Chat/queue system

bladedge12 · September 2016

Hi every one I know I know "They are at it again." But I have a few things I think every one has a gripe about.

The first one
Why are words like got, have, it, going, fight, and to censored when put with other words?
To show you I said "I am going to %$^@ kessel so I can %$^@ blackice." Do you know what i put in? I put in "I am going to fight kessel so I can get some blackice." Look I get there are kids that play but how often are we going to say "Lets go." to someone it put it as "Lets %$^@" before the game bans us for bad words?

next
why do we have it so it can be set up so "leader rules." I get put into groups where the leader set it so they control everything no vote to kick no one to replace and the like then we do all the work as the leader jumps around doing noting we can't kick them but if we lax a little boom kicked. Then when we are at or killed the boss the leader goes "Kick kick kick kick all mine."

mordekai · September 2016

I don't know enough about the censoring thing to comment, but I think that the queue/boot system is something that needs a look at.
Have to say, I've never encountered the issue that you describe, but the insta boot on stuff like CN pisses me off.
I still don't know the exact purpose of a group leader outside of strongholds. I always imagined it was an old D&D convention that was kept in for old farts like me who remember when part of the table top fun was electing a group leader then ignoring everything they said.

Personally, I'd prefer that if a group boots a player they don't get reinforcements.
That you only get a replacement if they leave, or if they don't move for a certain amount of time they get a warning followed by the option to group to boot. Likewise if they keep you waiting at a door for xx time same. If they get a specific number of warnings (depending on length of dungeon..) group gets option to boot. If the game offers you the option, and you boot, THEN you get a replacement.
They also need to implement a "reduced boss loot drop" on groups that have vote dumped other players.

That system is pretty much off the top of my head and would need tweaking, but it would stop IL snobs from dumping "inferior" players and pals from dumping pugs at the end. (the two things about pugging that HAMSTER me off the most)

Frankly, it shouldn't NEED sorting out.
It's not PWE's fault that some people are dicks.

But as seems to be the increasing situation, someone needs to legislate for common courtesy.

asjohnson · September 2016

Sometimes kicking people is 100% needed though. Example: You run through all of CN, get to Orcus, your only Tank/DC gets disconnected, you wait 20mins, still no sign they are returning. So you KICK that person in hopes to get a new Tank/DC. Instead of a Tank/DC you get a fresh lvl 70 TR with a 2050 IL. You run Orcus to see if its possible w/o a Tank or DC....you get crushed. So are you telling me you wouldn't want to kick this weak person that literally just joined in the hopes of getting a Tank/DC so you can finish the dungeon? If you say no, then you are lying to yourself.

In conclusion, I 100% disagree that people shouldn't be able to kick people. It is needed, and should stay the way it is.

mordekai · September 2016

If they get disconnected they would stand still surely, which would automatically open the "This player hasn't moved for XX minutes, would you like to remove them?" option.

mordekai · September 2016

If you kicked and got a 2.5 IL TR instead of the needed Tank, would you just kick them?

If so it sounds like you are saying that you are OK with unfair kicking unless its you being affected.

I have never voted to kick someone who was an active group member because they weren't what I thought they should be.
I'd rather drop out myself and give the rest a chance at getting the required tank.

Don't call me a liar because you judge others by your own standards.

mordekai · September 2016

double post... sorry

reaper · September 2016

No what they are saying is the run is supposed to have 1dc,1tank,3dps. But sometimes when say your tank leaves then the game gives you a dps in its place for most master/epic dungeons this isn't going to work.

mordekai · September 2016

That's the queue system then. If the quest requires X number of Y class then dropouts of Y should be replaced with Y.

And before the usual "Do you realise that that would involve complex rewriting of code, etc..."
a) They are a SOFTWARE company, they employ programmers... I believe that "coding" is part of the job description.
b) It's not that complex. (It would simply be an extension of the queuing protocol that governs party make up on start.)

I maintain that sacking someone off who has potentially been queuing almost as long as the party has been playing without even a chance to contribute, simply because they're not what you want is a bit HAMSTER...

ecrana · September 2016

I agree with some of mordekai's ideas. Your idea to have the game determine when you can kick people based on length of inactivity is a good idea.

Kicking is definitely abused and in the case of CN I like to see how it goes before deciding if anyone shouldn't be there.

The fact that you can lose a tank in a dungeon and not it replaced by a tank is definitely a huge oversight by the devs. I don't feel it is IL snobbery that gets the new guy kicked most of the time. If you need a tank, you need a tank. It's that simple.

Also, kicking is not something that is only abused by high IL people. I've been kicked from baby dungeons right at endbosses for going too fast, doing too much damage, etc etc. Funny how these people had no problem cakewalking behind me for the whole dungeon though.

So kicking is abused on both ends of the spectrums. And this could be fixed if they let people queue solo if they want to run a quick baby dungeon.

mordekai · September 2016

I understand that while the queue allows replacements to mismatch the quota, its a problem, but I wager that for every instance of insta boot to find the appropriate replacement to meet the dungeon quota, there's half a dozen or more instances where someone gets kicked off a group for either not having the desired IL of the other players, or the other players are chums who want to keep the boss loot.

People can't use the "The dungeon says we need XX class... so we're booting you." as an excuse while disregarding the dungeons IL requirement.

"But the Dungeon says 2000IL..."
"HAMSTER that pal, you need 3K to roll with us..."

It's what's called having a double standard, and for those who aren't familiar with that term, it's generally regarded as a bad thing...

asjohnson · September 2016

mordekai#1901 said:
If you kicked and got a 2.5 IL TR instead of the needed Tank, would you just kick them?

If so it sounds like you are saying that you are OK with unfair kicking unless its you being affected.

I have never voted to kick someone who was an active group member because they weren't what I thought they should be.
I'd rather drop out myself and give the rest a chance at getting the required tank.

Don't call me a liar because you judge others by your own standards.

Did you not even read my post? lol smh. I said I would try to run with whoever we get, then if it is not possible THEN***** I would kick the new person in hopes to get the Tank/DC that we lost. my god get over yourself

sundance777 · September 2016

My favorite is people that kick players for not having the correct build of a particular class.

IMO, the kick function should just be removed, if you lose your Tank/DC and wait 20 minutes??? You could have rerun the first half again by then, which is more seals than you get by standing around at the boss door....

If you are going to PUG it, you get what you get. If you have specific requirements for your play style, find them and private queue instead.

bladedge12 · September 2016

mordekai#1901 said:
I don't know enough about the censoring thing to comment, but I think that the queue/boot system is something that needs a look at.
Have to say, I've never encountered the issue that you describe, but the insta boot on stuff like CN pisses me off.
I still don't know the exact purpose of a group leader outside of strongholds. I always imagined it was an old D&D convention that was kept in for old farts like me who remember when part of the table top fun was electing a group leader then ignoring everything they said.

Personally, I'd prefer that if a group boots a player they don't get reinforcements.
That you only get a replacement if they leave, or if they don't move for a certain amount of time they get a warning followed by the option to group to boot. Likewise if they keep you waiting at a door for xx time same. If they get a specific number of warnings (depending on length of dungeon..) group gets option to boot. If the game offers you the option, and you boot, THEN you get a replacement.
They also need to implement a "reduced boss loot drop" on groups that have vote dumped other players.

That system is pretty much off the top of my head and would need tweaking, but it would stop IL snobs from dumping "inferior" players and pals from dumping pugs at the end. (the two things about pugging that **** me off the most)

Frankly, it shouldn't NEED sorting out.
It's not PWE's fault that some people are dicks.

But as seems to be the increasing situation, someone needs to legislate for common courtesy.

I rather like your idea on that kind of set up. And yes I fully agree they should not need to have to but when you give people the power to go"No no no you no no you you no no no." they will abuse it. That is why I do not like the current set up with the privet queue. Because now people can be more picky and you will never get in anything. And I kid you not any one that tells me "Just get your guild." I will delete the comment. It gives NOTHING to the conversation.

bladedge12 · September 2016

asjohnson#4476 said:
Sometimes kicking people is 100% needed though. Example: You run through all of CN, get to Orcus, your only Tank/DC gets disconnected, you wait 20mins, still no sign they are returning. So you KICK that person in hopes to get a new Tank/DC. Instead of a Tank/DC you get a fresh lvl 70 TR with a 2050 IL. You run Orcus to see if its possible w/o a Tank or DC....you get crushed. So are you telling me you wouldn't want to kick this weak person that literally just joined in the hopes of getting a Tank/DC so you can finish the dungeon? If you say no, then you are lying to yourself.

In conclusion, I 100% disagree that people shouldn't be able to kick people. It is needed, and should stay the way it is.

No because I have ran the leader role. If they are new I let them stay because they will never be able to do it or get any stronger if you go "You never beat it before out." I ran an epic demo before got silver and you know what the weaker people did? They thanked me for not refusing them. So before you tell me I am lying to myself why not look back at all the players. All the people you told "We don't want you here." and feel bad at the fact. Yes I am that kind of person. I will hurt the feels to people that try the same.

bladedge12 · September 2016

mordekai#1901 said:
If you kicked and got a 2.5 IL TR instead of the needed Tank, would you just kick them?

If so it sounds like you are saying that you are OK with unfair kicking unless its you being affected.

I have never voted to kick someone who was an active group member because they weren't what I thought they should be.
I'd rather drop out myself and give the rest a chance at getting the required tank.

Don't call me a liar because you judge others by your own standards.

Agreed."

mordekai · September 2016

bladedge12 said:

asjohnson#4476 said:
Sometimes kicking people is 100% needed though. Example: You run through all of CN, get to Orcus, your only Tank/DC gets disconnected, you wait 20mins, still no sign they are returning. So you KICK that person in hopes to get a new Tank/DC. Instead of a Tank/DC you get a fresh lvl 70 TR with a 2050 IL. You run Orcus to see if its possible w/o a Tank or DC....you get crushed. So are you telling me you wouldn't want to kick this weak person that literally just joined in the hopes of getting a Tank/DC so you can finish the dungeon? If you say no, then you are lying to yourself.

In conclusion, I 100% disagree that people shouldn't be able to kick people. It is needed, and should stay the way it is.
No because I have ran the leader role. If they are new I let them stay because they will never be able to do it or get any stronger if you go "You never beat it before out." I ran an epic demo before got silver and you know what the weaker people did? They thanked me for not refusing them. So before you tell me I am lying to myself why not look back at all the players. All the people you told "We don't want you here." and feel bad at the fact. Yes I am that kind of person. I will hurt the feels to people that try the same.

This applies on the -70 dungeons too.
I do Heart of Ice every day to burn my free key and grab a few AD. I choose HoI because I enjoy it.
Inevitably I have 2 guys below 1K and I always run with or behind them, taking out trash archers and thinning large groups so they can take on the bosses. I get more satisfaction when I get a "Cheers, that was actually FUN" from a guy who is used to trying to keep up with a 2k+ character and gets to step over bodies rather than contribute than from proving that my 2.6 char is more powerful than a level 44 dude.

bladedge12 · September 2016

mordekai#1901 said:

bladedge12 said:

asjohnson#4476 said:
Sometimes kicking people is 100% needed though. Example: You run through all of CN, get to Orcus, your only Tank/DC gets disconnected, you wait 20mins, still no sign they are returning. So you KICK that person in hopes to get a new Tank/DC. Instead of a Tank/DC you get a fresh lvl 70 TR with a 2050 IL. You run Orcus to see if its possible w/o a Tank or DC....you get crushed. So are you telling me you wouldn't want to kick this weak person that literally just joined in the hopes of getting a Tank/DC so you can finish the dungeon? If you say no, then you are lying to yourself.

In conclusion, I 100% disagree that people shouldn't be able to kick people. It is needed, and should stay the way it is.
No because I have ran the leader role. If they are new I let them stay because they will never be able to do it or get any stronger if you go "You never beat it before out." I ran an epic demo before got silver and you know what the weaker people did? They thanked me for not refusing them. So before you tell me I am lying to myself why not look back at all the players. All the people you told "We don't want you here." and feel bad at the fact. Yes I am that kind of person. I will hurt the feels to people that try the same.
This applies on the -70 dungeons too.
I do Heart of Ice every day to burn my free key and grab a few AD. I choose HoI because I enjoy it.
Inevitably I have 2 guys below 1K and I always run with or behind them, taking out trash archers and thinning large groups so they can take on the bosses. I get more satisfaction when I get a "Cheers, that was actually FUN" from a guy who is used to trying to keep up with a 2k+ character and gets to step over bodies rather than contribute than from proving that my 2.6 char is more powerful than a level 44 dude.

I am not fully sure what you are saying here.

mordekai · September 2016

Basically, the idea of treating lower level players less like an inconvenience, and giving them the chance to achieve the stuff they otherwise get dumped on for not having achieved.

Allowing those players you talked about no doubt made your own quest tougher, but not treating them like scraps is the right thing to do.
It's just common courtesy to the other players.

I come from a background of TTRPG and LRP where, in both cases, players actively strive to help other players develope.
It only seems to be in the online gaming community that an awful lot of players only see toons that are either useful, or a hinderance and their value is judged accordingly. Rarely a thought is given to the person at the end of the connection who is also wanting to have a good time playing the game.

I know there are no rules telling people not to act like a selfish prick, but that doesn't mean it's mandatory...

asjohnson · September 2016

bladedge12 said:

asjohnson#4476 said:
Sometimes kicking people is 100% needed though. Example: You run through all of CN, get to Orcus, your only Tank/DC gets disconnected, you wait 20mins, still no sign they are returning. So you KICK that person in hopes to get a new Tank/DC. Instead of a Tank/DC you get a fresh lvl 70 TR with a 2050 IL. You run Orcus to see if its possible w/o a Tank or DC....you get crushed. So are you telling me you wouldn't want to kick this weak person that literally just joined in the hopes of getting a Tank/DC so you can finish the dungeon? If you say no, then you are lying to yourself.

In conclusion, I 100% disagree that people shouldn't be able to kick people. It is needed, and should stay the way it is.
No because I have ran the leader role. If they are new I let them stay because they will never be able to do it or get any stronger if you go "You never beat it before out." I ran an epic demo before got silver and you know what the weaker people did? They thanked me for not refusing them. So before you tell me I am lying to myself why not look back at all the players. All the people you told "We don't want you here." and feel bad at the fact. Yes I am that kind of person. I will hurt the feels to people that try the same.

So you would just keep running and failing instead of kicking the person that just joined, did not help you get to the end at all, and you have no reason to keep them? But keep them and 100% keep failing and failing until everyone else (the people you ran the ENTIRE dungeon with) leave because you are too selfish to kick the person who just joined and is not going to help you at all. Yea, the problem isn't with others in that case, the problem is with you. You have ZERO reason to keep this new person. I would hate to be in a group with you, then again, if I knew it was you who kept voting NO on the Kick, I would just kick you 1st then kick the new person. Get the people out who don't want or can't help us win.

mordekai · September 2016

If you don't like it you have the choice to leave the group.

The person you boot for not matching your selfish standards doesn't get the option.
Manners, courtesy... call it what you want

Playing a game that has no defined victory criteria "to win" rather than for everyone's enjoyment does seem to either breed, or attract, selfishness.

asjohnson · September 2016

mordekai#1901 said:
If you don't like it you have the choice to leave the group.

The person you boot for not matching your selfish standards doesn't get option.
Manners, courtesy... call it what you want

Playing a game that has no defined victory criteria "to win" rather than for everyone's enjoyment does seem to either breed, or attract, selfishness.

What are you talking about? You lost a Tank/DC, you get a TR that will not help you in either one of those regards. You run it and fail, hey no problem. Run it again and fail. You keep running and keep failing 100% of the time. How is me kicking this person who JUST JOINED selfish? It's not.

And people don't want to run an entire dungeon only to not be able to beat the boss. They won't keep running in and dying and say, "Oh well, we can't beat it....but at least were having fun hahaha." NO that's delusional. And clearly you have no idea what I am saying, so I am done talking to a hopeless case.

mordekai · September 2016

You switch between "just joined" and "keep running and failing" which do you mean?
Personally, I'd leave before booting any other player who was giving their all.

I'd far rather fail the mission than be that player.

Victory at all costs is just something that comes waaaay down my list of priorities when playing a game with other people.
Much higher up that list is "did I add to the enjoyment of more people than I pissed off?"

Let me ask you this...
If you lose the tank and you are playing a dps, and the replacement is a better dps than you, do you do the decent thing and bail, since he will be more use to the group than you?

Or is it all about you?

omegarealities · September 2016

All I will say is that that everyone was new at some time. Did someone give you a chance?

ecrana · September 2016

omegarealities#7219 said:
All I will say is that that everyone was new at some time. Did someone give you a chance?

Yup. They were called guildmates. Before them I got my fair share of kicks. Hell I left dungeons if I felt I was the weak link. This whole notion that a group of 4 need to carry a 5th person is nice and all but it's not mandatory. I've done my share of carrying entire teams in some runs. I've even been the 5th guy to come in to a dungeon and get a big thanks when they finally cleared it. But sometimes you don't have time to sit there and try a dungeon 20 times and you need to get the job done.

I have no issue trying things a few times and I've had dungeons that I've spent waaaaay too long trying to clear just so everyone gets the win (I'm looking at you Orcus). But there comes a time when someone needs to go and sorry but kicking takes a vote and if people opt to kick I have no problem doing it in certain situations.

mordekai · September 2016

I've been playing since April this year, and have spent more time pugging and soloing than with arranged groups.
I would say fewer than 10% of the people who are 70+ and running on dungeons where they are considerably higher than the rest show any sort of attempt at supporting the lower level characters. Of course, that is only MY experience, and I'm sure other people have different experiences.
Of the other 90% I'd say it's an even spread between ambivalent disinterest and flat out disdain.
After having experienced the latter as a new player, and increasingly as a post 70 character on the high rank dungeons, and been on the wrong end of "you just aren't good enough for the way I want to play... BOOT!" ...I simply decided to not be that sort of player.

omegarealities · September 2016

Well, Ecrana, i guess you were lucky someone took the time to help you. Too bad you have become too elite to return the favor.

bladedge12 · September 2016

asjohnson#4476 said:

bladedge12 said:

asjohnson#4476 said:
Sometimes kicking people is 100% needed though. Example: You run through all of CN, get to Orcus, your only Tank/DC gets disconnected, you wait 20mins, still no sign they are returning. So you KICK that person in hopes to get a new Tank/DC. Instead of a Tank/DC you get a fresh lvl 70 TR with a 2050 IL. You run Orcus to see if its possible w/o a Tank or DC....you get crushed. So are you telling me you wouldn't want to kick this weak person that literally just joined in the hopes of getting a Tank/DC so you can finish the dungeon? If you say no, then you are lying to yourself.

In conclusion, I 100% disagree that people shouldn't be able to kick people. It is needed, and should stay the way it is.
No because I have ran the leader role. If they are new I let them stay because they will never be able to do it or get any stronger if you go "You never beat it before out." I ran an epic demo before got silver and you know what the weaker people did? They thanked me for not refusing them. So before you tell me I am lying to myself why not look back at all the players. All the people you told "We don't want you here." and feel bad at the fact. Yes I am that kind of person. I will hurt the feels to people that try the same.
So you would just keep running and failing instead of kicking the person that just joined, did not help you get to the end at all, and you have no reason to keep them? But keep them and 100% keep failing and failing until everyone else (the people you ran the ENTIRE dungeon with) leave because you are too selfish to kick the person who just joined and is not going to help you at all. Yea, the problem isn't with others in that case, the problem is with you. You have ZERO reason to keep this new person. I would hate to be in a group with you, then again, if I knew it was you who kept voting NO on the Kick, I would just kick you 1st then kick the new person. Get the people out who don't want or can't help us win.

No what I do is we all pull out and run threw again and again because even if you do not kill the last boss you still get lots of seals. But it does not even matter because with my blade and my friend's shield no boss stands agents us. So when we are together people actively making the run hard gets kicked.

ecrana · September 2016

omegarealities#7219 said:
Well, Ecrana, i guess you were lucky someone took the time to help you. Too bad you have become too elite to return the favor.

I'm sorry. I'm just not sure what's elite about saying that it's not mandatory to help people.

I also said that I do help pugs (elite?) and that I have no problem trying a dungeon a few times when I have time (must be elite to try to be helpful).

I said I've spent hours in dungeons trying to beat a boss instead of kicking or leaving (I guess this is what you call elite?).

I said that I have personally left dungeons if I was the weak link. (this is what the really elite players do I guess. call themselves the weak link.)

Oh I did say that when I don't have time to waste an hour clearing a boss it should be ok to kick the weak link. That must be where you somehow got the notion in your head that I was calling myself elite (i'm not btw.) What I am is someone that plays under time constraints sometime and has no problem acknowledging that I have at times kicked people because the rest of the party wanted to.

Let me clarify for you also that I have NEVER initiated a vote kick because someone was weak. But if the party wants someone gone after 30-45 minutes of wiping then that person is going to get kicked. Sorry if being realistic is elite.

omegarealities · September 2016

ecrana#2080 said:

omegarealities#7219 said:
Well, Ecrana, i guess you were lucky someone took the time to help you. Too bad you have become too elite to return the favor.
I'm sorry. I'm just not sure what's elite about saying that it's not mandatory to help people.

I also said that I do help pugs (elite?) and that I have no problem trying a dungeon a few times when I have time (must be elite to try to be helpful).

I said I've spent hours in dungeons trying to beat a boss instead of kicking or leaving (I guess this is what you call elite?).

I said that I have personally left dungeons if I was the weak link. (this is what the really elite players do I guess. call themselves the weak link.)

Oh I did say that when I don't have time to waste an hour clearing a boss it should be ok to kick the weak link. That must be where you somehow got the notion in your head that I was calling myself elite (i'm not btw.) What I am is someone that plays under time constraints sometime and has no problem acknowledging that I have at times kicked people because the rest of the party wanted to.

Let me clarify for you also that I have NEVER initiated a vote kick because someone was weak. But if the party wants someone gone after 30-45 minutes of wiping then that person is going to get kicked. Sorry if being realistic is elite.

First, let me apologize the way the way I came across. Was having a bad day and should not have let is effect my posts.

Second, I am glad to hear that you have not initiated vote kick.

I guess what gets me riled up is when I see people on the boards that say they are too important to help newer player learn. Not everyone is a natural when it comes to video game and everyone had a different learning curve. Guilds are not always receptive to people with a slower learning curve. So many people have to resort to joining randomaly, only to be kicked because they do not meet the groups "qualifications".

mordekai · September 2016

Earlier this afternoon I dropped on ELoL cos the guild Cleric felt it was important...
By the time it popped up I'd almost forgotten I'd queued for it.... if I'd been actually eager I would have probably been banging my head on the desk.
There were 3 players (inc. me) in the mid 2k range, a 4k DC and a TR at just over 1600...
The DC could have solo'd this and left nothing for the rest of us to do, but even when the new guy was struggling to manage his dodge's to avoid the early lava streams and one guy asked for a vote to kick him (reason... "yyyy" ) she went back and walked him through it.
She backed away healing and buffing when needed... and ended up bottom on all the tables except damage taken and healing.

If there was anyone on that run who didn't enjoy it it was the impatient kicker... which I consider justice.

So while being nice might not be mandatory it is, by definition, "nice".

Chat/queue system

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