Of all the words your title yells at me, none of them mentions you're talking about PvP. I'm glad I correctly surmised before stables were released that they would ruin an already ruined PvP and so pre-emptively abandoned it, though.
I had caps lock on and wasn't paying attention, it wouldn't allow me to go back and change it. Thanks for your thoroughly informative, non-trolly, thoughtful addition to this forum post. I always appreciate it when people truly put effort into their obviously insightful replies.
If you want others to be thoughtful, it might help if you bother to pay enough attention to know if your caps lock key was on while you were writing something. You kind of surrender your basis for criticizing when you can't even manage that much. Using more parsable grammar in the title is also suggested if you want to stay on your high horse.
If anyone actually paid attention, you'd know that when you open a post on the Vanilla forums, all the titles are in all caps. Go check out any other post in this forum - once you open it the title is in All caps. When looking at the sub section itself, the title is in standard upper/lower (as it was typed by the original poster).
I can answer for PVE only: My DO faithful´s healing feels completely superfluous more often than not. Of course my dc can outpace the myriad HoT effects or small heals from a ton of sources with a divine BoH or Capstone. Yay-.- He sometimes feels giddy to have found a really horrible pug team that may require some healing but it doesn´t happen often (admittedly I rarely pug ECC, EGWD, eDemo so I dunno about those). My cw is a virtual healing machine that doesn´t require a dc for healing, too (rene capstone being only a very minor factor in that). I try to remember to at least switch the life steal guild boon for the defense boon if a healer dc is around. Not that it matters, really. A dc may make my little control wuss feel like an actual dps going beserk with the fireworks due to damage buffing but healing...not needed. And yah, I think that´s bad.
I can answer for PVE only: My DO faithful´s healing feels completely superfluous more often than not. Of course my dc can outpace the myriad HoT effects or small heals from a ton of sources with a divine BoH or Capstone. Yay-.- He sometimes feels giddy to have found a really horrible pug team that may require some healing but it doesn´t happen often (admittedly I rarely pug ECC, EGWD, eDemo so I dunno about those). My cw is a virtual healing machine that doesn´t require a dc for healing, too (rene capstone being only a very minor factor in that). I try to remember to at least switch the life steal guild boon for the defense boon if a healer dc is around. Not that it matters, really. A dc may make my little control wuss feel like an actual dps going beserk with the fireworks due to damage buffing but healing...not needed. And yah, I think that´s bad.
I see a lot of healers going "buffbot" because of just that reason. Most classes are, at least somewhat, self sustaining with internal healing. I'd like to hear from more DC's and healadin's and see if they concur. Thanks for your input!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
This thread is fine for General Discussion (PC) subforum. Please stop reporting to have it moved to PvP subforum. Thank you.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
If you agree or disagree, let me know what you think.
P.S. I'd also like to hear what primarily PVEers think about all this healing. Is it too much? Not enough? Does it really make a difference? Feel free to post relevant comments below!
I quit playing PVP at the beginning of Maze Engine because of its endless list of broken things. To the OP, I agree that regeneration needs to be brought back as it was--there is so much else to complain about. I carry a stone of health in PVE.
But you might have started with ArPen. You can have the Stronghold boon, rock Darks in your offensive slots, and trot around on a multimillion AD axebeak and still not have enough.
Tenacity is a wrecking ball for crit, so bye-bye Vorpal, azure enchants, etc. Everyone gets to carry Feytouched.
Do you prefer Negation or Elven Battle? Choice? There's your choices.
You say you wanted a Hybrid build??? Hahahahahahah.
You can build enough armpen to be effective against cloth/leather wearers. You can build enough power to be effective against heavy armor wearers. Crit is HIGHLY effected by tenacity, however if it wasn't that 60K iceknife you got hit with would be 150K or more. Insta death everywhere. My GF crits for 4-600K with a feytouched which is then mitigated down by tenacity. Would you prefer I put on a vorpal and hit you without tenacity?. My GWF can hit for 200K with a crit IBS, this is also tempered by tenacity.
My point is if you want to get rid of tenacity you MUST tone down people's stats. The power creep makes everyone capable of one shots. The two ways of decreasing that damage is 1) Giving everyone an extra layer of defense against it (tenacity) 2) Writing difficult code that, to some degree, equalizes stats so that crazy burst damage won't occur.
My only qualm is that tenacity should be given out to ALL characters on their character sheet. It should automatically activate upon entering PVP just like your PVP boons do. This would give people the freedom to wander in as casual PVPers without getting one shotted. It would also allow you more freedom to mix and match gear.
However none of this really has anything to do with my discussion which is about the self healing that is available. There is so much that end gamers are almost unkillable in both PVE and PVP. I don't feel this should be the case.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Each time we pay to build our characters someone sneezes to knock down our card castle.
I built my character based on regeneration first... 6000+ regeneration with buffs and maxing artifacts, then regeneration got nerfed.
Next I built my character around lifesteal, and now you are asking for it to get nerfed.
Instead of asking for life steal nerf, ask for stronghold boon nerfs!
I didn't say lifesteal had to be nerfed, I said it was one of multiple sources of incoming healing. If you read my beginning post I cited LOADS of different types of healing. Insignias and mounts are actually one of my main concerns tbh. However, endless consumption may be something they want to look at as well. Also, I should interject here that this thread does me no favors either.. ALL my toons are centered around healing and lifesteal and insignias and waterwheels and drowned weapons.
You shouldn't assume that you're a Martyr when changes occur or are proposed. I had toons built around regen as well, this discussion is about what's best overall for the game both in PVE and PVP.
As far as asking for stronghold boon nerfs I'm not opposed to something like halving their effectiveness in PVP but ONLY if there is little to no internal healing because right now it's the only thing allowing people to kill at all. However there is no correlation I can see between saying healing is too much and desiring a SH boon nerf except that you dislike anyone potentially affecting your build so you prefer to nerf everyone who worked hard on their Strongholds even though it's a non sequitur.
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I think you are fighting a losing battle. Mod 10 brings these- Slayer's Redemption (M10) 2 Crescent, 1 Enlightened Whenever you kill a target, you are healed for 10% of your maximum Hit Points over 5 seconds. Victim's Preservation (M10) 1 Crescent, 2 Barbed Whenever you take greater than 35% of your Maximum Hit Points in pre-mitigated damage from a single blow, you are healed for 10% of your maximum Hit Points over 5 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
I am well aware, I actually stated that in my post as well. This is one of the reasons I'm trying to address it. I may be fighting a losing battle but, as I see it, it's the right side of that battle. Not every battle lost was because the other side was more just. What they're going to find is they are mooting out healer classes in the game. If I mained a healer class I'd be up in arms about this junk. They're relegating them to buff bots in PVE and tanks in PVP. What fun is that?
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I personally like my healing ability in pve. In dnd tbtg pnp and dND old console games I would always go for vampire drain lifesteal life leeching weapons.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
I am curious what your proposals to change things are for PVE. I only see self-regulation as a solution to PVP, along with nerfing Tenacity DR and ARP Resist and adding more healing depression.
Firstly to stop adding in heals to every new thing in the game. No more healing boons, no more healing insignias, no more healing mounts and artifacts. Perhaps taking a look at endless consumption. Decreasing it's chance at proccing or decreasing it's effectiveness. Then addressing the current boons/insignias so that no man is an island.
Nerfing Tenacity is not something I have proposed. I keep maintaining that at the current rate of power creep that's a very bad idea. Giving it freely to everyone is what I have proposed. I do think more healing depression in PVP is necessary or simply to turn boons and insignias off in PVP.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Thanks for your input man, I think perhaps tuning it back may be enough in PVE but it would need to be done by actually adjusting the insignias for example to give less heals or to have interal cool downs.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I'd be interested to know if you're PVP geared, your IL, if you have Legendary mounts/all insignias. The reason I would ask is because, in my post, I said end game (meaning BIS vs BIS) at that level literally only the GF and TR are node clearers. This has been established in end game matches. Now at mid game anything can kill anything, just some are more effective. I also agree that boons are a huge damage/survivability boost to PVPers. I would LOVE to see across the board changes that would help people who don't primarily PVP become more able to stand in PVP and not insta die. It would seem that on the PTR next mod you can get an end game set of PVP gear for tarmalune bars. If this goes live it will be a great addition allowing people to take advantage of their VIP access to get gear.
The problems you address are all relevant but I didn't intend to try and address an overarching issue facing PVP. If I were to do so it would cover:
1) Tenacity should be on character sheet, not gear bound. Thus PVP wouldn't be such a hazing ritual for new players. Tenacity is ungodly OP in PVP. If you don't have it... you will 100% get rekt.
2) Boons from end game guilds. There should be some level of equivalence amongst players in PVP. Not allowing it then causes a disparity that can't be bridged.
3) Class balancing. Burst damage tends to win in PVP as DoT damage with so much healing tends to be mooted out except at low level with no tenacity/internal healing.
4) Drains and Ambush rings abolished. For the love of the gods do we even need to go over this again?
5) Getting rid of AD for people who have 600 points. So many people Q just to instantly "GG" and get 600 points to farm their daily AD. If you end up on their team it's an insta loss, if you end up against them it's a boring waste of a match. There should not be AD involved unless you win, period. Thus it would encourage people who are competitive and seeking to actually PVP to play, farm, get gear, get better builds, and get in guilds that do PVP. Give PVEers another source of AD to compensate for it. It makes it too tempting for them to throw matches they have no interest in fighting.
These are the primary issues I would see related to PVP.
If you are dying "TOO fast" I would say it's a lack of either tenacity, guild boons, insignias/internal healing related, or perhaps all the above.
Thanks for your reply.
As as CW, I run Elemental Burning set (everywhere), I have 4 mythic aritfacts, legendary weapons and set (LoL). My ilvl is around 3.7K. Not BiS, but also not low end either.
I agree with all 5 of those points - except perhaps point 5. It's so hard to win when you're pugging unless you just get lucky that there should be some reward anyway. 600 points? Maybe that's the wrong metric and we need some new metric to go by.
I don't find myself dying too fast, not usually, especially if there's a DC (which goes to your point about healing). All I'm saying is that if there's a downward adjustment to healing, there needs to be a simultaneous adjustment to damage too. Maybe not 1 for 1, but both need to be considered because it's the massive uptick in damage that made the massive uptick in healing sources necessary in the first place.
My only qualm is that tenacity should be given out to ALL characters on their character sheet. It should automatically activate upon entering PVP just like your PVP boons do. This would give people the freedom to wander in as casual PVPers without getting one shotted. It would also allow you more freedom to mix and match gear.
On that we agree. There's no reason to force new players to deal with high-tenacity players as well as be low-geared.
I don't think that toning down crit is a bad thing in PVP, but it shouldn't be made useless, either. I know some who can give mathematical examples of when crit IS useful in PVP, but they seem to be reaching.
My only qualm is that tenacity should be given out to ALL characters on their character sheet. It should automatically activate upon entering PVP just like your PVP boons do. This would give people the freedom to wander in as casual PVPers without getting one shotted. It would also allow you more freedom to mix and match gear.
On that we agree. There's no reason to force new players to deal with high-tenacity players as well as be low-geared.
I don't think that toning down crit is a bad thing in PVP, but it shouldn't be made useless, either. I know some who can give mathematical examples of when crit IS useful in PVP, but they seem to be reaching.
I agree with this as well. When Lostmauth set was still OP and stacking with damage multipliers crit still had value. Now unless you're a class that can afford to run with vorpal (i.e. TR in PVP) or can stack crit severity it actually doesn't make sense to go crit for PVP as sometimes your damage will be less with crits than with non crits. I think the crit calculation for tenacity is definitely due a revisit, especially when some classes (like GWF) are heavily weighted towards crit builds (i.e. crit severity built into heroic feats).
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I'd be interested to know if you're PVP geared, your IL, if you have Legendary mounts/all insignias. The reason I would ask is because, in my post, I said end game (meaning BIS vs BIS) at that level literally only the GF and TR are node clearers. This has been established in end game matches. Now at mid game anything can kill anything, just some are more effective. I also agree that boons are a huge damage/survivability boost to PVPers. I would LOVE to see across the board changes that would help people who don't primarily PVP become more able to stand in PVP and not insta die. It would seem that on the PTR next mod you can get an end game set of PVP gear for tarmalune bars. If this goes live it will be a great addition allowing people to take advantage of their VIP access to get gear.
The problems you address are all relevant but I didn't intend to try and address an overarching issue facing PVP. If I were to do so it would cover:
1) Tenacity should be on character sheet, not gear bound. Thus PVP wouldn't be such a hazing ritual for new players. Tenacity is ungodly OP in PVP. If you don't have it... you will 100% get rekt.
2) Boons from end game guilds. There should be some level of equivalence amongst players in PVP. Not allowing it then causes a disparity that can't be bridged.
3) Class balancing. Burst damage tends to win in PVP as DoT damage with so much healing tends to be mooted out except at low level with no tenacity/internal healing.
4) Drains and Ambush rings abolished. For the love of the gods do we even need to go over this again?
5) Getting rid of AD for people who have 600 points. So many people Q just to instantly "GG" and get 600 points to farm their daily AD. If you end up on their team it's an insta loss, if you end up against them it's a boring waste of a match. There should not be AD involved unless you win, period. Thus it would encourage people who are competitive and seeking to actually PVP to play, farm, get gear, get better builds, and get in guilds that do PVP. Give PVEers another source of AD to compensate for it. It makes it too tempting for them to throw matches they have no interest in fighting.
These are the primary issues I would see related to PVP.
If you are dying "TOO fast" I would say it's a lack of either tenacity, guild boons, insignias/internal healing related, or perhaps all the above.
Thanks for your reply.
As as CW, I run Elemental Burning set (everywhere), I have 4 mythic aritfacts, legendary weapons and set (LoL). My ilvl is around 3.7K. Not BiS, but also not low end either.
I agree with all 5 of those points - except perhaps point 5. It's so hard to win when you're pugging unless you just get lucky that there should be some reward anyway. 600 points? Maybe that's the wrong metric and we need some new metric to go by.
I don't find myself dying too fast, not usually, especially if there's a DC (which goes to your point about healing). All I'm saying is that if there's a downward adjustment to healing, there needs to be a simultaneous adjustment to damage too. Maybe not 1 for 1, but both need to be considered because it's the massive uptick in damage that made the massive uptick in healing sources necessary in the first place.
I'm glad we see eye to eye mostly. The reason I'm not a fan of giving AD away for losing is that it sets a poor precedence. In PVE you don't get a consolation prize for not clearing the Boss of a dungeon. The only way to get AD from a dungeon run is to complete it, essentially "winning" your AD as well as getting loot that can be salvaged. So you must be successful, you can't "throw" a dungeon to get AD.
How ticked off would your party be if you were able to come in, get to the boss and say "gg boss" and get 3K ad then stand off to the side till your team left the dungeon? Well that's what it's like when you get people who literally tell you they're only coming in to PVP to say "gg" and hope to cap for 600 points. It's a waste of time for every other of the 9 players hoping to play an actual match.
This is why I say you should only get the AD for successful completion (i.e. winning). Then noone could "throw" matches for a few AD.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,093Arc User
That might help kill the PvP bots, as well. All they do is dance to the center node, stand, run off the node, stand, run back to the node...
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
It works wonders in PvE, the cooldowns on the potions, and the low healing of the potions as a % of my HP were not sufficient for dungeons and I am not in the mood to buy healing stones. I like the healing from life steal and boons, when you wear them all its a bit much but you don't have to wear them all, it's great to have options on something.
As far as PVE goes it seems to me you would want all healing to come from healing classes thus making them both necessary and relevant not to mention they would have to work harder to keep the team alive vs. angry mobs?
Which...makes it impossible to solo (which is a big part of this game!!!).
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i woudnt say to remove self regen but to nerf it from 100% to 30-50%. its just too much
They should have never changed it in the first place. Prior to mod 6 it gave you a steady trickle of HP but was never OP (I should know: I stacked it). It was useful during combat but it had limits.
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I'm glad we see eye to eye mostly. The reason I'm not a fan of giving AD away for losing is that it sets a poor precedence. In PVE you don't get a consolation prize for not clearing the Boss of a dungeon. The only way to get AD from a dungeon run is to complete it, essentially "winning" your AD as well as getting loot that can be salvaged. So you must be successful, you can't "throw" a dungeon to get AD.
How ticked off would your party be if you were able to come in, get to the boss and say "gg boss" and get 3K ad then stand off to the side till your team left the dungeon? Well that's what it's like when you get people who literally tell you they're only coming in to PVP to say "gg" and hope to cap for 600 points. It's a waste of time for every other of the 9 players hoping to play an actual match.
This is why I say you should only get the AD for successful completion (i.e. winning). Then noone could "throw" matches for a few AD.
Yes, for players it is possible to gain a lot of regeneration. But each regeneration feat/insignia/boon/mount can be countered by dd feat/insignia/boon/mount. You need just to work well in team and it will be much more easy to push someone back.
Also I would like to add that maybe it will be better to wait for changes in SW and HR. Because for example HR in PvP now provide just CC. But after changes HR will be able to deal much much more damage as it was in early modules. That is why I think that healing will be compensated by improved damage of some classes
exactly thats how i also think, it already does for few classes.
I agree that certain classes need to be targeted for more damage. However I disagree that damage boons/insignias moot out the healing boons/insignias as proven by end game matches where self healing prevents deaths.
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Do you mean that only the winning team gets glory? In that case, I'd have to think about it. My main goal is to keep people who are completely not interested in PVP except for the AD gain out. You could argue that some of them just want to get PVP gear, in which case I would say definitely give them glory for the attempt. However, you could also say they're hoping to get PVP gear to salvage or to turn into their guild coffers for "surplus". In which case you may run into a similar problem, albeit most likely on a smaller scale.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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My cw is a virtual healing machine that doesn´t require a dc for healing, too (rene capstone being only a very minor factor in that). I try to remember to at least switch the life steal guild boon for the defense boon if a healer dc is around. Not that it matters, really. A dc may make my little control wuss feel like an actual dps going beserk with the fireworks due to damage buffing but healing...not needed. And yah, I think that´s bad.
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My point is if you want to get rid of tenacity you MUST tone down people's stats. The power creep makes everyone capable of one shots. The two ways of decreasing that damage is 1) Giving everyone an extra layer of defense against it (tenacity) 2) Writing difficult code that, to some degree, equalizes stats so that crazy burst damage won't occur.
My only qualm is that tenacity should be given out to ALL characters on their character sheet. It should automatically activate upon entering PVP just like your PVP boons do. This would give people the freedom to wander in as casual PVPers without getting one shotted. It would also allow you more freedom to mix and match gear.
However none of this really has anything to do with my discussion which is about the self healing that is available. There is so much that end gamers are almost unkillable in both PVE and PVP. I don't feel this should be the case.
You shouldn't assume that you're a Martyr when changes occur or are proposed. I had toons built around regen as well, this discussion is about what's best overall for the game both in PVE and PVP.
As far as asking for stronghold boon nerfs I'm not opposed to something like halving their effectiveness in PVP but ONLY if there is little to no internal healing because right now it's the only thing allowing people to kill at all. However there is no correlation I can see between saying healing is too much and desiring a SH boon nerf except that you dislike anyone potentially affecting your build so you prefer to nerf everyone who worked hard on their Strongholds even though it's a non sequitur.
Thanks for your reply.
Thanks for your reply.
In dnd tbtg pnp and dND old console games I would always go for vampire drain lifesteal life leeching weapons.
Nerfing Tenacity is not something I have proposed. I keep maintaining that at the current rate of power creep that's a very bad idea. Giving it freely to everyone is what I have proposed. I do think more healing depression in PVP is necessary or simply to turn boons and insignias off in PVP.
I agree with all 5 of those points - except perhaps point 5. It's so hard to win when you're pugging unless you just get lucky that there should be some reward anyway. 600 points? Maybe that's the wrong metric and we need some new metric to go by.
I don't find myself dying too fast, not usually, especially if there's a DC (which goes to your point about healing). All I'm saying is that if there's a downward adjustment to healing, there needs to be a simultaneous adjustment to damage too. Maybe not 1 for 1, but both need to be considered because it's the massive uptick in damage that made the massive uptick in healing sources necessary in the first place.
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I don't think that toning down crit is a bad thing in PVP, but it shouldn't be made useless, either. I know some who can give mathematical examples of when crit IS useful in PVP, but they seem to be reaching.
How ticked off would your party be if you were able to come in, get to the boss and say "gg boss" and get 3K ad then stand off to the side till your team left the dungeon? Well that's what it's like when you get people who literally tell you they're only coming in to PVP to say "gg" and hope to cap for 600 points. It's a waste of time for every other of the 9 players hoping to play an actual match.
This is why I say you should only get the AD for successful completion (i.e. winning). Then noone could "throw" matches for a few AD.
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Thanks for your reply.