have to do something...

    image

    No,let´s first wait for some feedback
  • sabre10sabre10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 340 Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    These changes are live on Preview. The patch notes are up. I highly recommend that players do try it out on Preview if possible and leave as much constructive feedback concerning this as possible. Perhaps we can at least sway them a little on the value of the rewards in the chests.

    Thanks Kreatyve, I appreciate the effort you're putting in here.
    I've looked on preview and I've subsequently looked to add feedback, can't find the appropriate place to add though.

    As things stand at this moment Panderus has commented that:
    panderus said:


    I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."

    So, I would have thought that they'd have ample feedback to be working with tbh, and the lack of official response to the "concerns" is deafening. Conspicuous even, in it's absence.

    There is a very significant portion of my guild that are unhappy about this change. Some have voiced their opinions on the forum, some have not. What's clear is that universally they're unhappy about this change because of the matter of loot.
    Perhaps swaying them a little on the value of loot is just not going to cut it.

    When these changes go live, and lets be honest that's a fait accompli, unless the rewards and their respective drop rates are massively overhauled people are going to remain upset. Upset players don't remain, they don't spend and they make sure that others understand this. They take their money to one of cryptic's many competitors.
    Loot and drop rates have to be meaningful for players to feel rewarded and the community's feeling on this matter is pretty palpable.
    xeltey said:

    .....the Neverwinter design team will be better able to design rewards for chests going forward now that the bug has been fixed.

    NO.
    Changes to rewards need to happen at the same time, and understand this.. they need to be Rewarding!

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  • qexoticqexotic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 841 Arc User
    Lighthearted aside regarding bugs.

    Many years ago I remember hearing the urban myth that Microsoft were paranoid about not allowing any official mention of bugs in their software. To this end, any bug found was supposedly referred to as being:

    'An undocumented feature not required by the user'

    By that definition, the 'bug' being discussed in this thread does not qualify as it quite clearly is(was) an undocumented feature that IS required by the users >:)


This discussion has been closed.