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Short Letter on "Broken" state of PvP

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  • canmanncanmann Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    zeusom said:

    canmann said:


    Again spoken from a person in guild that is using the Shadowclad enchant as we speak....

    Man are you smoking cornhusk? Never used that Shadowcrap enchant.
    Tested for 5min once and how broken it is, never used again.

    Your guild is using it....
  • solbergxsolbergx Member Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Man how about this
    You queue based on your IL and there are different levels of domination and you can only be in one at a time.
    Like e.g
    1.8-2.5 IL normal domination
    2.6-3.5 IL epic domination
    > 3.5 IL legendary domination
    You can only play on one of this settings, meaning if you have 3.8 IL you cannot queue on normal or epic domination. You can only play legendary domination

    I would also add IL level requirements to enchantments
    normal domination--> lesser and normal enchant
    epic domination--> greater, perfect
    legendary domination --> pure, trans

    Please post your thoughts!!
  • gankdalf#8991 gankdalf Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 930 Arc User
    clonkyo1 said:

    solbergx said:

    Man how about this
    You queue based on your IL and there are different levels of domination and you can only be in one at a time.
    Like e.g
    1.8-2.5 IL normal domination
    2.6-3.5 IL epic domination
    > 3.5 IL legendary domination
    You can only play on one of this settings, meaning if you have 3.8 IL you cannot queue on normal or epic domination. You can only play legendary domination

    I would also add IL level requirements to enchantments
    normal domination--> lesser and normal enchant
    epic domination--> greater, perfect
    legendary domination --> pure, trans

    Please post your thoughts!!

    My thoughts are that a lot of players from PvP guilds will remove all their main gear to get the minimun IL and then, when the Q pops up, wear it all at full power to stomp pugs.
    That would be HAMSTER to do. The PvP guilds are screaming for competition (atleast our is), why would we go around a system that would give us good matches?

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,170 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    In addition to paladins, GWFs, TRs, and GFs are in desperate need of nerfs or at least improvements to game mechanics. There should be a 30 second hard cooldown on all classes' 100% dailies. Unstoppable should have a 15 second hard cooldown. Smoke bomb should be mitigatable by control resist, as should all prones. All prones should have the same length of animation. Higher damage encounters and dailies should have slower animations (e.g., the way HRs can't use gushing wound in pvp). Double SE shouldn't exist. The GF one-rotation kill should be subject to dodges and escapes. Frankly DCs are ridiculous in pvp as well, they're just less of a visible problem because there are fewer of them. Fox Shift should dodge control effects as well as damage (as should marauder's escape, which should also break targeting). Stillness of the Forest should have no animation at all and should actually provide stealth. A long list of powers blithely targets right through it at range. Do all this and there's still a long list of balancing issues. Do I expect any of this to happen? No. Low expectations are the only way to avoid frustration if you don't play one of the EZ Mode classes.
    Post edited by feanor70118 on
  • gusmichaelgusmichael Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    Oh look, patch notes are out! Oh look at how they read the hottest post on the PVP forums... and completely ignored it.

    These Pvp posts always seem to tangent into balance issues that are irrelevant to the original poster's point that there are aspects of PVP that are fundamentally broken and they continue to go unaddressed patch after patch after patch. In addition to the originally mentioned 4 gaping fissures I would like to point out that the queueing system is the same broken piece of garbage that it was before (despite a "rework"), they just put a less informative and (in typical form) more broken system in its place. Why there cant be the matchmaking transparency First Person Shooters have provided us since the 90s in this game I have no idea. I don't come on the forums much, but one of my guildies recently reminded me: no one at this company plays the game, so if you want something fixed you have to complain.

    Consider my complaint filed. Squeeky wheel gets the grease. We gotta start posting all over the bug report forums
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    clonkyo1 said:

    Other problem is the fact that a huge player base it's ignored by the game's progression itself thanks to that abomination called "Mod7 - Strongholds". Not just because of drains, which they are only a small part of the problem, but the whole concept itself: This abomination allows to a small group of players to even be more OP than they already are thanks to its boons, its market, its exclusive profession system, etc. Worse yet, this abomination allows 2.8k IL chars have stats which only 4k IL players can dream about (like 12k on ArP or 25k on Power or 150k HP pools, in example) . This must be wiped out from "normal" content, this is, all this stuff is allowed on SH PvE map, PvP Siege and private Queues. This way, normal players will not be affected by this stuff while players who worked hard to obtain it will still enjoy it.

    This! So. Much. These overpowered ridiculous boons make the gap between new players and veterans even greater, if that was even possible. I'd be all for making them exclusively for SH content only, although it's not as if it is needed there or anywhere else in the game either.
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User

    PS; To topic starter. Why would dude made female toon with female name?)))) Question is rhetorical. No answer needed.)

    Does it fracking matter???
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • urlord283urlord283 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,084 Arc User
    So I read this as saying... we need new PVP gear
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Hey hey not all max gear players used resonator exploits.. I spent 3000.00 us dollars to max my toon...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • pherrowpherrow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 414 Arc User
    clonkyo1 said:

    solbergx said:

    Man how about this
    You queue based on your IL and there are different levels of domination and you can only be in one at a time.
    Like e.g
    1.8-2.5 IL normal domination
    2.6-3.5 IL epic domination
    > 3.5 IL legendary domination
    You can only play on one of this settings, meaning if you have 3.8 IL you cannot queue on normal or epic domination. You can only play legendary domination

    I would also add IL level requirements to enchantments
    normal domination--> lesser and normal enchant
    epic domination--> greater, perfect
    legendary domination --> pure, trans

    Please post your thoughts!!

    My thoughts are that a lot of players from PvP guilds will remove all their main gear to get the minimun IL and then, when the Q pops up, wear it all at full power to stomp pugs.
    I havnt pvp'd in a while but I would say that if premades hated getting a match against pugs when I was pvping, why would they suddenly like it now, a few moths of the same HAMSTER later? I don't get why pugs always believe there is some type of conspiracy against them...fighting weak inexperienced folks is boring as fck. You don't build your gear and tweak your builds to test against 2.5k pugs, no fun.

  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,170 Arc User

    15 second cooldown on our class mechanic, now that is funny.

    Thank you. The idea that GWFs would accept any version of pvp in which they have to exercise some amount of skill or timing was obviously meant to be humorous.
  • revovlerjesus1revovlerjesus1 Member Posts: 481 Arc User

    Hey hey not all max gear players used resonator exploits.. I spent 3000.00 us dollars to max my toon...

    Grats!
  • vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    hey, i am happy they said that 2016 will be the year of reworks systems, so if we dont hear about meaningfull pvp changes till the end of the year, we can have certain, that they will never rework pvp and can move to another game without hesitating
  • userutf8userutf8 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 270 Arc User
    To prevent all fuse about "your guild is using it":
    I was using this BROKEN shadowclad enchantment in solo (aka pugging) duo and trio. Why? Here are the reasons:
    1. not many people to play against/with.
    2. insane amount of trolls
    3. hypocricy and stupidity all around.
    4. no real way to counter this thing without using by yourself (in solo at least).
    Here I can expand it for people who like to read:

    1. The majority of people (not all, but majority) who could pvp quit this game or went for a long afk. Reasons are known, not needed to describe it again and again. Not many people to play against and with. New q system made it impossible to do even inhouses.
    2. There's insane amount of trolls among those who stayed. Folks use broken stuff and think that they are good, whereas they aren't. One dude from youtube perfectly represents this type of folks who think that pug-stomping/trolling is way more fun than 30-min long boring pmvspm. When you encounter those trolls in PVP you either ignore them, or gank them or you can troll them by yourself. Not all people who like to troll can have fun, when being trolled. Therefore trolling a troll is a perfect way to make him sad.
    3. I had a feeling that the enchantment would be broken as soon as they announced it. I made a topic to bring people's attention to a potentially gamebreaking thing before it went live http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1213151/your-opinion-on-new-shadowclad-enchantment-for-devs-pre-mod9-popped/p1. The majority of people voted that the enchant was going to be OK or they just didn't care (results are spoiled now, some people voted against that enchant later, when the enchant already went live, it was 15% who really voted against it before it went live), whereas even according to tooltip it was obvious that enchant could be broken in many ways (if we don't discuss the reasons WHY it went live). Massive QQ started right after enchant has popped. Despite of that some people who could play competitive without it decided to get it and use it. Now a question: any reason to give advantage to those people?
    Some people think that ambush and drains are ok, as they are WAI. Well, I had a long conversation with one guy in mod8 trying to convince him that "not WAI" and "broken" are similar things, and using broken things is still as bad as cheating. Did it help? No, words barely help when you are trying to convince somebody stupid/trollish or somebody who doesn't care. Punch in the face helps tho. Was nice to punch some broken stuff lovers on other underdog class (HR) in pvp whereas countering them with broken shadowclad. I hope they enjoyed.
    4. Ambush ring can be countered easily by l2p and ring of vision. Drains can be countered by using wards. However, ring of vision is not excellent against shadowclad (to put it mild). So, fighting against some classes aka GF, GWF, TR using shadowclad whereas playing an HR, CW, SW without shadowclad is... well... hard? Nope, it's EXTREMELY HAMSTER HARD, to put it mildly.

    Here are the reasons why I stopped playing with shadowclad when pugging/duo/trio:
    1. Guild policy (from 31.03.2016, as I recall) which forbids to use Shadowclad Enchantment in Domination and Gauntlgrym PVP.
    Therefore, I traded it to some guy, who might have had some fun with it on April, 1. :-) Good luck to him. It's finally getting nerfed, cuz price of coals went up again, lol.
    What had changed for me personally, when I sold it? Almost nothing.
    ABSOLUTE
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited April 2016

    15 second cooldown on our class mechanic, now that is funny.

    Thank you. The idea that GWFs would accept any version of pvp in which they have to exercise some amount of skill or timing was obviously meant to be humorous.
    Your feedback is just too wrong to take it seriously. No offense, but what you wrote is the proof that players do not care or know anything about class balance. You want to class-wide nerf, heavily, the class mechanic of GWFs, looking at BiS geared destroyers with specific gear and their performance.

    1) You talk about "skill". Let's see what we have. All classes except GWFs have auto-aim. You click, you hit. Skill activates only when you are in rage, aka "the game tells you when to hit, and aims automatically". GWFs, on the other hand, have pretty much all their powers designed to be skillshots. You fire them, and if the enemy is slightly on the side, or slightly out of range, you miss. You must both aim and time your attacks with a GWF, where other classes just time the hit out of dodges.

    2) Yeah, dodges. Let's see this one too. A CW, or TR, or HR, or GF, or DC exc...have shift mechanics that are needed only to defend/ dodge, giving damage and CC IMMUNITY, and have either ranged attacks or auto-gap closing melee attacks. GWF shift, instead, gives 30% PIERCEABLE DR which is partially deleted by insane ArP levels OR bypassed by piercing damage, and CC immunity, but must be used to both close the gap (cause our melee powers are not auto-gap closer powers) and defend.
    In addition to that, many classes are close to "spamming" their dodge thanks to higher stamina regeneration. GWF can go perma-sprint, but must give up one burst encounter to do that.
    Example: on my HR, or TR, or DC, timing my dodges means i make a difference in the fight, making my enemy waste their burst. On my GWF? I always sprint when a GF, or TR, or other class tries to burst me. Makes very little difference.
    Wanna see skills? Give us the tools, instead of a class with insane damage but very low efficiency on encounters and no dodge...

    It's the same as module 4 overnerf. Devs did what bad players asked, and the class was overnerfed. Cause guys like you have no clue about how to balance a class and where the strenght of a class comes from. For example, you want a 15s hard cooldown on the class mechanic. Too bad that determination gain is already super-slow, and only a fully buffed destroyer builds it super-fast. So, where is the issue, in the class mechanic or in damage/ destroyer capstone sinergy? You see why your 15s hard-cooldown on unstoppable is just laughable?
    Also, talking about unstoppable and skills: pre-mod4 nerf, unstoppable was stronger, but destro capstone was weaker. You could easily kill a GWF bursting him in- between unstoppables, kiting him during unstoppable. I did it all the time. But. Skilled players kept unloading their encounters on GWFs during unstoppable, and then coming on forums complaining how they couldn't damage the enemy GWF 5v1. Eventually, the devs nerfed heavily Unstoppable DR and determination gain.
    If you want GWFs to play with skills then you must give reworks and buffs along with your beloved nerfs, my dear dude.

    You want damage nerfs? Ok. It affects our temp HP, lifesteal and overall survivability too. So, if you do that, you must give the class a shift mechanic that actually works and is not pierced. And give more efficient melee powers that are not so easily dodged and kited, with gap closers so that our new dodge can be used to defend only.

    Instead, what you guys want is an easily kitable GWF, with no dodges so you just pew pew, but he must also go down fairly easily and hit yeah, not too hard, while you pew pew with auto-aim powers that hit 99% of the time, and 100% avoid damage with your dodges thanks to our crappy encounters that can be dodged 90% of the times.

    I'd force anyone who propose overnerfs like these, to then play the class they contributed to overnerf, for the entire next module.
    Post edited by pando83 on
  • drkbodhidrkbodhi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
    Fir the most part, I agree with zeusom. I have to interject that the shadowclad is WAI... when you DO NOT purposefully remove deflect stats to get it to proc more. Where it does not work... is when that person can kill you while standing next to them... and they are immune and not the least bit visible. TEST this HAMSTER. I have never gone invisible with my T Shadow because I use it to boost my already high Deflection % and severity.
    The rest is true as the sky is blue.

    If... the shadowclad is fixed so that they are not immune and fully invisible... my game would not change.
    ez0sf4K.png
    Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
    Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
    SYNERGY Alliance
  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,170 Arc User
    pando83 said:

    15 second cooldown on our class mechanic, now that is funny.

    Thank you. The idea that GWFs would accept any version of pvp in which they have to exercise some amount of skill or timing was obviously meant to be humorous.
    Your feedback is just too wrong to take it seriously. [blah blah usual big red button stuff about how gwf is actually so hard to play]

    I'd force anyone who propose overnerfs like these, to then play the class they contributed to overnerf, for the entire next module.
    I'm going to reply to your usual easily provoked and predictable rant, which you have only posted about eighty times before, with a yawn. Allow me to translate and condense the above: "don't you dare screw up the way we are completely broken and overpowered (not that I'll admit that we are at all, oh no) without making us completely broken and overpowered in a different way."
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    pando83 said:

    15 second cooldown on our class mechanic, now that is funny.

    Thank you. The idea that GWFs would accept any version of pvp in which they have to exercise some amount of skill or timing was obviously meant to be humorous.
    Your feedback is just too wrong to take it seriously. [blah blah usual big red button stuff about how gwf is actually so hard to play]

    I'd force anyone who propose overnerfs like these, to then play the class they contributed to overnerf, for the entire next module.
    I'm going to reply to your usual easily provoked and predictable rant, which you have only posted about eighty times before, with a yawn. Allow me to translate and condense the above: "don't you dare screw up the way we are completely broken and overpowered (not that I'll admit that we are at all, oh no) without making us completely broken and overpowered in a different way."
    And do not forget to nerf the Hrs while your at it there are still 3-5 out there ......
  • luks707luks707 Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    solbergx said:

    Man how about this
    You queue based on your IL and there are different levels of domination and you can only be in one at a time.
    Like e.g
    1.8-2.5 IL normal domination
    2.6-3.5 IL epic domination
    > 3.5 IL legendary domination
    You can only play on one of this settings, meaning if you have 3.8 IL you cannot queue on normal or epic domination. You can only play legendary domination

    I would also add IL level requirements to enchantments
    normal domination--> lesser and normal enchant
    epic domination--> greater, perfect
    legendary domination --> pure, trans

    Please post your thoughts!!

    Firstly - Sophi has a point that all of these things are issues. Removing them would improve PVP.

    But I don't believe they would fix it.

    So let's ignore the personal insults and try and actually think about improving PVP - Fixing PVP (making it not broken) has to be about getting more people to PVP first and foremost and making it a more consistently enjoyable experience .
    I believe this should start in low level pvp. Giving enchants a minimum character level to equip (like other items) would be a huge start given as they have a bigger impact. This alone would give people a much better low level PVP experience and keep them interested.
    Then there should be matchmaking based on power level. I proposed something similar in terms of different IL brackets as solbergx (although I felt you just should start by introducing 2, one over 3k and one under) and I must admit it still seems the best way to make a quick change. Personally I don't care about the wait this might create as each game will be more worthwhile.
    That said - I believe total item level should be supplemented by guild and other boons, and (now) mounts to give a fair indicator of a character's power. The matching system should then try and match people on that basis. This would mean if you solo q it is easier to get a match, and the more premade you get the harder it is.
    Ultimately we cannot keep ignoring this problem. I know lots of people who want to PVP, who try it, and then never come back because of the poor quality experience. I tell them - it gets better - but on reflection, I have to realise that the gap is now greater than ever before.

  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,170 Arc User
    clonkyo1 said:


    Sad part on your false statement is that, basically, real GWFs, pando included, aknowledge that our class is overperforming and needs a tone down on our damage IN EXCHANGE for some stacks. Trust me, it's not easy to get 10 "destroyer's purpose" stacks if the enemy is half skilled... (sadly, on PvP, most players are not even "half skilled" at all... :disappointed: )

    When I see GWFs in general acknowledge that perma-unstoppable should be impossible, that they should have to have an even contest with equally geared and skilled players of any class and that button-mashing until you count to 20 is not skill, I may change my opinion.
  • drkbodhidrkbodhi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
    Ok... about 9 months ago I suggested that Cryptic use the PvP campaign completion to create the matchmaking for the Dom matches. That is the only thing that no one can fake, fudge or cheat with. Personally I have no problems playing with the big kids...
    They use the campaigns to exclude certain people from running Biggrin's, Need for Mead and DV... plus many other gated areas.
    ez0sf4K.png
    Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
    Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
    SYNERGY Alliance
  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,170 Arc User

    What does GWF have to do with this thread? Constructive ideas for class balance are fine and dandy. But, absurd ideas like removing our core mechanic for damage resist and damage, and random hate for all GWFs are not constructive at all.

    If unstoppable is the class' core mechanic, then the class' core mechanic is completely broken and overpowered, and thus a serious problem for pvp balance. Therefore the idea, though you disagree with it, is on topic. Removing basically permanent control immunity, near-total damage resistance and a huge damage buff is no more absurd than, say, nerfing HR perma-stun was, or nerfing CW chain control. Paladins got what was coming to them (on preview, anyway). TRs, GFs and GWFs are still broken. It's that simple.

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