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Scourge Warlock or Control Wizard

radubadu#0820 radubadu Member Posts: 15 Arc User
Played SW up to 29, love it. Then I run through the lowest level dungeon (I forget what it's called) this level 70 in all purples destroys the place. Is that the class is better for damage or the fact that his gear and level were far passed the content?

Also, I've read conflicting opinions... ultimately the one I want is the one that most closely resembles a black mage from final fantasy or mage from WoW if that helps :)

Comments

  • ahrukinahrukin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 31 Arc User
    a lvl 70 healer could out dps any class at level 29. dont compare yourself to lvl 70 tunes, there is a large gap in everything from dps to HP even from level 69 to 70
  • radubadu#0820 radubadu Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    Is it not scaled down for lower level instances?
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    SW is nice at the start, soon, you hit level 70, you see that nice damage fall down the toilet when you're alone doing dailies. On the other hand, CW starts out weak, but blossoms into a monster. CW does solo and dungeons with ease.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User

    Played SW up to 29, love it. Then I run through the lowest level dungeon (I forget what it's called) this level 70 in all purples destroys the place. Is that the class is better for damage or the fact that his gear and level were far passed the content?

    Also, I've read conflicting opinions... ultimately the one I want is the one that most closely resembles a black mage from final fantasy or mage from WoW if that helps :)

    A SW has more unconventional attacks/powers, and many of them look really cool. On top of that, they can summon a soul puppet, and one paragon path even allows said pet to become permanent, and even buff the caster by its mere presence. That being said, they are sorely in need of some buffs and come up short in the survival department. Don;t get me wrong, they can be very fun to play, and on a team with good support, can do great damage.

    If you want a character that will be more desirable on teams, and which can bring together great damage and controls, then go with the CW. I prefer the ice/lightning path, but the master of flame one is also quite good.
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  • radubadu#0820 radubadu Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    Awesome... reroll it is!!!! Thanks guys!
  • tomiotartomiotar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 227 Arc User
    Why is the people lying so much telling that a SW can even start to compare to a CW. There is not a single thing that a SW can do that a CW similar builded cant do it like 10x better.
  • dufistodufisto Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    tomiotar said:

    Why is the people lying so much telling that a SW can even start to compare to a CW. There is not a single thing that a SW can do that a CW similar builded cant do it like 10x better.

    templocks can heal ( need 20+% lifesteal tho). there i named 1 thing. what do i win.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 990 Arc User

    Is it not scaled down for lower level instances?

    Yes, there is scaling, but...

    When you scale down, the downscale is only partial so you will usually be very powerful for the level.
    When you scale up, the upscale is only partial so you are very weak for the level.

    Might have something to do with gearlevels and so too. No matter what the technical explanation is, the effect is very obvious.
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    dufisto said:

    tomiotar said:

    Why is the people lying so much telling that a SW can even start to compare to a CW. There is not a single thing that a SW can do that a CW similar builded cant do it like 10x better.

    templocks can heal ( need 20+% lifesteal tho). there i named 1 thing. what do i win.
    lol at what cost? Doing pitiful damage? That's a nice tradeoff. I'd take a 2nd renegade CW over a templock any day. The capstone probably does a better job healing anyway.
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    tomiotar said:

    Why is the people lying so much telling that a SW can even start to compare to a CW. There is not a single thing that a SW can do that a CW similar builded cant do it like 10x better.

    1. The SW can pull a gran turismo from one side of the map to the other in about five seconds tops. No CW can outrun a panicked SW.
    2. The SW can also kill his own team members just by attacking a player on the opposing team (Avalanche, ring any bells?)
    3. The SW has a better killsteal move (Killing Flames).

    /pun intended
  • romotheoneromotheone Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 729 Arc User
    tomiotar said:

    Why is the people lying so much telling that a SW can even start to compare to a CW. There is not a single thing that a SW can do that a CW similar builded cant do it like 10x better.

    SW deals 3 times as much damage and can solo a WoD or Stronghold dragon.
  • commanderdata002commanderdata002 Member Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    Mages from the Wow,L2 etc are high dmg Nuke Wizards! Can't be compared what's happening here.

    This CW's dmg is laughable compared to them! Constantly nerfed since mod3 to a point where even righteous DCs can outdps them!

    This game needs a real nuker Sorcerer bad!

    We are at the point when yesterday my 3k CW friend was kicked from T2 where he dared use Oppressive force and bothered the "almighty" GWF...
    Post edited by commanderdata002 on
    stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    In terms of thematics, the SW is the dark mage you want. In terms of how the class plays though, the CW I would say feels a whole lot smoother for the purposes of PVE. The animations are smoother, the movement less clunky and it leads to a better experience over all when playing. In terms of performance, there are 1 or 2 SW builds (damnation and some BiS fury builds) which do really high damage (much higher then CW), 1 of which is questionably unbalanced and might see itself nerfed whilst the rest of the class under performs horribly. So if you don't want to invest in a class that will potentially see a lot of changes in the future, I recommend the CW because it has a stable, non nerfed/changed/altered future ahead of it.

    In terms of how the classes play otherwise in pve, the CW does ok damage, not amazing like gwf (or those mentioned builds for SW) but not horrible either, atm the class quite honestly feels balanced. Depending on the CW build though, you also come with decent party wide buffs if you go renegade. The class has far superior control when compared to the SW though and whilst both the SW shift mechanic and the CW shift mechanic grant CC immunity when used properly, the CW shift mechanic also grants damage immunity for a decent period of time.

    Over all, I feel the CW is in a stronger position atm, but its like comparing apples and banana's. They both meant to do different things and so comparing them will always paint an incomplete picture. You cannot compare both classes adequately till around about level 70, so my advice is to pick one of them, get it to 70 and then try out the other one afterwards. You really can't judge the CW until like level 50 or so because the majority of its strong powers come later on, with really weak ones in the early game.

    If it helps you, at the end of the day the SW is supposed to be either a high damage dealing character or some dps/healer hybrid. The dps/heal hybrid version is really bad, but the alternative is ok although over all the class will likely get changed in future. The CW is meant to be exactly that, a control wizard. Whether you define control as killing things quickly enough so that they don't attack anyone else or CCing the enemy for long periods of time, at the end of the day, what a CW does in pve is it changes the tempo of combat.
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    CW is a jack of all trades and a master of utility.
    CW can control/dps/heal the party (renegade)/ buff damage (MoF CW with swath of destruction)/ and even tank a little (CW shield) ... all at the same time.
    CW can choose to focus on control or on dps. Can choose to focus on personal dps or party dps.
    There are few situations in which a CW is a bad choice, such as, the CW is specced for control and control is not needed, or the CW is specced for dps but something else is preferred. Very often, CW is a good choice in the party.

    SW soul puppet can do huge damage .... but you can't directly control what it attacks.
    As for me, I don't enjoy playing a class in which I rely on an AI companion to kill monsters.

    In regards to non-renegade CW's, many times, while not playing a CW, I would love to kick them!
    Dungeons runs can be smoother with a renegade CW who can heal/buff the party.
    Sometimes, even the healer needs a heal.

    Oppressive force can be annoying when used in middle of mob which scatters the mob.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,560 Arc User
    edited October 2015

    Played SW up to 29, love it. Then I run through the lowest level dungeon (I forget what it's called) this level 70 in all purples destroys the place. Is that the class is better for damage or the fact that his gear and level were far passed the content?

    Also, I've read conflicting opinions... ultimately the one I want is the one that most closely resembles a black mage from final fantasy or mage from WoW if that helps :)

    Don't know the mages you are talking about, but talking about this game you have:

    SW is more similar, probably, to a black sorcerer. I play a soulbinder fury build and it's quite fun, and the class is overall a primary DPS (or at least supposed to).

    CWs boost a mix of primary CC and secondary DPS. They are very useful to CC groups of mobs in dungeons and deal good damage to add up to the primary DPS classes.

    Both are ranged but one is primary DPS and based on necrotic damage and, right now, a soul puppet that hits like The Incredible Hulk on steroids.
    The other (CW) allows you to AoE control groups of mobs and help with DPS.

    For solo play SW has a harder time surviving, while CW has an easier time thanks to the AoE CC and the ability to put shield on Tab, which makes them tankier/ more survivable.
    SW, to have an easier time in solo content must, in my experience, go Soulbinder Fury and use a mix of borrowed time passive and Warlock Bargain+ good footwork.

    If you want a "darker" class then SW is darker than CW.
    If you look for a specific role then CW--->primary control, best controller in game and secondary DPS, while SW is a full DPS class.

  • rottersrotters Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    if you want easy and probably more flexibility then chose CW. if you want to nuke and do a huge amount of damage then chose SB fury SW.

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  • ogariousogarious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
    ghoulz66 said:

    SW is nice at the start, soon, you hit level 70, you see that nice damage fall down the toilet when you're alone doing dailies. On the other hand, CW starts out weak, but blossoms into a monster. CW does solo and dungeons with ease.

    As one of the few Scourge Warlocks left, let me tell you of our class. We've had a hard road. But the class, while one of the lowest on the opinion pole of experienced Neverwinter players, it is not as horrible as everyone makes it seem. Myself included at times.

    We do have damage problems, but honestly. THey are not as huge as with certin other character classes in this game. With rank 9's and 10's and all legendary gear. I am about on par with level 70 CW's who have rank 5's and green and blue gear.

    I should know, because my level 70 CW has rank 5's and blue gear. And it can perform just as well as my level 70 SW in legendary gear with 9's and 10's. Now that being said.

    When I do guild activities with my guildmates, when I do dungeons, whether Epic or normal. I am always either at the top or #2 in damage and kills.

    In PvP, if I get a decent group around me and the match isnt stacked against us. I usually rate in the top 10% or so as well.


    Now that being said, I think.....At least right now.....You will enjoy playing a Control Wizard much more then a Scourge Warlock.

    I love my class, When the SW came out I stopped putting all my effort into my CW main to make the SW. But honestly, right now....The CW is the easier and more enjoyable class to play.

    I still love my SW though, and while I have often found myself so frustrated with Neverwinter that I have to take breaks away from the game. When I come back, the SW is what I come back to.

  • suicidalgodotsuicidalgodot Member Posts: 2,465 Arc User
    Another tidbit here:

    SW starts out fairly robust and easy to play, and gradually gets worse and worse, until, eventually, with good gear (3k +) and especially in the party context, they get top notch damage dealers again. Core problem is that they're the squishiest class, IMHO&Xp, hence they have a hell during mid-game (EE, Campaignistan).

    CWs start out weak and squishy, and from Lvl 20 or 30 onwards they start getting better. And better, and better,... ...also they're somewhat less gear-dependent and they're one of the few classes where all three paths are viable with a bit of hybridization, so plenty of room to evolve and experiment without having to reroll, even a mere feat respec can work wonders and give you a completely new gaming experience. And they're way more solo-capable than the SW, currently.

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    I only play warlock DC and GWf
    Warlock is my main and I have most fun playing it

    SB damnation beats fury in most aspects atm
    I did try Temptations mod 4+5,fury mod5+6 and damnation mod 6+7 and there is no Argument at all to recommand fury except you are near BIS equipped and the damage from puppet gets beaten by your fury capstone
    Outside dungeons fury performs a bit better in theory, thats the only pro
    But even doing dragon HE's damnation is able to top most equal geared classes except GWF
    Since warlock powers are worthless in most cases there is no variety to play that class at all...thats the biggest problem
    3-4 encounter and 2-3 class features are worth their powerpoints
    So its a bit monotone
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    most sws will outdamage my cw fairly easy, some on damnation line are good enough to pull mob groups, some are not.

    AT the mid 2ks a cw is fairly effective at mob pulling groups, cc and damage.. but at the current state of the game, usually will not end up with top dps.. unless in a group of no sws or gwfs, sometimes a hr , depending on builds will be.

    a cw control isnt really needed at this state of the game either.. you get enough with regular roation /build , but the amount of sheer dps you will lose by not having lostmouth and one of the dps paths is around 30-40% or more.. even with similar i levels in comparison.

    Might as well kill things quicker, there is no reason to be so strategized, the game is back to around the mod 3-4 level of hardness (maybe not as easy as mod 5.. as any random group could do anything in game) now it sometimes still takes a little bit of planning, but not that much (typically anyways) .
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,222 Arc User

    most sws will outdamage my cw fairly easy, some on damnation line are good enough to pull mob groups, some are not.

    AT the mid 2ks a cw is fairly effective at mob pulling groups, cc and damage.. but at the current state of the game, usually will not end up with top dps.. unless in a group of no sws or gwfs, sometimes a hr , depending on builds will be.

    a cw control isnt really needed at this state of the game either.. you get enough with regular roation /build , but the amount of sheer dps you will lose by not having lostmouth and one of the dps paths is around 30-40% or more.. even with similar i levels in comparison.

    Might as well kill things quicker, there is no reason to be so strategized, the game is back to around the mod 3-4 level of hardness (maybe not as easy as mod 5.. as any random group could do anything in game) now it sometimes still takes a little bit of planning, but not that much (typically anyways) .

    Not back to mod 3/4 level....in mod 3/4, we had more interesting content :p
  • suicidalgodotsuicidalgodot Member Posts: 2,465 Arc User

    [...]
    a cw control isnt really needed at this state of the game either.. you get enough with regular roation /build , but the amount of sheer dps you will lose by not having lostmouth and one of the dps paths is around 30-40% or more.. even with similar i levels in comparison. [...]


    Once the parties are well geared, and also in the presence of them bubblies, a CC build (Oppressor) isn't necessary, but still can be helpful.

    What many people ignore and/or don't know is that the Oppressor can, properly feated, also give a 10% damage buff (Frigid Winds: Damage taken from all sources after Frozen) and a 6 second +5% damage buff to all allies after CC spells (no specifics on which spells qualify, though, and there's better options for that pick...). While this won't promote your CW's DPS, party DPS do benefit from that "Ice is Nice" Opp.

    Furthermore, if you happen to go for MoF, other CWs and Ice damage users (Frost Enchantment, though I never bothered to check that to the ACT) will get Rimefire Smolder from your Smolder. Again, DPS you cause, which don't land on your account.

    Admittedly this is true for many other things in other classes, too, like e.g. Pallies' Aura of Vengeance. But that "30-40%" less is the personal DPS count mainly, and originates to quite some extent from the Crit-focus in DPS builds and the Lostmouse set procs resulting from that. So, for the dungeon run, especially in mid-game, mid-gear the difference is most often is way less than that.

    Once your CW is done with Campaignistan and/or geared out and/or always running in parties, Opp is mostly wasteful, that much is true. But it's also fully viable. And as a feat respec is within the grindable AD scope, Opp for getting upped, Rene when done is a pragmatic approach I used...


    Also, I don't intend to start the CW tree war in this thread...
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,560 Arc User
    I think the better part of current PvE is that you can pick any class following only your personal taste, and have an easy time finding a group to go in any dungeon. Cause, unlike in the past (modules 1-5), now you don't read players looking for specific classes, but ROLES. They look for DPS, healer and tank. Everything goes. Every class is joined.

    Any player old enough in this game to have gone through modules 1-5 can say it was not like this in the past.

    Right now you can be a SW or CW, players will need you and invite you to dungeon runs.
    Players don't even really look so much to paingiver now for a simple reason:
    in modules 1.5 dungeons were trivial, you needed top DPS to have the faster possible run.
    Right now, mobs are not really though compared to the base damage of any DPS class, but hit way, way harder than in the past. So what matters now is just to have the means to survive (DC-OP-GF, healers and tanks) and decent DPS which are not determined by "class" but by iLvL, since a geared CW will still burn mobs fast enough for the average dungeon run, so a party leader will invite a SW, GWF, HR, TR, CW and it will not matter if they are geared enough.

    Current PvE environment is the best we've ever had since ages.

  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    just because there is literally nothing to go farm, so people arent there looking at dps or something else....the goal is doing those 2 dungeons possibly without dying and log off, better if t1.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    rayrdan said:

    just because there is literally nothing to go farm, so people arent there looking at dps or something else....the goal is doing those 2 dungeons possibly without dying and log off, better if t1.

    I multifarm elol for horns, had 16 drop so far :)
  • kreatyvekreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,142 Community Moderator
    Let's keep the flaming (ie. insulting other players) to a minimum, ok? I have enough work to do today.

    Thanks.
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