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Armor penetration and defense stripping enchantments

deathbeezdeathbeez Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 789 Arc User
I was testing a Perfect Plague Fire enchant and noticed that even 3 stacks (of 15% per) of -45% defense debuff was adding very little total damage.
On test dummies the damage was about a 7% increase. So I thought maybe it was because of arm pen, it wasn't working as designed anymore.

So my question is does arm pen make defense stripping enchantments like Terror, Plague Fire, Dread less useful or even approaching useless?

What is your take on it?

Comments

  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    This is how weapon enchantments work.
  • zibadawazibadawa Member Posts: 1,266 Arc User

    This is how weapon enchantments work.

    That's a very specific build and circumstance, you know, and doesn't actually answer "how it works", just shows end result for a specific build in a specific testing situation.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    zibadawa said:

    This is how weapon enchantments work.

    That's a very specific build and circumstance, you know, and doesn't actually answer "how it works", just shows end result for a specific build in a specific testing situation.
    There is accompanying text. If you try reading it, you might learn how the enchantments work, the pictures are to illustrate some interactions. The underlined bits explain how the enchantments work.
  • deathbeezdeathbeez Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 789 Arc User

    This is how weapon enchantments work.

    Thank you for sharing that.
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    Actually fab, I know you've very kindly answered a similar question for me before ( and as I've said, I've read your guide many many times ).

    I'm still confused about armor penetration. Let me give you an example from another game.

    In league of legends, magic penetration increases damage an opponent takes based off of how much magic defense they have. However, if you have more magic pen than they have defense it begins to exponentially increase the dmg they take.

    Very often I see that around 62% is the most RI you need here. Say an opponent has 40% DR, does your 60% RI increase damage by 60%, or does it just negate the opponents 40% DR? ( meaning on an opponent with less than 60% DR, is the remaining 20% wasted ? )

    I still using my perfect plague fire from a couple weeks ago btw. You mentioned here and in another thread that it increases dmg by 3% per stack. What happens to the 45% reduction from the tooltip ?
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    FYI your graphs are awesome but I have zero hope of working those calculations you provide lol
  • dfncedfnce Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 509 Arc User
    deathbeez said:

    I was testing a Perfect Plague Fire enchant and noticed that even 3 stacks (of 15% per) of -45% defense debuff was adding very little total damage.
    On test dummies the damage was about a 7% increase. So I thought maybe it was because of arm pen, it wasn't working as designed anymore.

    So my question is does arm pen make defense stripping enchantments like Terror, Plague Fire, Dread less useful or even approaching useless?

    What is your take on it?

    PF is not consistent in description. The large two digit number it mentions for 3 stacks work for pvp only just like Terror and Dread. Using PF still boosts party performance but it is not -45%.

    Terror and Dread have two separated values in description, one for pvp and another DR number for monsters, which becomes multiplier in final damage formula. For trans terror the multiplier will be 1.04. Similar value will do PF with all 3 stacks.

    On full critical build (100% crit chance) Vorpal, Dread and pre-nerf Lostmauth there is +0.5 added value to 1.75 multiplier. Lostmauth didn't need Coalescent Wards from ZEN store to upgrade so it was game-breaking issue. I never saw any claims to change Critical Severity stacking despite shares same principle as Lostmauth set effect before nerf (Lostmauth was nothing but another very huge critical severity bonus).



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  • deathbeezdeathbeez Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 789 Arc User
    http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Combat
    They really over-complicated this. No wonder there is so many bugs now.
  • flyingleonflyingleon Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    @terramak, could you adjust the tootip of plague fire like terror? -45% defence on players and -9% damage mitigation on mobs, much work can be saved. I mean it is just a tooltip thing.

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  • dsn1118dsn1118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 682 Arc User
    deathbeez said:


    On test dummies the damage was about a 7% increase. So I thought maybe it was because of arm pen, it wasn't working as designed anymore.

    Test dummies dont have any damage resist,defense etc.They take what you hit them.That 7% increase is probably from your fire damage
  • scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User
    actually, if you go look at fabricant's post you see that the increased damage is noted in the form of effectiveness. with 3 stacks of PPF you get a 9% increased effectiveness. Since the dummies have no DR this effectiveness is very easy to notice and understand
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  • kieranmtornkieranmtorn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 382 Arc User

    Actually fab, I know you've very kindly answered a similar question for me before ( and as I've said, I've read your guide many many times ).



    I'm still confused about armor penetration. Let me give you an example from another game.



    In league of legends, magic penetration increases damage an opponent takes based off of how much magic defense they have. However, if you have more magic pen than they have defense it begins to exponentially increase the dmg they take.



    Very often I see that around 62% is the most RI you need here. Say an opponent has 40% DR, does your 60% RI increase damage by 60%, or does it just negate the opponents 40% DR? ( meaning on an opponent with less than 60% DR, is the remaining 20% wasted ? )



    I still using my perfect plague fire from a couple weeks ago btw. You mentioned here and in another thread that it increases dmg by 3% per stack. What happens to the 45% reduction from the tooltip ?


    Quoting from Kaelac’s guide to damage, tenacity, reisistance and debuffs in Neverwinter:

    Resistance Ignored % (RI) is the most important defensive stat after max HP. Comes from two parts and is summed additively from your ability score bonus and Armor Penetration (ArP). It’s easy to call this ArP, but because it’s not just ArP I shall always refer to it as RI%. It is a key determinant to outgoing damage.

    Some classes have a stat that provides direct RI. Every point above 10 in that stat will grant +1% RI. This stat is DEX for GF, CON for GWF, INT for SW, STR for HR. For these classes, you don’t need to stack as much ArP in building RI.

    [--snip--]

    Generally, until you mitigate all opponent's defense 1% RI is equal to 1% more damage. However if your RI is already greater than their DR then you get nothing, dealing full damage with every hit (exception in PvP because tenacity comes into play).
    While Kaelac's guide dates to Mod4, the essential mechanics remain.
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    I see. Thanks!
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    And bummer. I love the way it works in league, lol
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    I'm still scratching my damn head.

    Ok so what I understand:

    RI caps at the targets defense, no RI beyond their defense adds any benefit. So some classes with the RI ignored from secondary stat need less RI to hit that cap.

    I'm back to the original poster's confusion, I think. If you have RI at max, does plague fire still increase dmg by 9%. And if so, does the drow racial ability, and things like smolder ( swath of destruction ), and ray of Enfeeblement do the same thing ?

    Sorry if you've clearly stated these answers and I'm not getting it. I'm interested in making a drow debuffing MOF CW, which is where this curious it comes from.
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    I'm also kind of thinking that if a single drow could stack a damage multiplier on a target that it might outweigh some of the benefits from my other choices. Since stats are pretty easy to come by
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    deathbeez said:

    http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Combat
    They really over-complicated this. No wonder there is so many bugs now.

    That is way out of date, when level 60 was still the maximum level.

    I'm still scratching my damn head.



    Ok so what I understand:



    RI caps at the targets defense, no RI beyond their defense adds any benefit. So some classes with the RI ignored from secondary stat need less RI to hit that cap.



    I'm back to the original poster's confusion, I think. If you have RI at max, does plague fire still increase dmg by 9%. And if so, does the drow racial ability, and things like smolder ( swath of destruction ), and ray of Enfeeblement do the same thing ?



    Sorry if you've clearly stated these answers and I'm not getting it. I'm interested in making a drow debuffing MOF CW, which is where this curious it comes from.

    @nathan#8975
    Plaguefire always increases your damage by 3% per stack, so even with maxed arp, it will increase your effectiveness by 9%. This is of coarse a very watered down version, as some buffs and debuffs add and others multiply. Kaelac's guide linked further up clarifies the difference between the 2.
  • nathan#8975 nathan Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    I see! Thanks. Ps glad to see you're still lurking around
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