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i wont ever again complain about bugs.

rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
yes, i wont.
after 2 weeks where i spent 4 hours a day to look for a bug in a matlab code, i may finally found it... after 2 weeks, 4x7x2 = 48 hours of debugging, losing sleep thinking to then find the "error". And even now i still dont know why 3 lines of code, the most simple ones you can imagine are doing that.
bugs are strange and when you are payed, 48 working hours for a simple bug arent accepted.
i wont ever again complain

Comments

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,803 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    Finding a bug is always the most time consuming part. Usually, it is a lot easier to fix a bug (after you find out where the bug is).

    There is an old story about an retired engineer helped fixing an equipment of his old company. An equipment of his old company was malfunction and nobody could figure out what the problem was So, they got this retired engineer to come back to help. He fixed it. In his invoice, there were 2 items:

    1. $1 for replacing a s_crew.
    2. $4999 for knowing where to find that s_crew.

    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • kreatyvekreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,539 Community Moderator
    rayrdan said:

    yes, i wont.
    after 2 weeks where i spent 4 hours a day to look for a bug in a matlab code, i may finally found it... after 2 weeks, 4x7x2 = 48 hours of debugging, losing sleep thinking to then find the "error". And even now i still dont know why 3 lines of code, the most simple ones you can imagine are doing that.
    bugs are strange and when you are payed, 48 working hours for a simple bug arent accepted.
    i wont ever again complain

    Now... consider the millions (not even exaggerating a little) of lines of code that make up an MMO.

    And sometimes, fixing one bug, creates 5 new bugs. Some of which may be even worse than the original bug.

    My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox
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  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 932 Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    rayrdan said:

    yes, i wont.
    after 2 weeks where i spent 4 hours a day to look for a bug in a matlab code, i may finally found it... after 2 weeks, 4x7x2 = 48 hours of debugging, losing sleep thinking to then find the "error". And even now i still dont know why 3 lines of code, the most simple ones you can imagine are doing that.
    bugs are strange and when you are payed, 48 working hours for a simple bug arent accepted.
    i wont ever again complain

    Now... consider the millions (not even exaggerating a little) of lines of code that make up an MMO.

    And sometimes, fixing one bug, creates 5 new bugs. Some of which may be even worse than the original bug.

    If they use polymorphism they should be able to 'upgrade' the old dungeons faster than they have and as for debuging writing a few simple tests will automate alot of the error trapping. That is if the code was well written and documented from the start.
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • vjarlvjarl Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 92 Arc User
    There are several factors involved in producing "good" code. The earlier in the process you catch the error the less expensive and time consuming it is to correct the problem. If a bug gets to production (release) it is the most expensive to fix.

    Having said that, it is nigh on impossible to produce code that is bug free. The industry average is roughly 15-50 bugs per 1000 lines of code (KLOC). Some bigger companies, who have oodles of people to throw into code reviews, testing, process development, etc. have managed to get that down to 10-20 bugs per KLOC before final acceptance testing and in some cases as few as 2 bugs per KLOC released. Then there are a few companies that have gone way beyond where the results of an error are life threatening (think Space Shuttle) that have achieved error rates as low as 0 errors in 500 KLOC. Not that there are still no errors mind you just very few.

    The lower rates are achieved by HUGE amounts of testing and retesting and reviewing and re-reviewing and then reviewing again and then testing again. All of that takes enormous amounts of time, resources and money (money as in not for free).

    Bugs are NOT the result of crappy coding in most cases. Bugs are a result of a situation that was not considered when the specification was written. Once code is released into the wild and all kinds of deviants get ahold of it and do things to it that you would never consider a sane person doing, those situations come to light. Of course at that time it is very time, money, resource consuming to fix the issue. All very well if you have nothing else to do with your day but fix those problems, but if you are developing more content, that tends to consumes those very same resources that are needed to fix the errors. Solution: Get more resources! Resources cost money (again money as in not free)!

    Of necessity if you want to have a F2P game you are not getting oodles of money so you have to allocate the resources to where you are going to see the most income from those resources (think basic economics in the world). Do you get more money from fixing a bug that is somewhat a nuisance or do you get more money from new content?

    The argument is "Yeah, but people leave if there is a bug." True, you are correct sir! But, the rebuttal, if 10 people leave because of a bug and 100 people join because of new content, where do I put the resources? As long as the bug does not make the game unplayable, with the above scenario, you put the money in new content.

    Now as far as Neverwinter goes, you have to have a relatively small development group, testing group and review group because it is F2P. There is no room there for huge amounts of testing and reviewing. There answer, preview shard!!!! Have the deviants that are going to be playing it test it! Great, but even if they find every bug out there, you still need resources to fix them and where is the money? Fix a bug because a TR has a drippy nose or release new content?

    Next argument, there is no new content. Once you have a dungeon, every other dungeon is the same thing with different skin and different stats. HE, dungeon run, new monsters, new gear, etc. All the same as the old stuff with new stats and new skins. EVERY game out there is the same way. World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest...every new release is just the old content with new skins and new stats. Once the mechanics of the game are set there is usually little new variety. It is the nature of the beast.

    So why don't they sit down and come up with some innovative new content. Goes back to the money. Are people more willing to sit through new skins and stats or do they want something innovative? Innovative the users scream! Guess what you are now at the beginning of your development cycle again and you have to go through all of that again. Reskinning and restatting take far less time and since you are reusing existing code, fewer bugs as a result.

    Write a few tests to test out the error trapping. Errors are what you expect to happen when you code. See above, most bugs are from unexpected occurrences, not expected ones.

    Multiple all this by millions of lines of code and you can see the issues that a development team are facing.

    Sorry to get so wordy, but there are 1000s of posts spouting off about "Why don't they fix XYZ?" and people need to understand that it takes time and money to fix these things. In a F2P environment, neither of these is in great supply.

    Just my 10 cents worth, flame on!
  • qexoticqexotic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 840 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    Excellent summation of the situation vjarl. If anyone flames you for this, they probably haven't coded anything much more complex than 'Hello World !' :) .....and even that can contain errors/bugs depending on whether you spell 'Hello' with an 'e' or a 'u' >:)
  • cjh1983cjh1983 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 229 Arc User
    The first problem might be when a game has as much code as an operating system (which I somehow doubt).

    The second problem might be when you must search through an operating system's worth of code to find something to be fixed.

    The third problem might be that it takes days to fix three lines of code.


    In any case, this isn't my problem. Assuming this is an any way accurate, they need to be more efficient with their code.
  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    vjarl said:

    There are several factors involved in producing "good" code. The earlier in the process you catch the error the less expensive and time consuming it is to correct the problem. If a bug gets to production (release) it is the most expensive to fix.

    Having said that, it is nigh on impossible to produce code that is bug free. The industry average is roughly 15-50 bugs per 1000 lines of code (KLOC). Some bigger companies, who have oodles of people to throw into code reviews, testing, process development, etc. have managed to get that down to 10-20 bugs per KLOC before final acceptance testing and in some cases as few as 2 bugs per KLOC released. Then there are a few companies that have gone way beyond where the results of an error are life threatening (think Space Shuttle) that have achieved error rates as low as 0 errors in 500 KLOC. Not that there are still no errors mind you just very few.

    The lower rates are achieved by HUGE amounts of testing and retesting and reviewing and re-reviewing and then reviewing again and then testing again. All of that takes enormous amounts of time, resources and money (money as in not for free).

    Bugs are NOT the result of crappy coding in most cases. Bugs are a result of a situation that was not considered when the specification was written. Once code is released into the wild and all kinds of deviants get ahold of it and do things to it that you would never consider a sane person doing, those situations come to light. Of course at that time it is very time, money, resource consuming to fix the issue. All very well if you have nothing else to do with your day but fix those problems, but if you are developing more content, that tends to consumes those very same resources that are needed to fix the errors. Solution: Get more resources! Resources cost money (again money as in not free)!

    Of necessity if you want to have a F2P game you are not getting oodles of money so you have to allocate the resources to where you are going to see the most income from those resources (think basic economics in the world). Do you get more money from fixing a bug that is somewhat a nuisance or do you get more money from new content?

    The argument is "Yeah, but people leave if there is a bug." True, you are correct sir! But, the rebuttal, if 10 people leave because of a bug and 100 people join because of new content, where do I put the resources? As long as the bug does not make the game unplayable, with the above scenario, you put the money in new content.

    Now as far as Neverwinter goes, you have to have a relatively small development group, testing group and review group because it is F2P. There is no room there for huge amounts of testing and reviewing. There answer, preview shard!!!! Have the deviants that are going to be playing it test it! Great, but even if they find every bug out there, you still need resources to fix them and where is the money? Fix a bug because a TR has a drippy nose or release new content?

    Next argument, there is no new content. Once you have a dungeon, every other dungeon is the same thing with different skin and different stats. HE, dungeon run, new monsters, new gear, etc. All the same as the old stuff with new stats and new skins. EVERY game out there is the same way. World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest...every new release is just the old content with new skins and new stats. Once the mechanics of the game are set there is usually little new variety. It is the nature of the beast.

    So why don't they sit down and come up with some innovative new content. Goes back to the money. Are people more willing to sit through new skins and stats or do they want something innovative? Innovative the users scream! Guess what you are now at the beginning of your development cycle again and you have to go through all of that again. Reskinning and restatting take far less time and since you are reusing existing code, fewer bugs as a result.

    Write a few tests to test out the error trapping. Errors are what you expect to happen when you code. See above, most bugs are from unexpected occurrences, not expected ones.

    Multiple all this by millions of lines of code and you can see the issues that a development team are facing.

    Sorry to get so wordy, but there are 1000s of posts spouting off about "Why don't they fix XYZ?" and people need to understand that it takes time and money to fix these things. In a F2P environment, neither of these is in great supply.

    Just my 10 cents worth, flame on!


    I must say in my company our whole development team will loose there job if we let through the amount of errors that this company does. Not to mention the lack of repairing it in time.

    Letting your customers suffer through bugs cost company money. We code for the Government that means financial penalties, so we cannot afford to have our clients have any down time or cannot just say we will remove this feature(dungeons) and add it back at another time. That will cost the company $100 000's. Yes that is the types of fines we get hit with. We had to delay(simular to Strongholds) a project release for 1 week, that cost the company $15 000 per day on late fees.

    So yes money does influence the dicision making process, but the development team that does not properly follow the SDLC will cost the company more money(Hence the mass exodus in this game).


    As for unforseen items coming up. If there is a strong project plan these unforseen items will not be in the project plan and thus should not be implemented.
    qexotic said:

    Excellent summation of the situation vjarl. If anyone flames you for this, they probably haven't coded anything much more complex than 'Hello World !' :) .....and even that can contain errors/bugs depending on whether you spell 'Hello' with an 'e' or a 'u' >:)

    This is not a flame and yes me and my team do alot more than hello world apps. We code and maintain projects written in C,C++, Assembly(very often, mostly when working with farming hardware), C# ,Java (i hate it ... think it is for amateurs) with mainly Ms SQL and Oracle for databases. We are not an inhouse team that are allowed to ignore certain protocols just to get the product to market.


    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • dufistodufisto Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    "The argument is "Yeah, but people leave if there is a bug." True, you are correct sir! But, the rebuttal, if 10 people leave because of a bug and 100 people join because of new content, where do I put the resources? As long as the bug does not make the game unplayable, with the above scenario, you put the money in new content."

    this would be understandable if there were actually new content. and not just a bunch of cutting and pasting.
  • therealprotextherealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    kreatyve said:

    Now... consider the millions (not even exaggerating a little) of lines of code that make up an MMO.
    And sometimes, fixing one bug, creates 5 new bugs. Some of which may be even worse than the original bug.

    That's why other companys that produce software use something called "Software Architecture", "Code Guidelines" and stuff like "Clean Code", "Test Driven Development" and "Design Patterns". Don't get me wrong, creating 5 new bugs while fixing a single one happens sometimes, no matter how proper you work. But if it happens regularly, there is much more wrong with the software than the bugs only...

    Fortunatly, this mod looks like someone did his homework. :-)

  • nimandiirnimandiir Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 90 Arc User
    Bugs are too be expected, it's our job as players to bug report when we find them providing accurate descriptions of what we were doing. Including what we were eating and what music we were listening too, you never know...
  • karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    4x7x2 is 56 not 48
    4x7 = 28x2 = 56 hours

    No suprise you didn't find the bug.
    plat.png
    Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
  • kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    @vjarl

    Great post man, kudos! :)
    va8Ru.gif
  • gphxgphxgphxgphx Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    Oh bull. If a chef makes a mistake in his recipe the food doesn't taste good and customers don't come back. Simple as that. The chef can justify it all he wants in his mind telling himself his food is really good and the customers are stupid but that won't change the fact customers aren't walking through the door. The justification will only serve to stop him from seeing and fixing the problem and getting customers back in the door.

    What vjarl wrote is the rhetoric of failure.
  • blackjackwidowblackjackwidow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 424 Arc User
    @vjarl wrote the truth - it's not rhetoric. The fact that there are people still complaining about "not fixing bugs" confirms that most people don't leave because of bugs. Not because of annoying ones, anyway. Big, game-stopping, I-can't-log-in-to-play bugs; sure. I-can't-progress-and-no-one-has-fixed-this-in-months bugs; sure. If-I-do-XYZ-and-don't-get-the-correct-results bugs; sometimes, but usually they'll complain and go do something else. Not saying it's right, just saying it's generally the way things go.

    The NW game coders - the actual people coding the game - aren't just "crappy coders". They are people trying to keep their jobs by building what they're told to build, using the tools that were already in place and running long before any of them joined the team. Which is why the story told by @plasticbat and the post by @kreatyve are so relevant.

    "That is if the code was well written and documented from the start." Right - error trapping, development plans and "test driven development" are great for a team that has the luxury of documentation, maybe a project manager who knows why certain things were done in the beginning, and client with a clear focus on what the end result will be. I just don't think that's the case here.

    **disclaimer - this does not mean I will fail to complain about any bugs in the future, but only if they affect me. :wink:
  • dragoness10dragoness10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 780 Arc User
    : hugs rayrdan:

    Another problem coders run into is things can work perfectly in a preview or beta test, and then when it goes live there's some little screw up somehow that produces a bug. That's what drove me the most nuts when that happened, and then the complaints came in about how it was "supposed to have been fixed". It was, just the fix didn't carry over for whatever reason in the universe.

    Translating working code between Windows and Linux was worse. That made me cry when it wouldn't work.

    Then there are the bugs that occur that you never would have thought of such as "this door blocks you from running through with the code that only allows you to open it when out of combat, BUT if you stand on this rock facing that column then do a backwards jump you can shave off 5 minutes of this dungeon anyhow".

    There are people out there that enjoy "breaking" everything possible just to see what can be done, or get some sadistic joy out of being able to complain about bugs.

    Keep reporting bugs through appropriate channels, certainly. A small complaint can alert Devs to a real problem. Just always use a please and thank you if you would be so kind?

    Thanks.
    " I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep

    "Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."

    "Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
  • yourenext2dieyourenext2die Member Posts: 614 Arc User
    Funny considering there are thousands of games with no where near as many bugs. Where it takes you that long to find a bug it can take someone else half of the time. Not everyone working on this game is a superstar in their field.
    Super Saiyan God- TR Lvl 70 (PVP)
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  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,064 Arc User
    edited January 2016

    Funny considering there are thousands of games with no where near as many bugs. Where it takes you that long to find a bug it can take someone else half of the time. Not everyone working on this game is a superstar in their field.

    The game bug fixing speed and quality depends on may things.

    1) team size
    2) with how many games team working.(publishing.
    3) QA, testers. After all test servers are area where most bugs should be traced and fixed before they slip to live server.


    Next, all games looks nice when u didn't play them. Give me at least one mmorpg game where forum are no threads about bad class balance, game is too bugged/broken. And also statements like ,, Other games have less buggs and so one..


    As for topic..

    Guys, The team who manage this game are not some kind random guys.
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Knight online did not have bugs.. it had koxpers (hack bots for pvp and powers)

    Was and is a nice game...

    Left because bots took over...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • rapo973rapo973 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 831 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    vjarl said:

    There are several factors involved in producing "good" code. The earlier in the process you catch the error the less expensive and time consuming it is to correct the problem. If a bug gets to production (release) it is the most expensive to fix.
    [...]

    Everything is correct, but the next point is: how do you manage that?
    The answer seems to be: go where the money goes. Is it enough? No it isn't.
    Every new module attracts less players than the previous one: this is clearly reported here (the Steam population can be considered a good sample of the overall universe)
    http://steamcharts.com/app/109600

    If you read the Steam data and you know a bit about system dynamics, then you can see some analogies.
    The system dynamic archetype is called "Attractiveness principle" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractiveness_principle).
    The Reinforcing Loop = "release new contents/modules" -> New players (proportional to + revenues)
    The limiting factors are "bugs/low quality" and "content recycling/deleting/nerf"-> Players quit (proportional to - revenues)

    The red line in Figure 4 shows how it works, but you have to apply heavier weights to see the overall smooth but constant negative trend: every new module attract new players, but the difference between the number of new players and number of quitting players is negative and this negative gap increases at every module release at different pace...at the end you have the steam chart on the long run.
    The next limiting factor will be the incoming OP/DC/lol set nerf...it will be interesting: in my guild 4 (paying) players have already announced that they quit the game the day it goes live (they invested a lot in their builds/toon and the nerf has a negative RoI for them).


    "
    Effective strategies


    Here is a list of possible effective strategies to deal with Attractiveness principle in praxis based on

    Knowing the growth is limited is the first step.
    The insight is complicated by mutual interaction of limits, so analysis of their relation should be a priority. Such an analysis can also reveal possible synergies that can be achieved by allocating resources to carefully chosen limits.
    Consider replacing limited resources by another ones.
    Dominant strategy is to monitor the limits and using tradeoff analysis for deciding which of them it is convenient to reduce or remove to obtain desired results.
    Define the acceptable level of (un)attraction.
    Slowing actions are not usually appearing at the same time so it is important to manage them through the time.
    Try to inhibit the limits before they even start to act like limits.
    As limits start to have impact on various levels of results it is important to keep the right timing – intercept the moment when the limit starts playing its role but not waste the resources to avoid its impact unless it is necessary
    ."

    PS: I see this from the player's perspective: a bug is a synonym of "poor quality" regardless how difficult is to manage it.


    Oltreverso guild leader
    Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
  • mstrssihrmstrssihr Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 545 Arc User
    vjarl said:

    There are several factors involved in producing "good" code. The earlier in the process you catch the error the less expensive and time consuming it is to correct the problem. If a bug gets to production (release) it is the most expensive to fix.

    Having said that, it is nigh on impossible to produce code that is bug free. The industry average is roughly 15-50 bugs per 1000 lines of code (KLOC). Some bigger companies, who have oodles of people to throw into code reviews, testing, process development, etc. have managed to get that down to 10-20 bugs per KLOC before final acceptance testing and in some cases as few as 2 bugs per KLOC released. Then there are a few companies that have gone way beyond where the results of an error are life threatening (think Space Shuttle) that have achieved error rates as low as 0 errors in 500 KLOC. Not that there are still no errors mind you just very few.

    The lower rates are achieved by HUGE amounts of testing and retesting and reviewing and re-reviewing and then reviewing again and then testing again. All of that takes enormous amounts of time, resources and money (money as in not for free).

    Bugs are NOT the result of crappy coding in most cases. Bugs are a result of a situation that was not considered when the specification was written. Once code is released into the wild and all kinds of deviants get ahold of it and do things to it that you would never consider a sane person doing, those situations come to light. Of course at that time it is very time, money, resource consuming to fix the issue. All very well if you have nothing else to do with your day but fix those problems, but if you are developing more content, that tends to consumes those very same resources that are needed to fix the errors. Solution: Get more resources! Resources cost money (again money as in not free)!

    Of necessity if you want to have a F2P game you are not getting oodles of money so you have to allocate the resources to where you are going to see the most income from those resources (think basic economics in the world). Do you get more money from fixing a bug that is somewhat a nuisance or do you get more money from new content?

    The argument is "Yeah, but people leave if there is a bug." True, you are correct sir! But, the rebuttal, if 10 people leave because of a bug and 100 people join because of new content, where do I put the resources? As long as the bug does not make the game unplayable, with the above scenario, you put the money in new content.

    Now as far as Neverwinter goes, you have to have a relatively small development group, testing group and review group because it is F2P. There is no room there for huge amounts of testing and reviewing. There answer, preview shard!!!! Have the deviants that are going to be playing it test it! Great, but even if they find every bug out there, you still need resources to fix them and where is the money? Fix a bug because a TR has a drippy nose or release new content?

    Next argument, there is no new content. Once you have a dungeon, every other dungeon is the same thing with different skin and different stats. HE, dungeon run, new monsters, new gear, etc. All the same as the old stuff with new stats and new skins. EVERY game out there is the same way. World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest...every new release is just the old content with new skins and new stats. Once the mechanics of the game are set there is usually little new variety. It is the nature of the beast.

    So why don't they sit down and come up with some innovative new content. Goes back to the money. Are people more willing to sit through new skins and stats or do they want something innovative? Innovative the users scream! Guess what you are now at the beginning of your development cycle again and you have to go through all of that again. Reskinning and restatting take far less time and since you are reusing existing code, fewer bugs as a result.

    Write a few tests to test out the error trapping. Errors are what you expect to happen when you code. See above, most bugs are from unexpected occurrences, not expected ones.

    Multiple all this by millions of lines of code and you can see the issues that a development team are facing.

    Sorry to get so wordy, but there are 1000s of posts spouting off about "Why don't they fix XYZ?" and people need to understand that it takes time and money to fix these things. In a F2P environment, neither of these is in great supply.

    Just my 10 cents worth, flame on!

    Wowza- Thanks for that! =)
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