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[PC] What approach do we want to take with CW balance changes?

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  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    diogene0 said:

    urabask said:

    I do not agree storm spell and smolder to be part of the paragons.
    one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.

    i.e. Something you NEVER do if you're a storm spell CW.

    FFS the reason you're trying to use to justify why they shouldn't do it is the reason it needs to be done.

    Also, Smolder is already part of its paragon's general powers. Critical Conflagration is not and I'd argue that Combustive Action should be added to MoF's general powers as well. Everyone takes MoF for the debuffs and not being able to easily spread Smolder makes no sense. All you really lose by slotting those two powers is Chilling Presence anyways so once again you're in the spot where you do not have many if any actual reasons to use other class features because you're boxed in by the awkward design that should have been part of smolder in the first place.

    Do you really play CW?


    The problem with buffing is that it's currently too powerful in this game. Like, way, way too powerful. Having buffs not letting you do any kind of dps isn't a bad thing imo. The last thing the game needs is an even faster clear meta. So as long as buffs and debuffs stacking is causing "bosses" to be demolished in under 5s, there is no way a MoF CW should be allowed to slot chilling presence instead of swash of destruction. Not being able to easily spread smolder, as you put it, is the very reason MoF isn't completely out of whack. I do agree that it would be interesting if it was integrated to the parangon itself, but not before the long standing buff stacking parties for 5s bosses problem is addressed.

    Basically, what you're asking for is a MoF thaum metagame. CWs would sacrifice maybe 25-30% of their dps to double the team's damage (assuming HV + MoF), and trust me, this is the very last thing the game needs right now.
    Spreading smolder is only a problem for trash mobs. MoF thaum can still slot Chilling Prescence and Swath of Destruction during boss fights and have no problem keeping up smolder. They just swap it out for critical conflagration when clearing trash mobs.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    urabask said:

    diogene0 said:

    urabask said:

    I do not agree storm spell and smolder to be part of the paragons.
    one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.

    i.e. Something you NEVER do if you're a storm spell CW.

    FFS the reason you're trying to use to justify why they shouldn't do it is the reason it needs to be done.

    Also, Smolder is already part of its paragon's general powers. Critical Conflagration is not and I'd argue that Combustive Action should be added to MoF's general powers as well. Everyone takes MoF for the debuffs and not being able to easily spread Smolder makes no sense. All you really lose by slotting those two powers is Chilling Presence anyways so once again you're in the spot where you do not have many if any actual reasons to use other class features because you're boxed in by the awkward design that should have been part of smolder in the first place.

    Do you really play CW?


    The problem with buffing is that it's currently too powerful in this game. Like, way, way too powerful. Having buffs not letting you do any kind of dps isn't a bad thing imo. The last thing the game needs is an even faster clear meta. So as long as buffs and debuffs stacking is causing "bosses" to be demolished in under 5s, there is no way a MoF CW should be allowed to slot chilling presence instead of swash of destruction. Not being able to easily spread smolder, as you put it, is the very reason MoF isn't completely out of whack. I do agree that it would be interesting if it was integrated to the parangon itself, but not before the long standing buff stacking parties for 5s bosses problem is addressed.

    Basically, what you're asking for is a MoF thaum metagame. CWs would sacrifice maybe 25-30% of their dps to double the team's damage (assuming HV + MoF), and trust me, this is the very last thing the game needs right now.
    Spreading smolder is only a problem for trash mobs. MoF thaum can still slot Chilling Prescence and Swath of Destruction during boss fights and have no problem keeping up smolder. They just swap it out for critical conflagration when clearing trash mobs.
    OK then, but it would leave room for another class feature, like chilling presence + arcane presence. Arcane presence is very strong, just not often used by SS CWs. You're looking at a 20% damage self buff for ice spells (not easy to achieve but doable with steal time), which would make MoF thaum the best of both worlds. Damage would be almost the same as SS, but you get crazy debuffs in addition. No way it happens.
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    diogene0 said:

    urabask said:

    diogene0 said:

    urabask said:

    I do not agree storm spell and smolder to be part of the paragons.
    one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.

    i.e. Something you NEVER do if you're a storm spell CW.

    FFS the reason you're trying to use to justify why they shouldn't do it is the reason it needs to be done.

    Also, Smolder is already part of its paragon's general powers. Critical Conflagration is not and I'd argue that Combustive Action should be added to MoF's general powers as well. Everyone takes MoF for the debuffs and not being able to easily spread Smolder makes no sense. All you really lose by slotting those two powers is Chilling Presence anyways so once again you're in the spot where you do not have many if any actual reasons to use other class features because you're boxed in by the awkward design that should have been part of smolder in the first place.

    Do you really play CW?


    The problem with buffing is that it's currently too powerful in this game. Like, way, way too powerful. Having buffs not letting you do any kind of dps isn't a bad thing imo. The last thing the game needs is an even faster clear meta. So as long as buffs and debuffs stacking is causing "bosses" to be demolished in under 5s, there is no way a MoF CW should be allowed to slot chilling presence instead of swash of destruction. Not being able to easily spread smolder, as you put it, is the very reason MoF isn't completely out of whack. I do agree that it would be interesting if it was integrated to the parangon itself, but not before the long standing buff stacking parties for 5s bosses problem is addressed.

    Basically, what you're asking for is a MoF thaum metagame. CWs would sacrifice maybe 25-30% of their dps to double the team's damage (assuming HV + MoF), and trust me, this is the very last thing the game needs right now.
    Spreading smolder is only a problem for trash mobs. MoF thaum can still slot Chilling Prescence and Swath of Destruction during boss fights and have no problem keeping up smolder. They just swap it out for critical conflagration when clearing trash mobs.
    OK then, but it would leave room for another class feature, like chilling presence + arcane presence. Arcane presence is very strong, just not often used by SS CWs. You're looking at a 20% damage self buff for ice spells (not easy to achieve but doable with steal time), which would make MoF thaum the best of both worlds. Damage would be almost the same as SS, but you get crazy debuffs in addition. No way it happens.
    You do realize that I said combustive action and not swath of destruction, right? i.e. a power no one uses because they're too busy slotting swath and critical conflagration or chilling presence. All it really does is make smolder deal a bit more damage and let dailies spread smolder.

    Arcane presence isn't used by SS CWs because chilling presence is significantly more effective and storm spell works out to something like 1/3 of their damage. So SS would get a similar buff to what you're suggesting if storm spell was made a general power.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,363 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    urabask said:

    diogene0 said:

    urabask said:

    diogene0 said:

    urabask said:

    I do not agree storm spell and smolder to be part of the paragons.
    one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.

    i.e. Something you NEVER do if you're a storm spell CW.

    FFS the reason you're trying to use to justify why they shouldn't do it is the reason it needs to be done.

    Also, Smolder is already part of its paragon's general powers. Critical Conflagration is not and I'd argue that Combustive Action should be added to MoF's general powers as well. Everyone takes MoF for the debuffs and not being able to easily spread Smolder makes no sense. All you really lose by slotting those two powers is Chilling Presence anyways so once again you're in the spot where you do not have many if any actual reasons to use other class features because you're boxed in by the awkward design that should have been part of smolder in the first place.

    Do you really play CW?


    The problem with buffing is that it's currently too powerful in this game. Like, way, way too powerful. Having buffs not letting you do any kind of dps isn't a bad thing imo. The last thing the game needs is an even faster clear meta. So as long as buffs and debuffs stacking is causing "bosses" to be demolished in under 5s, there is no way a MoF CW should be allowed to slot chilling presence instead of swash of destruction. Not being able to easily spread smolder, as you put it, is the very reason MoF isn't completely out of whack. I do agree that it would be interesting if it was integrated to the parangon itself, but not before the long standing buff stacking parties for 5s bosses problem is addressed.

    Basically, what you're asking for is a MoF thaum metagame. CWs would sacrifice maybe 25-30% of their dps to double the team's damage (assuming HV + MoF), and trust me, this is the very last thing the game needs right now.
    Spreading smolder is only a problem for trash mobs. MoF thaum can still slot Chilling Prescence and Swath of Destruction during boss fights and have no problem keeping up smolder. They just swap it out for critical conflagration when clearing trash mobs.
    OK then, but it would leave room for another class feature, like chilling presence + arcane presence. Arcane presence is very strong, just not often used by SS CWs. You're looking at a 20% damage self buff for ice spells (not easy to achieve but doable with steal time), which would make MoF thaum the best of both worlds. Damage would be almost the same as SS, but you get crazy debuffs in addition. No way it happens.
    You do realize that I said combustive action and not swath of destruction, right? i.e. a power no one uses because they're too busy slotting swath and critical conflagration or chilling presence. All it really does is make smolder deal a bit more damage and let dailies spread smolder.

    Arcane presence isn't used by SS CWs because chilling presence is significantly more effective and storm spell works out to something like 1/3 of their damage. So SS would get a similar buff to what you're suggesting if storm spell was made a general power.
    Arcane presence have use for some builds and also is good in some conditions. TEsting give more knowledge than to use as a bible a single guide.

    I have played and other games some powers looked like useless for pve but in pvp they had their use. SO a class why to change based on pve when you have and pvp to play?
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited September 2016

    urabask said:

    diogene0 said:

    urabask said:

    diogene0 said:

    urabask said:

    I do not agree storm spell and smolder to be part of the paragons.
    one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.

    i.e. Something you NEVER do if you're a storm spell CW.

    FFS the reason you're trying to use to justify why they shouldn't do it is the reason it needs to be done.

    Also, Smolder is already part of its paragon's general powers. Critical Conflagration is not and I'd argue that Combustive Action should be added to MoF's general powers as well. Everyone takes MoF for the debuffs and not being able to easily spread Smolder makes no sense. All you really lose by slotting those two powers is Chilling Presence anyways so once again you're in the spot where you do not have many if any actual reasons to use other class features because you're boxed in by the awkward design that should have been part of smolder in the first place.

    Do you really play CW?


    The problem with buffing is that it's currently too powerful in this game. Like, way, way too powerful. Having buffs not letting you do any kind of dps isn't a bad thing imo. The last thing the game needs is an even faster clear meta. So as long as buffs and debuffs stacking is causing "bosses" to be demolished in under 5s, there is no way a MoF CW should be allowed to slot chilling presence instead of swash of destruction. Not being able to easily spread smolder, as you put it, is the very reason MoF isn't completely out of whack. I do agree that it would be interesting if it was integrated to the parangon itself, but not before the long standing buff stacking parties for 5s bosses problem is addressed.

    Basically, what you're asking for is a MoF thaum metagame. CWs would sacrifice maybe 25-30% of their dps to double the team's damage (assuming HV + MoF), and trust me, this is the very last thing the game needs right now.
    Spreading smolder is only a problem for trash mobs. MoF thaum can still slot Chilling Prescence and Swath of Destruction during boss fights and have no problem keeping up smolder. They just swap it out for critical conflagration when clearing trash mobs.
    OK then, but it would leave room for another class feature, like chilling presence + arcane presence. Arcane presence is very strong, just not often used by SS CWs. You're looking at a 20% damage self buff for ice spells (not easy to achieve but doable with steal time), which would make MoF thaum the best of both worlds. Damage would be almost the same as SS, but you get crazy debuffs in addition. No way it happens.
    You do realize that I said combustive action and not swath of destruction, right? i.e. a power no one uses because they're too busy slotting swath and critical conflagration or chilling presence. All it really does is make smolder deal a bit more damage and let dailies spread smolder.

    Arcane presence isn't used by SS CWs because chilling presence is significantly more effective and storm spell works out to something like 1/3 of their damage. So SS would get a similar buff to what you're suggesting if storm spell was made a general power.
    Arcane presence have use for some builds and also is good in some conditions. TEsting give more knowledge than to use as a bible a single guide.

    I have played and other games some powers looked like useless for pve but in pvp they had their use. SO a class why to change based on pve when you have and pvp to play?
    Because no one plays PvP : \

    It's not like CW is some sort of PvP powerhouse damage wise either. Not even sure how you're trying to imply that making those class features part their respective paragons would negatively affect CW in PvP either.

    Also, Arcane Prescence would have to bugged to all hell to be superior to Chilling Presence :|
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    The only possible reason that arcane presence could be better than chilling presence is on the condition that chill stacks are falling off faster than you could stack them. This might occur in pvp due to Elven Battle decreasing the duration of chill stacks.
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    @thefabricant so somehow I just got lucky and pulled an epic owlbear cub from a pack in a lockbox. I know you've said it's got a place for low crit builds, but I follow your ss thaum/opp build very closely. I know as I get closer to 100% crit it will diminish in value. Right now I'm about 80% or so In combat... And about 3k Ilvl ( but pretty competitive in the dps area just from being informed about stat allocation - thank you ! )

    My question is... Do I keep this thing or should I sell / trade it for further upgrades ?

    More about my setup:
    Two r11 bondings, one r12
    Mostly lvl 9 enchants
    All artifacts to legendary or at lvl to upgrade to mythic ( just need some marks, etc. )

    I was thinking of working towards orcus set. Do you have any thoughts ? Right now it's 8 million on AH and it'll be a long time before I have that much buying power again
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    @thefabricant so somehow I just got lucky and pulled an epic owlbear cub from a pack in a lockbox. I know you've said it's got a place for low crit builds, but I follow your ss thaum/opp build very closely. I know as I get closer to 100% crit it will diminish in value. Right now I'm about 80% or so In combat... And about 3k Ilvl ( but pretty competitive in the dps area just from being informed about stat allocation - thank you ! )



    My question is... Do I keep this thing or should I sell / trade it for further upgrades ?



    More about my setup:

    Two r11 bondings, one r12

    Mostly lvl 9 enchants

    All artifacts to legendary or at lvl to upgrade to mythic ( just need some marks, etc. )



    I was thinking of working towards orcus set. Do you have any thoughts ? Right now it's 8 million on AH and it'll be a long time before I have that much buying power again

    Sell it, but don't switch to orcus. You lose more damage with the orcus set than you gain over all, due to its poor stat distribution.
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    Ty I appreciate it.
  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    Sell it to a Warlock in need of more dps.

    If there is such a thing.
  • arashjamarashjam Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    First of all, I see that people are fine with the fact that CW is not going to compete for top DPS. Why not? Why CW shouldn't be able to compete with a GWF? I believe every well-tuned DPS class should be competitive. Assuming that best builds are chosen and characters are played well, an HR with higher stats should be able to out-dps a GWF or a CW with a lower stats. For me, this is the definition of class balance. So don't say we don't expect CW to be a great DPS class.

    I think each DPS class has to have two feats in DPS and buff/debuff that can compete with the others. If you want diversity, a CW renegade should be able to give you as much buff as a buff/debuff DC. Then you see different mixes in each group and diverse builds. Right now, have 2 DC and 1 GF and you melt the Orcus and Lostmouth in no time (I am on Xbox so no ITF nerf yet!)

    As for all of these talks about nerfing Spell Twisting and Chilling Presence, I don't think devs can pull it off. They end up nerfing these without boosting the entire CW class. If Spell Twisting is nerfed, it will impact CWs A LOT.
    I don't play HR but based on the things I read even after the class balance still Trapper is the only viable optionin PvE. I think devs are trying to balance things but they are afraid to take drastic changes (which I believe is a good thing.)

    So please do not suggest devs that they can nerf any of these, as I am sure you will end up having a broken class that cannot compete in DPS at all (like TR in Mod 6-9). Unfortunately, it takes devs too long to fix something or balance a class, so my suggestion is this: IF IT WORKS, DON'T TOUCH IT!
    All is lost.
  • aaramis75aaramis75 Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    A bit late to the party, but here's my 2 cents for what it's worth (hint: about 2 cents):

    - based on HR changes, the approach from devs was to analyze the popularity (or lack thereof) of class powers, and try to encourage the lesser-used ones to be used, and in doing so slightly nerf the overly used ones in the process. For CWs, I suspect CP and Storm will both be under the microscope. As @thefabricant pointed out, there's a good chance CP will be "adjusted". Possibly Storm as well, although I hope not.

    - @thefabricant : I like the idea of making Storm and Crit Conflag baseline abilities for each tree. That would be truly amazing. However, I suspect it'll entail far more coding and work than Cryptic is willing to devote to class balance.

    - CW overall dps is in a pretty good spot, so I hope that they maintain that through whatever raising and lowering of powers they do. There's going to be a huge emphasis on CWs to test that out thoroughly and give good feedback when the time comes.

    - I'd love to see Swath and Crit Conflag working together, instead of only one or the other working.

    - I'd like to see Arcane Mastery looked at. Max 15% bonus is completely overshadowed and negated by CP which, combined with Icy Veins, provides an instant dmg bonus. To add insult to injury, AM stacks are very difficult to build in comparison.
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    aaramis75 said:

    - based on HR changes, the approach from devs was to analyze the popularity (or lack thereof) of class powers, and try to encourage the lesser-used ones to be used, and in doing so slightly nerf the overly used ones in the process. For CWs, I suspect CP and Storm will both be under the microscope. As @thefabricant pointed out, there's a good chance CP will be "adjusted". Possibly Storm as well, although I hope not.

    If you mean storm spell there's no reason for it to be under the micoscope.
    aaramis75 said:

    - @thefabricant : I like the idea of making Storm and Crit Conflag baseline abilities for each tree. That would be truly amazing. However, I suspect it'll entail far more coding and work than Cryptic is willing to devote to class balance.

    Coding for the game must be even worse than it seems if this would take a lot of work.

    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • lordnemesis1981lordnemesis1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 204 Arc User
    Regarding pvp:

    Regarding CC Build, low dps but great control:

    Correct the glacial movement feat, and do it work like in the past, or increase the base value of orb of imposition from 5 to 10%.

    In the past dev gived us an orb of imposition with a base value of 10% per level, + Glacial movement for a total cc of +100%...that was really too much in pvp.
    They they balanced the orb of imposition and gived us back the old 5% value.
    They Changed the TEB from a +200% cc resistance (+200% of your actual cc resistance ) to a FLAT +80%, and when they performed this modify, don't know if on purpose ( almost sure of this ) Glacial movement stopped working ( ninja nerf? ).

    So, from my point of view ( pvp in mind ) if i wanna do a cc build, i must be able to effectivly cc the enemy, not just repel them, but i must be able to use all my arsenal of cc power.

    So OR the old glacial movement OR the old value for orb of imposition.

    This will give to the CW the possibility, with a focused cc build ( very low dps ), to use in effective way his cc, not just a blink of eye or just a continuos spam of repel.
    TEB user will suffer cc much more less respect ppl without anyway, because the increase in our cc will not so high to bypass the +80% from TEB, but the increase in our cc will be visible without became overpowerd.

    Still find ridiculous that a Courage Breaker from a TR can control an enemy for 17seconds ( TR build focused on cc, even vs TEB) and a CONTROL Wizard can just spam repel when all the other form of his cc are destroyed by the TEB.

    For both DPS Build and CC Build

    Chill Mechanic.: because is this the main problem with Elven and our poor dps in pvp. Chill has a slow effect with him, that is reduced by the elven battle ( most ppl use TEB ). Remove the slow effect OR do it in a way that chill will not be affected by TEB.

    Why? All the other class can "buff" their dps, we too, thanks to chilling presence.

    The Problem: Chill and the slow effect.
    TEB reduce the Slow effect, and the debuff that caused it. The chill stack ( debuff on enemy )stay for so low thank to TEB that cw can't fully benefit from the dps buff of chilling presence, drastically reducing his capability of damage.

    Find a way to let the chill debuff ( i call it a debuff because the game see it like a debuff ) to not be affected by TEB, but not increase the duration of the chill stack, because if that may work in pvp, in pve will not be same ( mobs don't have TEB ( Trascendent Elven Battle ). So the best will be do chill immune to cc resistance, TEB will not work in it, cw will be able again to autobuff his dps in pvp.
    Attention: i've said CHILL EFFECT, not the FROZEN effect that come after the 6 stack , that one must remain like is now, otherwise in pve mobs that have cc immunity will be freezed, and we don't want it right? ( mmmm, well, can be funny....) and ppl in pvp must be able to reduce the duration of the FREEZE effect via cc resistance.

    Just this two for me, this will not affect in any way ppl that love pve, and for pvp will give a good dps boost and let the one that wanna focus on cc ( not just repel ) a way for do it .

    Of course a correction of all the other bug will be fantastic.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    Well, unfortunately based on the responses from Mimic King last Friday, I wouldn't expect a CW class balance pass for another few months, at the very least. Looks like the DC, then possibly the GWF are up next. And with Amenar gone, I don't have high hopes that it'll happen sooner than that.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • arashjamarashjam Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    I wanted to add that although Disintegrate hits really hard (as hard as Ice Knife) and most CWs are slotting this, it doesn't mean it has to be nerfed. My CW has 50k power, and with a T.Dread and a lot of external buffs the hardest Disintegrate hits is 2.7M (with "Focused Wizardry" which by the way is a weird feat; you get punished for choosing this feat) and this is the best case scenario when everything is aligned well (may be 3-4 times in an entire dungeon run).

    Now, compare it with how hard a GWF hits with its at-wills (NO COOL DOWN); same spec and it can hit for >4M in each hit when it is Unstoppable (at least 3-4 hits each time, that's more than 12M damage in less than 5 seconds). I think the reason CWs use DisInt so much is because every other single target power is useless. They can't come close to this power. So, if they want to nerf it, they should at least increase the base damage for other single target encounters like RE. CWs can keep up with GWFs until the boss fight, but then they get obliterated no matter how well they play.
    All is lost.
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    On the other hand you should regularly see 10+ million damage IBS.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    No just that there isn't much reason to nerf disintegrate when GWF has IBS hitting that hard.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • arashjamarashjam Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited September 2016

    I have never seen a 4 mill GWF at-will. I would love to know that secret.

    I've seen it hit for 6M+ (12:05)

    All is lost.
  • arashjamarashjam Member Posts: 29 Arc User

    That looks like crit stacks to me, not a 6 mill hit.

    Now this is over my pay grade! I thought the numbers you see are for each hit! On Xbox we have no external tool to look at our damage so apparently I know nothing in this field :(
    All is lost.
  • arashjamarashjam Member Posts: 29 Arc User

    I am not saying you do not have a point about CW damage. I have 2 posts asking for CW buffs. I am saying that it appears to be 5-6 hits of around 1 mill that on the screen adds up to over 6 mill. It is a weird display thing. If a GWF can hit for 4-6 mill with one at-will, I want to know how. I have not seen it on ACT or in-game.

    I understand your point. You guys on PC have ACT but on Xbox we are stuck with in game log which is VERY long and hard to use! I appreciate the help we get from PC players!

    By the way, I was talking with my friends who play HR as main and with IL ~3.6k (and lots of buffs) they say the highest they can hit is around 2-3M with a single hit. My point is, Disintegrate is not like a massive single target hitter when compared with other classes. Just because we don't have any other good single target power we think it's VERY powerful.
    All is lost.
  • metalicum1metalicum1 Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    CW is in a horrible shape currently. You might think that it is a competitive class because of that damage counter, but the truth is that in any party CW is completely useless. Here is several reasons why. (keep in mind that I am not talking about 4k ilvl Valindra Zerg run, but progress potential)

    1) As a pure DPS (let's say SS thaum) CW's hanging there against SW and GWF, but only and only on huge AoE stacks of mobs. (and I would argue that both GWF and SW are outperforming CW even there). The problem is that you don't really need huge AoE dps when you have SW or GWF in the party, because they can handle AoE just fine, but they perform considerably better on boss encounter, single target damage. And let's face it racing for DPS on giant stacks of mobs is fun and all, but it is not what we should think about when balancing classes.

    2) my 2nd point is an elaboration of the first one. If you want to be useful during boss battles (as a pure DPS), you have to have Focused Wizardry. and even then your best shot is to spam Disintegrate, Ice Knife, and maybe SudSto, chilling strike or so.
    At that point, your party SW is laughing to your face, smoking, drinking coffee, and doing twice the damage. As you can see the problem is not that current SS Thaum cannot compete on the damage counter, it is that it mainly does the damage when the party does not need it.

    3) the main idea of the class should have been control and support. As I see it, CW should ultimately be a support control class with an interesting pure DPS side build. Instead, currently it is only 1 pure DPS build and 1 almost pure DPS/buff, both which cannot compete with their party counterparts (with SW or GWF on pure DPS, and with Buff cleric as a MoF Renegade). This is, of course, because when **it hits the fans, the heart and soul of the class ("Control") does not work. Because it is not seen on the counter it is not as obvious, but by having its heart completely useless the class is suffering so much it cannot be redeemed until this is changed. Imagine, for example, a pure DPS class which gets 95% reduction on damage in dungeons. This is exactly what control wizard has in terms of his controlling powers. But it is even worse, because its DPS encounters and daily powers still has some control aspects, which makes the power more "expensive" (cooldown, lower damage...). Chill Strike is a great example of that, as it is a single target nuke which should do damage, but it also does STUN. the problem is that there is no stun in epic dungeons. Bosses dont care at all, and it is virtually useless to cast a single target spell into a crowd of 10-15 mobs, not even mentioning that you can barely see the stun because of the CC resist.

    4) The buffer option, Renegade, is currently playable only in 1 variation. Since you lose a lot of personal DPS, you should focus on the party, which means MoF Swath of Destruction, plus a a CritCon (I don't even have to mention here that the gear, stats, are basically identical for all CW builds currently). Still, I would much prefer to run with buff Cleric then with buff CW, because a) you cannot control which and when proc chaos magic, and b) the buffs are not that interesting to begin with. As a buffer/debuffer, CW is outclassed.

    So the point is that currently CW does not have a party role to play. As a DPS it must focus on AoE to be competitive, but than fails hard on boss encounters. As a buff/renegade it is easily outclassed by buff cleric (try to run GF, DC heal, DC buff, SW, and GWF, you will see how pathetic the CW's buffs are). As a controlled it fails hard because essentially nothing worth can be controlled even with all the Control boost you can get (Valindra set, Underdark boon, stats, etc.. ).

    My point is that currently, if you delete CW from the game, nothing of substance would be lost. The only area where CW can currently compete is pure AoE DPS, and as I argued, only with a build that the party does not need because of lacking single target damage.

    Is there a solution to this? No, not really. You can't reduce CC resist substantially in order to meet CWs' potential, because you would create an environment of constantly controlled enemies, as there is simply too much control effects in the game and too many control spells from different classes. Small CC resist reduction would also not help since There are not many items boosting your own control stats.
    The only quick option would be to introduce an item, not only specific to Control wiz, but also to a specific path (so that it is not abused by other paths, you have to commit), in this case Oppressor, which would boost control by 500-1000% in Epic Dungeons, raids and so on and also would give an option co control bosses a little.
    Then, instead of 0,1s you would get at least 1s of of both hard and soft control. You would also not need Spell twisting because rather than spamming encounters, you would need to time you strikes in order to maximize control.
    Aris Meyde CW MoF Renegade

    [PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    ^ Nicely presented, however the situation is even more complicated than that.

    1. CW's the only class that got the weakest DPS output per weapon damage. GWF making a couple of swings will easily outdps a CW's rotation.
    2. CW can only use the rotations, which have to be precise and super-time oriented, mechanized to a perfection practically, like a clockwork, in order to even produce a DECENT damage. In any game, if you put that much effort into a build and you run it like a clockwork only to get a medium-ish result, it's a major fail.
    3. CW were nerfed three times and most of the CW skils which are hard-hitters are currently super-stupid because of the non-critting nerf. That doesn't only nerf the potential crit, but also makes CW's critting ability that much weaker in comparison to the classes that use the Vorpal enchantment. The solution to that is vague at best because it requires getting more damage percentage output or more power.
    4. Dungeons circa mod5 are simply NOT made with CW's as the primary option. All of it is made for the tanking and healing, and still is. Epic mobs can easily kill a CW and will never get frozen to an extent where the CW's damage can do something. Not only they can't be frozen, but even those that can will get frozen for a very low amount of time, thus rendering the use of CW skills rather void. For instance Lair of Lostmauth is not made for a CW in mind since the enemies are rather tough and quite tanky, furthermore easily killed by other classes, but for instance Kessel's retreat is most definitely made for a CW in mind because other classes. It's actually a perfect place for a CW who operates on the OF + Chilling Presence combination. THE ONLY another dungeon that was CW-friendly was Spellplague, and that was when the game was actually more fun. CW's back then weren't that much of a DPS dealer, but there was a lot of combo in terms of controlling the mobs.
    5. Epic mobs nowadays can't be controlled and it simply doesn't pay-off to control the enemies anymore. THE CONTROL is DEAD. Even when you get a perfectly good CW controller, there will always be some crazy DC or GF who'll splash mobs around like it is a game of break the chess. You come along, perfectly position everything chess-wise in the game, and someone just comes and breaks all the figures, ruining a carefully planed strategy. That's why CW's gave up and are using Disintegrate and Ice Knife as the primary DPS dealing mechanics.
    6. The whole story about ruining the CW's damage goes downhill because they introduced the power stacking in the game. What's the deal with that? Power stacking up until it's the end of the days, COMPLETELY ruins the necessity to carefully planand build a character, all you need is a bunch of pets that give purpose to the most overused spells that you're going to use and call yourself "pro" in this game that's extremely broken.
    7. Increasing the Controlling Powers of the Control Wizard will RESULT in the crying PvP groups who'll cry every 2 sec, and increasing the power of the CW or simply returning it to the previous state when it could MAKE A CRIT would result in NOTHING MUCH unless the dungeons get a serious turn. After all,around 40-50% of the damage itself for a CW comes from the ability to hit a mob whilst it's frozen, and even that happens at every four years or so game-wise.
    8. The randomness of the Renegade ability is also super-stupid and whilst it is amazing in the longer run, it's also not that good overall since it doesn't do much for a player who's looking to make the team stronger. CURENTLY it's the best option to run a MoF rene for the sake of the team, but that's just because of the quality random increase in the power/damage that sometimes happen, sometimes doesn't. Most of the fights, especially with the high-leveled characters that run 100k+ power doesn't even last that long to allow more than two-three buffs, and more so than not the green buff will appear, standing there like a troll.
    9. CW has an amazing role in Tiamat, but who plays Tiamat anymore?

    As my final words on this matter, I've never seen a class getting ruined THIS MUCH in any mmorpg I've played. Sucks for me that I don't like any other class in this game since CW was SO MUCH fun to play when dungeons were appropriate and you didn't need a DC to lead your little hand for everything that tries to kill you in one or two hits. Devs said that they're gradually reduce the difficulty, but I don't see that happening YET.
    I thought that the game can't fall more than it fell in the MOD6, which was a TOTAL DISASTER, but apparently it can.
    Moral of the story - play like a HAMSTER, be a gwf/gf combo supported by a friendly DC, and slam that left-click like there's no tomorrow. And if you're good enough, you can play as a GWF completely solo, no question about it.

    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    Damage and survivability of a well geared, specced, and played CW is not what you are describing.
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