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Open Letter to Cryptic

karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
I will take an indefinite break from your game. One major reason, or as some players say: “The last nail in the coffin”, was indeed the announced dungeon key change. I am probably not the only one that takes a break from the game neither the last one. But I wanted to make this and give you a clue why I am taking a break from you.

It was not the change itself that made me think about taking another break from your game, it was the approach of it. The approach to say that the current system, which is now something between 1-2 years active is a bug that needed to be fixed because of inequalities.
A fix that was, if I remember correctly, accidentally fixed 1 or 2 times as you rolled out a patch and was rolled back as soon as there was an uproar (btw. the fix was also never mentioned in any of those patch notes).
That means one thing: You openly lied to us. Your community. Your players. Your customers.

How can I trust a company if they doesn’t trust their own decisions anymore and must rely on lying to their customers?

And this is not the first time something like this happened. I remember as Neverwinter started and the armor was unbound. An update later we had bound armor and there was a gigantic uproar. As answer to that you made it unbound, or at least the boss drop was unbound, the personal chest was bound.

You stated back then that you would listen to your customers and if we don’t want something like this you wouldn’t do it. What do we have now? Bound Armor. From the chest of course but also from Bosses. Something you said you wouldn’t do.

My god are you incompetent. And I mean not only the Developers but the Company as a whole

I mean, seriously. Elemental Evil. Deleting 66% of your endgame content. Deleting 11 Dungeons. The Module offered nothing of value for your customers.

Exploits, reported by your own community before the game even got launched into Open Beta that lead to a rollback and 2 days downtime. And that is not the only time that happens. Your overall damage control is terrible.

Rubber banding. I know you are in this strange Zone where the provider offers a terrible services for the connection so we all have a bit of lag but nothing really terrible. But as a customer, I can only care that much. You had over three years’ time to come up with an solution, and even if we exclude this problem the game still has issues with rubber banding because AOE fields generate an higher ping by itself (degrading netcode?).

Different powers constantly interact with each other making an infinite amount of procs. I still remember how it was impossible to make a Herald Run in the Well of Dragons as soon as a Paladin used Prism or a Divine Cleric used Astral Shield. The whole instance was halted because the server must calculate all the different procs from these abilities which meant you couldn’t do anything until the Prism or the Astral Shield runs out of time.

It would be the best to insert a system that allows at max. 10 procs from any source until it is clearly stated how much it can proc. I was in Dungeon Runs in the past with two Paladins and if they used certain powers at the same time the whole instance crashed, we were booted from the game and as we logged back in we were outside the Dungeon. We lost our complete progression in the Dungeon and needed to start again.

The game currently feels more like one of these HAMSTER little mobile games

You know the mobile games that sounds pretty great and also play very well the first few minutes or hours but after a certain point it is clear to you that you must pay a tremendous amount of money to get the same fun or flow back that it started with?

This is that sort of game which are classified as a plain cash grab from the majority of the gaming community and being tossed outside the airlock.

And Neverwinter is currently in the same category. And it is not my sole opinion. I am reading also the reddit and a lot of players complain that they have the feeling that they can’t progress anymore at a certain point in the game which is most of the time around 2,500 ilvl.

I understand, it is a free2play game and someone must pay for it but your monetization is EVERYWHERE. Stronghold, Companions, Enchantments, Healing Potions, Reskin, Retrain, Inventory Space, etc.

There is basically no aspect of the game where I don’t need to pay with Astral Diamonds. You must pay for the simplest things. But at the same time you make bold claims like: “We want that Armor is earned.”

That’s an outright lie! As Stronghold was introduced you could pay for it to get it after a few tries on the heroic encounter. You could purchase Stronghold goods for the Guild Marks and Keys to open the small chests for extra Dragon Fangs. After a few days there where already players running around in the new shiny armor and everyone knew: They didn’t earned it. They payed to speed it up and not for a small portion of it.
Also you could pay for the Dusk Armor which is better than the regular Dragonflight Armor.

And the worst is…

And the worst overall is: Neverwinter is not even a bad game. It has fun combat. The classes feel very differently in their roles and are all very fun to play (only the Hunter Ranger, he is HAMSTER, seriously how can you play with such a HAMSTER dodge?). The Dungeons&Dragons license is a good one and in the designs of the monsters and npcs very well executed (praise to your design team).

Heck, even the campaigns gets a better story (praise to your story guy). I really liked the Underdark and Maze Engine Storyline and also the Stormkings Thunder Storyline is very interesting and easier to understand as the older campaigns.

So there is at least one point that gets better. But on the other side:

PvP is broken. Really broken. The game is essential pay2win. In PvE that is something totally neglectable. You also benefit from stronger player that cashed in if they are in your group/guild (and I personally view it as a good thing if you can skip to pay). But in PvP you get crushed by the sheer amount of gear these player brings with it which lead to a decline of the PvP community.

The same goes for the Foundry. I understand that your budget is limited and your man power is also very limited. But the Foundry could have been the key feature to change this. You know games like Starcraft or Warcraft 3? They created new genres of games with a good content creator tool. Something like this could have been the Foundry. It could have kept your game relevant for the community which outgrew your content. But instead it was abandoned.

To sum it up

You have still a good game. A good foundation. But the overall annoyances add up.
The monetization feels too invasive and it gives me the overall feeling: Give me money or I throw stick and stones in your way. Bugs and Lags are really annoying. And some design decisions are beyond HAMSTER.

Why did you implement certain features in the first place if you can’t secure to keep them updated?

Or couldn’t you keep them because of wrong decisions you did in the past which lead to a decline in your community and less income for you?

If that is the case, you learned nothing of your past mistakes. You make them over and over and over again.

And one of your biggest mistakes was to lie to us. Your customers. Your Community. Your Lifeline.
plat.png
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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Comments

  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,118 Arc User
    You forgot the gateway. Other good feature poorly managed. RIP
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
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  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    I have to agree with a lot of the sentiments here.

    On the good side, you have a lot of things other MMOs out there don't have:
    • The license and the game world is very solid. As a big fan of RA Salvatore and his works, I can really feel like there's a lot of effort put into bringing that world to life. Neverwinter does a great job at capturing the flavor of D&D.
    • The action combat is solid, probably one of the best on the market. It strikes a really great balance between fast-clicking and reflexes vs. thoughtful execution and strategic play. You have to think and react fast, but this game is very punishing to those that just mindlessly mash buttons.
    • The classes are all unique. Most MMOs out there have a lot of classes, but they all feel roughly the same. There's a ton of overlap between classes, and it's hard to really find a favorite because they don't actually play that differently. In Nevewinter, the difference between playing a Warlock and a Wizard, even though they're caster archetypes is wildly different. Guardian versus a Paladin? Totally different. That's not easy to do
    • Content updates. People will argue about the quality, but the pace at which new content is added is pretty astounding. And the updates have all been solid, with the exception of the poorly executed Module 6. But the stories, content and additions of Modules 1, 2,3 and 4+5 were great. The stories and execution of 8, 9, and the vision of what 10 could've been without the extra helping of Voningrind are solid.
    On the negative side, you guys really have this sick fascination with having players grind things out. I can only imagine you sit in meetings and get excited when you see the metrics. You might sit in a decision meeting and pour over metrics and celebrate the fact that players have run the same content hundreds and hundreds of times in a row. I can only imagine there's people in the building who are celebrated because the Legendary Ring grind in Epic Demogorgon has led to that fight being run more than anything else in the history of Neverwinter. You probably champion that as a huge success and big win for Neverwinter.

    Meanwhile, it's made your players miserable. Think about it this way.

    Do you like beer? Or wine? Or chocolate? Pick you flavor. I like beer...so I'll go with beer.

    The first beer I drink is great. The second beer might be better. The third is pretty good, and so on. But (and probably more likely in college about 20 years ago) if you challenged me to drink an entire case of beer to earn some prize, I'd try it. Why? I don't know...I'm dumb? I like dumb things? Or I'm just super competitive and like a challenge. Anyway, after 24 beers, I'm sick of it. I feel sick. I look sick. And I'm miserable. I swear off of beer, that I never want to do it again.

    That's what your content feels like. You're choosing quantity over quality, then you're forcing people to over-indulge to the point where it makes them want to puke, in order to get any sort of reward.

    And so I'm asking you, why not offer the player a really, really amazing six-pack of beer? Something that tastes amazing, something we want to drink, and something that when we finish, we're asking for more. We're thirsty for more. We're demanding more, and we can't wait for you to deliver the next set of beers.

    But what you do is chose quantity over quality. You think for the same price as a really great six-pack, you can serve a case of really low-end stuff. And sure, it takes your players much longer to get through that low-end experience, but as I said above...it just leaves us feeling sick, hoping that the next time you deliver us some beers, is not another case of Natty Bo. But there it is. And since we still mostly like beer (but a lot of us are starting to lose the taste for it), we reluctantly crack open a can and start working through it, with some strange optimism that if we finish this case of crappy beer, the next beer delivery might be better.

    Anyway, replace your favorite thing to consume in the above example.

    But the point is, you need to change your philosophy here.

    Right now, it's "How can we keep these guys grinding away for 3-4 months for minimal rewards while we work on the next piece of content."

    Instead, your philosophy should be two-fold.

    One, "How do we tell an amazing story and deliver a rewarding experience that keeps our average player engaged for 30 days?"

    And then two, "How do we encourage players to stay relatively engaged for the next 90 days while we develop new content, so at the end of that, they feel fulfilled and rewarded for having continued re-playing content past the original excitement?"

    The net result is you have a better play experience at both ends. When you launch new content, you have an incredibly high amount of re-engagement from old players who know they're going to get a kickass experience from Neverwinter for about 30 days every 3-4 months. When they hear news of something new coming, they rush back to get engaged.

    And your loyal players who log in day in and day out can feel good about having stuck around to earn the best of the best rewards that last module had to offer. And not only do they stay positive about the game, they act as beacons to warmly encourage and welcome back those transient players with each update.

    Because right now your above philosophy is doing two things to the players.

    One, it's making those of us who are sticking around full-time in Neverwinter question why we even bother. The grind is high, the rewards are minimal, and despite some flashes of brilliance, we're mostly grinding through mediocre.

    Two, it's making those players who come and go come back, look at the unrewarding amount of grind and say, "Nope, not even going to bother." That's actually what I've seen more of than anything the last module. In Unrepentant Gaming, we've typically seen a huge spike in activity when new content comes out, then things slowly drift back down to the "regulars" as people experience the new content, then check out. With STK, I've been shocked (or maybe not) at the number of potentially returning players in Unrepentant that have taken a look at the content, or have read feedback on the module and have totally opted out of even trying to come back because of the grind being presented.

    Wow, that's a novel. Congratulations if you actually made it this far...not optimistic many did, but eh...slow morning at work, what better things did I have to do?

    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • qexoticqexotic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 840 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    I have to agree with a lot of the sentiments here.

    On the good side, you have a lot of things other MMOs out there don't have:

    • The license and the game world is very solid. As a big fan of RA Salvatore and his works, I can really feel like there's a lot of effort put into bringing that world to life. Neverwinter does a great job at capturing the flavor of D&D.
    • The action combat is solid, probably one of the best on the market. It strikes a really great balance between fast-clicking and reflexes vs. thoughtful execution and strategic play. You have to think and react fast, but this game is very punishing to those that just mindlessly mash buttons.
    • The classes are all unique. Most MMOs out there have a lot of classes, but they all feel roughly the same. There's a ton of overlap between classes, and it's hard to really find a favorite because they don't actually play that differently. In Nevewinter, the difference between playing a Warlock and a Wizard, even though they're caster archetypes is wildly different. Guardian versus a Paladin? Totally different. That's not easy to do
    • Content updates. People will argue about the quality, but the pace at which new content is added is pretty astounding. And the updates have all been solid, with the exception of the poorly executed Module 6. But the stories, content and additions of Modules 1, 2,3 and 4+5 were great. The stories and execution of 8, 9, and the vision of what 10 could've been without the extra helping of Voningrind are solid.
    On the negative side, you guys really have this sick fascination with having players grind things out. I can only imagine you sit in meetings and get excited when you see the metrics. You might sit in a decision meeting and pour over metrics and celebrate the fact that players have run the same content hundreds and hundreds of times in a row. I can only imagine there's people in the building who are celebrated because the Legendary Ring grind in Epic Demogorgon has led to that fight being run more than anything else in the history of Neverwinter. You probably champion that as a huge success and big win for Neverwinter.

    Meanwhile, it's made your players miserable. Think about it this way.

    Do you like beer? Or wine? Or chocolate? Pick you flavor. I like beer...so I'll go with beer.

    The first beer I drink is great. The second beer might be better. The third is pretty good, and so on. But (and probably more likely in college about 20 years ago) if you challenged me to drink an entire case of beer to earn some prize, I'd try it. Why? I don't know...I'm dumb? I like dumb things? Or I'm just super competitive and like a challenge. Anyway, after 24 beers, I'm sick of it. I feel sick. I look sick. And I'm miserable. I swear off of beer, that I never want to do it again.

    That's what your content feels like. You're choosing quantity over quality, then you're forcing people to over-indulge to the point where it makes them want to puke, in order to get any sort of reward.

    And so I'm asking you, why not offer the player a really, really amazing six-pack of beer? Something that tastes amazing, something we want to drink, and something that when we finish, we're asking for more. We're thirsty for more. We're demanding more, and we can't wait for you to deliver the next set of beers.

    But what you do is chose quantity over quality. You think for the same price as a really great six-pack, you can serve a case of really low-end stuff. And sure, it takes your players much longer to get through that low-end experience, but as I said above...it just leaves us feeling sick, hoping that the next time you deliver us some beers, is not another case of Natty Bo. But there it is. And since we still mostly like beer (but a lot of us are starting to lose the taste for it), we reluctantly crack open a can and start working through it, with some strange optimism that if we finish this case of crappy beer, the next beer delivery might be better.

    Anyway, replace your favorite thing to consume in the above example.

    But the point is, you need to change your philosophy here.

    Right now, it's "How can we keep these guys grinding away for 3-4 months for minimal rewards while we work on the next piece of content."

    Instead, your philosophy should be two-fold.

    One, "How do we tell an amazing story and deliver a rewarding experience that keeps our average player engaged for 30 days?"

    And then two, "How do we encourage players to stay relatively engaged for the next 90 days while we develop new content, so at the end of that, they feel fulfilled and rewarded for having continued re-playing content past the original excitement?"

    The net result is you have a better play experience at both ends. When you launch new content, you have an incredibly high amount of re-engagement from old players who know they're going to get a kickass experience from Neverwinter for about 30 days every 3-4 months. When they hear news of something new coming, they rush back to get engaged.

    And your loyal players who log in day in and day out can feel good about having stuck around to earn the best of the best rewards that last module had to offer. And not only do they stay positive about the game, they act as beacons to warmly encourage and welcome back those transient players with each update.

    Because right now your above philosophy is doing two things to the players.

    One, it's making those of us who are sticking around full-time in Neverwinter question why we even bother. The grind is high, the rewards are minimal, and despite some flashes of brilliance, we're mostly grinding through mediocre.

    Two, it's making those players who come and go come back, look at the unrewarding amount of grind and say, "Nope, not even going to bother." That's actually what I've seen more of than anything the last module. In Unrepentant Gaming, we've typically seen a huge spike in activity when new content comes out, then things slowly drift back down to the "regulars" as people experience the new content, then check out. With STK, I've been shocked (or maybe not) at the number of potentially returning players in Unrepentant that have taken a look at the content, or have read feedback on the module and have totally opted out of even trying to come back because of the grind being presented.

    Wow, that's a novel. Congratulations if you actually made it this far...not optimistic many did, but eh...slow morning at work, what better things did I have to do?

    Well done @ironzerg79 . This is one of the best posts I have read through from start to finish on this thread so far. I just hope someone in a position to actually do something reads it too....and then takes some action !

    P.S. Thought this was in the 'Chest Keys' thread, so must need more caffeine. Even so, great post @ironzerg79 :)

  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Member Posts: 824 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    I have to agree with a lot of the sentiments here.

    On the good side, you have a lot of things other MMOs out there don't have:

    • The license and the game world is very solid. As a big fan of RA Salvatore and his works, I can really feel like there's a lot of effort put into bringing that world to life. Neverwinter does a great job at capturing the flavor of D&D.
    • The action combat is solid, probably one of the best on the market. It strikes a really great balance between fast-clicking and reflexes vs. thoughtful execution and strategic play. You have to think and react fast, but this game is very punishing to those that just mindlessly mash buttons.
    • The classes are all unique. Most MMOs out there have a lot of classes, but they all feel roughly the same. There's a ton of overlap between classes, and it's hard to really find a favorite because they don't actually play that differently. In Nevewinter, the difference between playing a Warlock and a Wizard, even though they're caster archetypes is wildly different. Guardian versus a Paladin? Totally different. That's not easy to do
    • Content updates. People will argue about the quality, but the pace at which new content is added is pretty astounding. And the updates have all been solid, with the exception of the poorly executed Module 6. But the stories, content and additions of Modules 1, 2,3 and 4+5 were great. The stories and execution of 8, 9, and the vision of what 10 could've been without the extra helping of Voningrind are solid.
    ....

    I mostly agree with your list of positives. I have tried other MMOs - LOTRO, SWTOR, TERA, STO and now I'm playing ES:O. The combat animations and controls in NW are the best of those listed. And the classes are clearly unique with very little overlap. These are the game features that have prevented me from completely abandoning the game.

    I don't agree with your comments on the content updates though - where NW has broken down for me is lack of new content that is worth playing.

    Every new end game campaign zone, since mod 4, seems like just an excuse to create new BiS gear targets that require new grind activities. And each new grind activity has become more time consuming and cumbersome than the last, with only scant nods to real story telling inserted.

    The sense of exploration that many of the other games listed above have in common is absent from the end game content in NW (with the possible exception of mod 8 - the Mantol Derith map was very cool, if a bit on the small side). It's all about combat zones, and grinding. Lots of pointless, time wasting grinding, in pursuit of loot that will, inside of about 12 - 18 months (at most) be rendered obsolete by the next new BiS set of gear targets, in a guaranteed even more soul sucking grindfest of a campaign zone.

    I stopped active play when it was clear what mod 10 was. I'm only sticking around on the sidelines to see what/if/when meaningful new stuff, like a new race or class, are added.

    The only other thing keeping me logging into Arc is the Arc Quests - an easy, not terribly time consuming way to gradually earn Zen for free.

  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,289 Arc User
    Mostly agree with the sentiments expressed except for IZ categorizing Tedium of Dragons as being in any way good.

    I would also add that the removal of soft caps from stats has created a situario6 where geared players really don't have a good point to feel they've 'arrived' and less geared players can't ever truly catch up and it us impossible to make content that both can enjoy.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    pitshade said:

    \I would also add that the removal of soft caps from stats has created a situario6 where geared players really don't have a good point to feel they've 'arrived' and less geared players can't ever truly catch up and it us impossible to make content that both can enjoy.

    That's a good point I hadn't considered before. I'm sure it contributes in no small way to the run-away buffing that the developers stated they're working to address. It may be wiser to reintroduce stronger diminishing returns but have a process in place to regularly re-evaluate the curve as the power progression continues (making smaller adjustments, not radical overhauls, every few modules).

    Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)

    Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
  • btairbornebtairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    All they need for the Legendary Ring grind is what they do in DDO for raids. 20th completion pick your choice reward.

    Also, Neverwinter may give the flavor of AD&D, but other than that it fails miserably. Luckily I don't play if because I need to feel like I'm playing AD&D otherwise I'd go back to DDO.
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User

    All they need for the Legendary Ring grind is what they do in DDO for raids. 20th completion pick your choice reward.

    Also, Neverwinter may give the flavor of AD&D, but other than that it fails miserably. Luckily I don't play if because I need to feel like I'm playing AD&D otherwise I'd go back to DDO.

    If DDO would update their graphics, I'd go back.

    I aim to misbehave
  • superent666superent666 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    @ironzerg79 Fan of Salvatore...hehe...well, I must admit to having read all his novels, too...and so I was excited to see Demogorgon, the monster that made the archwizard of Menzoberanzan pee himself but was -really- disappointed in the trial-format...I had expected some epic fun scary dungeon experience...not literally a (HE-like) "trial". But at least you only had to do it for a fixed amount of times (20 Gold to get the weapon-set...never mind the +5 rings). That seems to be different for the new trial (making keys doing HE (aw please no) or fishing (yikes) etc. OR....buy keys...in order to be allowed to GAMBLE with either a. your time spent not having fun or b. your money...both options suck-.-).
    It would have been a fun gimmick if they had done some cut-scene where Drizzt reads one of his (in-)famous diarrhe..erm diary entries ...with no escape option...that would have made me laugh so hard I would´ve fallen off the chair....:D some fun for the nerds...:)
    Btw...I´ve lost all hope in WotC (basically ever after ed. 3.5) since they now fired the one writer that was better than the whole club of old men combined -> Erin M. Evans. But meh...

    I agree with a lot of what karakla1 and you and also pitshade have said. Especially I am a fan of the dynamic combat animations...no toon looks like they´re afflicted with a stick up their bums...I even like the funny waddle of my cw...the aesthetics are great, too (especially the new stuff)...sound is GREAT...that is why it is so sad that the core game design sucks so hard it hurts. Aesthetics cannot make up for that in the end, really. The better a map looks the more sad I am about it.

    My theory is that the devs know exactly what players do not like/feels like punishment more than anything else.
    I think it´s a leadership issue. I also cannot believe most devs didn´t know communication like the one on the dungeon key change wouldn´t cause a shitstorm (it´s just downright impossible!). I also cannot believe they don´t know this shitstorm isn´t made worse by a ton of other things implemented lately and also to come with mod 10b. Waste of time to name them -it´s obvious. Yes, players will do those things and put up with HAMSTER decisions anyways ....up to a point! (heck, even I did at least 3 hours worth of HE in mod 10 although I firmly believe they are an idiotic waste of my time as well as the devs time...I try to rationalize by telling myself I´m doing this while keeping up with a friend in GB on skype or finally going to improve my funny english by talking to guildies on ts who speak other kinds of funny english...:D).
    But apparently their leadership is pushing the nonsense to a breaking point - continuing to forcefully apply the same (moronic) template to everything. Defiling the devs work as well as players´ gaming experience. They deserve better and players who love this game still do, too.
    So maybe they can figure out how to effect a change in leadership and untangle their game design from this moronic path or the game will circle the drain. It needs a U-turn. It would be a damn pity and a really sad waste.
    In case they make all these decisions democratically and are currently wondering why players are pissed of...well, nevermind then...:P
    And the Zen-shop....holy cow-.-...that shovel is a good example...it´s like a restaurant dishing out bad food and then having the audacity to SELL you some pill helping you to better stomach the spoiled haggis. How about some items that won´t make me feel like an idiot for buying them....some FUN stuff...I never regretted buying a purple account unlock kitten mount back then.

    I´m still working towards the FBI-requirements...loot sucks but I want to do this with a friend/guild. Been waiting so long for a single new challenging dungeon. It was a relief for me to completely opt out of the new armor set (not even restoring the boots from HE)...and from what I know it will be a relief to opt out of the new weapon set, too. So yah...there´s something seriously wrong with the game design from my perspective if it makes you feel better to just....let it go.

    So last but not least some idea - not a new one I´m sure: maybe you cm´s with strumslingers help might organize some fun community events with nifty rewards. Might be a good instant Band-Aid after all the different kinds of recent rewards fiascos:

    Why not organize some guild competition...run a specific dungeon or skirmish naked (specify which one and what "naked" means as well as other rules). Guild teams run the dungeon and post a video as proof. The team doing this in the shortest amount of time (maybe amount of deaths factoring in as well) wins. They get nice prizes and their guild as well (for coffer). Lesser but still nifty prizes for the top ten and (importantly) there should be other nifty prizes being handed out randomly amongst all participants not in the top 10 so everyone has a shot at something good. One suggestion for rewards: baaaags! Fits the theme, too...:P
    Traipsing around in underwear in a dungeon, wiping repeatedly and being screamed at by guildies seems like more fun than running around in circles doing HE, digging up relics etc. even if bad luck let´s you end up with nothing more than a few junk rewards...:) No? Maybe something else then?
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    If lotro didnt sux at the end, I would go back... honestly I dont even know where it is now, they lost alot of players, my older server isnt even around anymore.. that tells you something.

    It was at one point a great game.. sounds familiar enough right?

    Im telling you, the addition of xbox and ps4, all but killed this game.. not in the companies cash flow, but in the hearts and minds of the players, we already lost a ton on pc, they will go through the same flux on the consoles, once they see the HAMSTER of mod 10 foward.. ITs just not a fun game since these decisions were made.

    They feel emboldened and empowered, to basically do whatever the HAMSTER they want to atm.. because of that cash flow.. Instead of using it, to you know make a better game, all they are doing is find more and more ways to squeeze and squeeze.

    Once upon a time, game makers , made fun games, you paid for the right to play them.. now they make HAMSTER HAMSTER games, with gating mechanics forcing you to spend money for the right to play them.. WHAT the HAMSTER happend to gamers and game developers..

    I want to go back to 1981 and play my zork and other infocom games again. =P


  • litaaerslitaaers Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 871 Arc User



    On the negative side, you guys really have this sick fascination with having players grind things out.


    The first beer I drink is great. The second beer might be better. The third is pretty good, and so on. But (and probably more likely in college about 20 years ago) if you challenged me to drink an entire case of beer to earn some prize, I'd try it. Why? I don't know...I'm dumb? I like dumb things? Or I'm just super competitive and like a challenge. Anyway, after 24 beers, I'm sick of it. I feel sick. I look sick. And I'm miserable. I swear off of beer, that I never want to do it again.

    That's what your content feels like. You're choosing quantity over quality, then you're forcing people to over-indulge to the point where it makes them want to puke, in order to get any sort of reward.

    This may get me roasted, but...

    If an item is supposed to be rare and powerful, why does EVERYONE have to have it, and NOW? You only need to grind if you absolutely need it now (or before the amount of time it would take to find something historic in RL).

    If they are such game changers, they should be disallowed in PVP. In PVE, its you against the world. Not everyone is supposed to be Gaston.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    litaaers said:

    If an item is supposed to be rare and powerful, why does EVERYONE have to have it, and NOW?

    Because in these games, from a story and lore perspective, we're all the central hero. It's one of the suspensions of disbelief you have to make to fully immerse yourself. While we're playing a massively multiplayer game, when you suspend disbelief, it's your character that is at the center of everything.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • litaaerslitaaers Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 871 Arc User

    litaaers said:

    If an item is supposed to be rare and powerful, why does EVERYONE have to have it, and NOW?

    Because in these games, from a story and lore perspective, we're all the central hero. It's one of the suspensions of disbelief you have to make to fully immerse yourself. While we're playing a massively multiplayer game, when you suspend disbelief, it's your character that is at the center of everything.
    While for the story, that rings true, I would wager that more than half of the people voicing negative emotions in this thread don't give a hairy HAMSTER 's hindquarters about the story aspect of it. Being *able* to acquire it, sure. Having a god-like artifact one week/month after it enters the game, not so much. But that is just my view of things.

  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    I have never complained about not having the latest and greatest whatsoever..

    I dont even have a legendary mount, I would rather pump another ten million into a alt, then worry about that sort of stuff.

    I just expect reasonable grind, 25 wins in edemo was ok.. buying 1000 keys for a triple rng chance at the new raid.. not so much.

    See the difference?

    Its a matter of expectation and perspective.

    With edemo, I could grind out multiple weapons for all of my alts.. in the new raid, if I got really lucky, one alt would have it.. WTF is that about.

    This isnt the story or lore books, its a mmo, in the end , some things you can get , some things you cant. If they keep the level of rng for the new weapons, most poeple wont, which actually is ok with me.

    But it comes down to.. do they want us playing the new stuff or not? Because darn, for the world of me, its more or less seems like they dont, they just want to market this to 100 whales.. get thier money and move on.. IS That all we will get going foward? whale material?

    No one else matters? Unless I spend 1k a month with them? Is that what it boils down to?

    This game cannot be for me if thats the case, I am a "steady" spender, but its all small transactions, between 10-20 dollars every month give or take for the last 3 years.

    Do they not want my business and that of thousands like me? Do they not care at all?

    That is what it boils down to I guess, if not.. then it defentily is time to look for a new game, Most subs are quite happy to get that sort of money from people every month , month over month over month for years. In return they dont throw cash grabs at you for ridicolous amounts and gating.

    Sometimes I think f2p was the worst thing that has ever happened to mmos.

  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,368 Arc User
    Free to play is what is intended for open play style and to have fun and some progressions made.
    then they put "time-gated", Progression wall, requirements, and upgrades and only way to have character to grow and we had no choice when we are in corner backed up, feeling pinch of spending just to unlock.

    then it isnt Free to Play game, and that is bait and switch pay to advance to play.
    sure, it is free to play, but once they play free mode up to 70th level, thier times ended when they hit "paywall", they leave for other games.

    old micromanagement concept was for cosmetic appearances, to have cool looking mounds, more bank slots or choice of different companions,
    now it is pay for character progressions, keys, refine wards, and undeletable/unsellable bags that steals our inventory slots when we need more rooms.
    they made it worst with more clutters with bounds, non-bounds, and unstackable items.
  • solbergxsolbergx Member Posts: 654 Arc User
    I really laugh about whining on NW, I played a game from 2003 and bosses appeared every 4 hours, and the drop was rare and nobody complained. You could upgrade an item weapon or armor up to 20+, and there was a chance it could downgrade or break, even with a protection item bought with credit card it could brake and if you had an item at +19 and it breaks you had to find or buy the item and start at level 1 again and nobody complained.
  • btbsaul40btbsaul40 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 20 Arc User
    i gave up. i only tried a f2p because POE did it so well. at the end of the day, the monetization model is the real problem here. as others have pointed out, it's adversarial, and it's little more than a skinner box. the model is guiding the terrible design choices imo.
  • lyaiselyaise Member Posts: 491 Arc User
    OP - mentioned Elemental Evil module. This for me was the one that really negatively affected the game. As you say, the expansion was nothing of the sort - it was in fact a contraction. Sure there where a couple of new zones. However, most of the new ones where just old ones with different mobs, really poor.
    But any additions where overshadowed by the subtractions. I've yet to understand why an expansion module resulted in the removal of many dungeons, some of which took ages to return - But only as a shadow of what they used to be, 3-player run throughs with little enjoyment.
    It also saw the ruination of the SW Temptation spec, which they said would be treated as a special case with their changes to Lifesteal.

    The EE module saw the largest single drop of player numbers, something from which the game has never fully recovered. At the time promises where made about recovery actions, but these where either too little too late - or they simply didn't happen.

    Subsequent modules may have been better - heck they couldn't really have been worse - but by then the damage was done. Players had gone elsewhere, washed their feet on the way out, to invest their time (and money) in other games.

    Neverwinter is just a shadow of what it was - a vibrant optimistic community. Taking the bumps along the way, but with a confidence that things would be ok. That confidence has been drained over time, and could only really return with a complete rethinking by the development team, and more importantly, the company behind them.
    ...............vote for your favourite expansion..........
    "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
    ..............not this one then.............
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    One of the more interesting things about this change is the fact that the actual impact does not warrant the rage. At the end of the day, the majority of players won't feel it as much because of how they play the game. Nonetheless everybody kindly asks them to HAMSTER themselves. And that's solely due to two reasons.

    As @karakla1 stated, it's just the one nerf too much. At this point players probably don't even care any longer whether a change is even justified. If it touches their income oh so slightly, there's an outcry. Gateway, Leadership, Utility Enchantments, Salvage Changes. There have been so many nerfs and so little promised adjustments other than this "we're constantly monitoring" and "only have so much time" HAMSTER. At this point you have to accompany nerfs with an overhaul that shows players they are able to think globally and are willing to give something back immediately. If the players do only see nerfs all the time, they will leave.

    Second trust. Because of a) players do no longer think the devs are even willing to do something for them. And rightfully so. Everyone believing this change was all about "fixing a bug" is a complete jerk. It's one thing they are calling it a bug when it clearly developed into a feature over time, but this is a change because it clashes with something in a future update. The devs do no longer want players to preview chests because that would enhance progression by too much. This was a targeted change. The devs didn't care about the feature as long as it didn't hurt them.

    It also creates a dangerous atmosphere of "us" versus "them". Seasoned players know how it was back in mod 1 and 2 when they didn't do enough to ban dungeon exploiters. Everyone was doing it, because HAMSTER them. You didn't get banned for it. And what can you really say to those fed up? That the devs will eventually take steps to right the ship? Sure...

    Sorry, but the credit is gone. It's either show or fold at this point. And if you have nothing to show, then kindly go HAMSTER yourself.​​
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,289 Arc User
    " I've yet to understand why an expansion module resulted in the removal of many dungeons, some of which took ages to return - "

    I left in mod 4 and only recently returned but I think the reason behind EE was sound although the implementation was poorly done. One thing was power creep, raising the level cap allowed them to rebalance the content, although as I said upthread, removal of diminishing returns sabotaged this down the road. Secondly after 5 mods of players turning their noses up at new armor sets, it seems fairly obvious that the insane hit point stacking was intended to male the old sets obsolete. Player skill and again, power creep limited this at least as far as BIS was concerned.

    Preumably then, the old dungeons were pruned to limit the work needed to get the new paradigm up and running, with a promise of later return. Cryptic being Cryptic, those plans mostly fell by the wayside - which is why nebulous promises of better loot in chests only fuel the flames on the current furor.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • mrvincent1959mrvincent1959 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
    Elemental Evil was a massive module. They took on way more than they could chew. That said, the game feels empty despite all these new campaigns.

    HEs are no replacement for skirmishes and dungeons. I fear they will destroy these skirmishes and dungeons when they are brought back. Look what they did to CN.

    I would like to see these skirmishes and dungeons brought back as is, but with a multi-tierd difficulty progression of some type.
    twitch.tv/kaligold
  • lyaiselyaise Member Posts: 491 Arc User
    This was Elemental Evil:

    Review:
    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/634/view/reviews/loadUR/656/Neverwinter-Module-6-Elemental-Evil-Is-A-Disappointment.html

    Developer response:
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9213383-neverwinter:-looking-into-elemental-evil

    EE launched April 2015. steam player number for the following months:
    May 2015 -21.31%
    June 2015 -11.99%
    July 2015 -9.59%

    Now that's not the whole playerbase, which is near impossible to track, but it does give trends, and shows a drop of over 40%
    following EE, (not sure how many of these are bots).

    Now subsequent months will show short term increases as modules where released, (followed by declines). But these are percentages of the reduced player numbers after Module 6 and are therefore smaller.

    ...............vote for your favourite expansion..........
    "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
    ..............not this one then.............
  • kvetkvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    I spent the last week or so downloading various other games, and @ironzerg79 is right - NW really is one of the most intuitive interfaces and most fluid combat systems out there. I only sampled F2P games (I'm not interested in subscription-based games - and no, VIP is not a subscription in the sense I mean since it can be acquired for free if a person is willing to grind for it). I found the "competition" good in some ways but very poor in others - the reason I haven't already jumped ship is that the important features for a first impression: intuitiveness of the UI, easy of play (moving, combat), basic character animations, etc - all are more or less on par or WORSE (much worse in some cases) than Neverwinter.

    So, I definitely second Zerg's opinion from above (I've spared everyone the long-scroll by not quoting it yet again :) ). Neverwinter really is, at it's core, a good game despite it's flaws. The problem is NOT the game itself, the problem is - again, to boil Zerg's argument down - the way the game is managed.

    I've said it a million times - Cryptic is mismanaging Neverwinter. They say "you are heard" or that they read the forums, or that they value our feedback - and perhaps the developers themselves do - but when it comes down the how the game is managed at a higher level than "x% damage vs Y% damage: bug or tooltip error?" they really don't listen to, hear, or value our feedback at all. In this case, actions speak much louder than words. They've shown by their actions that they don't listen or value our input in any real way. Instead they make choices without taking a customer-centric view or considering their words and actions from an outside-in perspective. This key change is just the latest example.

    They can have the best game in the industry, but if they destroy their reputation and drive customers away because of mismanagement and (even the perception of) outright deceit, the game will eventually fail.

    1: It should not have been called out as a bug (and therefore people who clicked Decline - which is probably about everyone - called exploiters, by inference if not explicitly)
    2: No change should have been made to chest systems until the new loot system was also determined.
    3: Both changes should have then been rolled out at the same time.

    At that point - this change would have been one customers could stomach. Some would still complain, but it wouldn't be perceived as an outright money grab and worse, blatant deceit. Again: The solution here is for Cryptic to take an outside-in, customer-centric view of it's product, communication, and management of Neverwinter. Important to note: Only customers can give an accurate assessment of whether a company is customer-centric, a company itself cannot make such a judgement of itself with objectivity.

    I'll make the suggestion once more: You should create a sort of customer advisory board (CAB), most well-run businesses have one. I've served on many such boards myself. They're important and valuable both to the company and to the customers. No doubt any member of such a board would be willing to operate under NDA - and would be more than willing to provide you with very tangible and useful advice. I would STRONGLY urge Cryptic to consider implementing such a board.

    @strumslinger @panderus @mimicking#6533

    Post edited by kvet on
  • mrgiggles651mrgiggles651 Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    kvet said:


    I'll make the suggestion once more: You should create a sort of customer advisory board (CAB), most well-run businesses have one.

    remember class advocates? the bug-testing crew?

    I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    kvet said:


    I'll make the suggestion once more: You should create a sort of customer advisory board (CAB), most well-run businesses have one.

    I don't really agree with this. There is no good way to select those people, and I saw several (not kvet) that ask for the same and I really don't think they are what the game needs.
  • kvetkvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    I do remember the class advocates and I was part of the bug testing crew. The former was a failure, the latter was successful for a while but it ultimately failed too. Why? Because Cryptic failed to hold up its end of the deal and because those initiatives were not blessed by the powers that be such that they could effect real change. A CAB would suffer the same fate, of course, if not sponsored from within by someone with authority.
  • vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    they cant learn from their mistakes, dev fluctuation at cryptic is too high for that. i dont get it, how is it even possible that dev just leave for another company at some point. they all have release clauses? No dev want to work for cryptic without it? Amenar is perfect example. His changes werent even on live, werent finished and he just leaves for another company....lol

    another mistery for me is how it is even possible to see so many new players still around, at pug que for elol for example. This game has horrendous reputation around internet. its more than 3 years old free to play game, what newbies expect to experience here? i will never start a game which is more than three years old and f2p the whole time, i am sure. i am european, so maybe some good american PR and marketing to lure new playes work well there....

  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    Depending on where you live this might look strange, but it's normal procedure for the US market.​​
This discussion has been closed.