theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
It'd be a good leg to stand on if you had anything approaching reasonable evidence to back up that these kinds of decisions by top level management is quickly followed by a mass exodus of players and the closing of the game-
-AND that the closing of the game redounds to lower levels of net profits. Because you have to remember, resources freed up from NWO means, hey, time to make another F2P game with a short life cycle. The unfortunate truth is that players are in an uphill battle. It's not enough that they prove player retention, they also have to prove that player retention is preferable to the alternative, and I'm not at all convinced that that's always the case from a business standpoint.
True. But your speaking to the meta-perspective of the MMO gaming industry in general. If we go down that road, we might as well abandon all discussions concerning the future of THIS game.
I think the Devs want Neverwinter to go on as long as possible. The alternative doesn't have as good job stability for them. It's in their best interest to lead the "suits" down paths that keep Neverwinter profitable.
No one on these forums, or any other MMO forums for that matter, has ever had any reasonable "evidence" that proves, good or bad, that any decision will equal a mass exodus, or a mass following. They only thing we have ever seen is hindsight pointing at the results that "seemingly" were caused by x or y decision. To ask for evidence that has never thus existed before today is, well, argumentative for no reason.
True. But your speaking to the meta-perspective of the MMO gaming industry in general. If we go down that road, we might as well abandon all discussions concerning the future of THIS game.
I think the Devs want Neverwinter to go on as long as possible. The alternative doesn't have as good job stability for them. It's in their best interest to lead the "suits" down paths that keep Neverwinter profitable.
No one on these forums, or any other MMO forums for that matter, has ever had any reasonable "evidence" that proves, good or bad, that any decision will equal a mass exodus, or a mass following. They only thing we have ever seen is hindsight pointing at the results that "seemingly" were caused by x or y decision. To ask for evidence that has never thus existed before today is, well, argumentative for no reason.
The thing you're calling "hindsight" is what we call empirical evidence.
You look at similar situations that have ocured, differentiate by various factors (well yes they tore money away from the Free to Players, but they also completely ruined PvP) and then look at the cases that are more similar to our current situation, as opposed to less, and predict outcomes on the basis thereof. People may do this in an ad hoc manner ("You're doing the exact same thing as X, and didn't that turn out horribly for you guys?") but it's still something that needs to be done.
All I'm saying is, we need to consider the motivations of the people making the decisions, and we need to ensure that we are as reasonably convincing as possible. Otherwise, you really are just complaining for the sake of complaining, in which case, who's the one "just being argumentative?"
Predict outcomes? That's exactly what you were previously arguing against by implying there is no use complaining without convincing evidence. It's sad that you choose to call it complaining. Lots of these players have put a lot of thought and effort into making their ideas known on the forums, for the betterment of all, so why should you belittle that and dismiss it as complaining?
We have no idea what the motivations of the PW/Cryptic "suits" are (as you pointed out - keep neverwinter vs start a new game), and therefore cannot consider anything worthwhile in that arena.
To be as "reasonably convincing as possible" would require what sort of evidence? Can you give any sort of example from any other MMO that could be researched and applied to the Neverwinter forums? If you could, I would think you would have provided it by now, rather than just saying "we need to have evidence."
Arguing against valid points, or as you call it, "complaining," and providing no alternative for remedying the woes of Neverwinter players serves no purpose whatsoever. Not to the players, and not to the devs.
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
edited September 2015
"serves no purpose whatsoever" sadly sums up this thread pretty well~
In all seriousness, my point is that we need to convince the suits. I never said that's possible. But unfortunately, shouting into the void on the forums is more likely to breed toxicity than it is to achieve positive change.
After last night, i would like to see a Dev team run Malabog Castle with an max. IL of 1800, for every group member of course, no 3k IL players carring you through it... and again, please do stream this.
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
After last night, i would like to see a Dev team run Malabog Castle with an max. IL of 1800, for every group member of course, no 3k IL players carring you through it... and again, please do stream this.
The fact that you think its hard to run MC with a group of 1.8k players....is a sad, sad state of affairs.
After last night, i would like to see a Dev team run Malabog Castle with an max. IL of 1800, for every group member of course, no 3k IL players carring you through it... and again, please do stream this.
The fact that you think its hard to run MC with a group of 1.8k players....is a sad, sad state of affairs.
Well, then go ahead, and stream a pug MC run with 1,6k players only, and of course no premade setup, or alt. characters run... shouldn't be a problem for you or any Devs then.
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
After last night, i would like to see a Dev team run Malabog Castle with an max. IL of 1800, for every group member of course, no 3k IL players carring you through it... and again, please do stream this.
The fact that you think its hard to run MC with a group of 1.8k players....is a sad, sad state of affairs.
Well, then go ahead, and stream a pug MC run with 1,6k players only, and of course no premade perfect setup or alt. characters run... shouldn't be a problem for you or any Devs then. But i bet, this is just another example of all bark and no bite.
I have done 2k ecc, with a premade group, with 2k ilvl and no pallies. Why don't I pug it? because people who pug and expect to get players who are intellegent and know what they are doing are stupid. Furthermore, the fact that you somehow expect all 5 players who are in a pug team to be 1.6k is sad, you more then likely to have 1 or 2 players higher then that. You said a 1.8k ilvl in your original post, if you pug a group, you not going to get a group with 1.8k ilvl, so the team would have to be premade. Any team that I premake, is going to be able to finish the dungeon. The last time you told me, or someone told me, we were just "blowing hot air" was for 2k team ecc no pallies, well, that happened and there is a video of it. Its not going to happen for MC though because anyone who thinks you can't do MC with a 1.6k group obviously has limited cognitive capabilities, because its a hell of a ways easier then eCC and any of the teams I beat eCC with could easily do MC with 1.6k.
As to the subject of pugs being able to do it, well, if they did the following: 1) Opened their web browser 2) Searched NWO forums 3) Open the forums 4) Look in the class forums section 5) Copy whatever build is most popular for their class for this module and read on how to play it 6) Either join legit/Open lfg 7) Type "LFXM" "dungeon name" "class names" "PM me"
Bam, they got a team that can easily beat said dungeon, because they decided to get better. Until you decide to get better at the game, you don't deserve to beat its dungeons.
So you're saying, play premade or don't play at all. But hey, that's the same thing the Devs were saying to all the players with Stronghold intoducing, play in a guild or don't play at all... and guess what? Many players allready went the, don't play at all way... wondering how that will work out for the rest of the players and the income from this game for PWE at some point.
http://steamcharts.com/app/109600 close to -11%, and just a guess, but by the end of this month or in a few more weeks, the game will have lost all the players they got from Strongholds... and they will probably lose even more until the end of this year, without any real improvements for players.
And yes, this is only counting Steam players, but chances are pretty high, there are no botters in that pool too... say hello to over 2k Ghost Stories instances with "players" in them.
And again, the rules are + PuG + no premade, no picking the right classes/specs + 1.6k IL for all the players, + no alt. characters, only "fresh meat", without equipment injections from others now go ahead, see how many tries you need for going through MC even once... because that is reality, not some premade that can carry you through anything with just sneezing through everything.
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
0
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
The rules can be whatever the devs think are a reasonable way to play the game.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
Well, then go ahead, and stream a pug MC run with 1,6k players only, and of course no premade setup, or alt. characters run... shouldn't be a problem for you or any Devs then.
This is very doable by a team that knows how to play their respective characters. A pug has a very low chance of being a team where each member knows how to play optimally, especially in a game as forgiving as Neverwinter.
My guild streamed an eCC win with 5x iLVL 2000 characters. You can find it on Youtube.
I would like to see them run ECC with a 2200 IL and not have a Paladin bubble running tank, running a bubble with almost a 100% uptime on everyone is not a legit way of doing dungeons either.
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
-Kymos
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I would like to see them run ECC with a 2200 IL and not have a Paladin bubble running tank, running a bubble with almost a 100% uptime on everyone is not a legit way of doing dungeons either.
In my signature, a how to guide for the 2k player, we do it with a 2k (not 2.2k) group with no paladins.
Comments
-AND that the closing of the game redounds to lower levels of net profits. Because you have to remember, resources freed up from NWO means, hey, time to make another F2P game with a short life cycle. The unfortunate truth is that players are in an uphill battle. It's not enough that they prove player retention, they also have to prove that player retention is preferable to the alternative, and I'm not at all convinced that that's always the case from a business standpoint.
I think the Devs want Neverwinter to go on as long as possible. The alternative doesn't have as good job stability for them. It's in their best interest to lead the "suits" down paths that keep Neverwinter profitable.
No one on these forums, or any other MMO forums for that matter, has ever had any reasonable "evidence" that proves, good or bad, that any decision will equal a mass exodus, or a mass following. They only thing we have ever seen is hindsight pointing at the results that "seemingly" were caused by x or y decision. To ask for evidence that has never thus existed before today is, well, argumentative for no reason.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
You look at similar situations that have ocured, differentiate by various factors (well yes they tore money away from the Free to Players, but they also completely ruined PvP) and then look at the cases that are more similar to our current situation, as opposed to less, and predict outcomes on the basis thereof. People may do this in an ad hoc manner ("You're doing the exact same thing as X, and didn't that turn out horribly for you guys?") but it's still something that needs to be done.
All I'm saying is, we need to consider the motivations of the people making the decisions, and we need to ensure that we are as reasonably convincing as possible. Otherwise, you really are just complaining for the sake of complaining, in which case, who's the one "just being argumentative?"
We have no idea what the motivations of the PW/Cryptic "suits" are (as you pointed out - keep neverwinter vs start a new game), and therefore cannot consider anything worthwhile in that arena.
To be as "reasonably convincing as possible" would require what sort of evidence? Can you give any sort of example from any other MMO that could be researched and applied to the Neverwinter forums?
If you could, I would think you would have provided it by now, rather than just saying "we need to have evidence."
Arguing against valid points, or as you call it, "complaining," and providing no alternative for remedying the woes of Neverwinter players serves no purpose whatsoever. Not to the players, and not to the devs.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
In all seriousness, my point is that we need to convince the suits. I never said that's possible. But unfortunately, shouting into the void on the forums is more likely to breed toxicity than it is to achieve positive change.
As to the subject of pugs being able to do it, well, if they did the following:
1) Opened their web browser
2) Searched NWO forums
3) Open the forums
4) Look in the class forums section
5) Copy whatever build is most popular for their class for this module and read on how to play it
6) Either join legit/Open lfg
7) Type "LFXM" "dungeon name" "class names" "PM me"
Bam, they got a team that can easily beat said dungeon, because they decided to get better. Until you decide to get better at the game, you don't deserve to beat its dungeons.
But hey, that's the same thing the Devs were saying to all the players with Stronghold intoducing, play in a guild or don't play at all... and guess what?
Many players allready went the, don't play at all way... wondering how that will work out for the rest of the players and the income from this game for PWE at some point.
http://steamcharts.com/app/109600
close to -11%, and just a guess, but by the end of this month or in a few more weeks, the game will have lost all the players they got from Strongholds... and they will probably lose even more until the end of this year, without any real improvements for players.
And yes, this is only counting Steam players, but chances are pretty high, there are no botters in that pool too... say hello to over 2k Ghost Stories instances with "players" in them.
And again, the rules are
+ PuG
+ no premade, no picking the right classes/specs
+ 1.6k IL for all the players,
+ no alt. characters, only "fresh meat", without equipment injections from others
now go ahead, see how many tries you need for going through MC even once... because that is reality, not some premade that can carry you through anything with just sneezing through everything.
My guild streamed an eCC win with 5x iLVL 2000 characters. You can find it on Youtube.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Just one other thing to add, legit channel you say?
20/441 showing right now, and i hardly see anyone saying anything in it.
-Kymos