I've been talking to Amenar about some of the H/R changes, and I mentioned to him that I found the tooltip on the Combat capstone unclear. We're in text lock right now, so we can't fix it just yet, but I thought I'd tell people about our discussion, since people are saying the combat capstone seems weak.
What the tooltip text says now: "Melee At-Will attacks strike two additional times for 65% more damage"
Could be read as: I hit for 100, and then get two more strikes that do a total of 65. My total is 165.
How it really works: I hit for 100, and then I get two more hits, *each* of which does 165 (100 + 65). My total is 430.
I know people are saying that the at-wills are so low it doesn't matter. I haven't personally tested Combat, but I will say two things: * Four times the damage is a LOT. * Amenar tells me the base at-will dps is pretty much on par with other classes. Of course, buffs and bonuses can change that a lot. And fast attack speeds can make good dps look small. But I'm inclined to believe Amenar about the base dps. Whether the total buffs available to a combat H/R are enough to make the at-wills viable I think we don't know yet. But between Blade Hurricane and Piercing Blade, I think combat's got much better tools than it had.
One solution is to cut the damage on the captstone by a chunk and increase the duration of Flurry so it's not so much of a hit or miss mechanic. That or reduce the CD on certain powers like Boar Charge, Marauder's Rush.
Um, this dev reply is a bit confusing because now the capstone changed from 2 hits max to a 2-sec duration proc.
The issue wasn't that the at-wills were bad when Blade Hurricane was up- just that our at-will dps was terribly low once those procs ran out and our better dmg encounters were on cd. In light of the new paradigm for Combat, the length of that filler period w/ the basic at-will and few dmg bonuses was actually the main problem, because w/ the old 2-hit capstone and our longer cds (most were 11-12 sec+, even in decent gear) it created quite long periods of drought. In those times, you're basically only buffing the at-wills by the x*5% from Scything Blade, and the 40% from the old Piercing Blade, and maybe from Skirm's Gambit if you had very high crit. That's not many dmg modifiers for a Striker to depend on for using at-wills as its mainstay.
Those low periods and having to contend w/ them much of the time is why I and many others kept asking for a base dps boost to the at-wills- we thought that design was intended and we just had to deal with non-Flurry at-wills most of the time. From that vantage point, and knowing that Archers also struggled a bit w/ at-wills (and Trappers largely ignored them), asking for a base dps boost isn't really unreasonable. Is it unreasonable now? Maybe, but hindsight is 20/20.
Changing the capstone to a fixed duration and making some of the melee encounters much shorter cds helps a ton more since our at-wills tend to hit quickly, and now there's less lengthy drought periods w/ no Flurry and at-wills that are barely boosted by any bonuses. It shifts the paradigm a good deal. And its great.. but we didn't know how good the changes would really be until recently w/ the last update to the shard.
And when you say, 'pretty much on par w/ other classes', I imagine there's a pretty wide variance there as well. Say, a TR's melee at-wills vs. a GWF's at-wills as the benchmark.
And in light of that 2-sec duration for Flurry: its nice, but I wonder if it should be lengthened considerably and the bonus lowered a bit (maybe to 40-50% or so), as it'll make it work w/ more power setups, since only a few melee encounters have short cds atm.
One example of this issue is when trying to use Blade Hurricane w/ an attack w/ a long recovery animation like Boar's Charge. The long delay after impact means that you have less time to get hits in before Flurry fades. W/ a longer Flurry window, that's less of an issue.
It also seems like using other encounters in that window doesn't extend (or reset) the Flurry buff. I'm not sure if that's intended.
And when you say, 'pretty much on par w/ other classes', I imagine there's a pretty wide variance there as well. Say, a TR's melee at-wills vs. a GWF's at-wills as the benchmark.
VS perma or near perma crit GWFs, GWFs win, no contest. Unstoppable = CC immunity
Combat kinda feels like an old damnation puppet where it gets a chance to deal spike damage then it's cut from the equation for a moment from either being forced to dodge or getting CC'd and losing Flurry before landing a hit.
As well as Executioners being designed to melt bosses after a certain point. On top of that CC from smoke bomb.
My Combat HR melted the totem from the IWD slower than my GWF was. So there feels like some sorta of balance with being AoE heavy, but not amazing at single target.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
And in light of that 2-sec duration for Flurry: its nice, but I wonder if it should be lengthened considerably and the bonus lowered a bit (maybe to 40-50% or so), as it'll make it work w/ more power setups, since only a few melee encounters have short ones atm.
One example of this issue is when trying to use Blade Hurricane w/ an attack w/ a long recovery like Boar's Charge. The long delay after impact means that you have less time to get hits in before Flurry fades. W/ a longer Flurry window, that's less of an issue.
It also seems like using other encounters in that window doesn't extend (or reset) the Flurry buff. I'm not sure if that's intended.
Tooltip probably needs adjusted to make better sense of it. Not sure about only down to 40-50%, if the duration was doubled. Maybe the DEV who understands it more can make sense of the math.
@amenar Also, boar charge is still garbo with it's long CD and self CC. Marauder's Rush also has a long CD. Their low DPS doesn't really justify this.
Aye, I was just spit-balling. I'm down for the dmg bonus being lowered even more if its balanced w/ a 4-5 sec duration. I trust the devs having more easy access to the data/numbers here than we do.
So, looking at what I could realistically do for preventing the perma-daze build without affecting PvE, one possible solution would be something to the effects of:
In PvP, you may only be affected by Crushing Roots once every 3 seconds.
Both the amount of times, and the duration, could change to whatever makes sense. 3 times in 10 seconds, once every 5 seconds, etc. We still need a better "real" solution to CC in PvP - which won't happen in the immediate future - but at that point, maybe this limiter could come off.
Note that this is not a patch note yet, just asking for your feelings about something like this as a means to prevent more brokeness in PvP.
Here are my feelings. I am an HR. But I also fight HR's. I'm sure they hate when I daze them and vice versa. It's annoying. It makes the game far less fun when you are just locked up and useless. I am perfectly fine with and its understandable to remove or limit it. But, maybe also look at some of the crazy **** the oppressor CW can pull off. Lockup for days! Rogues can chain smoke bomb with high recovery. And once you are out of the smoke bomb they go invis, then they smoke bomb you again. Not fun. Feel useless. So unless you're planning on taking out the ridiculous stuff other classes do which imho, ruin the enjoyment, then maybe hold off on nerfing the HR's annoying aspect.
+1 One hundred times. I understand that crushing roots should be tuned down, but don't do it until every class has their CC tuned down as well. Without control we're not much in PVP, and you can see that with the Trans Elven enchants right now.
So, looking at what I could realistically do for preventing the perma-daze build without affecting PvE, one possible solution would be something to the effects of:
In PvP, you may only be affected by Crushing Roots once every 3 seconds.
Both the amount of times, and the duration, could change to whatever makes sense. 3 times in 10 seconds, once every 5 seconds, etc. We still need a better "real" solution to CC in PvP - which won't happen in the immediate future - but at that point, maybe this limiter could come off.
Note that this is not a patch note yet, just asking for your feelings about something like this as a means to prevent more brokeness in PvP.
I have a sugestion, if you want to to take away permanent daze from pvp that's fine, but nobody will use this class future in both pvp and pve again (it will be useless as battlehoned) if you not add second function like increase dmg to the foe by for example 5%/10%/15%/20% or change it completly like increase dmg to targets affected by roots for х %. Something similar to CW's Chilling Presence but based on hr's mechanic.
FEEDBACK: can we have cc and damage immunity on Marauder's Rush and Marauder's Escape, and possibly a CC break on Marauder's Escape?
+1,000,000
TR can dodge roll for like, a trillion yards, MIs have ITC. Combat HR doesn't even have extra mobility. You get in and have few options other than fox shift to avoid a large hit. Some nice synergy to evade a blow and quickly get back in.
ralexinor Posts: 555 Arc User 4:44PM Edited 4:44PM @rayrdan I can oneshot bis players on preview atm, lol. Archery is still not viable compared to trapper, though.
FEEDBACK: can we have cc and damage immunity on Marauder's Rush and Marauder's Escape, and possibly a CC break on Marauder's Escape?
You must be joking. Not just no, but bleep no.
And why not? The rotation for oneshotting is a VERY specific setup that anyone with half a brain can avoid. It takes a few seconds to execute, along with a specific setup that means if you miss, you have nothing for another 15 seconds, and you also need to be quite far away from your target. If you don't crit, or your attack gets deflected or the target has very high DR (cap), or they move out of range, or you take too long to execute your combo, then you're SoL and you have to run. It's not a viable build, it's just for trolling and lulz. It's impossible to use it on a node. You will also die to literally anything since there's a distinct lack of tenacity. Don't comment on things you don't understand.
Additionally marauders is NOT part of that rotation, and it benefits combat and archery, not specific for oneshotting.
So, looking at what I could realistically do for preventing the perma-daze build without affecting PvE, one possible solution would be something to the effects of:
In PvP, you may only be affected by Crushing Roots once every 3 seconds.
Both the amount of times, and the duration, could change to whatever makes sense. 3 times in 10 seconds, once every 5 seconds, etc. We still need a better "real" solution to CC in PvP - which won't happen in the immediate future - but at that point, maybe this limiter could come off.
Note that this is not a patch note yet, just asking for your feelings about something like this as a means to prevent more brokeness in PvP.
I have a sugestion, if you want to to take away permanent daze from pvp that's fine, but nobody will use this class future in both pvp and pve again (it will be useless as battlehoned) if you not add second function like increase dmg to the foe by for example 5%/10%/15%/20% or change it completly like increase dmg to targets affected by roots for х %. Something similar to CW's Chilling Presence but based on hr's mechanic.
the main pve problem with removing crushing roots daze effect is making the hr more vulnerable. yes removing crushing roots means hr's need more damage to compensate but they will also need better survivability. they are leather users not clothies, hr's should not be squishy; yet they are.
if heavy gear is tanky gear and cloth gear is caster then leather would be something in between tanky and caster. a dps with some small form of tanking; like pulling 20 enemies and killing them all in well of dragons or any end game zone. crushing roots is the main way to survive fights, as it keeps enemies from hurting the hr. without crushing roots my health will drop like a rock if don't use a healer companion.
perhaps rethink the way leather armor is and make all leather armor better for surviving before nerfing or removing crushing roots, that way all classes that use leather will get a buff. well i don't know just spouting ideas that are probably terrible.
when the max lvl was 60 i had no problem pulling and killing my enemies as an archery build and if i did get hit i wouldn't take all that much damage. so leather armor was actually good. but recently i noticed that when i am not dazing targets even for a second that my health drops really fast. would say 10-30% of my health every few seconds; depending on creatures pulled.
Only played Path finder this time due to wanted to run exactly how I normally play for now trapper 4269 IL pathfinder BUGS::: Thorned roots are not doing near damage they used to they are doing less per tick and they are canceling out when other feats are being used over all damage for total fight down 35% on roots
grasping roots in combat logs on everything they do shows o damage and o on every thing they trigger tested in WOD and IWD
Cordon in a long fight starts applying 0 damage it actually says cordon o damage in logs only fixes it when change zones .
Issues:
You really feel the max 5 hit on cordon in IWD HES takes longer to clear a large he and I am taking damage due to over all less damage getting hit by 8 t0 10 monsters a time. this will kill us in TIA Or Dungeons runs like VT or CN
Careful Attack does very little damage in crowd now. pathfinder tree done no reason to go there now
forest meditation cancel is unreliable
Dodge is just ok not great changes to SOTF a lot worst for killing mobs even with dailies and at wills timing is off from switching around may be able to over come a good bit of this with practice. But I will not be able to use the rotation I play the most constrict binding and cordon
likes Aimed shot thought don't expects it to stay like this. There will be QQing to beat the band in PVP
changes to SOTF a little better for fights against single target
Needs remove 5 max monsters hit with AOEs like cordon. We no longer can go with continuous spamming encounters because It has been reduced to where you have to incorporate a disruptive or slashers and a rapid shot or 2 to clear cool downs now this is loss of damage for trapper
fix so roots damage is back and does not get cancelled so can test encounter flow right now trapper has lost a lot of overall damage
Rapid shot needs damage boost now aimed shot will work for Archer but wont work for Trapper aimed takes to long. and does not work with smooth flow of trapper
This is exactly what I have been saying (without being able to test)... I could see and explained that these changes will kill off the Pathfinder Path, Storm Warden is much more powerful just by looking at the details.
The changes to Carful Attack and the many many improvements to Storm Warden only powers makes it a much better Path to choose soon.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
So we have at wills that are base damaged at 2k and lets say it crits with %150 crit severity that makes it 5k, and 4,3 times of 5k is guess what 21,5k hit. Lets say that we have all the bonuses from damage buffers like battle crazed, lucky blades etc. We will hit like 30 35k at most probably. So is that tooo much comparing to 100-200 k hits of Weapon Master s Strike? No it literally is not. Also blade hurricane needs its duration to be increased to 3 seconds because it starts with the skill animation and during the encounter animation we already lose half of the uptime.
may I suggest to look into the mount bonus of the skeletal steed and the sylvan stag? After toning down the insignias' bonuses that one is OP, I don't believe it is affected by healing depression and if that'd be the case, it still outplays insignias' healings before healing depression.
Swiftness of the fox change is what will cripple the Trapper. Yeah the fluidity may be there but I almost bet you the dmg compared to what it was isnt by being forced to use at-wills instead of another encounter. Against other classes we won't be as good get use to being bottom of the board. Oh and not to mention the fluidity in laggy places...that will serverly mess up the fluidity of the rotation.lol
Swiftness of the fox change is what will trash the HR.
Now seriously stop with these lame kind of comments and start to learn to play the HR, since SotF is even stronger than before, just learn how to use a rotation that includes dailies and at-wills.
Therefore i think the changes to swiftness are more an improvement than a downgrade, especially because they help shorten cd when facing only one or two enemies.
@amenar Just one example -> in dungeon run on boss now: i can use fox's cunning to cooldown my melee encounters (multiproc in party) and do not use cordon of arrows (slow animation and slow dps on solo target) then switch to melee and use PG+SB+fox -> to range.... Constricting+fox -> repeat. And i have good dps. On trash mobs -> i can use 1 time CoA and then often use PG. I can use Buff spec, when i cooldown my encounters by buffing teammates, and i do not have to use all encounters (with slow animation) or daily\at-will to spend more time to use usefull skills.
in preview: I have to use at-wils\daily very often to cooldown my encounters, and with this i loose my dps. And i can't use buff spec effectively.
Feedback Can we have some sort of bounce effect on boar charge? Its dps output is low, it has a sloooow animation...add at least some utility to it pls...btw thx for your work @amenar
Never thought I'd say this, but increasing Blade Hurricane to 3 sec duration might actually be....too powerful. Stuff already melts with the 2 sec duration.
I do see the issues, though, in that it limits us to certain encounters with slower recharges in order to ensure we keep BH spam up.
As an aside, I'd also be willing to give up my firstborn for some sort of movement bonus (outside of using a cheap daily and having to slot Pathfinder's Action). Maybe tack it on to Serpent Weave - shifting lowers cooldowns + increases runspeed? Both Archery (Hasty Retreat) and Trapper (Fleet Stance) have boosts to movement, but Combat doesn't. It feels weird running so slowly yet being the one that *needs* to move fastest to both get to the enemies, and be able to dodge red AoEs.
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lunartic666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 53Arc User
BUG: Elven Battle still bugging Pathfinder's Action.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
As an aside, I'd also be willing to give up my firstborn for some sort of movement bonus (outside of using a cheap daily and having to slot Pathfinder's Action). Maybe tack it on to Serpent Weave - shifting lowers cooldowns + increases runspeed? Both Archery (Hasty Retreat) and Trapper (Fleet Stance) have boosts to movement, but Combat doesn't. It feels weird running so slowly yet being the one that *needs* to move fastest to both get to the enemies, and be able to dodge red AoEs.
+1.
I think Combat needs a speed boost the most of the 3 trees. But a paltry 10% don't do, we need something akin to the 4p set bonus of the old pvp sets. In fact a HR should be moving that fast all the time.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Alright, this Hawkeye bug is really confusing. I've narrowed it down to several possible issues, but the test results are too inconsistent for me to tell what it really is. I can't consistently get it to bug out, but one thing I noticed was that standing in one position and doing Hawkeye -> Hawk Shot eventually resulted in Hawkeye not procing anymore. It takes a while. Respecing, adding feats, moving, or using a different skill like Longstrider's causes it to work again. This was tested with no feats or boons, full feats + boons, no weapon enchant and also using weapon enchant.
I honestly don't know what the exact cause is even after trying out every variable for an hour or so, sorry.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
FEEDBACK: can we have cc and damage immunity on Marauder's Rush and Marauder's Escape, and possibly a CC break on Marauder's Escape?
@amenar Feedback: this is exageratted... we are tryin to balance classes by their god damn roles : Striker/controller , Does a CW have a CC break? no Does a HR have a CC break? no Does a Warlock have a CC break? no Does a DC have a CC break ? no sure all of them can use like Meditation or Melstorm of chaos that gives them immunity frame... but breaking CC and be immune on CC is someth of a melee DEFENDER role ex: GWF , GF and Paladin.
we are tryin to get Impossible to Catch from Trickster rogue changed for this reason, and asking for a CC and damage immunity on Marauder's thats makin another superman class. So this is a bad idea and a bit overstepping the bounderies.
Again the purpose of these Striker classes is not to make them TANKIER than they are, thats the reason why they aren't dying in PvP, sure self healing is a part of it, but its called CLASS BALANCE with a reason.
So givin stuff like these, next threads will be towards the hunter ranger overperforimg.
Maybe for combat and trapper but if a archer HR gets caught he'll be made into fish soup right there, Archer advantage is distance so at least in archer tree this should work has cc breaker, adding it to botomless quiver, that like i said before is a little more than useless feat now out of pvp since encounter can be easly replaced in multi target for at wills at little cost and in single target aimed shot.
Comments
The issue wasn't that the at-wills were bad when Blade Hurricane was up- just that our at-will dps was terribly low once those procs ran out and our better dmg encounters were on cd. In light of the new paradigm for Combat, the length of that filler period w/ the basic at-will and few dmg bonuses was actually the main problem, because w/ the old 2-hit capstone and our longer cds (most were 11-12 sec+, even in decent gear) it created quite long periods of drought. In those times, you're basically only buffing the at-wills by the x*5% from Scything Blade, and the 40% from the old Piercing Blade, and maybe from Skirm's Gambit if you had very high crit. That's not many dmg modifiers for a Striker to depend on for using at-wills as its mainstay.
Those low periods and having to contend w/ them much of the time is why I and many others kept asking for a base dps boost to the at-wills- we thought that design was intended and we just had to deal with non-Flurry at-wills most of the time. From that vantage point, and knowing that Archers also struggled a bit w/ at-wills (and Trappers largely ignored them), asking for a base dps boost isn't really unreasonable. Is it unreasonable now? Maybe, but hindsight is 20/20.
Changing the capstone to a fixed duration and making some of the melee encounters much shorter cds helps a ton more since our at-wills tend to hit quickly, and now there's less lengthy drought periods w/ no Flurry and at-wills that are barely boosted by any bonuses. It shifts the paradigm a good deal. And its great.. but we didn't know how good the changes would really be until recently w/ the last update to the shard.
And when you say, 'pretty much on par w/ other classes', I imagine there's a pretty wide variance there as well. Say, a TR's melee at-wills vs. a GWF's at-wills as the benchmark.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
One example of this issue is when trying to use Blade Hurricane w/ an attack w/ a long recovery animation like Boar's Charge. The long delay after impact means that you have less time to get hits in before Flurry fades. W/ a longer Flurry window, that's less of an issue.
It also seems like using other encounters in that window doesn't extend (or reset) the Flurry buff. I'm not sure if that's intended.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Combat kinda feels like an old damnation puppet where it gets a chance to deal spike damage then it's cut from the equation for a moment from either being forced to dodge or getting CC'd and losing Flurry before landing a hit.
As well as Executioners being designed to melt bosses after a certain point. On top of that CC from smoke bomb.
My Combat HR melted the totem from the IWD slower than my GWF was. So there feels like some sorta of balance with being AoE heavy, but not amazing at single target.
@amenar Also, boar charge is still garbo with it's long CD and self CC. Marauder's Rush also has a long CD. Their low DPS doesn't really justify this.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Trapper final feat doesn't increase thorned roots duration, DoT last 11 sec (with ancient roots feat ) and 4 without it. Is this intended?
Guild:
Dragon Server-Essence of Aggression
Drider Server- TheWolves
youtube channel
(Xbox player, Trapper HR)
Guild:
Dragon Server-Essence of Aggression
Drider Server- TheWolves
youtube channel
just a random thought.
TR can dodge roll for like, a trillion yards, MIs have ITC. Combat HR doesn't even have extra mobility. You get in and have few options other than fox shift to avoid a large hit. Some nice synergy to evade a blow and quickly get back in.
Additionally marauders is NOT part of that rotation, and it benefits combat and archery, not specific for oneshotting.
if heavy gear is tanky gear and cloth gear is caster then leather would be something in between tanky and caster. a dps with some small form of tanking; like pulling 20 enemies and killing them all in well of dragons or any end game zone. crushing roots is the main way to survive fights, as it keeps enemies from hurting the hr. without crushing roots my health will drop like a rock if don't use a healer companion.
perhaps rethink the way leather armor is and make all leather armor better for surviving before nerfing or removing crushing roots, that way all classes that use leather will get a buff. well i don't know just spouting ideas that are probably terrible.
The changes to Carful Attack and the many many improvements to Storm Warden only powers makes it a much better Path to choose soon.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
Just one example -> in dungeon run on boss now:
i can use fox's cunning to cooldown my melee encounters (multiproc in party) and do not use cordon of arrows (slow animation and slow dps on solo target) then switch to melee and use PG+SB+fox -> to range.... Constricting+fox -> repeat.
And i have good dps.
On trash mobs -> i can use 1 time CoA and then often use PG.
I can use Buff spec, when i cooldown my encounters by buffing teammates, and i do not have to use all encounters (with slow animation) or daily\at-will to spend more time to use usefull skills.
in preview:
I have to use at-wils\daily very often to cooldown my encounters, and with this i loose my dps.
And i can't use buff spec effectively.
Can we have some sort of bounce effect on boar charge? Its dps output is low, it has a sloooow animation...add at least some utility to it pls...btw thx for your work @amenar
I do see the issues, though, in that it limits us to certain encounters with slower recharges in order to ensure we keep BH spam up.
As an aside, I'd also be willing to give up my firstborn for some sort of movement bonus (outside of using a cheap daily and having to slot Pathfinder's Action). Maybe tack it on to Serpent Weave - shifting lowers cooldowns + increases runspeed? Both Archery (Hasty Retreat) and Trapper (Fleet Stance) have boosts to movement, but Combat doesn't. It feels weird running so slowly yet being the one that *needs* to move fastest to both get to the enemies, and be able to dodge red AoEs.
I think Combat needs a speed boost the most of the 3 trees. But a paltry 10% don't do, we need something akin to the 4p set bonus of the old pvp sets. In fact a HR should be moving that fast all the time.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I honestly don't know what the exact cause is even after trying out every variable for an hour or so, sorry.