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Invoke changes on preview

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  • sorce#8115 sorce Member Posts: 1,009 Arc User

    [Note: this post is a continuation of the conversation in the previous (now closed) patch thread.]

    Invocation changes: I think Panderus has hit most of the points, but let me just clarify:
    * There is no "expiration" of the bonus. It won't ever go away. As long as you are actively playing the character, the new system should not leave you any worse off.
    * In fact, the new system leaves you better off (again, if you are playing the character) by about +20%, because it just gives you that much more AD (at L70 -- slight variations at lower levels, just due to rounding).
    * There is supposed to be a UI treatment that makes this all clear. Looks like that isn't in yet :(. But it basically looks like a glory boost, if you've ever used one of those. It's a buff icon that tells you how many more points of +50% earn rate you have left.
    * There is a cap on the total boost value you can get (all numerics in any game need some kind of cap, computers don't like infinities), but it's super-big. It's set to 100,000 AD, which is about a month's worth of boost. So you could invoke all day every day for a month (ok, 27 days to be precise) and still not lose a thing (again, in fact you get +20%). Past a month, and you'd hit the cap if you invoked the full amount every day that month but never played anything that earned you AD.
    * Characters that you never play with -- only invoke -- are the only ones that lose out. Which was the intention: more rewards for playing, less for characters you don't play.

    The above from the latest Preview Patch Note Thread. 27.7 days before you hit the cap (we are still unsure of the interaction with VIP).
  • virsalus#4183 virsalus Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    sm0ld3r said:

    Yeah there are bots, but all MMORPGs have them and experience with those shows that they come in all varieties. Ruining the invocation system will NOT stop the botters. They will just concentrate on other areas of the game more.

    And the Coalescent Wards from invocation? They have been more useful before Cryptic had the marvelous idea to make them BoA. Now I'll probably spend a few on artifact upgrading. But for Enchantments they are useless because I don't want to turn my Enchantments into BoA items. So another great step they took to get at the botters but all they really did was mess up the game more for people who do not use botting programs.

    Bound to account/character wards/RP/enchants do not make enchantments bound at all.
    This is true for stuff you use to feed the item RP, wards however will render the item bound to account on a successful upgrade. The game even tells you so.
    Not true at all. I used BoA wards to upgrade enchants and they were not bound.

    I guess we're kinda both right on this. Although regarding the Coalescent Wards from invocation, I definitely have to correct my earlier assertion. See, when I tested upgrades with account bound wards, I was using wards I bought during the Zen 50% off sale and apparently since it was the first time I ever charged Zen, the system flagged the transaction as "fishy" and rendered the wards account bound (thanks for yet another restriction hitting "good" people harder than bad ones). Apparently wards that got bound to account in such a manner will also bind the item they are used to upgrade. I also had some other account bound wards which I acquired ingame without any Zen shenanigans involved and those do not bind the items they are used to upgrade.
  • taitinhakkaajataitinhakkaaja Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    * In fact, the new system leaves you better off (again, if you are playing the character) by about +20%, because it just gives you that much more AD (at L70 -- slight variations at lower levels, just due to rounding).

    I settle for less, i wanna use this current invocation system.


  • stretch611stretch611 Member Posts: 123 Arc User
    Of course, with the changes to the value of t1 salvage and ring salvage, the 50% "bonus" ad leaves you just where you were before... and in some cases lower.
    @stretch611

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  • sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User

    Of course, with the changes to the value of t1 salvage and ring salvage, the 50% "bonus" ad leaves you just where you were before... and in some cases lower.

    LOL. 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
  • sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User

    sm0ld3r said:

    Yeah there are bots, but all MMORPGs have them and experience with those shows that they come in all varieties. Ruining the invocation system will NOT stop the botters. They will just concentrate on other areas of the game more.

    And the Coalescent Wards from invocation? They have been more useful before Cryptic had the marvelous idea to make them BoA. Now I'll probably spend a few on artifact upgrading. But for Enchantments they are useless because I don't want to turn my Enchantments into BoA items. So another great step they took to get at the botters but all they really did was mess up the game more for people who do not use botting programs.

    Bound to account/character wards/RP/enchants do not make enchantments bound at all.
    This is true for stuff you use to feed the item RP, wards however will render the item bound to account on a successful upgrade. The game even tells you so.
    Not true at all. I used BoA wards to upgrade enchants and they were not bound.

    I guess we're kinda both right on this. Although regarding the Coalescent Wards from invocation, I definitely have to correct my earlier assertion. See, when I tested upgrades with account bound wards, I was using wards I bought during the Zen 50% off sale and apparently since it was the first time I ever charged Zen, the system flagged the transaction as "fishy" and rendered the wards account bound (thanks for yet another restriction hitting "good" people harder than bad ones). Apparently wards that got bound to account in such a manner will also bind the item they are used to upgrade. I also had some other account bound wards which I acquired ingame without any Zen shenanigans involved and those do not bind the items they are used to upgrade.
    Yeah, that is a crazy system they implemented for that. They would be better off putting a hold on the zen till it all clears rather than that crazy bound chain that doesn't conform to the other existing rules for bound items. Do they really expect people to know which item is bound under which rules?
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited July 2016

    Yeah there are bots, but all MMORPGs have them and experience with those shows that they come in all varieties. Ruining the invocation system will NOT stop the botters. They will just concentrate on other areas of the game more.

    And the Coalescent Wards from invocation? They have been more useful before Cryptic had the marvelous idea to make them BoA. Now I'll probably spend a few on artifact upgrading. But for Enchantments they are useless because I don't want to turn my Enchantments into BoA items. So another great step they took to get at the botters but all they really did was mess up the game more for people who do not use botting programs.

    Bound to account/character wards/RP/enchants do not make enchantments bound at all.
    This is true for stuff you use to feed the item RP, wards however will render the item bound to account on a successful upgrade. The game even tells you so.
    They have different behavior from wards that were BoA from being bought from the Zen store while the account was on probation, and BoA wards from invoking. Invoke wards are safe.

    Edit: Oh hey, over the page, you figured this out.
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  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 525 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    This is not the first time invoking has changed. The first system was 3 invokes per day, starting at the highest reweard of AD, and decreasing in AD value. Also, you could invoke any time (after a cooldown) at any fire for a random bonus to stats, as many times per day as you wanted. The bonus would disappear every 15minutes. Also, you only got 1 ardent and celestial coin per day. There were no coupons from invoke. The bag for the coal ward took 1 week of invoking (first time invoke). Also, if you did not invoke every day, you lost coins. The whole process of invoking would be 2 hours...3 invokes 1 hour apart.

    The current 6 times a day invoke system, reversed the order of AD generation (starting with nothing), and added in a 2nd coin the 6th time, changed the time period in between, for a total wait time of 4 hours. The reason for increasing the number of invokes was to generate data that made it appear that more players were on the server, by creating a more cumbersome bonus that would generate more logins. Also, the random stat bonus that was applied directly for 15 minutes at any fire after a cooldown period, was replaced with the bonus you 'open' and can stash when needed. The bag/coupons were added, and then nerfed from 100% to 25% because they filled up the inventory.

    Both invoke systems had unrefined AD rewards, based on invoking. And, the playerbase responded to this availability to AD, by buying character slots. The 2nd system makes it more difficult to reach max AD by reversing the order of AD generation (the 5th invoke gets the most, the first nothing), but it also gives more max AD at higher levels (3000AD at lvl 70, non-VIP).

    With the suggested change to invoking on preview, each character will now receive a bonus of AD that can be refined per day. The change is supposed to eliminate characters that are used to generate AD by invoke only, and reward players who want to salvage items in the game by giving them more AD for items they already have.

    So, lets do some math, shall we?

    SCENARIO OF THE CASUAL PLAYER:
    1 character can invoke 6 times a day for a 50% bonus at 3600 unrefined AD. This means that you would need to earn 7200 raw AD and refine it to get the max 3600 per day. The unused bonus rolls over to a maximum cap of 100,000 bonus AD, or where you would need 200,000 raw AD to get the full bonus.

    So, lets say you have 1 account with 5 character slots, and you only have time/desire/money to play on 1 character. The other 4 you currently use to modestly boost your AD income.

    Lets also say you are sufficiently active to gain 10 items for salvage per day, from seals and dungeons/skirmishes/etc. This may be a stretch for some of you, but 10 items is about equal to 3 skirmishes, 4 dungeons + seals.

    Of those 10 items, on average you would earn 7 blue items and 3 purple.
    This will be the basis of my comparison. Also, I am not including any kind of VIP bonus.

    So, from 5 characters (assume all lvl 70), you earn 3000 AD each for a total of 15000AD per day.
    You can salvage the 7 blue at 3000AD each for 21000AD on 1 character that very day.
    You can salvage the 3 purple for (at an average, I know rings and things differ...) of 4000AD for 12000AD on the same character, and hit the 36k refine max.

    So, your total for the day: 15000 + 21000 + 12000 = 48000AD. You only used salvage on 1 characters and got all your AD in 1 day.

    With the new system:
    Invoking gets you 0 AD but gets you 3600 bonus AD at 50% refined. This means that you will need to have NO MORE THAN 7200 AD salvaged on each character or you are THROWING AWAY AD WITH NO BONUS.

    You still earn 10 items per day, 7 blue and 3 epic. But, wait, the amounts have changed.
    Blues are now 25% less... only 2k each. Purples are now 33% more, so average moves up to 5200.
    7 blues at 2000 each = 14000 AD.
    3 purples at 5200 each = 15600 AD. (****I know this is an average...just permit the analysis***)
    But, remember, you should only salvage up to 7200 per day on any ONE character, OR you lose out on the BONUS AD. You CAN store the bonus, but you will NOT GET the AD every day.
    So, in order to get the maximum bonus of AD every day, you would need to divide up your salvage even more than usual and salvage on characters that have the MAXIMUM bonus.
    So, on 1 toon, you can salvage 1 blue/1epic for 7200 + 3600 AD = 10800AD
    On a 2nd toon, you can salvage 1 blue/1 epic for 7200 +3600 AD = 10800AD
    On a third toon, you can salvage 1 blue/1 epic for 7200 + 3600 AD = 10800AD
    On a fourth toon, you can salvage 3 blues for 6000 + 3000AD = 9000 AD (you should not do a 4th blue, because it would go over daily max). On this toon, you will have 600 bonus carried over to the next day. Is there any indicator how much? I hope there is a visible indicator easily seen on the character.
    On a fifth toon, you can salvage 1 blue for 2000 + 1000 AD = 3000AD, and carry over 2600 bonus to the next day.
    Your total from salvage on 5 toons = 44400 AD.

    Lets say you don't want to invoke anymore on all 5 characters, because its a drag, you just salvage all items on the 1 character like before, for the 36k limit.
    7 blues at 2000 each =14000
    3 epics at 5200 each = 15600
    bonus AD from salvaging 3600
    Your total AD from doing the same thing as before: 33200 AD.

    Let's compare.
    Current system: 48000AD with full invokes on 5 characters, 10 items, salvaged on 1 character.
    Proposed system: 44400AD with full invokes on 5 characters, 10 items, salvaged on 5 characters OR 33200AD if you only full invoke on 1 character and nothing on the other 4 and salvage on only 1 character.


    Add in VIP, and it only adds how many characters you will NEED to invoke every day to get the bonus AD.

    The proposed system does not decrease the number of invokes a player would do to get similar AD on unused characters. It will make the invokes necessary so that the bonus for the AD on salvageable items is present.

    My math is not rock solid, as I am 'guessing' at the value of epic salvage across the board, and some epic items are changing in their base value anyway. I chose 4000 and 5200 based on an average.

    CONCLUSION TO ABOVE SCENARIO:
    The only way to make up for the lack of AD from each character's invoking is to utilize the bonus, and this requires more effort overall from the same player for what-looks-like less rewards. Or, to put it another way: the only way to approach the AD you are currently making with X characters invoking every day, is to setup a system of salvage that utilizes the bonus on each character and not going over it until all the bonuses are used.






    Post edited by checkmatein3 on
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  • bobby4700bobby4700 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 179 Arc User
    So if u get more ad from salvage after u invoke . that's just another slap in the face for those that bought into the VIP
  • gphxgphxgphxgphx Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    <</p>

    Just think about what happened to r4&r5 prices after they were removed from nodes.

    Yeah, stripping the nodes made soloing the daily quest dungeons seem pointless and much less fun. Now harvesting them just leads to a bag full of useless bound mount trinkets anyway. Much of my time was spent doing those, Leadership, and Invoking. Everything I actually like to do keeps getting nerfed to death to 'combat bots'. All I really want them to do is leave my stuff alone.

  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 525 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    A SECOND SCENARIO:
    If you look at my mathematical scenario above, it assumes a casual player with 5 characters in 1 account, but the player only plays one character and invokes/salvages on the rest. This turned out to be worse in AD for that player.

    But, what about a player that PLAYS on all 5 characters, is it worse?

    The answer depends on whether daily/weekly quests that grant AD generate unrefined AD on the bonus. I just tested on preview today (after the patch) by doing the Weekly Dread Ring quest that grants 4500 unrefined AD. I performed the quest after 1 invoke, so if it grants bonus AD, I should receive 300 AD more. I received 4800AD, not 4500. So, the conclusion is that daily and weekly quests can CONSUME the 3600 AD bonus.

    So, lets go back to a player that plays on 5 lvl 70 characters.
    Lets say the player does 1 dungeon and 1 skirmish per day on each player, invokes to maximum on each character, and has 1 blue/1 epic item to salvage on each character. I will not include VIP in this mathematical analysis.

    Current Invoke System: 5 characters x 3000 AD from invoking = 15000AD.
    1 Skirmish (average) =2500 AD x 5 characters = 12500 AD
    1 Dungeon (average) = 5000 AD x 5 characters = 25000 AD
    1 blue item = 3000 AD x 5 characters = 15000 AD
    1 epic item (average) = 4000 AD x 5 characters = 20000 AD
    Total AD = 87500 AD

    Proposed System: 5 characters invoking full get 3600 AD bonus each
    1 skirmish (average) = 2500 AD x 5 characters = 12500
    1 Dungeon = 5000 AD x 5 characters = 25000AD
    Bonus AD from 1 dungeon and 1 skirmish AFTER number full invoke = 3600AD x 5 characters = 18000AD
    Bonus AD from 1 dungeon and 1 skirmish if completed before full invokes = NOT 3600 AD!!!!
    1 blue item = 2000AD x 5 characters = 10000AD
    1 epic item 5200AD x 5 characters = 26000AD
    Total AD = 91500 AD.

    CONCLUSION WITH A CAVEAT:
    This is more than the scenario where the same player under the current system is invoking 5 times and running 1 dungeon/1 skirmish/ 2 salvages each day. However, there is ONE HUGE, MONUMENTAL, GROSS FLAW!!!

    You make MORE AD this way IF and ONLY IF you WAIT to run anything/salvage AFTER you have invoked and gain the 3600 bonus (or you have it stored up from other days when you only invoked and did nothing)!
    So, you MUST invoke fully (with a 4 hour wait period) and THEN run dailies/weeklies/salvages with the 3600 bonus ready.

    If you do not wait (or have the bonus stored up), the amount you have available for the bonus will be less, in the steps provided by the invoke.

    Post edited by checkmatein3 on
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends




  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    I like this :) I never invoke more than once in my alts (I do it only for Celestial Coins), so I'm gonna be earning more through this.
    FrozenFire
  • virsalus#4183 virsalus Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    I still don't see how this is going to hit botters harder than legit players. They'll just set up their bots to finish the invocation chains on all their chars first, then let them run dungeons and skirmishes.
  • sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User

    I still don't see how this is going to hit botters harder than legit players. They'll just set up their bots to finish the invocation chains on all their chars first, then let them run dungeons and skirmishes.

    I think the more important question is why don't the folks at cryptic realize this and stop wasting development time on something that doesn't help the players and won't have any impact on the game or bots.

    I'd like to see the missing dungeons brought back before they waste time on garbage like this.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,514 Arc User
    gphxgphx said:



    Yeah, stripping the nodes made soloing the daily quest dungeons seem pointless and much less fun. Now harvesting them just leads to a bag full of useless bound mount trinkets anyway. Much of my time was spent doing those, Leadership, and Invoking. Everything I actually like to do keeps getting nerfed to death to 'combat bots'. All I really want them to do is leave my stuff alone.

    "Useless bound mount trinkets" can be fed to the stronghold coffer as gems.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    gphxgphx said:



    Yeah, stripping the nodes made soloing the daily quest dungeons seem pointless and much less fun. Now harvesting them just leads to a bag full of useless bound mount trinkets anyway. Much of my time was spent doing those, Leadership, and Invoking. Everything I actually like to do keeps getting nerfed to death to 'combat bots'. All I really want them to do is leave my stuff alone.

    "Useless bound mount trinkets" can be fed to the stronghold coffer as gems.
    I do this but....

    It's a bunch of fiddly space-consuming micromanagement for *very* low returns.

    I store every insignia I pick up in backup mounts and deposited all the ones I feel are useless during the most recent 2xGuildMarks event, which is another layer of micromanagement first putting them into a mount and then taking them out again.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Member Posts: 832 Arc User
    reg1981 said:

    You do realized that there is more AD generated from automating baby dungeons right? This IS NOT something i do (check my logs) but you can't tell me you've not seen it running through with alts!! I had one the other day that followed me everywhere and stopped with I stopped and everything. There was no doubt in my mind it was either a bot set to assist or a player who straight up used the /follow command to just walk along behind me.

    I have 52 toons, each can generate what 10k a day for 2 dungeons(5k each). 520k a day. Half that, one run with each toon 260k which is still more than invoking with all my toons.

    I invoke from home and work. From work I use remote desktop to access my home PC. The game is not playable this way but invoking is.

    Wow. 52 toons. I can't even imagine that. I have 8 - 1 for each class type - and most days I don't have the energy/drive to invoke all 8 even twice.

  • virsalus#4183 virsalus Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    Who would even do dungeon runs on 52 characters every day? That is insane. Even if you managed to cut the average run time to around 5 minutes, 2 runs per char would take more than 8 hours of doing nothing but running dungeons. Even half that is still insane. 4 hours of running the same dungeon every day? Nope.
  • romotheoneromotheone Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 729 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    @virsalus you can have an educated guess. Who is capable of doing it? Yup. Bots.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,514 Arc User


    I do this but....

    It's a bunch of fiddly space-consuming micromanagement for *very* low returns.

    I store every insignia I pick up in backup mounts and deposited all the ones I feel are useless during the most recent 2xGuildMarks event, which is another layer of micromanagement first putting them into a mount and then taking them out again.

    Yes, but they do stack in your bags.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rolotcwrolotcw Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 20 Arc User
    As soon as this change comes online that will be it for me. Have fun guys.
  • zekethesinnerzekethesinner Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 805 Arc User
    rolotcw said:

    As soon as this change comes online that will be it for me. Have fun guys.

    And why is so bad for u? Were u maybe bot-invoking on 400 toons like some guild leaders here? No? Then why is it a problem?
    Im looking forward to this change, we will just farm 10x etos per day, no biggie. I should end up with 20% more ad per day actually. \o/

    (Sin)cerely
    Kain


  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    tousseau said:

    "we will just farm 10x etos per day, no biggie. "

    _________________

    If that's your idea of fun and engaging gameplay... Have at it.

    Not like farming 10x elol was any different. My problem with the upcoming changes is that I'll be getting mostly protector's seals which you can only exchange for BtC salvage. If they changed it to BtA I'd have no problem with it.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
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