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When will GF be viable in dungeons again? Tired of the one-shots.

serpentsminion72serpentsminion72 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
edited July 2015 in The Guard Barracks
Defense and deflect mechanics in dungeons are still SO busted it's disgusting. It's beyond ridiculous that with 13k/8k defense and deflect and 120k HP that I get dropped on my ****ing face EVERY time I try to approach a mob and use an encounter or try to grab aggro. Spider spit glob, wolf minion scratch, bandit dagger, huntsman arrow... NONE OF THESE should be knocking a 'tank' on his <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with one hit.

And it doesn't matter what combination of tactics, approach, powers, timing- NOTHING make s a difference. How are we supposed to function as tanks for a party when our broken stats and shield do nothing to protect us.

Before Mod 6 my GF could tank the hell out of anything and there were never ridiculous amounts of deaths and embarrassment like this. And your new 'Superior' potions are a JOKE. Big joke. 12k HP for a character that has 120k and an 18 second cooldown? Are you kidding?

Running dungeons on that character is NOT 'fun' anymore. It's become a necessary annoyance to suffer through to try to get the ridiculous amounts of seals you make us grind for. And for what, now that I think about it- more armor that will contribute NOTHING at all to my ability to perform as needed in a dungeon? pfft.

I know I've read other posts since the mod came out referring to these issues. They get ignored by the devs and end up buried 15 or 20 pages deep after the only replies are from other players who say that 'it's your playstyle'. No, it isn't. Why can we never get answers on this? I mean- there are ENTIRE CLASSES that can't function in this game because of your overzealous, poorly implemented changes. GF and the SW that you killed off are the Mod 6 stepchildren. Any reply from a designer or developer that says "Sorry, ridiculous one-shot dungeon damage is working exactly as intended and will never be altered", would be STELLAR- because then I can immediately stop WASTING MY TIME and resources on that character knowing that he will always be worthless. Is there such a quote or reply from a dev? If so- can someone point me to it?

If something doesn't change with the ludicrous dungeon damage mechanics by the Underdark Mod, I'll park the GF and strip him and go back to just a CW. They're the only ones who seem to be able to survive the changes every mod.

Why do you not listen to your players? Do developers ever even RUN THEIR OWN CONTENT? Without Admin hacks?

Your game is becoming less fun and my friends list continues to grow darker.


Post edited by zebular on

Comments

  • aimeesellersaimeesellers Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    @serpentsminion72

    I do not disagree that tanking has become much harder than in previous modules... but I am not having the trouble you are in dungeons. I did at first... but I had to totally change how I was tanking to stay alive. Before most 6, I could stand in the middle of any mob, and shrug off any attack that came at me, from any direction. Now.. I have to keep moving, keep my shield between me and the monsters at all times... circling them.

    I also had to change the powers I use. On an epic run, I use no offensive powers. Iron Warrior, Knights Valor, and Enforced Threat are my mainstays... and Fighters Recovery is the only daily I even think of using. As a Tactician, the AP gain I get from my endcap feat allows me to use it every 4 to 5 seconds when tanking a mob of at least 3 or 4. One shot with EF, or even the reflect damage I generate will keep me fully healed in most cases even without a cleric or paladin with me.

    I am better geared than most... but far from BiS... this is what I have on me:

    Aimee_CharSheet_GF_zpseoav7wch.jpg

    My enchants are a mix of Rank 8's and Rank 9's. For PvE I still used a Soulforged... and not even a greater one. My weapon enchant is a Transcendent Feytouched. It... and the Mythic Sigil... are a result of the last 2xRP we had... and have been LONG in the making.

    Dont get me wrong... one mistimed encounter, or a slip of the finger and I am dead. It's not easy. But its not impossible either. I can tank the boss in Shores even without a healer. Same with eLoL... but if I dont keep Fighters recovery going at all times, and keep my stamina up.. I am dead. Using EF, Into the Fray, and Iron Warrior I can tank both of the Scorps at once as long as I keep moving. Stand still... and I am dead.

    Mod 6 was indeed an eye opener... my first run of Kessels ended up with me dead at the first encounter in seconds, along with the whole party.... and every one along the way to the boss. I just had to learn a new way to tank... and keep upgrading my gear. Now Kessels is a cakewalk.

    Dont give up on your GF. Mine is by far my favorite character to play. It is the hardest... but I think it's also the most rewarding.
    A'Mie Stormshield (GF) / A'Mie Stormshard (CW)
    Play Legit or Quit
    PandorasMisfits_Logo_175_zpskpytcqxc.png
    Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,382 Arc User
    I truly feel bad for the GF's out there. I know it's just anecdotal, but my HR seems to have far better survivability with 20k defense than the vast majority of GF's I group with. Of course, I have to dodge like crazy, but still I seem to drop a whole lot less.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
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  • googlymoogly22googlymoogly22 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    starbigamo wrote: »
    the problem is healing... see my tread "healers ruined the game" to see why :D lol
    This guy is an idiot, as pointed out by others in his thread; ignore him.

    I had a GF-alt pre mod 6 and from what I've seen it would be a nightmare to tank in the current mod 6, nor did I find it fun any longer. But more than anything I want to point out if you're someone with out higher-than-average stats like "aimeesellers" wouldn't it be frustrating to tank the critters whom one-shot? I'm looking at this more from someone who's newer to the game and wants to try out tanking or has been at it for a while but lacks the high-end gear. To me, it seems like they would be in much the same state of mind as the OP; not that I'm insulting you for being new or saying you can't tank with end-game gear. I can tell you right now that if it were me, new-ish to tanking, wanting to try out T2 dungeons, I'd probably switch classes. I would see no fun being the rag doll, getting one-shotted, and ultimately blamed for making the party wipe. I agree with what you said OP and to answer your question, no, the devs don't play their own game; hence the state of this game.
  • alkemist80alkemist80 Member Posts: 957 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    There is currently something wrong (bug) with random mobs ignoring defenses, including going through guard/sanctuary. People have reported this issue but we have yet to see a "fix".

    I play as a devotion OP and I see these random pot shots that deal tremendous amount of damage that would one shot me and knowing I normally would survive those attacks. Also it's not because I took a critical hit from a mob. This problem is much more apparent on tanking classes. It's getting very annoying.
    Banshee (Devotion Justice Oathbound Paladin) - Crueladevil (Soulbinder Damnation Scourge Warlock) - Sindania Balefire (Master Infiltrator Trickster Rogue)

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  • aimeesellersaimeesellers Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 342 Arc User
    Just for the record.... T2's still give me a hard time. I dont run eCC because of the exploit, and I have yet to be in a group that has beaten ToS or eGWD... but we have come close.

    There are indeed times when I take obscene damage through my shield... with Iron Warrior up, and through my DR.

    Yes... those things do need to be fixed.

    Also... I would like to know what gear the OP is running... a 13K defense and 6K deflect is higher than mine. 120K Hit points is just under what I have. I doubt we are that far apart in gear.

    A newer player, with a GF that did not have the advantage of already having a bucket full of extra power points spent is indeed going to be at more of a disadvantage than an older character is.

    So... I will agree there are some aspects that need fixing. But I still feel overall, with the right gear, the right powers, feats, and boons... it is doable.

    A'Mie Stormshield (GF) / A'Mie Stormshard (CW)
    Play Legit or Quit
    PandorasMisfits_Logo_175_zpskpytcqxc.png
    Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
  • tantivetyrelltantivetyrell Member Posts: 180 Arc User
    What I don't like is that shield needs almost constant uptime, making late dungeon running a stale thing. Not to mention having to drop shield to use encounters, with a buggy and delayed shield mechanic.
  • kvetkvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    Not sure what your build and gear looks like, but I've done DDs with plenty of GF that are more than effectively tanking just as well as ever. I don't know what to say to your post other than that. You're doing something wrong, but without understanding your build or seeing you play, I can't offer any advice. All I can say is, there are plenty of GFs out there who are far from BiS (farther even than @aimeesellers there) and who don't have the sort of problem you described.

    I agree about the "superior" potions though, they're completely useless. Someone mentioned it in another thread, and I have a hunch it will turn out to be true, that maybe the "good" potions will Guild versions sold in the Stronghold marketplace. Maybe not what anyone wants to hear... (may not even be true!) but there's some rumint for you. Enjoy :)
  • dfncedfnce Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 509 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Tank doesn't have to take all agro, all damage and stay all time in red, but should keep distance from melees, don't let them flank. Add Steel Defense and GF can survive a lot. I don't like IW because of long casting time, LS/ITF/ET compete for 2 available slots, 3rd slot is always KV. GF needs 4th slot for KV alone :smile:

    I start thinking T1/T2 was more fun before NPC damage nerf. In recent few days i did dozen of trial runs with my DC with LFG groups, more 2.5 groups can afford run without tanks in T2, certainly that 2/3 part.
    EX-DL-BtS / ITF-KC-KB / BF-HD-IBS / FtF-IT-ST-Dis / CA-GW-PG
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  • soonie333soonie333 Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    I understand your frustration on these t1 and t2 dungeons.

    But it seems what you're describing is that you don't move an much as you should. I don't think you can straight up tank a boss or weaker mobs by standing on one spot for long period of time. You have to keep moving. Take aggro put shield up and move around. Get familiar with mob attacking animations and timings to try to avoid them. I know is not easy one wrong move and you dead. I was able to take down both scorpions down in eLOL with my guild mate (trickster rogue) by moving around and putting up my shield.

    Fighter Recovery and steel defense (for me) is very useful tanking in these dungeons. I'm build on based on recovery so my AP bar get filled up faster. One or two normal hits from a boss or a few hits from mobs (with shield up) and I can use fighter recovery. That way you don't have to always rely on your healer. You should be ok if you do this since you have good defense stat and deflect.

    I'm not saying is easy and most of the time it is a struggle, but is not impossible. Just have patience and talk/work with your group.
  • deathbeezdeathbeez Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 789 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I don't agree that it's strategy and lean more towards luck of the draw when a dmg spike comes.
    I think we all agree that the dr is bugged in the new epic content, and tankiness isn't as good as dodge, slide, blink.
    You stand where the dmg is gonna hit, roll the dice, shield up or not.

    I can run and get killed 500% more one run later using the same skills, same everything, no mistakes.

    Best advise I can give is soulforged, steal defense, fighter's recovery, and hope this gets fixed some time soon.
    Edit (Iron Warrior) I use but I hate it because the cast time gets me killed far more then it saves me.
    OP's temp HP cast doesn't take as long as ours.
    At-least they lowered the enforced threat shout time, only took years.
    Post edited by deathbeez on
  • guarrrrrrrdguarrrrrrrd Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    1.1-the shield doesent block certain CCs (from CWs) and piercing powers (from TRs and Bosses)..

    shield sometimes doesn't work
  • legion10398legion10398 Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    Yeah, the real problem is that they made mobs "harder" by giving them insane damage in t2s, hurting classes that don't have a dodge mechanic. They really should have just made the mobs "smarter"; faster attack animations, dodges of their own, and such. But that's too much work for too little gain, in their eyes.
  • eion311eion311 Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    SM, Tact GF here. The one shots are a little ridiculous and as many have said you need to be constantly adjusting so that npcs don't get around you. Another big thing is learning npcs animations for what they are casting/about to attack with. I run Villains Menace/Fighters Recovery...Shield Talent/Steel Defense....Knights Valor/Enforced Threat/Into the Fray. On a pull I hit ITF, then run in hit FR to proc SD, then ET on the group, Shift taunt on stragglers to pull them in. Once you have them on you its just a matter of keeping your shield up and dancing. When AP is full, hit daily, SD procs, hit ITF/ET, rinse and repeat. It helps a lot as well if you have the Cleric Artifact to keep that AP full when needed.

    Edit: It also helps if your group isn't a bunch of terribles standing in red. I pug a lot, though through these pick up groups I've met some great players (and bad ones). When you're not rolling with guildies it's great to have a list of players that you have done instances with that you know are good.
  • deathbeezdeathbeez Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 789 Arc User
    > 6-the mark (our second class ability) doesent grant combat advantage ANY MORE
    I wasn't aware of this. Anyone else confirm?
  • guarrrrrrrdguarrrrrrrd Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    deathbeez wrote: »
    > 6-the mark (our second class ability) doesent grant combat advantage ANY MORE
    I wasn't aware of this. Anyone else confirm?

    i checked - mark still give me CA
  • guarrrrrrrdguarrrrrrrd Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    which mark are you using? tha tab one, the ET one or the TR one?

    mark from tab
    7424636m.png

    ACT also show me 120% effectiveness and "Flank" flag is true
  • urlord283urlord283 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    I too have too many one shots in epicDDs

    but

    I seem to hold my own in pvp

    I can solo with no problem but at the cost of being more "well rounded so I suffer as a "tank" or "Hit sponge"

    Urlord
  • feralplatypusferalplatypus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 36 Arc User
    To me it seems that the OP is trying to play gf the way we used to play it in mod 5. But you simply can't do it like that anymore. It's true that there are tons of bugs. But it's not true that gfs are not viable in dungeons. What is true is that it takes time to learn how to play and now tanking requires much more skill and much more attention paid to every detail during the fight.

    I get one-shot at 120k hp if I don't pay enough attention. Sometimes it happens even if I do. It took me a while to realize that tanking is much more like kiting these days. You gotta move, you gotta really pay attention. Gone are the days when we could just aggro everything around and then stand and wait for the party to kill all the mobs.

    There are many bugs and we all know it (even if sometimes it would be better not to know, lol). But it's still possible to tank and be useful for your party in dungeons. Others already listed skills they're using. I do it similarly. My gf's gear is far from BiS, il 2.8. I tanked eToS, died a couple times but it was alright. I get one-shot in KR sometimes and oh well, it happens.

    I'm not gonna say that it's easy but you know what, I actually do find it more fun than in mod 5 when I could simply stand there and it didn't matter what I was doing because it took something really awful to make my gf die. Now I need to think, I need to move around, I need to pay attention.
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    Came back after some times to have a peek at the Barracks posts. Looks like there's not a lot going on in relation to GF's - sad.

    Back to the OP - I've recently changed spec to a Conq GF.

    IMO it's far better if you're not only doing dungeons. Of course I'm a paper tank now, but at least I can do some dmg and make my dailies without spending 30 mins on a group of mobs as a Protector.

    I agree that tanking (if it's even worth calling it that way with all above mentioned bugs) is fun and rewarding.
    But at the end of the day, I wan to do some DPS to do my freaking dailies...which is not convenient as a tanky build.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    Hi to all.
    I also want to add my thoughts to the conversation here.
    As most Gfs here my IL is not Bis.In pve setup i am IL 2.8.R9s/GTenes ,Bloodcrystal,Guardian Sigil,Trickster Sigil,Lantern.SM Conq.

    I agree with the OP mostly.I can do T1/T2s but i need an experienced competitive party and an OP healer.
    That is the most effective healing class to help us survive.
    One mistake ,one fellow party member not dodging and stay in red,i am dead.
    One delay in a split second to activate a power-i am dead.

    Before mod6 i could carry any pug group to any dungeon.Now i can't.Pugging kessel's wwith classes at 2,2-2,4 IL is dificult and chances of success is 30-40%.That was not the case.

    My rotaion is Lunging(for the extra 50% DR and the fast animation) ,ITF and KV always one.Shield talent,Steel defence.
    Villain's menace primary daily ,FR second option.

    Steel defense is what keeping me alive above every thing else.And a healer.
    I tend to think that for IVs to tank they need a lot more IL than Sms.Cause they lack Steel defense.

    I do ToS regularly ,i did Ecc with the exploits and i did only one legit with out exploits ecc run with a very very experienced party.We wiped 6 times and in 7th time we beat it.I have yet to run GWD.Not a point anywat since it offers nothing good as a reward.

    As for the bugs i agree.

    Villain's Menace CC immunity is bypasses -sometimes- by entagling force ( LOL pretty funny to see a huge GF struggling in mid air).Also bypassed by HR certain strong roots powers.Sometimes.

    Sw bargain bypasses Steel defence.

    SW Grasp bypasses any CC immunity every time.Also bypasses CC resistances.

    Anvil indeed has a limited range nerf.

    Griffon in pvp is useless.1,5 sec normal duration ,0.75 on players.Add 40% tenacity and you are done.Toons just slip over before you can use two executive charges.Too bad i invested 4 points in it,and the conq feat :(:(

    Steel defence in pve does not work for a certain number of toons if you have KV slotted.If two toons stay in read and get red aoes,-bang-you are dead no matted if your steel defence is one.Bug.Sometimes are two sometimes three.In any case i get killed by scorps while steel defense is on too many times.Always with kv on.

    Villain's meanca our primary tanking utility has a longggggggggg ,i mean Loooooooonnggggg casting time.
    many times i die during casting it.Compare this to OPs powers and encounters.

    Shield shift delay.It was faster activating it.For some obscure reason devs increased its activating time.Why?Ask your fellows Cws and thier silly GF guildies that say in every thread "we are monsters in pvp".
    I am pretty 99% certain i read in some patch notes the shield activating time increasing.Cannot find the thread though :(

    Conclusion:
    Tanking is viable with a Sm/Steel defence GF with IL above 2,5 IL.And with a party including an experienced healer and experienced players.One parameter missing and tanking is a disaster.Even with all reqirement meant,Gf player must play almost flawlessly.One mistake in the whole run abnd he is dead.

    Gf suffers from class bugs as mentioned here.

    Gf received conceived ninja nerfs to reduce his competiveness in pvp.

    GF received these netfs due to constant ,epic, endless,non stop, treacherous ,evil and masqueraded whining of CW PVP community.
    Assistants of this effort on Cws were three (3) ,i say again three naive idiot GFs.Influential but idiots.
    Seek no more just read any GF thread made by Cws and these three idiots will step on and attack THEIR OWN CLASS.Pff. :(


  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    After coming back i feel side-lined for paladins. they can tank 360 degrees. Taking me feels like a handicap because if i get hit once in the back, its game over. Theres just such a huge risk, 1 little lag spike or spawn.

    It's tougher for the group because I cannot grab agro quickly when adds spawn due to not being able to use encounters when needed, because of the 1 shots, where paladins can use their skills freely.

    My biggest issue is activation times, just give a short duration buff after the shield is dropped so we can use encounters easier.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    Well wee need to wait and see how it will all work out after the damage nerf.
    Announced changes takes us pretty much down to where we were at mod 5 (well at least kind of).

    So what we do have in the horizon?

    - mobs damage nerf (don't get me wrong it IS badly needed)
    - crazy high boons in SH (again...they won't drop from the sky, EPIC grind needed to get them)

    Both above factors will, IMO, decrease the need to have a tank in the group. I mean a proper, protector tank.
    There are groups doing Elol with 5 DPS, I was in a few (as a Conq GF) that did perfectly w/o a healer or even without me - lol. Granted these guys are overgeared but the fact that it can be done with the current mobs DPS is disturbing.

    I wasn't here on the era of immortal CN soloist. But already read few posts of the ppl claiming that 40% LS is possible with the SH boon. Looking at the YT vids, LS was the main reason one could solo CN. The self healing was just crazy OP.

    Let's hope the dev's will do it smart enough (yes yes I know...) and won't make us tanks obsolete.
    Of course I know and understand that running with a pally or a GF (I'll still stick with a GF) can be better than having an extra DPS.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    kemi1984 wrote: »
    Well wee need to wait and see how it will all work out after the damage nerf.
    Announced changes takes us pretty much down to where we were at mod 5 (well at least kind of).

    So what we do have in the horizon?

    - mobs damage nerf (don't get me wrong it IS badly needed)
    - crazy high boons in SH (again...they won't drop from the sky, EPIC grind needed to get them)

    Both above factors will, IMO, decrease the need to have a tank in the group. I mean a proper, protector tank.
    There are groups doing Elol with 5 DPS, I was in a few (as a Conq GF) that did perfectly w/o a healer or even without me - lol. Granted these guys are overgeared but the fact that it can be done with the current mobs DPS is disturbing.

    I wasn't here on the era of immortal CN soloist. But already read few posts of the ppl claiming that 40% LS is possible with the SH boon. Looking at the YT vids, LS was the main reason one could solo CN. The self healing was just crazy OP.

    Let's hope the dev's will do it smart enough (yes yes I know...) and won't make us tanks obsolete.
    Of course I know and understand that running with a pally or a GF (I'll still stick with a GF) can be better than having an extra DPS.

    It's just poor enemy design. You need bosses or critters to be a constant threat, not slow attacks that anyone can press shift. CC is king for normal things, and bosses attack too infrequency.

    The best solution i can think of is, NOT change how hard they hit. BUFF defense heavily instead, make it so that at higher points the MORE DR you get. balance tenacy around this or just disable the bonus when pvp flagged.

    DPSers will never stack defense high no matter how useful it becomes.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    I hear many opinions on how to change things without making another huge patch.

    Some folks wrote about changing mobs to attack more frequent, not sure will this be any help.
    Nowdays anything in a dungeon is a threat, and it's not the point to change it. If there's no threat of dying than we will be back in mod 5. The tough part is to make it competitive for majority of players.

    What I can say is making the mobs hit harder + adding them like 50% more HP is plain stupid. This is, by far, the easiest and the laziest way to artificially increase the game difficulty.

    Not sure what do you mean by:

    "NOT change how hard they hit. BUFF defense heavily instead, make it so that at higher points the MORE DR you get"

    What about diminishing returns? I have a guild mate that has like 16k defense + perfect Negation so his DR is, well high...still it doesn't protect him well enough.
    Anyway, with the DR bug around, that has been mentioned many times, no amount of defense nor DR will keep one alive in T2.

    The crazy thing is I almost got used to be getting killed 10-15 times in a dungeon run...that is not cool, lol.
    Anyway either it's a DR bug thing, or crazy amount of arpen mobs have or...

    For now I just wait and see how will the patch work out.

    BTW.

    It's nice to see you around grimah :smile: I remember your old activity here some (longer) time ago.
    Hope you will stick around.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
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