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HB or SB!

candinho2candinho2 Member Posts: 550 Arc User
Hi everyone, i have done some tests and for some weird reason i coun't find a good reason to change to HB, let's see it.
SB has simple features, i have movement+survival(life steal), deflect+survival, lifesteal+severity, ACC and dps(daily spam).
So for pve i would choose from: fast party=movement+survival and ACC, don't need to think twice, it's settle!
For slow party i can be more survival or dps for daily spam simple as that!
Now let's look on HB.
First HB have 3 offensive features for 2 slotsand no combo for it(PVE)
So i go with flames of empower... for 15% dmg boost and i need to think alot for the second slot because we have, CA-Hellish Rebuke, Arpen+survival(only real combo for HB), deflect+survival, movement+survival, tooo many options for just 1(2) slots ;)
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    tostrek2012tostrek2012 Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    I didn't feel like changing from SB to HB. I am still doing fine in etos although not as powerful as before.
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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    HB feels more like a solo paragon, SB is setup heavy, but superior at burning down bosses.
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    schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    Since fury capstone is pretty nice there is only one way in PVE i guess …SB fury.
    About PVP I read that only HB will be worth a try (if), since SB corefeature doesn't work in mod
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    candinho2candinho2 Member Posts: 550 Arc User

    Since fury capstone is pretty nice there is only one way in PVE i guess …SB fury.

    About PVP I read that only HB will be worth a try (if), since SB corefeature doesn't work in mod

    To be honest i rarely used BT on pvp, as we don't survive long anought to fill up sparks, and dark one blassing with 10% life steal looks nice, for me SB fury is a very powerfull self healer, as we can easy get 50~60% ls, the oly downside is the TR.
    But HB does have a awesome setup for pvp, but lack survival and a powerfull daily.
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    candinho2candinho2 Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    i realy wished Hellish Rebuke was on SB xD
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    schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Borrowed time + offhandfeat was the only reason to stay alive in PVP since now.
    Is Darkones blessing a constant lifestealbonus?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    candinho2 said:

    Hi everyone, i have done some tests and for some weird reason i coun't find a good reason to change to HB, let's see it.
    SB has simple features, i have movement+survival(life steal), deflect+survival, lifesteal+severity, ACC and dps(daily spam).
    So for pve i would choose from: fast party=movement+survival and ACC, don't need to think twice, it's settle!
    For slow party i can be more survival or dps for daily spam simple as that!
    Now let's look on HB.
    First HB have 3 offensive features for 2 slotsand no combo for it(PVE)
    So i go with flames of empower... for 15% dmg boost and i need to think alot for the second slot because we have, CA-Hellish Rebuke, Arpen+survival(only real combo for HB), deflect+survival, movement+survival, tooo many options for just 1(2) slots ;)

    How you dare even think that Hellbringer is weak, At this moment HB are most overpowered class in game. Have uber scary named powers. And lot of guys complain and want that HB powers would be adjusted to normal level. >(non geared/no boons/no feats/broken/ lv20 cw) << Sorry for sarcasm

    But for reality here is my opinion. And thats mean what I think about changes, and the fact that with "balancing" reduced my same geared warlock performance by 50%+

    In old times:
    Hellbringer = more dps, but less survivability.
    Soulbidner = more survivability, but less dps( by theory)

    Now:
    Hellbringer = supporter
    Soulbinder = striker.

    So choose, whana die a lot, have <font color="orange">HAMSTER dps, choose HB. Whana be striker and have higher survivability go with SB. Its simple.


    What is difference between SB and HB.
    Let see, HB have>
    Encounter: DuckOnPlate(Pillar of Power),
    At wills: Hellish rebuke,
    Feature: Flames of Nonsense(Flames of Empowerment), No Pity, No Mercy, Prince of Hell,
    Daily power: Gates of Miss(Gates of Hell),

    Feats:
    Fury: Gatekeeper's trolling(Gatekeeper's Empowerment)
    Damnation: Power of DuckOnPlate (Power of the Nine Hells)
    Temptatio: Hellish trolling> (Hellish Condemnation)

    Only no pity no mercy, prince of hell, maybe Hellish rebuke I can call worth even to be considered more less OK.
    Other powers are more to pretend that they are strong, but in the end they serve as trolling.

    Encounter: DuckOnPlate

    DuckOnPlate = give slight DR + outgoing dps boost + reduce incoming dmg from enemies who are in DuckOnPlate effect area.
    Sounds cool?.
    Now downside.. = you stay in one place, so if enemy flank and hit you from side, back or at least 2 of them hit you, They get combat advantage = 15% dmg boost. So yeah, 15% incoming hit to your warlocks HAMSTER..
    Let say DuckOnPlate's reduce incoming hit with DR buff + debuff which reduce enemies dmg. Thats mean they negate 15% combat advantage lost, but thats mean you still receive usual normal damage anyway. :) IF you step out of DuckOnPlate effect area you start getting more dmg in your HAMSTER :P
    So you have to back up DuckOnPlate with Bova. Which gives 20% deflect chance when its active. But in its cool time you become easy target(sitting duck) so have to back up even more = vampiric embrace. Thats mean you literally give up dps powers. And all dps stay on BoVA + at wills + daily power gate of hell which just love to miss :)
    Not mentioned that dps DuckOnPlate itself is very bad. Even it would boost up 20% other powers dmg. it will not compensate lack of third strike encounter. Even we all know that SW now is in bottom when comes dps performance.
    So more like this is Buff for others rather than big benefit for yourself.

    Not mentioned Warlock is not tank and was not ment to go melee hand2hand fight with bosses. And in epic dungeon standing still = fast death.
    Tested this DuckOnPlate in epic spider temple.. And my death rates increase x5 times when was fury tree.
    So in order utilize this DuckOnPlate you must be temptation warlock by default for feats: darkness + Aura of Despair... + have strong tank companion or party member near you...


    At wills: Hellish rebuke,
    With this mod, Damage over time slightly increased. Sounds cool. But since its DoT< and single target. makes question do it worth even use? Alone without Gatekeepers toll feat or no pity no mercy obviously nop.. But since alternative is worser than why not.

    Class feature: No Pity, No Mercy
    This feature is most quoted power. Lot of non SW player used point it i as prove that HB is freaky powerfull. In mod 10 it now add feature, which change Hellish rebuke DoT damage to
    no longer deals damage over time. Instead, the initial hit of damage and any damage reflects caused by Hellish Rebuke deal 50% more damage
    So and make very strong single target at will. Better than nothing :)




    Class feature: Prince of Hell,
    old 10% arp was kinda tricky. If player had lot of arp it could increase that amount by 10%, if u had low arp it was HAMSTER.
    Now it gives could say more less ok, boost + Life steal chances which is warlocks bread< :)






    Feature: Flames of Nonsense(Flames of Empowerment),
    Before mod 10., it gives 8% damage boost< if u combined with gatekeeper empowerment(fury tree) + off hand artifact feature. You could get 16% damage boost. Which was lot.
    Now u get >Flames of Empowerment: No longer increases your damage when your AP is full. Instead, applies a debuff to your target when you hit them with an At-Will power. This debuff increases the damage you deal to the target by 2% (+1% per rank, to a max of 5%), and stacks up to 3 times.


    In other words you give up All consuming curse or No Pity no mercy so that you could apply 15% your dealt damage. Sound great< But wait its cool for single target. Even then u have go with procedure> Curse>at wills> encounters.. But in that point many enemies are already killed<.
    TEsted in Epic spider temple. And it was <font color="orange">HAMSTER
    beyond logic. YOu give up chance to apply lesser curse with ACC< or Combat advantage + life steal chances with NoPity NoMercy so could have stronger single target dps for ~6s. Thats mean sucks. On training dummy looks nice. But in real combat scenario, against non epic dungeons no point to use, in epic dungeons no point to use either. Maybe its for pvp only..


    Daily power: Gates of Miss(Gates of Hell),
    After Tyrannical Threat remodeling to Tyrannical Curse, some non SW players claimed that This gate of hell can wipe group of monsters in CN without problem..
    Tested in Epic spider temple.. Got buffed so had over 7k arp + 30k power. Casted this GateOfMiss. dmg numbers filled screen. And in the end< trash monsters HP line didn't even moved..... They where knocked down as new feature does. But dps still can't even compete with nerfed Tyrannical Curse. Even Brood of Hadar cause more dmg.
    For non epic dungeon fight its great. but against strong enemies. No worth even use even with Gatekeeper's empowerment.


    feat: Damnation: Power of DuckOnPlate (Power of the Nine Hells)
    Increase 50% DuckOnPlate power/DR boost and debuff.
    But same flaw with DuckOnPlate remain. U stand still = u die. And this feat is to buff allies.



    temptation: Hellish Condemnation
    There where no rework for this nonsense power.
    Targets affected by your Hellish Rebuke atwill deal 1/2/3/4/5% less damage.

    Thats mean I throw away 5 feat points that I could have 5% DR against single target if I cast Hellish rebuke on him.. But wait since when in epic dungeons are 1 monsters only? So better spent 5 feat points to other stuffs than this HAMSTER.



    So soulbinder temptation get Vampiric Sparks which increase life steal rather trolling single target.
    fury get Burning Soul which boost dps regardless which power sets you use, daily/ features/atwills whatever.
    Immolation Spirits got buffed so. Over all. Sb become better striker. while hellbringer become victim of developers trolling.

    Is there any reason respect to HB. Only if u are epic drunk :)

    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    fernuufernuu Member Posts: 453 Arc User


    Feature: Flames of Nonsense(Flames of Empowerment),
    Before mod 10., it gives 8% damage boost< if u combined with gatekeeper empowerment(fury tree) + off hand artifact feature. You could get 16% damage boost. Which was lot.

    Keep in mind you had to keep your AP full which was lowering your damage like 500%.

    And DuckOnPlate boosts pretty nice. But yeah, overall I agree :)

    https://youtube.com/c/FernuStormborn

    Mod 10:
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.

    Mod 9:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    fernuu said:



    Keep in mind you had to keep your AP full which was lowering your damage like 500%.

    And DuckOnPlate boosts pretty nice. But yeah, overall I agree :)

    ohh. where u have been? I still waiting your video about Hellbringer Warlock. :)
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    fernuufernuu Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    Yeah, I just respeced on live to Hellbringer and it deals more damage than Soulbinder probably :) Will upload some CN run.

    Yes. GWF is still outdpsing us.
    Yes. Good CW is still outdpsing us.

    PoP is new meta. Killing Flames is decent, Murderous Flames sucks.
    Gate of Hell damage is nice. Stay tooned.
    https://youtube.com/c/FernuStormborn

    Mod 10:
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.

    Mod 9:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
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    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    fernuu said:

    Yeah, I just respeced on live to Hellbringer and it deals more damage than Soulbinder probably :) Will upload some CN run.

    Yes. GWF is still outdpsing us.
    Yes. Good CW is still outdpsing us.

    PoP is new meta. Killing Flames is decent, Murderous Flames sucks.
    Gate of Hell damage is nice. Stay tooned.

    Pffffffft, I reckon in a less add focused dungeon you would have done better @fernuu, CN is an addfest, CW heaven :p
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    fernuu said:

    Yeah, I just respeced on live to Hellbringer and it deals more damage than Soulbinder probably :) Will upload some CN run.

    Yes. GWF is still outdpsing us.
    Yes. Good CW is still outdpsing us.

    PoP is new meta. Killing Flames is decent, Murderous Flames sucks.
    Gate of Hell damage is nice. Stay tooned.

    I do not expect that SW beat CW or GWF in dps performance .. But wondering do mainstream SW can afford play. I have guild boon which give me 5k def. So I can more less use DuckOnPlate more ofter. The warlock without extra 5k def = suicide,
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    flowcytoflowcyto Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    They did some additional buffs that weren't on the last round of changes on the shard, I think. At least, I noticed that they buffed Fiery Bolt's dmg a bit more (went from about 7.3-7.5k to ~9-10k on the same toon on live) and I think they buffed Hellish Rebuke's initial hit even more (hmm..).

    Kinda dumb that NPNM still changes Hellish Rebuke and rewards spamming its initial hit so much, but eh. Playing a simple PoP + KF/MK + Fiery Bolt setup is good, and feated Gates can hit hella hard.

    Glad to hear its also faring pretty well on the high-end w/ Fernuu. I can only offer a meager soloist's perspective, but that perspective has HB being quite better overall (and very fun, imo).
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
    - Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    fernuufernuu Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    Alliance Dragonflight:




    https://youtube.com/c/FernuStormborn

    Mod 10:
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.

    Mod 9:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
  • Options
    jobsalotofworkjobsalotofwork Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 189 Arc User
    Posting logs with no info doesn't help anyone. You need to provide context

    I was the only 4k dps with a full buff group in my alliance DF is all that means.

    Post the full combat log for the CN that may be interesting - log not act as so people can see everything.
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    fernuufernuu Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    Yeah, I got what it means. I will upload a video with acts, just keeping conversation up :)
    https://youtube.com/c/FernuStormborn

    Mod 10:
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.

    Mod 9:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
  • Options
    d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    Gates of Miss
    DuckOnPlate

    LOL

    I have a strong feeling GWF DPS is going to be reined in to the point that it is nearly equalized with other classes. This will happen with their class balance in due time. These GWFs can run ahead in CN and clear the room before the team arrives, haha!

    After the SW DPS fix+nerf (yes, we received both fixes and nerfs), the GWF is obviously superior in DPS. I am more interested to see how SWs compete against HR and CW in CN, eDemo, eToS, and eLoL.
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    candinho2candinho2 Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    The only reason to play HB is to toss Hellish Rebuke xD i realy love it, always did xD but i do like SB SS spam and i love life steal, and with SB i can see allll those green numbers flying over my head, it's beautiful
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    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG9-Eb9HwkY

    First 2 CN runs have fernu in. First 1 is SB, second 1 is HB.
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    taitinhakkaajataitinhakkaaja Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    So about 100 mil less damage for Fernu mod9 -> mod 10?
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User



    First 2 CN runs have fernu in. First 1 is SB, second 1 is HB.
    And third run proves that without SW u can do way faster XD

    If HB go with temptation build he is kinda useful for party due its debuffs.
    DuckOnPlate encounters buffs/debuffs +
    Feats: Dark Revelry + Aura of Cruelty + damnatio Power of the Nine Hells
    Not mentioned Temptation can provide minor healing, which give your Hp potions end cool time :)

    But as fury, Hb I could not utilize DuckOnPlate so well, because warlock died way to many times. U dash to boss/area cast Pop and u dead. Now I had BoVa which is 20% deflect chance + 8k Def. And it was not enough to hold warlock alive.

    I actually wondering what if DuckOnPlate had Life draining feature or damage reflect feature...
    Thats mean life drain> enemies who are in its effect area, get Hp drained and restored to warlock and players who are in PoP effect area... Thats mean over all boost warlocks healing + buff + debuff capability. For furry lift up survivability.

    As for damage reflect>> similar mechanic as warlock bargain.. Thats mean part of incoming hit like 10% is reflected/redirected to random enemy in PillaroPower effect area.. IF there is only 1 monster he receive redirected damage.

    But on top. I hope that one day this DuckOnPlate have same dps as BoVa.... :)
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Guys... WTF is "DuckOnPlate"?



    Edit: I've been informed it means Pillar of Power... Ya'll are weird.



    PS - Pillar of Power + Dreadtheft is pretty darn nice for HB...



    Post edited by kolatmaster on
    va8Ru.gif
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited August 2016

    Guys... WTF is "DuckOnPlate"?



    Edit: I've been informed it means Pillar of Power... Ya'll are weird.




    Dmg boost from PillarOfPower is nice. But its downside make warlock kinda sitting duck.
    During testings in preview server, I loved his dps boost, but when snow wolf get near you, he bite you and throw out of PoP effect area. So even if low/trash monster can easily throw warlock out of PoP effect area, I understand that in pvp warlock become Easy mark.. Hr's. Cw's even other SW's shoot warlock like sitting duck.. And Pillar of Power animation reminded me as cocking plate. So thats how DuckOnPlate name came.


    And over all, ducking style and dodge mechanic don't go well along each other.. Action mmorpg is not duck style gameplay. its more active, you dodge more... This PoP take away dodging. Good that @amenar widen its area effect.. So that more party members get benefits from it.


    PS - Pillar of Power + Dreadtheft is pretty darn nice for HB...

    Try combo>> PoP + Hadar grasp + BoVa + Flames of Phlegethos. < Even for temptation tree numbers are high.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • Options
    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    Guys... WTF is "DuckOnPlate"?



    Edit: I've been informed it means Pillar of Power... Ya'll are weird.




    Dmg boost from PillarOfPower is nice. But its downside make warlock kinda sitting duck.
    During testings in preview server, I loved his dps boost, but when snow wolf get near you, he bite you and throw out of PoP effect area. So even if low/trash monster can easily throw warlock out of PoP effect area, I understand that in pvp warlock become Easy mark.. Hr's. Cw's even other SW's shoot warlock like sitting duck.. And Pillar of Power animation reminded me as cocking plate. So thats how DuckOnPlate name came.


    And over all, ducking style and dodge mechanic don't go well along each other.. Action mmorpg is not duck style gameplay. its more active, you dodge more... This PoP take away dodging. Good that @amenar widen its area effect.. So that more party members get benefits from it.


    PS - Pillar of Power + Dreadtheft is pretty darn nice for HB...

    Try combo>> PoP + Hadar grasp + BoVa + Flames of Phlegethos. < Even for temptation tree numbers are high.
    You don't need to sit in the pillar, you can move out of it after you have cast it. Once you have benefited from it, it applies the buff to your character even if you are outside of the circle so long as the circle is there.
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User

    You don't need to sit in the pillar, you can move out of it after you have cast it. Once you have benefited from it, it applies the buff to your character even if you are outside of the circle so long as the circle is there.

    Actually by describsion and what written within Pillar of power in game.

    Create a conduit of power at your location. While you stand in the conduit, your Damage and Damage Resistance are in creased.
    If an enemy enters the conduit, their Damage and Damage Resistance are reduced for short duration and they take damage as long as they stand within the conduit.

    Plus buff effect work same as old Pillar Of Power. Thats mean actually you must< stand inside PoP effect area to get buff effect.

    I tested 2 min ago PoP, yeap, u get that buff for the moment. But its not clear, is that bug or not...
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • Options
    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited August 2016

    You don't need to sit in the pillar, you can move out of it after you have cast it. Once you have benefited from it, it applies the buff to your character even if you are outside of the circle so long as the circle is there.

    Actually by describsion and what written within Pillar of power in game.

    Create a conduit of power at your location. While you stand in the conduit, your Damage and Damage Resistance are in creased.
    If an enemy enters the conduit, their Damage and Damage Resistance are reduced for short duration and they take damage as long as they stand within the conduit.

    Plus buff effect work same as old Pillar Of Power. Thats mean actually you must< stand inside PoP effect area to get buff effect.

    I tested 2 min ago PoP, yeap, u get that buff for the moment. But its not clear, is that bug or not...
    Whilst the tooltip states that you must stand in it, the buff icon is clearly visible on your bar even when outside of the circle and your damage is actually increasing while that icon is up. (Its why in the video I was quickly teleporting into the pillar and then moving out of it.)
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    kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    @bloodyspamer, the PoP buff lasts for 5 Seconds after you leave the Circle, and should be refreshed if you walk/run back into it...

    So @thefabricant is correct, at least from my testing thus far. :)
    va8Ru.gif
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    thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    @bloodyspamer, the PoP buff lasts for 5 Seconds after you leave the Circle, and should be refreshed if you walk/run back into it...



    So @thefabricant is correct, at least from my testing thus far. :)

    @kolatmaster what would be really nice is if pillar of power was a toggle effect like KV (rather than a cast ability) where you toggled it and then the pillar would surround you and move with you. Basically, an effect like bond of virtue.
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    jobsalotofworkjobsalotofwork Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 189 Arc User
    The radius of pop is slightly larger then the graphic.

    The buff icon lasts ~1 second after you leave the area. It's possible the buff is simply a 1 second buff and is constantly refreshed if you're in the AOE.

    If you have the feat power of the nine hells. That makes the buff last 5seconds after you leave the area.

    So are you suggesting you keep the buff even when the icon disappears?

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