Why would you need PVP rewards if you don't PVP? There is nothing on that side of the fence a PVE player needs, or should even want.
I really don't understand this rant, PVE players do not need to PVP, they do not even need to give it a sideways glance if they don't want to. So whats the problem? In the three years I've been here, I have never PVPed. I have never been tempted to, or enticed to with gear. And I have never felt myself lacking because of it.
At least one boon structure take a lot of conq. shards to build. Its the structure that has the Power Boon at lvl 3 (barracks?). Conq. shards are very very difficult to farm without lvl 70 pvp, at least in the quantities neeed to upgrade the barracks before the 4th of never.
First of all, the OP was only concerned with achievements. And second a guild isn't a solo activity. If the guild is forcing non-PVPers to PVP just to complete structures. Then it is doing it wrong. One would hope that if a guild REALLY wants those structures it can do so, by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP.
So, completely disagree with you. There is no reason for PVE players to PVP if they dont want to.
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
One would hope that if a guild REALLY wants those structures it can do so, by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP.
So, completely disagree with you. There is no reason for PVE players to PVP if they dont want to.
So, in a guild with, let's say 30 active members, of which there are only 2 (!) active PvP members you think it's reasonable that the 2 should shoulder the entire weight of the boon structure? Sorry, but that's nonsense!
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Sorry for the late reply, but real life often intrudes on gaming matters unfortunately.
Not specifically the Seer's quest but the Campaign Tree one obtains from the Seer quest...
Sorry, but this is friggin' bonkers.
You do not need to complete every single thing in the campaign tree if you don't want to. Don't want to do the PvP campaign, DON'T.
There is no meta reward for finishing every campaign. The rewards in the PvP campaign are primarily useful for playing PvP (and often not even that anymore).
Like I said to the OP, it's not Cryptic's job to cater to your OCD tendencies. The campaign is in there because they need to put access to the campaign into the UI because it exists. That doesn't mean anyone is forcing you to do it.
With the regards to the OP complaint, this is totally correct. No one forcing to PvP.
Why would you need PVP rewards if you don't PVP? There is nothing on that side of the fence a PVE player needs, or should even want.
I really don't understand this rant, PVE players do not need to PVP, they do not even need to give it a sideways glance if they don't want to. So whats the problem? In the three years I've been here, I have never PVPed. I have never been tempted to, or enticed to with gear. And I have never felt myself lacking because of it.
At least one boon structure take a lot of conq. shards to build. Its the structure that has the Power Boon at lvl 3 (barracks?). Conq. shards are very very difficult to farm without lvl 70 pvp, at least in the quantities neeed to upgrade the barracks before the 4th of never.
First of all, the OP was only concerned with achievements. And second a guild isn't a solo activity. If the guild is forcing non-PVPers to PVP just to complete structures. Then it is doing it wrong. One would hope that if a guild REALLY wants those structures it can do so, by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP.
So, completely disagree with you. There is no reason for PVE players to PVP if they dont want to.
1. A guild can't force anything, a member can always leave. 2. "by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP" -- This is completely unpractical and has no grip with reality. Let me ask you, for example in your alliance, if you want to build barracks next, can you ?
For geared players power is a very useful boon (probably the most useful out of the options), for leveling XP is welcomed. In PvE guilds there are usually no PvP inclined members or very few of these. It will take a decade for them to get the shards.
One would hope that if a guild REALLY wants those structures it can do so, by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP.
So, completely disagree with you. There is no reason for PVE players to PVP if they dont want to.
So, in a guild with, let's say 30 active members, of which there are only 2 (!) active PvP members you think it's reasonable that the 2 should shoulder the entire weight of the boon structure? Sorry, but that's nonsense!
That seems like a guild problem, not a player problem.
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
That seems like a guild problem, not a player problem.
It very much is, yes. But you can't force PvE guilds to invite PvP players (to which they have zero to offer) just to level up a primarily PvE structure. That's just nonsense.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
2. "by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP" -- This is completely unpractical and has no grip with reality. Let me ask you, for example in your alliance, if you want to build barracks next, can you ?
Build it, yes, and I think even one or two upgrades worth, since the initial requirements aren't so much. It is the next thing I intend to do.
And that is almost entirely on my back. Like 95%+ shard packs and the rest BID wins. We've got one other guy who queues domination when he's on, but he's a grad student and doesn't log in very often.
2. "by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP" -- This is completely unpractical and has no grip with reality. Let me ask you, for example in your alliance, if you want to build barracks next, can you ?
Build it, yes, and I think even one or two upgrades worth, since the initial requirements aren't so much. It is the next thing I intend to do.
And that is almost entirely on my back. Like 95%+ shard packs and the rest BID wins. We've got one other guy who queues domination when he's on, but he's a grad student and doesn't log in very often.
Yes, at SH 9 you will unlock the plot and will be able to build up to rank 4 structures, and rank 5 at 10, you have enough for 1 & 2. Then what ? About 3.k for rank 4 and total of 11k short for 5, the alliance as of now can't help there (maybe by then it will be able to, but lets assume you are stuck now), and encouraging your PvP inclined members (the whole 1.5 of you) wont get you 11k shards, even if you use a whip as encouragement. That's why I say it's not realistic. In practice you will end up buying shard packs, and with some guildies trying to help out with as much PvP as they can (in more general case) even though they wouldn't do it if it was not for the shards.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
2. "by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP" -- This is completely unpractical and has no grip with reality. Let me ask you, for example in your alliance, if you want to build barracks next, can you ?
Build it, yes, and I think even one or two upgrades worth, since the initial requirements aren't so much. It is the next thing I intend to do.
And that is almost entirely on my back. Like 95%+ shard packs and the rest BID wins. We've got one other guy who queues domination when he's on, but he's a grad student and doesn't log in very often.
Yes, at SH 9 you will unlock the plot and will be able to build up to rank 4 structures, and rank 5 at 10, you have enough for 1 & 2. Then what ? About 3.k for rank 4 and total of 11k short for 5, the alliance as of now can't help there (maybe by then it will be able to, but lets assume you are stuck now), and encouraging your PvP inclined members (the whole 1.5 of you) wont get you 11k shards, even if you use a whip as encouragement. That's why I say it's not realistic. In practice you will end up buying shard packs, and with some guildies trying to help out with as much PvP as they can (in more general case) even though they wouldn't do it if it was not for the shards.
I'm aware of the limitations, but there's so much Inf to gather between here and there, it's pretty abstract. When you can only upgrade slowly, certain specific things are not worth worrying about until you get to them. The devs might change something dramatically. Solo queueing might save PvP (lulz).
It's still probably better to have a rank 3 Barracks than none at all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nope, it's not realistic for a small guild to build an entire Barracks. Not realistic for a small guild to do Strongholds, period, and I do not recommend it for anyone. But I will keep tilting at that windmill.
Still, this thread started out being about the OUTRAGE that the devs would force people into PvP to complete a campaign, not to build a Barracks. I agree, you want a Barracks, then you gotta suck it up one way or another. You want to complete a PvP campaign when you don't like PvP... get real and get over it.
2. "by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP" -- This is completely unpractical and has no grip with reality. Let me ask you, for example in your alliance, if you want to build barracks next, can you ?
Build it, yes, and I think even one or two upgrades worth, since the initial requirements aren't so much. It is the next thing I intend to do.
And that is almost entirely on my back. Like 95%+ shard packs and the rest BID wins. We've got one other guy who queues domination when he's on, but he's a grad student and doesn't log in very often.
Yes, at SH 9 you will unlock the plot and will be able to build up to rank 4 structures, and rank 5 at 10, you have enough for 1 & 2. Then what ? About 3.k for rank 4 and total of 11k short for 5, the alliance as of now can't help there (maybe by then it will be able to, but lets assume you are stuck now), and encouraging your PvP inclined members (the whole 1.5 of you) wont get you 11k shards, even if you use a whip as encouragement. That's why I say it's not realistic. In practice you will end up buying shard packs, and with some guildies trying to help out with as much PvP as they can (in more general case) even though they wouldn't do it if it was not for the shards.
I'm aware of the limitations, but there's so much Inf to gather between here and there, it's pretty abstract. When you can only upgrade slowly, certain specific things are not worth worrying about until you get to them. The devs might change something dramatically. Solo queueing might save PvP (lulz).
It's still probably better to have a rank 3 Barracks than none at all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nope, it's not realistic for a small guild to build an entire Barracks. Not realistic for a small guild to do Strongholds, period, and I do not recommend it for anyone. But I will keep tilting at that windmill.
Still, this thread started out being about the OUTRAGE that the devs would force people into PvP to complete a campaign, not to build a Barracks. I agree, you want a Barracks, then you gotta suck it up one way or another. You want to complete a PvP campaign when you don't like PvP... get real and get over it.
I agree. And the OP outrage is totally unjustified.
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited September 2016
You may not like PvP, or do it often, but your friends may. Go with friends. Stop trying to solo it all. It's an MMO not an MSO.
If you don't like the 1v1 PvP event going on now either that's fine. Let the rest of us enjoy it, please.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
Not to rain on your parade, but "going with friends" ends up facing fully geared pre-mades. If that's your definition of fun, then so be it. Just realize then that you are a distinct minority.
EDIT: To clarify in general, I find the idea to complain about a pvp campaign if you are not interested in PvP ludicrous! The OP is wrong in pretty much every way possible! There have been a lot of people posting along the lines of "you don't have to pvp if you don't want to if all you are interested in is PvE" and I am having issues with that sentiment, especially as it is objectively false and proven as such. Asking PvEers to shelve out hard earned AD in the millions just to buy PvP shards that they then need for a PvE structrue is asinine!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
There have been a lot of people posting along the lines of "you don't have to pvp if you don't want to if all you are interested in is PvE" and I am having issues with that sentiment, especially as it is objectively false and proven as such. Asking PvEers to shelve out hard earned AD in the millions just to buy PvP shards that they then need for a PvE structrue is asinine!
Barracks drama is also a want/need paradigm. Likewise absolutely everything in videogames, although people tend to lose track of that perspective.
Yes, it's the best structure for geared players. It's useful. None of these things are wrong statements.
Do you "need" it, or just "want" it is a different story.
We played the game just fine when there was no such thing as a Barracks.
Does a Barracks make you stronger so you can blow up monsters even more easily? Sure!
Does your ability to have fun in Neverwinter hinge entirely on whether or not your guild has a Barracks? I do take issue with anyone who would answer that in the positive.
I get that the structure of MMOs is pretty much to wave things in your face and go, "Nyah nyah, you don't have this and you reallllllly want one, don't you? Don't you? Well, it can be yours with just these 27 simple steps and a lot of luck (or pay me)!"
Recognizing this is the first step to being able to say, "No".
If anything, the game needs the exact opposite, ie players who love pvp should not be punished to play it. PvP could use meaningful rewards that aren't locked behind huge grinds. RP for instance. Why is pve so rewarding compared to pvp is beyond my understanding. It's like one half of the game is purposefully left as a wasteland because the other half throws a tantrum when pvp gets some attention, and the devs validate this childish behaviour...
I love pvp but i can't play it because playing pvp goes against the purpose of the game, which is character improvement, and there is none in pvp - even the campaign is really underwhelming, at best. So it would be nice if playing pvp wasn't that punishing in the first place.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I love pvp but i can't play it because playing pvp goes against the purpose of the game, which is character improvement, and there is none in pvp - even the campaign is really underwhelming, at best. So it would be nice if playing pvp wasn't that punishing in the first place.
I am going to PvP this weekend, even if it kills me!
hence Cryptic is trying out ideas to end its PvP deathspiral
That deathsprial is caused by a lack of players in general, combined with an utterly inadequte game engine, resulting in an impossible matchmaking system (you just can't make a matchmaking system work, if the player pool is too small). It will not end. And there is nothing Cryptic can do to stop it. All they can do is slow it down.
While that statement in itself is true, it is also a massive red herring. The barracks are in the game. They are the best option for geared players. Why should one population have a harder time getting it, participating in content they have no interest in, just to get it? Conten, I might add, for which the game is utterly unsuited.
If anything, the game needs the exact opposite, ie players who love pvp should not be punished to play it. PvP could use meaningful rewards that aren't locked behind huge grinds. RP for instance.
I can agree with that sentiment. A solution for that would be PvP gear, entirely independant from PvE activities. Offer a srtater set at 70 and add the rest as achievements.
Make sure that boons, mounts, companions and enchantments don't count and you are most opf the way there.
I can guarantee you, however, that a LOT of the PvPers in this game would take issue to that solution. They like their power creep just as much as the PvEers, disregarding that said power creep is one of the main reasons almost no one wants to PvP anymore. The initial investment is just too high for most to even bother.
Why is pve so rewarding compared to pvp is beyond my understanding.
Because this is primarily and conceptionally a PvE game. The PvP is just a money grab add on, to cash in some whales and nothing more. It serves no other purpose and that shows in the mehcanics. The netcode can't handle it, the combatmechanics can't handle it and the class emchanics can't handle it. It's one of the reason I get upset if there are balance changes in regards to PvP that affect PvE (like the GF changes). They are piintless. They won't lead to better balance and destroy the actual game in the process.
I must admit, I too hate PVP. But it's not just in this game. Yes, I like to play WITH other people in dungeons/skirmishes but not all the time as I do enjoy solo content but not AGAINST other players in PVP.
So I confess, I have no idea why the OP has started this rant as he/she is completely wrong! On my main account I have 2 level 70 characters (and deleted countless others) that, while not overwhelming in the item level department, they do ok thank you! I have never felt the need to PVP and certainly have never felt forced to do so. I sincerely hope this never changes.
Having said that, I do have a lot of sympathy for players who do enjoy PVP. I've played this game for over 2 years and in that time have spoken to other players and from what I've seen, they are not really catered to despite this being an MMO. That does need to be addressed but as a PVP issue. I don't want it impacting on the PVE aspect (sorry if that's selfish).
I noticed someone else in this thread mention that other games have separate PVE and PVP servers. It makes total sense to have separate servers for PVE and PVP as both types of players get what they want and I do know of at least one game that does this successfully. Not sure if Cryptic would go for it though. It does seem like a win-win situation - for the players!
No offense, this argument has no logical basis outside of one's own OCD for completion. The PvP section of Neverwinter is a small fraction of the game itself considering the massive amount of quests,areas, and endgame gear for PvE. So you can walk through this game without ever touching PvP in truth. As far as guild structures that require certain PvP related items, no one is forcing you to be in a guild that caters to one side or the other only, there are guilds that do both as I run one. So again, you never need to touch PvP as there will be others glad to do that part for you. Oh and btw PvP is no more masochistic then PvE raids where your group wipes and goes at it again to come with a better understanding and complete it. There is nothing wrong with those who want to pit themselves against living breathing opponents, some do it for gloating yes but a true PvPer does it because he realizes that the person on the other end is hopefully smarter than a game boss with its timed pre programmed moves and will provide them with the challenge of an unpredictable opponent thus upping the challenge. I for one don't PvP but casually but I sometimes encourage my guild members to do so to assist in handling fast paced combat.
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So, completely disagree with you. There is no reason for PVE players to PVP if they dont want to.
1. A guild can't force anything, a member can always leave.
2. "by encouraging its PVP inclined members or by help from alliances and not on the backs of players uninterested in PVP" -- This is completely unpractical and has no grip with reality. Let me ask you, for example in your alliance, if you want to build barracks next, can you ?
For geared players power is a very useful boon (probably the most useful out of the options), for leveling XP is welcomed. In PvE guilds there are usually no PvP inclined members or very few of these. It will take a decade for them to get the shards.
And that is almost entirely on my back. Like 95%+ shard packs and the rest BID wins. We've got one other guy who queues domination when he's on, but he's a grad student and doesn't log in very often.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
About 3.k for rank 4 and total of 11k short for 5, the alliance as of now can't help there (maybe by then it will be able to, but lets assume you are stuck now), and encouraging your PvP inclined members (the whole 1.5 of you) wont get you 11k shards, even if you use a whip as encouragement. That's why I say it's not realistic. In practice you will end up buying shard packs, and with some guildies trying to help out with as much PvP as they can (in more general case) even though they wouldn't do it if it was not for the shards.
It's still probably better to have a rank 3 Barracks than none at all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nope, it's not realistic for a small guild to build an entire Barracks. Not realistic for a small guild to do Strongholds, period, and I do not recommend it for anyone. But I will keep tilting at that windmill.
Still, this thread started out being about the OUTRAGE that the devs would force people into PvP to complete a campaign, not to build a Barracks. I agree, you want a Barracks, then you gotta suck it up one way or another. You want to complete a PvP campaign when you don't like PvP... get real and get over it.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
If you don't like the 1v1 PvP event going on now either that's fine. Let the rest of us enjoy it, please.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
EDIT: To clarify in general, I find the idea to complain about a pvp campaign if you are not interested in PvP ludicrous! The OP is wrong in pretty much every way possible!
There have been a lot of people posting along the lines of "you don't have to pvp if you don't want to if all you are interested in is PvE" and I am having issues with that sentiment, especially as it is objectively false and proven as such. Asking PvEers to shelve out hard earned AD in the millions just to buy PvP shards that they then need for a PvE structrue is asinine!
Yes, it's the best structure for geared players. It's useful. None of these things are wrong statements.
Do you "need" it, or just "want" it is a different story.
We played the game just fine when there was no such thing as a Barracks.
Does a Barracks make you stronger so you can blow up monsters even more easily? Sure!
Does your ability to have fun in Neverwinter hinge entirely on whether or not your guild has a Barracks? I do take issue with anyone who would answer that in the positive.
I get that the structure of MMOs is pretty much to wave things in your face and go, "Nyah nyah, you don't have this and you reallllllly want one, don't you? Don't you? Well, it can be yours with just these 27 simple steps and a lot of luck (or pay me)!"
Recognizing this is the first step to being able to say, "No".
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I love pvp but i can't play it because playing pvp goes against the purpose of the game, which is character improvement, and there is none in pvp - even the campaign is really underwhelming, at best. So it would be nice if playing pvp wasn't that punishing in the first place.
I mean, kills pixel-me.
You know.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Make sure that boons, mounts, companions and enchantments don't count and you are most opf the way there.
I can guarantee you, however, that a LOT of the PvPers in this game would take issue to that solution. They like their power creep just as much as the PvEers, disregarding that said power creep is one of the main reasons almost no one wants to PvP anymore. The initial investment is just too high for most to even bother. Because this is primarily and conceptionally a PvE game. The PvP is just a money grab add on, to cash in some whales and nothing more. It serves no other purpose and that shows in the mehcanics. The netcode can't handle it, the combatmechanics can't handle it and the class emchanics can't handle it. It's one of the reason I get upset if there are balance changes in regards to PvP that affect PvE (like the GF changes). They are piintless. They won't lead to better balance and destroy the actual game in the process.
So I confess, I have no idea why the OP has started this rant as he/she is completely wrong! On my main account I have 2 level 70 characters (and deleted countless others) that, while not overwhelming in the item level department, they do ok thank you! I have never felt the need to PVP and certainly have never felt forced to do so. I sincerely hope this never changes.
Having said that, I do have a lot of sympathy for players who do enjoy PVP. I've played this game for over 2 years and in that time have spoken to other players and from what I've seen, they are not really catered to despite this being an MMO. That does need to be addressed but as a PVP issue. I don't want it impacting on the PVE aspect (sorry if that's selfish).
I noticed someone else in this thread mention that other games have separate PVE and PVP servers. It makes total sense to have separate servers for PVE and PVP as both types of players get what they want and I do know of at least one game that does this successfully. Not sure if Cryptic would go for it though. It does seem like a win-win situation - for the players!