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Suggestions about guardian fighter.
dolrey
Member Posts: 741 Arc User
Hello 
Maybe some of you had already read my previous threads about guardian fighters. Here are also some new ideas. I hope that this will help in new class balancing process. So, let's start
First of all I would like to briefly describe some problems that guardian fighter has in my opinion:
1) As most part of players knew in PvP guardian fighter in some builds can defeat his foe immediately using just one or two skills. It is nice that some guardian fighters able to deal damage if they like doing that but not so much damage.
2) Also I would like to draw your attention to the fact that stamina regeneration skills aren't usefull now. Because previously when shield stamina was like additional "health bar" stamina regeneration skills were like additional healing but now these skills are often useless.
3) After that I would like to write that thank to increased blocking time guardian fighter became able to reflect much more damage using passive skill [Guarded assault]. According to this another daily skill [Fighter's recovery] in PvE can restore in much times more health than incoming damage. It makes guardian fighter's healing unlimited in PvE and makes worse some mechanics of monsters and bosses.
4) This 4th problem partly stems from the previous problem. The most part of class self healing (not that given by potions and artifacts) depends of guardian fighter's damage. Because of this in PvP tanky guardian fighters have no skills to effectively restore health because of they deal low damage and can't use [Fighter's recovery].
5) As you know resistance to control effects is very important part of tanking. Because tank can defend his team and himself effectively just if he isn't under control effects. And guardian fighter is very weak against some control skills because he can't clean control effects from himself and often he can't do enything at all against control classes.
After describing the problems, I would like to go to their solution.
1) The first problem mostly arises because of guardian fighter's skill [Into the fray]. In some situations effectiveness of this skill greatly increases and together with some other bonuses to damage and artifacts [Into the fray] provides unthinkable tons of damage. Because of this some teams of players can defeat epic bosses for just 15-20 seconds (very good example is Orcus in Castle Never). Also imbalanced [into the fray] in PvP helps to some builds of guardian fighter to defeat target using just one-two hits.
To solve this problem I would like to ask developers to nerf guardian fighter's skill [Into the fray] decrease damage bonus of this skill and make guardian fighter unable to activate [Into the fray] on himself.
3+4) I would like to continue from 3rd and 4th problems and make them into one point because they are interrelated and to better explain solution of other problems. To solve these problems with guardian fighter's self healing I would like to ask developers to change effect of [Fighter's recovery] to the folowing:
"You receive healing per second and restore N% (I think that about 10% per skill rank will be nice) of your max HP over the duration of this effect (for about 10 seconds). You also receive X% of your max HP per second of additional self healing for the duration of [Fighter's recovery] per each foe in Y radius. This effect stacks up Z times. "
This will make healing of this skill limited and this change will make this skill useful in PvP and for tanky guardian fighters.
2) Then I would like to continue with second problem and link it with 3+4 problems. As we know class mechanics of guardian fighter are much weaker for tanking than paladin's mechanics. And in previous point I proposed limitation of GF's self healing. The logical question: why? Because I think that there is way how improve guardian fighter's tanking that will include improving of stamina regeneration's importance and healing importance.
I would like to ask developers to add new class mechanic to guardian fighter. Let's call this mechanic "overhealing". This ability will make GF able to gain additional absorbing damage shield which will have the following mechanics:
-The max power of this shield will be equal to 30-40% of guardian fighter's max health (15-20% in PvP mods).
-Incoming healing will additionaly charge the shield amounting 20% of incoming healing.
-Stamina regeneration skills will also charge the shield. Amount of charging by stamina regeneration will depend of that how fast guardian fighter restore his stamina at the moment.
-Shield doesn't disappear after quit of combat.
Also I would like to add that the shield will be consumed by incoming damage after all guardian fighter's resistance and after blocking.
5) As a decision of 5th problem i would like to ask developers to add to guardian fighter's skill [Iron warrior] the following effect:
"Every 60 seconds you gain one stack of "Iron will". Using skill [Iron warrior] while you under CC effects consumes one this stack and clean CC effects from you and gives CC immunity for 1-2 seconds. You can have maximum 2 stacks in one time."
I think this effect will help for guardian fighter to better cope against some effects that provide control all the time. And very important is that [Iron warrior] is absolutely defencive skill and according to short duration of control resistance effect it will be impossible to use "iron will" for attack.
Thank you for your attention and sorry for my english I will be glad to know what you think about these suggestions and what you would like to add to make gameplay for guardian fighter more interesting
***
Checkmate. Addition about guardian fighter's imbalanced extremely high damage in PvP. I think now there is no proofs about why [Into the fray] does NOT need a nerf. Because need in this nerf is evident.
Maybe some of you had already read my previous threads about guardian fighters. Here are also some new ideas. I hope that this will help in new class balancing process. So, let's start First of all I would like to briefly describe some problems that guardian fighter has in my opinion:
1) As most part of players knew in PvP guardian fighter in some builds can defeat his foe immediately using just one or two skills. It is nice that some guardian fighters able to deal damage if they like doing that but not so much damage.
2) Also I would like to draw your attention to the fact that stamina regeneration skills aren't usefull now. Because previously when shield stamina was like additional "health bar" stamina regeneration skills were like additional healing but now these skills are often useless.
3) After that I would like to write that thank to increased blocking time guardian fighter became able to reflect much more damage using passive skill [Guarded assault]. According to this another daily skill [Fighter's recovery] in PvE can restore in much times more health than incoming damage. It makes guardian fighter's healing unlimited in PvE and makes worse some mechanics of monsters and bosses.
4) This 4th problem partly stems from the previous problem. The most part of class self healing (not that given by potions and artifacts) depends of guardian fighter's damage. Because of this in PvP tanky guardian fighters have no skills to effectively restore health because of they deal low damage and can't use [Fighter's recovery].
5) As you know resistance to control effects is very important part of tanking. Because tank can defend his team and himself effectively just if he isn't under control effects. And guardian fighter is very weak against some control skills because he can't clean control effects from himself and often he can't do enything at all against control classes.
After describing the problems, I would like to go to their solution.
1) The first problem mostly arises because of guardian fighter's skill [Into the fray]. In some situations effectiveness of this skill greatly increases and together with some other bonuses to damage and artifacts [Into the fray] provides unthinkable tons of damage. Because of this some teams of players can defeat epic bosses for just 15-20 seconds (very good example is Orcus in Castle Never). Also imbalanced [into the fray] in PvP helps to some builds of guardian fighter to defeat target using just one-two hits.
To solve this problem I would like to ask developers to nerf guardian fighter's skill [Into the fray] decrease damage bonus of this skill and make guardian fighter unable to activate [Into the fray] on himself.
3+4) I would like to continue from 3rd and 4th problems and make them into one point because they are interrelated and to better explain solution of other problems. To solve these problems with guardian fighter's self healing I would like to ask developers to change effect of [Fighter's recovery] to the folowing:
"You receive healing per second and restore N% (I think that about 10% per skill rank will be nice) of your max HP over the duration of this effect (for about 10 seconds). You also receive X% of your max HP per second of additional self healing for the duration of [Fighter's recovery] per each foe in Y radius. This effect stacks up Z times. "
This will make healing of this skill limited and this change will make this skill useful in PvP and for tanky guardian fighters.
2) Then I would like to continue with second problem and link it with 3+4 problems. As we know class mechanics of guardian fighter are much weaker for tanking than paladin's mechanics. And in previous point I proposed limitation of GF's self healing. The logical question: why? Because I think that there is way how improve guardian fighter's tanking that will include improving of stamina regeneration's importance and healing importance.
I would like to ask developers to add new class mechanic to guardian fighter. Let's call this mechanic "overhealing". This ability will make GF able to gain additional absorbing damage shield which will have the following mechanics:
-The max power of this shield will be equal to 30-40% of guardian fighter's max health (15-20% in PvP mods).
-Incoming healing will additionaly charge the shield amounting 20% of incoming healing.
-Stamina regeneration skills will also charge the shield. Amount of charging by stamina regeneration will depend of that how fast guardian fighter restore his stamina at the moment.
-Shield doesn't disappear after quit of combat.
Also I would like to add that the shield will be consumed by incoming damage after all guardian fighter's resistance and after blocking.
5) As a decision of 5th problem i would like to ask developers to add to guardian fighter's skill [Iron warrior] the following effect:
"Every 60 seconds you gain one stack of "Iron will". Using skill [Iron warrior] while you under CC effects consumes one this stack and clean CC effects from you and gives CC immunity for 1-2 seconds. You can have maximum 2 stacks in one time."
I think this effect will help for guardian fighter to better cope against some effects that provide control all the time. And very important is that [Iron warrior] is absolutely defencive skill and according to short duration of control resistance effect it will be impossible to use "iron will" for attack.
Thank you for your attention and sorry for my english
I will be glad to know what you think about these suggestions and what you would like to add to make gameplay for guardian fighter more interesting ***
Checkmate. Addition about guardian fighter's imbalanced extremely high damage in PvP. I think now there is no proofs about why [Into the fray] does NOT need a nerf. Because need in this nerf is evident.
Post edited by dolrey on
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Comments
If this is serious, I disagree with most of your post - another post seemingly related to PvP issues which will then adversely affect PvE.
If these kinds of changes are implemented it will completely change most of the mechanics of how a guardian fighter works, this is ridiculous. Balancing is supposed to be tweaking, not completely reworking the mechanics of a class and nerfing one of the paragon paths. They might as well just create a new class type and delete half of our GF's, don't even bother with a free respec unless it also involves being able to choose another class type.
Regarding Into the Fray, the GF most useful encounter when completing dailies and solo play, and you would make it non effective on himself ? If you mean for this to be PvP specific, then say that. The buffs that are resulting in "epic bosses" being defeated aren't just coming from ItF. And you know what, when the DPS in the party is cr@p, ItF doesn't magically make it awesome. Sure cap its effectiveness, but be reasonable about it, and if buffing needs to be nerfed, share it around.
Tell me how an IV GF has any hope of tanking orcus, if they make those changes to Fighter's recovery that you have suggested? That would be a good way to break the IV side of the class. 40% over 10 seconds when he is hitting for over 80% at a time every second or so, have you really thought these suggestions through?
Making Iron Warrior more useful, isn't a bad idea but its still not going to get slotted is it unless we are wanting to be nothing more than a turtle. We will still end up running KV and ItF and if you add IW then there is no offensive encounter at all.
If these changes were implemented, it would make one of the most boring classes to play solo, even more boring. It would nerf into oblivion the couple of decent skills the class has. It would make one of the paragon paths completely reliant on the DC (and the DC would need to be bloody good). It would drastically change the mechanics of how the class tanks and works.
I'm not sure what other people will think, but these suggestions get the "thumbs down" from me, or say a score of 1 out of 10. Sorry.
Any class can already have all HoT, which comes from insignia (procs on deflect/on critical/on 50% hp drop). The suggestion is making shield based on HP (for pvp only) is huge overhaul and it won't be easily applicable (if at all) to pve.
Another suggestion resembles stamina for heal trade. Developers just grounded one case of such healing (AP haste). It is proved to be abused.
— (The unwritten rule)
to summarise, I still disagree, how about making some suggestions that don't gimp all the tank spec'd GF's that still need to get their boons
If you need a challenge, how about removing your enchants, don't ask for stuff that handicaps all the low IL GF's out there. Or how about some suggestions that just reduce the effectiveness at the top end of the scale.
and if the problem is the DPS of the conqueror tree, how about making suggestions that are restricted to addressing that problem, don't hit the other trees with a sledgehammer when it isn't needed.
This would be a fix and general adjustment, hitting all classes similar. After that is done, we can talk about class rework.
Furthermore, what works for one IL does not work for another IL. Bc 4 k IL GFs are OP in PvP and CN is a walk in the park, you cant claim, that the class is OP in general. Try to tank CN with a 2k IL GF, that is another story.
With BIS gear, there are some synergies clearly not intended. Take a BIS TR with snail, fire weapons, 1k+ AP gain and corresponding mount boons. He can spam SEs as other players use encounters.
Pre nerf perma bubble OP etc.
If something is wrong in the game, dont blame one class for everything. I would be ok with some adjustments, but if they rework a class chances are that we will either have an even more OP bug or the class is unplayable.
Keep in mind, that they nearly destroyed one tank class. If they HAMSTER the other one up, everyone needs a blink dog or a yeti companion to tank bosses.
I think ITF should be reworked, especially since it won't matter what path you take, you still have the potential to buff just as much as the others. The only advantage a tactician has is 5% which becomes puny when there are certain external buffs that can stack DR for ITF (which should also be removed IMO, only native DR should count, no external DR).
The blitz is bugged, it procs when not needed. Fix it too. GF is not very fast hitter, but very many sources proc blitz while they should not. No one noticed it for years until now.
Apart of Blitz comment. I disagree with claim that scaling damage for skill is bad thing which should be removed. Making ability generate static damage (~x * 1k) is putting it into same category with "weapon damage" based/fixed damage. When another abilities in party deal hundreds of thousands or millions per hit/tick under buffs, the damage of value x * 1k becomes irrelevant.
LOL set was nerfed for certain reasons, but i believe they are other than "listening to community voice" and you know that the nerf has changed nothing in pve balance. DPS players who did large damage still do it. They don't need GF for that.
it certainly favors DC over D/OP, but is it really bad thing when the knowledge about synergy helps archive better results?
I would like to see ITF as small initial buff (10% with 4 points) and raising with DR (own and external) with diminishing gain formula, having hard cap at 15%. With Tactician feat it would be raised to 20% max.
— (The unwritten rule)
I would be against the 20% cap. that would just completely defeat the purpose of upping the gears of tanks. All GF's would end up being conquerors. What's the use of a 5% DPS increase for a party when 20% of the group is not dealing damage.
Maybe even a hard cap on the max damage a hit can do that is class & build dependent, that way a tank class can't out burst a DPS class. Not sure . . .
Absolutely, the DR that enhances ITF should be limited to 80%. You read about ppl with 150% that is adding to ITF, that doesn't sound WAI to me.
We need is more challenging content. CN is supposed to be doable at 2K IL and many of us are now 3K+, based on this CN should be easy. We need 3K and 4K content. If the answer is to just gimp us when the same old content gets too easy then that takes away from character progression, which imo is an important part of these types of games. Who wants to work hard to build up a toon to just have it gimped . . . that's what happened in mod 6 and many ppl left . . . . half our guild left.
Buffs are probably out of control atm and need to be reduced, but reduced - not removed completely. If the answer to content being too easy is to just remove buffs completely (or almost completely), well I'm not sure that's going sit well with the majority of players.
Anyway, half the problem is boons from SH and mounts etc.
10-15% is not worth a skill slot IMO. You can get 9% with a cheap plague fire.
And you have to remember that ITF is like a OPs bubble, or a DC astral seal. It's like the core-competency other players look for from them. I'm all for capping and nerfing ITF, but a drop of 80/90% effectiveness is too much in my opinion and will really hurt the desirability of matching with a GF for group play. GF were kick-on-sight tanks for a long time till people found out how overpowered ITF had become and they were welcome in the LFG group again for the first time in a long time.
I don't see any purpose that would serve then to make the class utterly useless again, which might be what your true aim is, considering your post history on the matter of GFs lately.
GFS are overpowered on several fronts, but they shouldnt be able to hold aggro and DPS.
If you want to keep GFS dps at the highest level, then it should function exactly like DC now, those DC who want to compete at high end DPS, dont really heal.
GFS conqueror capstone, should make it that aggro skills do not hold.
This would be a acceptable solution to me.
You want to DPS.. go ahead, your now a DPS character, but your not the primary tank.
The issue is those GFS who can out dps most other toons , are also being the primary tank, there is something balanced wrong when that happens.
I would settle for this as a solution.
So please, stop spewing disinformation. Take care!
Also, I play every class, though will admit, I stopped gearing out my TR sometime in mod 2 really, it sits around in dusk armor. By play , I mean Ive run almost all content with every class. I understand somewhat of each at least.
When I usually get behind something like this, its because I see it as a overreaching game issue, I rarely throw my support behind balance questions, but this is one that is bonkers.
Yes, there is only 5-6 gfs who can out dps me, but thats ludicrous to start with. WHY is it even the game at that level.
IF IT IS going to be in the game at that level, WHY are not OPs giving the same amount of ability ?
In addition , there should be a direct correlation of either tanking ability or other penalties.
When gwfs could both dps and tank, it was considered a balance issue, this is no different.
They really screwed the pooch and this is exactly what comes from not vetting things.
BTW.. me and others warned over and over again, that nerfing elol set will show balance issues, clearly this is one of them.
I wasnt opposed to that nerf, but you cant just DO something like that without then following up and fixing the rest of the issues, neither do I think GFS should be sitting around wacking things for dailies for 10X longer then other classes, thats stupid too (something I WAS very adamant about in IWD when it was released, both GF and DCs took 10-15 mins longer then any of my other classes to do that zone)
There has to be a balance between GFs potential and what they should be designed to do.
If all classes can do top end DPS, then they should have trade offs.
edit#
Of course the Conqueror capstone would need to be altered, so that the weapon damage is -50% on both weapons, that way it is 100% when two weapons are equipped. And we obviously would gain stacks from attacking instead of blocking, since the shield is gone.
I believe a GF like this, would be perfectly balanced.
BAM! We just balanced the GF. Why can't the devs do it, though? lol
ITF: I agree w/ that this encounter power is not WAI since the stacking DEF rings appeared ingame. The solution would be easy, hard cap the max Damage Increase at 25/50/75/100% (on top of the actual 25/50/75/100% of GF's DR).
High DPS: on top of the ITF current behavior there are 3 things what you don't see on Paingiver tab:
1. attacks from others during Commander's Strike is counted as GF attack - I have't checked how much it gives to GF damage on Paingiver, seems the buffed part of the attack, can be more
2. Feytouchd enchantment is procing on attacks from others during CS
3. Steel blitz is procing on attacks from others during CS - and also can proc Feytouched
Fix ITF and CS then check the DPS of the GF. I have just went through the paragorn feats.
1. Wrathfull Warrior: 15% DI while GF has temp HP. - How long a GF has temp HP?
2. Crushing Shield: 20% DI for Shield Slam and ToI. - Really a game breaking buff for at-wills?
3. Cruel Cut Style: Cleave deals 15% more damage. - See point 2.
4. Staggering Challange: 20% DI for Griffon's Wrath on target already hit by GW. 10% DI during KC. I have never used GW and will never use KC in dungeons - would be a OHKO even throug block. Is it a real issue in PVP?
5. Tactical Superiority: 15% DI if Combat Superiority was slotted (instead of 10% and dont have to be hit first).
6. Capstone. This is the main buff from the paragorn path. GF must be hitted to gain stacks.
Which of thew aboves you think should lower DR and how much?
You also wrote GF should have just enough damage to taunt. I can tell you GF has the worst taunt, even worse than GWFs. No way I can lock and keep Orcus on me w/o beeing in turtel mode and using Aggrevating Strike all the time once there is a melee DPS.
Anyway, fix ITF and CS, then we will see.
[...]Guardian Fighter has a secondary role of a leader[...]
Besides, we had developers directly stating (on these very forums), that the GF indeed is a, Leader/Controller...
Nice try, though.