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The eLoL set and other issues:
thefabricant
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
There are lots of threads complaining about the elol set, but many of them are lacking in information with regards to the set, or, they don't look at the big picture with regards to how nerfing the elol set effects different classes. So, I wanted to take a much more in depth look into what nerfing the elol set would do, especially if you nerf it in the manner that I see many on the community suggesting (so that the set bonus is a ~2% dps increase) would do. The best way to look at this is to look at pure dps builds, so this is assuming all classes are building purely for dps, so a pure righteous build for dc's, a pure dps build for tanks, a pure dps builds for op's and so on. This is not a realistic scenario, but I do know a few players who build like this so it is possible to look at what the elol set looks like for them in the context of comparing how it differs from class to class.
Firstly, how much does the elol set boost different classes dps by:
CW: 30%+
GWF: 25%+
TR: 17-22%
DC, SW, GF, HR: 5-10%
OP, 0-10%
Assuming you build classes purely for damage and didn't skimp in any way (this includes soul puppet SW etc) (including dc, gf and OP) How do they rank in terms of damage?
1) GWF/SW
2) HR
3) TR/CW/DC/GF
4) OP
What do these classes provide in addition to damage, when specced purely for damage, this is important as it helps to judge how much utility each class provides and why there are discrepancies between them:
SW/GWF/TR: Nothing
HR: Control, small party buffs
CW (bear in mind a pure damage build is thaumaturge, no renegade buffs here): Control.
DC: Massive debuffs (bear your sins, condemned etc), marginal healing and marginal buffs to the party
GF: Some party buffs
OP: Party damage buffs, like courage and aura gifts
I am excluding the providing of CA damage as a benefit in addition, purely because anybody can do that provided they know how to stand around opponents. All of this is assuming you are running the most selfish dps setup as possible, so you comparing the elol set between classes at its absolute worst and you compare class damage at its absolute peak potential in pve. Yes, you do not often see a righteous dps dc who does nothing except dps, but believe me, they exist.
So, how does class damage compare without the elol set, say post a nerf where the set bonus was reduced to only a 2% dps increase for all classes?
1) SW
2) GWF
3) HR
4) DC/GF
5) TR
6) CW
7) OP
So, what does this show you? Well, firstly it tells CW's that they should think carefully about their constant campaign for an elol set nerf, since they benefit the most from it out of every class, they stand the most to lose. Secondly, it tells you which classes really should not be focusing purely on DPS, since they really are not the best class for it. Notice that a DC focusing purely on dps will both do more damage and provide buffs at the same time, then a TR, CW or OP doing the same thing. This is because what causes a DC to deal damage, benefits the party heavily at the same time, similarly the GF uses ITF, which also benefits the party. Classes like SW and GWF don't really provide anything else outside of pure dps when specced for pure dps, so it stands to reason that they also do the most damage.
The sad thing about this though is it shows why the elol set is unlikely to get nerfed, as a lot of players like building for dps and the existence of the elol set pushes classes together, I am sure the devs never intended for it to do this, but whilst is exists, the amount of damage dealt by pure dps specs is closer and less spread out then it would be if the elol set was gone. True, you don't see many pure dps GF's or DC's, in fact I only know 1 of each who are actually good at filling the role of that class played for dps. This is primarily because though the type of player who decides to play those classes specifically is also the type of player who is more team orientated and less dps orientated, which makes support classes the least likely ones to build in that manner.
So, if an elol set nerf occured, would these pure dps players then build their characters in a more party friendly manner? Sadly, probably not. The reason this is the case is because there isn't really any content in the game that forces party play, rather it can all be completed with the mindset of an individual. What would more likely occur is that the players who got the bad end of the stick (GWF, CW, TR) will be either asking for a class dps buff, or for other classes to get a dps nerf. Bearing in mind what these forums are like, its probably more likely to be 1 class asking for another to be nerfed. Due to this, its probably a lot easier for the devs to deal with the complaint with regards to only the elol set, then the myriad of complaints they will face if it ever does get changed, which means that it getting changed is probably something not likely to happen. In addition to all the class balance complaints, you will also see complaints by people feeling hard done by because the elol set they worked hard to acquire suddenly lost its power.
What is really required to force that party friendly build mindset, is challenging pve content, you know, dungeons like epic dread vault in mod 0, where CW's didn't run CoI, Steal Time, Sudden Storm and Icy terrain, but instead ran entangling force, arcane sing and shield (for shield burst!). Would it not be nice for the game to once again enter a meta where the focus isn't on every high end toon to do as much dps as possible, but rather to focus on building a toon to make it viable for the party you are in to be able to complete team content? The reason you see so many rants and complaints about which class does the most damage etc is because other then the tanks and healers, everyone else feels like they have nothing better to do with their character then build up their dps, because you know, when the issue isn't completing a dungeon anymore, then it moves onto less important things like which character can make the biggest noise while completing the content.
Firstly, how much does the elol set boost different classes dps by:
CW: 30%+
GWF: 25%+
TR: 17-22%
DC, SW, GF, HR: 5-10%
OP, 0-10%
Assuming you build classes purely for damage and didn't skimp in any way (this includes soul puppet SW etc) (including dc, gf and OP) How do they rank in terms of damage?
1) GWF/SW
2) HR
3) TR/CW/DC/GF
4) OP
What do these classes provide in addition to damage, when specced purely for damage, this is important as it helps to judge how much utility each class provides and why there are discrepancies between them:
SW/GWF/TR: Nothing
HR: Control, small party buffs
CW (bear in mind a pure damage build is thaumaturge, no renegade buffs here): Control.
DC: Massive debuffs (bear your sins, condemned etc), marginal healing and marginal buffs to the party
GF: Some party buffs
OP: Party damage buffs, like courage and aura gifts
I am excluding the providing of CA damage as a benefit in addition, purely because anybody can do that provided they know how to stand around opponents. All of this is assuming you are running the most selfish dps setup as possible, so you comparing the elol set between classes at its absolute worst and you compare class damage at its absolute peak potential in pve. Yes, you do not often see a righteous dps dc who does nothing except dps, but believe me, they exist.
So, how does class damage compare without the elol set, say post a nerf where the set bonus was reduced to only a 2% dps increase for all classes?
1) SW
2) GWF
3) HR
4) DC/GF
5) TR
6) CW
7) OP
So, what does this show you? Well, firstly it tells CW's that they should think carefully about their constant campaign for an elol set nerf, since they benefit the most from it out of every class, they stand the most to lose. Secondly, it tells you which classes really should not be focusing purely on DPS, since they really are not the best class for it. Notice that a DC focusing purely on dps will both do more damage and provide buffs at the same time, then a TR, CW or OP doing the same thing. This is because what causes a DC to deal damage, benefits the party heavily at the same time, similarly the GF uses ITF, which also benefits the party. Classes like SW and GWF don't really provide anything else outside of pure dps when specced for pure dps, so it stands to reason that they also do the most damage.
The sad thing about this though is it shows why the elol set is unlikely to get nerfed, as a lot of players like building for dps and the existence of the elol set pushes classes together, I am sure the devs never intended for it to do this, but whilst is exists, the amount of damage dealt by pure dps specs is closer and less spread out then it would be if the elol set was gone. True, you don't see many pure dps GF's or DC's, in fact I only know 1 of each who are actually good at filling the role of that class played for dps. This is primarily because though the type of player who decides to play those classes specifically is also the type of player who is more team orientated and less dps orientated, which makes support classes the least likely ones to build in that manner.
So, if an elol set nerf occured, would these pure dps players then build their characters in a more party friendly manner? Sadly, probably not. The reason this is the case is because there isn't really any content in the game that forces party play, rather it can all be completed with the mindset of an individual. What would more likely occur is that the players who got the bad end of the stick (GWF, CW, TR) will be either asking for a class dps buff, or for other classes to get a dps nerf. Bearing in mind what these forums are like, its probably more likely to be 1 class asking for another to be nerfed. Due to this, its probably a lot easier for the devs to deal with the complaint with regards to only the elol set, then the myriad of complaints they will face if it ever does get changed, which means that it getting changed is probably something not likely to happen. In addition to all the class balance complaints, you will also see complaints by people feeling hard done by because the elol set they worked hard to acquire suddenly lost its power.
What is really required to force that party friendly build mindset, is challenging pve content, you know, dungeons like epic dread vault in mod 0, where CW's didn't run CoI, Steal Time, Sudden Storm and Icy terrain, but instead ran entangling force, arcane sing and shield (for shield burst!). Would it not be nice for the game to once again enter a meta where the focus isn't on every high end toon to do as much dps as possible, but rather to focus on building a toon to make it viable for the party you are in to be able to complete team content? The reason you see so many rants and complaints about which class does the most damage etc is because other then the tanks and healers, everyone else feels like they have nothing better to do with their character then build up their dps, because you know, when the issue isn't completing a dungeon anymore, then it moves onto less important things like which character can make the biggest noise while completing the content.
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Yes, we need more content "forcing" group play. Mod 6 should make sure nobody can solo dungeons any more because stuff was too easy. Now we are at that point again. That mentality of making the most dps as a support or semi support class is just sad, which is why I barely play this game anymore...
Also thaumaturge better dps then renegade? I personally haven't seen it happen. And there is no way a CW would be so low on dps post nerf. HR 'might' beat them, but there is absolutely NO way they'd be below and equal gear TR in the current state of the game. At worst, single target would be on par.
Also, I disagree about CW having the most to lose, I haven't run the numbers, but through the sheer self buffing that the GWF is capable of, it seems to me that they would be more likely to lose more. This is why any nerf to lostmauth should only make it so elol damage is unaffected by buffs.
And the demonic HE's actually do benefit a LOT from party mindedness, its just that a few toons ddps things too fast to notice, and the rest just can't seem to figure it out, hence you have ranged toons sitting in the middle of demonic escape trying to dps everything, and wondering why the HE failed, and huge groups of players sitting by the Harper wizard in closure wondering why the encounter isn't finishing faster. That HE at least can be done in around 2 minutes with the party mindedness you mention (i've seen it happen) but simply no one does.
eLoL set shouldn't be nerfed to the ground, ofc, but imo the misc 3-sets do all need to be brought closer together in power regardless.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I'm not sure I agree with @thefabricant about dps building for something other than damage. We are in the party to deal damage - that must be our focus. The tanks and healers should be the ones bringing the buffs and debuffs.
I come from a WoW raiding background, where each and every dps in a 25-man party were there do deal damage. Yes a mage may have been required to freeze a mob and a Hunter trap another mob, but dps provided the damage. Building for anything less would gimp you. The same should apply here in NW.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
count me anti.. nerf .
I have run 4k elol runs, recieved 11 horns. ITS rare, it should be powerful.
how about making some of the OTHER sets EVEN useful!
CWs are already the lowest DPS toon, well below the other primary strikers, since they are secondary STRIKERS, that should be inline with the game.
the design if fine.
This is neverwinter, not another game.
you want people to be real controllers? make content that both A. requires them and B. fix the powers that they NERFED eons ago that made them ACTUAL controllers.
I am 100% opposed to a nerf to this set, there is SO little to farm in game, making it as proposed ironzerg , literally makes the game .. worthless to log into.
you people take the cake. how about calling for items we can ACTUALLY farm IN DUNGEONS (d&d remember) TOGETHER .. AS TEAMS!
CWs dps is right where it should be, what exact game are you guys playing anyways? Even in mod 6.. this call for 25% extra control bonus with vals set + a couple pets.. was ridicolous.. that all but added .25-/75 on your dazes and stuns.. barely worth the loss of dps EVEN back then.
Everyone wants to make the secondary STRIKER class.. into a NON striker..
UNLESS ACTUAL hard content comes out that requires a controller.. stop making the CW into a non striker.. its still a striker , its DPS already took a massive hit and ALREADY every other striker class can beat it , with similar gearing involved.
Cripes please don't take away the DPS from controllers etc. Completing dailies is boring enough already without making it take longer.
As for nerfing the eLOL set, that will just end up in all sets being useless (except lathander maybe). Set bonuses should be something worth aiming for, they should also be relative to how hard it is to get the set. What's the point in having sets and set bonuses if they aren't worthwhile and you only choose the set for the base stat bonuses - boring vanilla please. Maybe instead Valindra's set should be upped to 50% control bonus or something worthwhile so the CW's maybe want to choose it instead.
At the moment if you nerf eLOL set, you make sets irrelevant and take away any reason to spend the time trying to get them.
Not sure I agree with making spell twisting out of reach of Rens and Ops, it doesn't really define Thaums does it? Some extra DPS is very much appreciated when doing solo's.
Icy veins maybe that shouldn't be available to Thaums and Rens but its useless against bosses who are immune, so its not really worthwhile anyway, who specs for trash? Oppressors are a dead path, geez my tank specced GF out DPS'd one of our oppressor CW's once, that's embarrassing. Now if the last "feat" in the oppressor path enabled bosses to be controlled somewhat it would be worthwhile.
Finally - 100% agree with the OPs last paragraph. Remember when we had to coordinate and choose quadrants in VT instead of just burning her down with DPS?
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
1. Bring all the other sets on par. For example, Black Ice set? Remove the flat weapon damage and add the ability to buff it externally (exactly like the eLOL set now) so SW's get a better option and attributes they actually need and use. Make other sets DESIRABLE, that requires a massive rework. Current classes need to suffer a small nerf to lost attributes they could have gotten if they went with any other set simply because they need to be on par with the others, it just doesn't cut it.
2. REMOVE all buffs from the Lostmauth set. Make it flat weapon damage, as in 2.2k being 2.2k and not that -
[23:32] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 771270 (423972) Physical Damage to Katatheo the Proud.
(that's a personal log of mine, it's real and it's happening, as absurd as it is.)
It might make the game more challenging for once, a 20 second end boss might turn into more than a minute (!) and there will be less face-rolling.
Sadly, I don't see any of the above happening, nearly 3 mods and nothing. New sets are in the horizon and sadly, I don't see anyone switching out unless the new ones will be as broken.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
That is the issue.. not everyone is BiS.. some of us NEED this set to last until they release something else worthy of farming.
Removal of this one item.. makes the entire game worthless.
thats how BAD their design right now is. there is no GROUP content to do that is rewarding.. zip.. zero.. nada.
everything else in game of ANY value us bta or btc..
Im opposed to a nerf. until they fix ACTUAL control skills on CW and/or replace that 30% loss with un-nerf to spellstorm and/or give BITE back to the old NERFED encounters of the CW.
that had no reason at all to be nerfed.
Im not DEFENDING the elol set.. IM DEFENDING THE RIGHT TO farm in game.
there is NO other content to do! this is it!
1. I'm missing here something, you didn't show the relative difference of dps over some base line (in percentage or otherwise). Without it, on what you base your shift in order ?
for example (and for example only) if we use TR as base line, and using your order:
1) GWF/SW - 150%
2) HR - 110%
3) TR/CW/DC/GF 0% - Baseline
4) OP - 50%
We can get:
1) SW
2) GWF
3) HR
Or with same order but a bit different :
1) GWF/SW - 150%
2) HR - 130%
3) TR/CW/DC/GF 0% - Baseline
4) OP - 50%
We will get:
1) SW
2) HR
3) GWF
And so on... (numbers probably not accurate, but I hope you understand what I mean)
2. Small note, Usually TRs dps rotation includes Smoke Bomb... it also controls, quite well too.
IM talking about having nothing else to farm..
tell me WHAT else in game can we farm that people would buy? vals set is only good for the very small limited amount of poeple building for control.
Black ice is a 250k blackince bombshell of a shocker to get and then its lame anyways.. and its not farmble anyways.
Heck.. HECK even the crappy tiamat set isnt worth it! (artifact isnt bad actually, but set is beyond worthless to farm and sell)
THAT leaves people farming RP.. omg, do you know how boring that is?
THIS is it.. im not being melodramatic.. this is the only item.. in the entire game you can farm and make some AD off from it. WHILE also grouping and doing something not half dead boring in game!
there is nothing else that give you this return.
The only other way is to get lucky in the lottery system from a lockbox.
I dont mind warranted adjustments, but PLEASE give us options to farm and sell and group content in DUNGEONS!
the problem is how procs are handled by the game.
Procs AND FEATS ( even when stated on encounters usage ) need to occur once per encounter activation.
without fixing this before, we will complain about broken stuffs in another week or two.
just think about the devastation a conduit of ice/sw encounters/an icy terrain can cause.
lets leave the gwf alone for a moment, that suffers of another kind of brokenness due to highly ridicolous bonus damage feats.
i
why the set isnt so actually out of balance for a HR? or half on TR?
because they lack said multi proccing stuffs on multi hits encounters.
The trick is ONCE per application.
Fix lostmauth, its no like spell twisting or abyss of chaos dont work the same way....
(sorry to have named cws specifically but i wanted to name something i know about ...
sws are probably the same but i dont have the appropriate knowledge)
or in the past:
melee HR with HR dots piercing damage feat (now fixed)
TR dailies interaction with knife's edge (now fixed)
and many more
@tvcity the set would be nerfed for everyone, not just @tvcity characters ... come on man, what kind of petition is that?
@silverkelt on a side, fun, note: give gateway dungeons a shot... im doing like 150k ads refined daily from there. Im logging just for keys, some stronghold farm and put stuffs on selling
The other sets are just lackluster and not worth investing into.
When a set of items with a speciffic set of + attributes becomes a no brainer for practically ANY class in a game it's not necessarily too OP and needs a nerf.
It probably means, as many others have mentioned in this forum that, the rest of the sets are HAMSTER compared to it and should be reworked to be up to par with losty set and become viable If not the go-to alternatives.
I burned my owlbear belt into Puissance (thought over it for weeks) after testing the set and found out that even with the loss of +3 Wis, There's little to be missed since the procs fill the gap to all the missing +%DMG from INT and the loss of Power from my stats.
I like to do a lot of solo PvE and the boost was too good to think of the -3 INT. Burned it right in the other belt.
Still, i didn't think "oh man this thing is OP".
What I thought was "oh man, why are the other sets not as good as this one for my class ?"
And in all honesty, making the other sets worth getting will lead people in running other stuff than just eLOL and may even give some alternatives to running the already limited content.
I was looking into the seldarine set last night for one of my alt toons, there are 3 emblems of the seldarine in the AH as we speak and 45 losty horns.
Guess why MC isn't getting that much love ?
Oh well.
*EDIT- I mistakenly wrote wis instead of int for the owlbear stat :P I hope I wasn't thrown into the fire xD (checking)
It's all fixed now
arrghh this game sometimes.
Funny enough, when people cry about TR's doing way too much damage from Shadowy Opportunity in PVP (which worked the exact same way as the eLOL set does, weapon damage buffed by external buffs resulting in every COS hitting 10 - 15's) it gets a giant HAMSTER nerf. Huh, what about Stormspell? Got a similar treatment. But a saaaaacred set EVERYONE is wearing now because they're sheep and feel like they need to compete in the non-existent world of dps race (I like cw's justifying their use of the set to boost DPS the most, since they really don't do much as Thaums as they once were and are no longer competent in that area with or without a set). The only reason the set has yet to get a severe fix is because the game is losing players as it is, hurting RP investments of 90% of the game's population is not a smart move, and since they were too late in figuring out the set was OP, they couldn't take it back at that point and never will.
I'm more than willing to lose said 30% of my DPS for a more even playground, the set is NOT needed whatsoever, if anything it'll drop GWF's down to be more on par (but not entirely) with other primary strikers and make it fair.
So nope, you liking the DPS and soloing a DR lair 20 seconds faster than you would normally is not a valid point.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance