[PC] PvE Increasing Tactitian DPS in MOD 10

david · September 2016

Hello all;

Im currently playing full tactitian GF. After mod 10 realease, im saving my free respec to move into the DPS side but always within the tactitian tree. I have been waiting for new guides and builds being published but havent found any so far, although i see many GF in game playing like this, altough at very high ilvl.

My toon is 2,6k , did not improve it more since it was enough to tank orcus with sucess. Since i deal literally no damage, i have zero campaign boons. It was quite a pain to level it soloing, enough^^.

Basically in party i got 135k life, 24k def (without underdark rings proccing but SH boon included), 6k recovery. Offensive stats non exist

, just use arpen sh boon so this one is maxed in this way.

Using agument companion, all silveries in offensive and azures def slots. My enchants are most of them r7, just 3 offensive r8.

Weapons are elemental fire, I found no reason to use twisted, but I got the resources to get them already, if needed.

I would need help in which feats would you choose for increaseing DPS while keeping tactitian at a decent level.

Also, untill which point would you lower densive stats (recovery, defense) in order to start working on power and crit.

Once i have clearer vision of the situation, ill start working to increase lvl.

Thanks you for your feedback.

Regards

David

oliboyph · September 2016

Are you talking about solo play or pve? Getting twisted will help you get a lot of power, you'll also want some arm pen, so if you have that guild boon it would be better to switch to arm pen instead of power. For feats, you can try getting powerful attack and crushing pin. Other than that there's not much you can do to add to your dps since the big dps feats are the rank 4-6 feats in the conqueror path.

flyingleon · September 2016

I am a tactician with 15 feats in conqueror (Improved Vigor, wrathful warrior and jagged blades) and I have no problem to do daily in all campaigns except the mod 10 one. I have not tried the mod 10 yet. But I got quite some boons already and I think I have better gear than you.

I think one important thing is that you do not need high defence any more in mod 10. Aiming for 60% damage resistence is more than enough. So you can stack more power or crit to improve your damage.

Another thing is that what rotation and power you use in solo. I use combat superiority and steel grace for class features. I first use ITF (35% +15% buff), if daily up + VM (maybe another 30% buff), then enforced thread to mark, then I basically weapon master strike packs of mobs. Use another single target encounter (knee breaker could be the hardest) and crushing surge to finish left over.

flyingleon · September 2016

@oliboyph, besides the capstone of conqueror, do tier 4th and 5th feats in conqueror important? I read the tool tips, I don't see them as a big deal.

oliboyph · September 2016

flyingleon said:
@oliboyph, besides the capstone of conqueror, do tier 4th and 5th feats in conqueror important? I read the tool tips, I don't see them as a big deal.

You are right, they are not that big a deal, I just should have just said the other feats that can add damage

.

david · September 2016

Hello,

thank you for the feedback. Could any of you suggest a feat distribution, for both heroic and paragon?. I am thinking to go into the temporay HP thing, what do you think? Is it any usefull? is all i can take from the conqueror tree i think.

Also, I tried orcus with 55%DR (swiched def sh boon for hp one, so got 170k hp) and could not do it, he drains my life with his hits even with shield up, before i can recast the dailie.Are you sure 60& DR% is more than enough for big bosses?

What about recovery
? how much would be needed?

Regards

David

sadus671 · September 2016

Hi David,

I'm primarily Conqueror and that best fits with my play style/common group make up.

Build Link - nwcalc.com/index.html#/gf?b=2xhq:wt5jgo:9kwh:9g5v4,1li350i:1uu50z1:150u000:1500000&h=0&p=smr&o=null

I have about 65% DR w/ 130k Hps and tank Orcus multiple times Daily.

I've not played Tac much, but I'm curious on your skill set up and rotation. (As I think your survival is more dependent on Steel Defense than DR % or Hps)

My Class Skills Are:

- Guarded Assault (Also my Artifact Power to kick off Crushing Pin)
- Steel Defense

Encounter Are:

- Commander's Strike
- Iron Warrior
- Into The Fray

My typical rotation is:

- Into The Fray
- Mark Orcus
- Walk Forward Guarding and Attacking with Agg Strike.
- Take First Swing (Sets off Crushing Pin & Guarded Assault)
- Use Fighter's Recovery
- Weapon Master Strike
- *Commander's Strike
- Refresh Into The Fray
- Return to Guarding & Attacking with Agg Strike
- Use Dailies as they become available and use Encounters while under protection of Steel Defense.

* I sub in Iron Warrior if I'm lower on health. (You could also use Enforced Threat if you are having Stamina Regen issues)

Orcus hits fairly slowly, so you should be able to time your use of Dailies between hits. So as long as you are not getting immediately one shot (even while blocking), you should be able to recover any lost health and rebuff group while under Steel Defense. After a hit or two I'm usually full AP again ( I assume with Tac Capstone.. 1 hit = full AP... otherwise what's the point)

Thanks,

Forge@sadus671

sadus671 · September 2016

flyingleon said:
@oliboyph, besides the capstone of conqueror, do tier 4th and 5th feats in conqueror important? I read the tool tips, I don't see them as a big deal.

I would say no... if you aren't going for full Conqueror capstone then the extra 5% from Tactical Superiority is not very significant (just bonus along the way to capstone) and you'll be using Weapon Master Strike vs. Cleave as Swordmaster.

I use Staggering Challenge, but that's because I use Knight's Challenge on bosses who don't hit hard. (Basically every boss that isn't Orcus or Fang Breaker Bosses)

Although, what going full Conqueror vs. being Tac or Prot is you are down a baseline 30% damage before gear/enchantment selections.

flyingleon · September 2016

david#2060 said:
Hello,

thank you for the feedback. Could any of you suggest a feat distribution, for both heroic and paragon?. I am thinking to go into the temporay HP thing, what do you think? Is it any usefull? is all i can take from the conqueror tree i think.

Also, I tried orcus with 55%DR (swiched def sh boon for hp one, so got 170k hp) and could not do it, he drains my life with his hits even with shield up, before i can recast the dailie.Are you sure 60& DR% is more than enough for big bosses?

What about recovery
? how much would be needed?

Regards

David

I use the following feat, and I am a human with 3 points in weapon mastery (dunno why the link does not work for human). But I have no idea why you can not tank Orcus with more HP but less DR.
nwcalc.com/index.html#/gf?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,13ix56i:1pu5000:1000000:1zu5501&h=1&p=ivn&o=0

david · September 2016

Thank you very much for all the input.

@sadust671. The first thing to say is, without shield up, orcus 1 hit KO me, and most of the players I think, unless you are def buffed with DCs AA or similar. My current setup is Shield Talent+Steel Def.; then ET+ITF+KV/CS. When casting dailies I got time to cast 2 encounters (or mark/ToI+1 encounter) inbetween orcus atacks. On paper you can cast 3 atacks with steel def, but reality is that with some minor lag/delay/desync orcus gets you in 1 out of 4 casts rotation when trying to cast 3, so I am in the safe side and cast just 2.

When I tanked orcus reducing my DR to 55% and increasing HP, I was using ET, ITF and CS. I have to mention that AP gain without KV is noticiable lower than with it. Without KV I need 3 orcus hits to full-fill the AP globe-sometimes even 4. Interesting you saying that without tactician capstone you fill AP in 1-2 hits, when I need the same going full tactician+KV. This is the main reason for going tactician, if you can have the same with conqueror, why is not everyone going your way...¿?¿?

The thing was that with lower DR%, each hit received with shield up took like 25-30% of my HP, and he managed to drain my HP before I could recast fighters recovery.

I have only tried this once; I mainly play pug games and people is not happy of their tank dying, you know. I will try to make a team of friends and repeat it. But what mostly surprised me is that I was losing so much life with shield up--and 55% DR is not that low, is it?

Regards

David

sadus671 · September 2016

david#2060 said:
Thank you very much for all the input.

@sadust671. The first thing to say is, without shield up, orcus 1 hit KO me, and most of the players I think, unless you are def buffed with DCs AA or similar. My current setup is Shield Talent+Steel Def.; then ET+ITF+KV/CS. When casting dailies I got time to cast 2 encounters (or mark/ToI+1 encounter) inbetween orcus atacks. On paper you can cast 3 atacks with steel def, but reality is that with some minor lag/delay/desync orcus gets you in 1 out of 4 casts rotation when trying to cast 3, so I am in the safe side and cast just 2.

When I tanked orcus reducing my DR to 55% and increasing HP, I was using ET, ITF and CS. I have to mention that AP gain without KV is noticiable lower than with it. Without KV I need 3 orcus hits to full-fill the AP globe-sometimes even 4. Interesting you saying that without tactician capstone you fill AP in 1-2 hits, when I need the same going full tactician+KV. This is the main reason for going tactician, if you can have the same with conqueror, why is not everyone going your way...¿?¿?

The thing was that with lower DR%, each hit received with shield up took like 25-30% of my HP, and he managed to drain my HP before I could recast fighters recovery.

I have only tried this once; I mainly play pug games and people is not happy of their tank dying, you know. I will try to make a team of friends and repeat it. But what mostly surprised me is that I was losing so much life with shield up--and 55% DR is not that low, is it?

Regards

David

Thanks David for the information.

It could just be a gear different between us as well. What I can get away with... may not be viable for yourself.

Here is a screen of my current gear.

I also have 1200 Action Point Gain in that's not captured in the screen, with a total of 26.5%

I'm also wearing an Action Point Necklace @ 4% every 3 seconds and I use the Action Point Gain Boons.

As you can see I have approximately 70% DR

There are a couple of other things that I do that I did not mention before... I often use my Wheel of Elements to gain Temp Hps initially in the fight. I also have Drowned Set that gives me some hp points regeneration. I have about 10% Life Steal that also helps keep my HPs up.

I do not use Knights Valor. As often DPS will get nailed by Orcus's cleave. DPS need to know not to get in front of Orcus (if you are often PUGing via the Public Queue... then you get some lesser experienced players).

Orcus simply hits too hard for you to be absorbing direct hits as well as indirect damage from DPS via KV. Maybe if we were Protection with full defensive companions... but sine neither of us are... we need DPS to not be reckless.

Hope that helps explain the different in our respective experiences.

Thanks,

Forge

david · September 2016

Hi again,

just tested again Orcus with 55% DR, definetelly he takes 25-35% of my HP when hit hard (I got 170k hp). Tanking was sucess because DC was healing me all time, I could have handle it without extra healing in this particular team, but not in all parties.

Im pretty sure I can do it with 65% of DR.

Yes my AP gain is null. Good tips you gave me, thanks. But again, if you can refill AP globe in the time that orcus hits twice, dont see any reason to be tactician.

Could you post your feat tree, please? Thanks Forge.

Regards
David

flyingleon · September 2016

I think there is still a few thing to test for the capstone, martial mastery.

Being a tactician you could at least serve two things to your party. 5% more damage and more action point generation for the whole party.

greyhawk · September 2016

Tactician really lost its appeal for me personally with the ItF nerf. With the old ItF I never cared about my damage. I just cared about keeping the boss on me, and maximising my ItF buff (OP sigil, stacked Def on companion and myself, DC buffs etc). Now that I only need 50% DR that's a LOT of stat points and gear to rework...

The only thing to put stats into for me are offensive stats. I may want more HP's at some point, but I've never cared for Deflect. And Life Steal only needs to be so high. That's why so very many GFs are going the Conqueror route now. We can tank as good as any other GF, but we can also do significant damage. While I've yet to figure how to top the charts it's pretty routine for me to be top 3 in edemo.

For GFs of a certain item level - say 2.7k+ - they can tank the whole game as Conq. The extra AP gain of Tactician just isn't worth the huge drop in potential damage. I see myself more as support DPS instead of as a tank now. And it's a LOT of fun! I don't have the new Commanders Strike yet, but that seems to be a bit too much and I'm sure it'll be killed soonish.

sadus671 · September 2016

@

david#2060 said:
Hi again,

just tested again Orcus with 55% DR, definetelly he takes 25-35% of my HP when hit hard (I got 170k hp). Tanking was sucess because DC was healing me all time, I could have handle it without extra healing in this particular team, but not in all parties.

Im pretty sure I can do it with 65% of DR.

Yes my AP gain is null. Good tips you gave me, thanks. But again, if you can refill AP globe in the time that orcus hits twice, dont see any reason to be tactician.

Could you post your feat tree, please? Thanks Forge.

Regards
David

Hey @david#2060 ,

Below is my current Feat Build.

nwcalc.com/index.html#/gf?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,1li350i:1uu50z1:150u000:1500000&h=0&p=smr&o=0

sadus671 · September 2016

greyhawk#1973 said:
Tactician really lost its appeal for me personally with the ItF nerf. With the old ItF I never cared about my damage. I just cared about keeping the boss on me, and maximising my ItF buff (OP sigil, stacked Def on companion and myself, DC buffs etc). Now that I only need 50% DR that's a LOT of stat points and gear to rework...

The only thing to put stats into for me are offensive stats. I may want more HP's at some point, but I've never cared for Deflect. And Life Steal only needs to be so high. That's why so very many GFs are going the Conqueror route now. We can tank as good as any other GF, but we can also do significant damage. While I've yet to figure how to top the charts it's pretty routine for me to be top 3 in edemo.

For GFs of a certain item level - say 2.7k+ - they can tank the whole game as Conq. The extra AP gain of Tactician just isn't worth the huge drop in potential damage. I see myself more as support DPS instead of as a tank now. And it's a LOT of fun! I don't have the new Commanders Strike yet, but that seems to be a bit too much and I'm sure it'll be killed soonish.

I agree @greyhawk#1973 ,

I think the additional AP gain was more important in the OP Bubble Forever world (When GF's were valued as Buff Bots). Most "uber" daily powers have been nerfed.... I can't think of a class that depends on a high % of their damage or a build that is dependent on daily powers. Maybe Executioner TR's and Buff/Debuff DC's, but I find they generate AP pretty quickly on their own.

I went Conq basically to speed up runs... people want to do dungeons FAST!, especially content that is being farmed. I generally do about 30-40 million damage on a CN run. Usually puts me at 2nd or 3rd on Paingiver. Just depends on the DPS in the group.

CN run takes about 10 minutes in a typical group.

Currently Fangbreaker Island is the only content that a Tac GF is desired in my experience. That's because an OP is tanking. This is definitely not a requirement, but does makes the dungeon "easier".

At David's current ilvl he's not going to be running that content successfully. By the time he is ready, he can always respec....

Just my 2 cents... right now he needs to farm content and generally improve his gear.

Thanks,

Forge

greyhawk · September 2016

I agree Forge!

Tact is great still, and I would probably still be that if I wasn't prepping for the mod 10 changes. And I wasn't 3.3k ilvl... I think Prot is great to start and til around 2.2k give or take. I think Tact is great til about 2.7k, and then GFs can really chose which tree to take from there.

I have not tried FBI yet, but I heard Conq can tank it. I'm prepared to go back to Tact though, if that's what my guild needs for successful runs.

schietindebux · October 2016

I switched to tactitian few weeks ago and the symbiosis from tact capstone and buffer DC leads to perma daily, AA being 24/7 up. Nice when facing turtle etc.
You also can tank those bosses, no need for an OP, but it's hard missing stamina at boss 1and 2 being leached and not able to block.
So OP, DC and GF is the most stable Combo.
Maybe tact cap plus 15 points conqueror would be the better deal in case you have DR maxed.

david · October 2016

Thank you all guys for all the feedback.

I have the same feeling than you, thats the reason I made this thread. At my ilvl, 2645, I dont have any motivation to improve this toon being pure tactitian since mod 10 release, getting it to 3k would not improve the party performance by much, imo.
Also I wouldnt take the conqueror path for 2 reasons: first, i already got 3 dps chars; second, when i run CN with a dps GF, he can tank, but the feeling is not the same as with a tactician, everyone has to take much more care, acting less confident, and if I run it with my DC, well the AP gain is so lovely from tact. The run is faster with tactician, thats it.

@schietindebux , something like what you suggest, some points at conqueror and modifing gear is what im looking for. In fact my dream would be:

-From conqueror I am thinking in: Improved Vigor (is it really usefull?), wrath full warrior and Jagged Blades.
-From Protector:Plate Agility and Shield Defense.
-Tactitian: Which ones would you pick with the remaining points?

I am not expert in GF, so may be what im suggesting is not possible. If so, what would be the minimum tactiian feats to pick, and where would you put the conqueror points?

I would like to leave def at 70%, all bonus included. Although my main concern is, how much recovery would you guys aim for, i got 6k power now.

I run with augment companion, my plan is to move to bonding, 3x50% bondings, 150% bonding bonus.

It would be also very usefull for me to see with artifacts and gear are you using. (btw, orcus set is not an option xdd)

Thank you guys for your support.

Regards

David

schietindebux · October 2016

david#2060 said:
Thank you all guys for all the feedback.

I have the same feeling than you, thats the reason I made this thread. At my ilvl, 2645, I dont have any motivation to improve this toon being pure tactitian since mod 10 release, getting it to 3k would not improve the party performance by much, imo.
Also I wouldnt take the conqueror path for 2 reasons: first, i already got 3 dps chars; second, when i run CN with a dps GF, he can tank, but the feeling is not the same as with a tactician, everyone has to take much more care, acting less confident, and if I run it with my DC, well the AP gain is so lovely from tact. The run is faster with tactician, thats it.

@schietindebux , something like what you suggest, some points at conqueror and modifing gear is what im looking for. In fact my dream would be:

-From conqueror I am thinking in: Improved Vigor (is it really usefull?), wrath full warrior and Jagged Blades.
-From Protector:Plate Agility and Shield Defense.
-Tactitian: Which ones would you pick with the remaining points?

I am not expert in GF, so may be what im suggesting is not possible. If so, what would be the minimum tactiian feats to pick, and where would you put the conqueror points?

I would like to leave def at 70%, all bonus included. Although my main concern is, how much recovery would you guys aim for, i got 6k power now.

I run with augment companion, my plan is to move to bonding, 3x50% bondings, 150% bonding bonus.

It would be also very usefull for me to see with artifacts and gear are you using. (btw, orcus set is not an option xdd)

Thank you guys for your support.

Regards

David

I would take at least 1 point in "take measure" to benefit from "wrathfull warrior" that way.
And I would invest in daunting challenge and united, since 15% damagereduction to the party plus Knight´s Valor leds to 65% damaegreduction, wich is pretty handsone in FBI.
Atm I run IV paragon, tbh I would prefer WMF and steelgrace, seems to be a better trade if I should compare.
Anyone knows if triple mark from tab+Threatning Rush+ Enforced Threat is from any use for the group dps?

mamalion1234 · October 2016

YOu can be whatever you want but the most important is to know your primary role is defender.
BE conqueror but i call you into the party to hold threat if you can do it with your damage good.

TACTIcian capstone is very good also the extra 5% from the inspiring leader.
THE ap you give to your members while you take damage results to more dailies for them and for you.
THat means for classes have hard hitting dailies or utility dailies= more damage and and and and.
THEY are not all with primary artifact sigil of devoted.

I NEVER tested is the truth the bonus ap you get if you have for example 130% dr vs 80% dr or less.

tankmaister · October 2016

Are you guys using rising/sudden rings on companions or rings with stats?

greyhawk · October 2016

My current companion, epic Sellsword, doesn't have a ring slot. When I've used companions with ring slots I started to really dislike the loss of constant stats from using Sudden rings. I don't use them any more, to be honest. A big boost to stats for 8 of every 30 seconds is worse than a good setup of constant stats. Just my opinion...

And just to throw this out there... I've never tanked Orcus using Steel Defense. Even as a 2.5k Tactician.. I always forgot to slot it, and I just got used to staying Guarded and throwing out the occasional ItF or ET when timing allowed.

schietindebux · October 2016

since my focus is tanking I don´t use them in my companion, I need a stable ammount of defenive stats, in case I would be focussed on dps I would use the 4k crit ring or power ring depending on my stats

sadus671 · October 2016

tankmaister#5354 said:
Are you guys using rising/sudden rings on companions or rings with stats?

The rising rings can be useful, if you have a fast hitting companion. As you need one that can get those stacks up quickly and keep them up.

The Sudden Rings I have also stayed away from.... as unless you are running with a BiS full group that is going to kill bosses in a few seconds... you are much better off having sustained stats.

There was a bug that allowed Sudden stats to last the full duration of Companion's Gift, but that has been fixed for a while now... I do use Brutality on a few toons... I figure large spikes in power are worthwhile... as it give me some extra immediate damage to secure aggro. I would definitely not use Sudden Precision though.. as you want your Crit % constant.

tankmaister · October 2016

@sadus671 Mind if I ask few questions: Why are you using drowned weapons instead of twisted? Also what guild boon you are using and what's your ilvl currently? I play on ps4 and our gh is soon getting it's third boon but those are still "babyboons"

Currently I'm standing at 3.1k ilvl but my gear is defensive heavy and it takes some time to transfer into more offensive style when I need to swap some gear/artifacts/companions/rings/enchantments...well basically make a whole rework on my toon

I'm thinking that at this point it might actually be better if I would stay on tactician and buff my grps with additional ap gain and 5% higher fray untill I get my gear fixed and I would actually do good as dps too.

[PC] PvE Increasing Tactitian DPS in MOD 10

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