Best of 2 Worlds.

marnival · August 2016

Hi fellow Rangers!

A bit of info on myself.

I played since beta and Ranger since day 1, I also played Gwf(3.4IL)-OP(3.5IL)-Gf(2.7IL)-Sw(2.2IL)-DC(3.1IL) but atm I focus on my Hr.

To make a long story short I went to preview for some testing trying to find a way to see if I could make combat work and ended up with some unexpected result.

My first problem was that after playing trapper I had a very hard time to get used to the long downtime on encounters when playing full combat, the second problem with combat was that nm what I tried my overall damage was seriously lacking even if I achieved higher burst damage.

After 2 days testing i more or less gave up and started elaborating out of the box so to say and came up with a build that diden't use any capstone but combined more or less what i wanted from combat with the fluid encounter use and cc from trapper.

Lucky blades gives 15% on encounter damage and you can more or less keep it up 100% which is about the same as trapper capstone for 30% with 50% uptime and this got me thinking of a hybrid build without capstone as the compat capstone is next to useless.

All in all I do about 30 % more damage now then as trapper and have alot more fun playing actually, it also gives incredible flexibility to use different encountes and class feats depending on playstyle and situation. I actually change encounters and class feats more often then I ever done before making the variation very stimulating.

So build then...

I am Pathfinder but my guess is that you can as well go for Stormwarden creating even more variation.
I will only link feat build rest you can elaborate as you want yourself.

http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/hr?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,13k3iii:1000000:1uu0z00:1uu0uv0&h=0&p=pfr&o=0

Worth to mention also is that with this build you do a lot more piercing damage and therefore need less arpen which can be put in power for more damage(it actually increase piercing damage a lot since its pre mitigated damage) and that you can more or less skip recovery(have 2.5 myself) adding even more power.

Atm I use transce dread but my guess is that the higher power you get the more feytouched(less crit more power) or vorpal(with high crit build) will outperform dread.

I hope it can make you have as much fun as I currently do with Hr changes.

/best
Marnival

PS I make no claim of inventing this build I just found it and wanted to share it to those that didn't.

oldbaldyone · August 2016

Its an interesting build. Is this for PVP? PVE I wouldnt think Piercing blades would be as big of a deal.

Maybe pulling 2 points from Piercing Blades and putting them in to Thorned Roots (going from 40% to 24% on PB, but from 40% to 120% on roots) would be even better? If I was going to go that far into Combat, not taking Skirmishers Gambit seems like a waste.

The Trapper capstone is a 30% damage boost, instant 20% AP generation, and a 60% bonus to control durations (thorned roots). I dont know that piercing blades makes up for that.

krondhor · August 2016

oldbaldyone said:
Its an interesting build. Is this for PVP? PVE I wouldnt think Piercing blades would be as big of a deal.

Maybe pulling 2 points from Piercing Blades and putting them in to Thorned Roots (going from 40% to 24% on PB, but from 40% to 120% on roots) would be even better? If I was going to go that far into Combat, not taking Skirmishers Gambit seems like a waste.

The Trapper capstone is a 30% damage boost, instant 20% AP generation, and a 60% bonus to control durations (thorned roots). I dont know that piercing blades makes up for that.

This is a PvP build, and no lower the points from Piercing Blades to raise Thorned Roots won't be better, all the damage comes from Piercing damage done from melee attacks, so here you need keep Piercing Blades maximized, Plant Growth is the core, and you will slot Hindering Shot/Hindering Strike as next, and the third encounter is mostly a tool some using Fox's Cunning/Boar Hide/Marauder Escape but I prefer maximize the damage and be a node controller so using Thorn Ward/Thorn Strike that works pretty neat.

marnival · August 2016

oldbaldyone said:
Its an interesting build. Is this for PVP? PVE I wouldnt think Piercing blades would be as big of a deal.

Maybe pulling 2 points from Piercing Blades and putting them in to Thorned Roots (going from 40% to 24% on PB, but from 40% to 120% on roots) would be even better? If I was going to go that far into Combat, not taking Skirmishers Gambit seems like a waste.

The Trapper capstone is a 30% damage boost, instant 20% AP generation, and a 60% bonus to control durations (thorned roots). I dont know that piercing blades makes up for that.

Well first of all you need less arpen = more power = more damage(even more on piercing due to higher pre mitigated damage) second in pvp you want as much piercing as you can get.

When i tested with all from 1 point in piercing and 5 in thorned roots to 1 in thorned roots to 5 in piercing I got the best result with 1 point in thorned roots.

I am sure different playstyle/gear/class feats can get different results but overall having close to no downtime in rotations combined with meele feats with no capstone actually results in overall better performance then either combat or trapper with capstone.

Using aspect of the serpent and aspect of the pack will also increase piercing damage alot (explained by relaxinor in other thread) and so will longstrider buff.

AP generation as pathfinder i have no issue with and the duration for roots combined with the daze from the feat crushing roots is more then enough cc(control) imho.

If you need less survivability aspect of the serpent+pack will boost quite a bit and if you need more control survivability lone wolf+crushing roots is the way to go etc etc.

Tested skimisher gambit against lucky blades and with 67% crit chanse as base I did more damage with lucky blades even with transce and dread/vorpal.

Maby if you have alot higher crit chanse after taking skirmisher you can get different result but then you have to either sacrifice power to crit or have bonding rank 12x3 on pet(is my guess), but feel free to test and come back :-).

krondhor · August 2016

marnival said:
Hi fellow Rangers!

A bit of info on myself.

I played since beta and Ranger since day 1, I also played Gwf(3.4IL)-OP(3.5IL)-Gf(2.7IL)-Sw(2.2IL)-DC(3.1IL) but atm I focus on my Hr.

To make a long story short I went to preview for some testing trying to find a way to see if I could make combat work and ended up with some unexpected result.

My first problem was that after playing trapper I had a very hard time to get used to the long downtime on encounters when playing full combat, the second problem with combat was that nm what I tried my overall damage was seriously lacking even if I achieved higher burst damage.

After 2 days testing i more or less gave up and started elaborating out of the box so to say and came up with a build that diden't use any capstone but combined more or less what i wanted from combat with the fluid encounter use and cc from trapper.

Lucky blades gives 15% on encounter damage and you can more or less keep it up 100% which is about the same as trapper capstone for 30% with 50% uptime and this got me thinking of a hybrid build without capstone as the compat capstone is next to useless.

All in all I do about 30 % more damage now then as trapper and have alot more fun playing actually, it also gives incredible flexibility to use different encountes and class feats depending on playstyle and situation. I actually change encounters and class feats more often then I ever done before making the variation very stimulating.

So build then...

I am Pathfinder but my guess is that you can as well go for Stormwarden creating even more variation.
I will only link feat build rest you can elaborate as you want yourself.

http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/hr?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,13k3iii:1000000:1uu0z00:1uu0uv0&h=0&p=pfr&o=0

Worth to mention also is that with this build you do a lot more piercing damage and therefore need less arpen which can be put in power for more damage(it actually increase piercing damage a lot since its pre mitigated damage) and that you can more or less skip recovery(have 2.5 myself) adding even more power.

Atm I use transce dread but my guess is that the higher power you get the more feytouched(less crit more power) or vorpal(with high crit build) will outperform dread.

I hope it can make you have as much fun as I currently do with Hr changes.

/best
Marnival

PS I make no claim of inventing this build I just found it and wanted to share it to those that didn't.

I would put at least 2 pts in Skirmisher Gambit, 3 in Lucky Blades, as the AP generation is quick anyway thanks of the trapper encounter spamming system, and if you are lucky enough to own an Imperial Rage Drake you can go full 5 pts in Skirmisher Gambit even.

PS there's no claim to have invented the build indeed as at least 3+ hunter's got the same concept idea at once so it's irrelevant, I am trying this way since mod 10 start myself.

marnival · August 2016

krondhor said:

marnival said:
Hi fellow Rangers!

A bit of info on myself.

I played since beta and Ranger since day 1, I also played Gwf(3.4IL)-OP(3.5IL)-Gf(2.7IL)-Sw(2.2IL)-DC(3.1IL) but atm I focus on my Hr.

To make a long story short I went to preview for some testing trying to find a way to see if I could make combat work and ended up with some unexpected result.

My first problem was that after playing trapper I had a very hard time to get used to the long downtime on encounters when playing full combat, the second problem with combat was that nm what I tried my overall damage was seriously lacking even if I achieved higher burst damage.

After 2 days testing i more or less gave up and started elaborating out of the box so to say and came up with a build that diden't use any capstone but combined more or less what i wanted from combat with the fluid encounter use and cc from trapper.

Lucky blades gives 15% on encounter damage and you can more or less keep it up 100% which is about the same as trapper capstone for 30% with 50% uptime and this got me thinking of a hybrid build without capstone as the compat capstone is next to useless.

All in all I do about 30 % more damage now then as trapper and have alot more fun playing actually, it also gives incredible flexibility to use different encountes and class feats depending on playstyle and situation. I actually change encounters and class feats more often then I ever done before making the variation very stimulating.

So build then...

I am Pathfinder but my guess is that you can as well go for Stormwarden creating even more variation.
I will only link feat build rest you can elaborate as you want yourself.

http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/hr?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,13k3iii:1000000:1uu0z00:1uu0uv0&h=0&p=pfr&o=0

Worth to mention also is that with this build you do a lot more piercing damage and therefore need less arpen which can be put in power for more damage(it actually increase piercing damage a lot since its pre mitigated damage) and that you can more or less skip recovery(have 2.5 myself) adding even more power.

Atm I use transce dread but my guess is that the higher power you get the more feytouched(less crit more power) or vorpal(with high crit build) will outperform dread.

I hope it can make you have as much fun as I currently do with Hr changes.

/best
Marnival

PS I make no claim of inventing this build I just found it and wanted to share it to those that didn't.

I would put at least 2 pts in Skirmisher Gambit, 3 in Lucky Blades, as the AP generation is quick anyway thanks of the trapper encounter spamming system, and if you are lucky enough to own an Imperial Rage Drake you can go full 5 pts in Skirmisher Gambit even.

PS there's no claim to have invented the build indeed as at least 3+ hunter's got the same concept idea at once so it's irrelevant, I am trying this way since mod 10 start myself.

Yea well myself I go for the 15% on encounter power from lucky blades more then AP gain + i tend to lean toward less crit more power and feytouch atm...

feanor70118 · August 2016

Out of curiosity, what's the source of the build?

In pvp my experience so far with combat is that Bear Trap is still basically useless unless you've frozen someone with the Rod of Imperial Restraint or Boar Charge. Bear Trap just sucks. Nevertheless I'm enjoying trolling with the combination of Ambush and Forest Ghost - when I build my Shadowclad next 2xRP I'll have something like 15 seconds of stealth out of every 30.

I can see the potential in the build despite the lack of a capstone, but Flurry is just awesome with piercing damage, and the gap-closing effect of Split Strike makes it the best at-will we have for pvp. Nail someone with an encounter, any encounter, and chase them with Split Strike. They hate it.

For encounters, thorn is probably better in pvp with combat than hinder since we're better off not slotting Crushing Roots and Thorn Strike also has an instantaneous animation and supposedly does more damage on weakened targets, though I don't know how much more since Cryptic doesn't tell us....

Keeping the Flurry capstone makes a combat build reasonably effective in pve. I can't solo the 10-man HE's (well, not many of them) in Bryn Shander/Lonelywood but the 3-man ones are easy and I can still do the 15-man Stronghold HEs without trouble. In pve I tend to slot Crushing Roots and hinder for the CC and because it has a fast animation (rain or ambush or thorn instead of hinder for boss fights, depending on the boss). I'm still feeling my way around the build, and may work on a Combat/Longshot (all piercing, all dancing HAMSTER of the world build) build on preview, but longstrider's/hinder/cordon melts most everything in pve. With 5k recovery thanks to the Imperial set, I can run that rotation while rarely shifting to ranged stance. Encounter, 2 seconds of Split Strike, repeat, repeat, daily, repeat ad nauseam.

Mod edit: Let's not dev bash.

marnival · August 2016

Removed moderator edited quote.

Dont use ambush as trap is just to bad.

Can use splitt strike in this build also.

Dont have imperial set and in my experiance, tested with 8k recovery I still get a lot more downtime going full combat compared to hybrid build.

The source of this build is just exprimenting on preview trying to come up with something valid for both pvp and pve, using the piercing damage combined with a bit of the cc and encounter reset from trapper.

With alot of testing this is what actually made more damage even in pve then trapper and alot more damage then full combat for me....

jonkoca · August 2016

Its okay marnival, you're not mad.

That's the same build I just adopted yesterday night, for the same reasons. Worked better than full combat, at least in the 5 or 6 matches I played last night, with trans dread, lolset, mainly cos I'm too lazy to change, sure you lose some burst, but I think you make up for it because you can spam plant growth every couple of seconds with piercing, rather than just once in a while. Pathfinder atm. but I think I'll use my free respect to go SW for blade storm, see if that helps pump up the numbers.

Plus of course, my PVE damage is back to normal.

gabrieldourden · August 2016

Yup, it's a good one for PVP. I actually use Constrictive as the third one to have a locking rotation on the ranged side:PG, hindering strike, tab, constrictive, disruptive, hindering shot. Target eats all the dots... PvE solo is ok-ish too, but it's weak in DG (piercing damage doesn't compete with roots plus master trapper).

feanor70118 · August 2016

I'll try it out on preview, but still taking Gambit over Lucky Blades. If you have all the AP generation from spamming encounters, I can't see the point of devoting 5 feat points to it when you could get another 50% crit severity (Edit: well, actually I can see the point if you're wearing the Lostmauth set, but since I've switched to Imperial the extra recovery gives me that AP generation anyway). Edit: Trying it out live (with gambit instead of lucky blades) since I had some respecs left anyway. Sometimes the damage is massive, even better than it was as pure trapper. Sometimes it seems to take much longer to kill (due to less control, things can actually fight back now....). I suspect I'll improve as I learn the style that goes with the build. Also, I missed where you'd said you tested it with lucky blades instead of gambit, so I guess I'll have to do another partial respec....

This is seriously good work, and thanks for publishing it.

Edit again: after a couple days of testing, Lucky Blades probably does increase damage in pve, but it seems like burst damage was better in pvp with Skirmisher's Gambit (since piercing doesn't help ranged encounters and I'm using a trans dread). I'll give it a few more days before respeccing feats again.

zonoske · August 2016

So is this viable in PvP? What good is 1 point thorned roots since you really won't be applying roots?

feanor70118 · August 2016

After a couple of killing sprees in pvp, I can verify that this is most certainly viable there. After a couple of CN runs, I can also say it's just fine in PVE. This is the build you are looking for. The point of 1 point in thorned roots is that the point has to go somewhere in the paragon trees and it might as well go to upgrading roots. You'll be using Hindering Strike most of the time.

zonoske · August 2016

What good is plant growth when they will just move out of it?

wdj40 · August 2016

Could someone tell me why the Rod of Imperial Restraint is so good now?

I used to have it and the set on the X1 quite some time ago but now I have LM. I also have the Orcus set which I am going to max out when double RP hits us very soon.

But I hear you people on the PC are liking the Imperial Set, I take it Orcus would still be better? But why is the Rod so good now as a main Artefact?

krondhor · August 2016

wdj40 said:
Could someone tell me why the Rod of Imperial Restraint is so good now?

I used to have it and the set on the X1 quite some time ago but now I have LM. I also have the Orcus set which I am going to max out when double RP hits us very soon.

But I hear you people on the PC are liking the Imperial Set, I take it Orcus would still be better? But why is the Rod so good now as a main Artefact?

Rod is good to be used before PG, as it keep players blocked in place enough to 100% get PG hit them without an escape chance.

Unknown · August 2016

This content has been removed.

jonkoca · August 2016

Yep, I hate that artifact, unless my oghma is up, I'm dead.

krondhor · August 2016

To be precise the Imperial set suxx, only the Rod itself is good, those that use the whole set is due they need stack some recovery due playing full combat, and not the hybrid build.

feanor70118 · August 2016

krondhor said:
To be precise the Imperial set suxx, only the Rod itself is good, those that use the whole set is due they need stack some recovery due playing full combat, and not the hybrid build.

Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me since i have well over 60% armor pen even with the imperial set and now that armor pen is irrelevant in pvp you might as well have the stamina gain and AP gain from recovery instead of wasting stats where they don't help you...

Unknown · August 2016

This content has been removed.

krondhor · August 2016

feanor70118 said:

krondhor said:
To be precise the Imperial set suxx, only the Rod itself is good, those that use the whole set is due they need stack some recovery due playing full combat, and not the hybrid build.
Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me since i have well over 60% armor pen even with the imperial set and now that armor pen is irrelevant in pvp you might as well have the stamina gain and AP gain from recovery instead of wasting stats where they don't help you...

I don't use the imperial set at all as it is sub-optimal, there are better choices, I don't need stack recovery with the hybrid build, and I only answered to wdj40 why the Rod of Imperial Restraint is used that much these days, but it's usage is restricted to PvP as who use the Rod does it before cast PG (I personally don't even use the Rod there, but this is now irrilevant), fact is those that started to adopt the imperial set as most are those playing full combat, while I disagree with using it in the hybrid build, as the trapper part is enough for us to avoid the need to stack recovery, hence there is better choices (set wise) for us playing the hybrid build than choice the imperial set.

zonoske · August 2016

So going full combat. Imperial set with help?

marnival · August 2016

zonoske#5272 said:
So going full combat. Imperial set with help?

Going combat you need all the help you can get with high cooldowns = you need recovery = yes Imperial set will help...

jonkoca · August 2016

I use the cw artifact (too lazy to level a rod of restraint) for the same effect, it's half a second less root, but gives you time to drop pg on someone.

jonkoca · August 2016

Update.

This is a good build if you like PVE, but want to dabble in PvP too without getting flattened. However, if you do want to go full on PvP, then I'm afraid full combat, with maybe 5 points spare if you don't want skirmishes gambit (I don't because I have trans. dread) to go into another tree, is the only way to go. Don't kill yourself over recovery, 4k or so is about right, you will still have rubbish cooldowns compared to trapper, but eh, the extra damage, and amazing survival more than compensates. Everyone tells me trans. Fey and trans elven, elven I have, fey I had, but I like to crit things to death in PVE, so whaddyagonnado..?

And don't forget a HAMSTER-tonne of hit points.

marnival · August 2016

jonkoca said:
Update.

This is a good build if you like PVE, but want to dabble in PvP too without getting flattened. However, if you do want to go full on PvP, then I'm afraid full combat, with maybe 5 points spare if you don't want skirmishes gambit (I don't because I have trans. dread) to go into another tree, is the only way to go. Don't kill yourself over recovery, 4k or so is about right, you will still have rubbish cooldowns compared to trapper, but eh, the extra damage, and amazing survival more than compensates. Everyone tells me trans. Fey and trans elven, elven I have, fey I had, but I like to crit things to death in PVE, so whaddyagonnado..?

And don't forget a ****-tonne of hit points.

Well yes if you want to be able to be a killer as combat offers more burst damage and ofc wild medicine for better survival.

But if you still want to continue using dread with trappers fast encounters a bit of work around is possible due to ambush+ghost.

I dabbled a bit with it and its so *'*'' awkward to get used to ambush you need a great bit of patience and get used to use bear trap in a constructive way (not that easy imho).

Longstrider+ambush+disruptive+growth(insert anything that can cc here including the new imperial rod) cordon will do its job when you crit. Follow up with ghost rinse and repeat, it might not be optimal but if you want to stay trapper/melee with a chance to stay alive and still be able to kill in pvp I think it can work.

Bear trap is a pain for sure but I have not found any other way to stay alive so far ....

krondhor · August 2016

marnival said:

jonkoca said:
Update.

This is a good build if you like PVE, but want to dabble in PvP too without getting flattened. However, if you do want to go full on PvP, then I'm afraid full combat, with maybe 5 points spare if you don't want skirmishes gambit (I don't because I have trans. dread) to go into another tree, is the only way to go. Don't kill yourself over recovery, 4k or so is about right, you will still have rubbish cooldowns compared to trapper, but eh, the extra damage, and amazing survival more than compensates. Everyone tells me trans. Fey and trans elven, elven I have, fey I had, but I like to crit things to death in PVE, so whaddyagonnado..?

And don't forget a ****-tonne of hit points.
Well yes if you want to be able to be a killer as combat offers more burst damage and ofc wild medicine for better survival.

But if you still want to continue using dread with trappers fast encounters a bit of work around is possible due to ambush+ghost.

I dabbled a bit with it and its so *'*'' awkward to get used to ambush you need a great bit of patience and get used to use bear trap in a constructive way (not that easy imho).

Longstrider+ambush+disruptive+growth(insert anything that can cc here including the new imperial rod) cordon will do its job when you crit. Follow up with ghost rinse and repeat, it might not be optimal but if you want to stay trapper/melee with a chance to stay alive and still be able to kill in pvp I think it can work.

Bear trap is a pain for sure but I have not found any other way to stay alive so far ....

Thorn Ward is good as for node fighting in PvP as Ambush replacement (since yes Bear Trap is what make the encounter bad)

feanor70118 · September 2016

I'm doing all right with hinder/fox/cordon. Boar charge is nice to knock people into plant growth but really only useful with ambush as well. Hinder is still disappointing since the devs saw fit to give us roots that don't hold people in place at all and might as well not be called roots in pvp these last four mods.

This whole thing is very much still a work in progress in my opinion, but better than the alternatives.

jhpnw · September 2016

So I met Marnival in PVP yesterday after talking with him I am going to try and work with this build. So some questions is skirmishers gambit worth it and if not should I then just stack strength and constitution and just get amor pen to 60%. For PVP does not seem crit will be that important and for PVE will have crit and deflect mostly on companion with rank 12 bonding and rizing crit and sudden deflect on rings loyal avenger necklace. I have trans dread and Fey touched so can go either way. Im full trapper now but stayed that way due to Fang breaker Island and CN runs for guild but now FBI seems like its not any hurry so all I got is PVP for now and Trappers doing ok but needs a little more Damage I could not even dent Marnivals GF with out there being 2 on 1 I will be running all brutals in offense and all Savage in defense so those are done now its just choosing stats and feats and boons
Ara

marnival · September 2016

jhpnw said:
So I met Marnival in PVP yesterday after talking with him I am going to try and work with this build. So some questions is skirmishers gambit worth it and if not should I then just stack strength and constitution and just get amor pen to 60%. For PVP does not seem crit will be that important and for PVE will have crit and deflect mostly on companion with rank 12 bonding and rizing crit and sudden deflect on rings loyal avenger necklace. I have trans dread and Fey touched so can go either way. Im full trapper now but stayed that way due to Fang breaker Island and CN runs for guild but now FBI seems like its not any hurry so all I got is PVP for now and Trappers doing ok but needs a little more Damage I could not even dent Marnivals GF with out there being 2 on 1 I will be running all brutals in offense and all Savage in defense so those are done now its just choosing stats and feats and boons
Ara

Give me a tell in game when you see me on I tested tons of different ways to play and gear am sure we can figure out which way you want to go but its a lot easier if we talk in game.

One thing though keep crit and dread, as hybrid you need burst damage and yes leave arpen as low as you can it is not needed.

Best of 2 Worlds.

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