In my opinion, HR's problem is each path lacks of feats that allows them do their role.
1) Archery does not have enough tools to get away or keep enemy away from them. All it has is a speed boost feat that is easily shut down by stun/root/daze/prone/slow. My suggestion is that there should be a feat in this tree makes Marauder's Escape break cc and gives HR cc immunity frame while flying away.
2) Combat does not have enough damage and survivability. This melee focus tree is absolutely gutted due to the Wild medicine bug and overnerfed Piercing blade (40% proc only on melee attacks vs Tr's 100% that proc on everything). The worst thing is that the melee base damage is ridiculously low compared to any other melee classes. For example, on my alt GF with 3k power + a crappy lvl 60 mainhand weapon, his Bull Charge's base damage is 9-10k. While on My HR's with 13k power + lvl 70 epic artifact mainhand, his Boar charge's base damage is 3-3.6k. Seriously, this tree needs a massive damage buff.
3) Overall, HR has too many useless/weak/bugged/meh powers.
-Electric shot? This at-will makes mobs angry because it tickles them...
-Hawk shot has base damage lower than Aimed shot, an at-will. Seriously??? Hawk eye should buff damage/crit rate for a duration not just 1 attack.
-Commanding shot has 2-3k base damage with 13k power, which is unreasonably low. The debuff description is too vague. I am not sure if it even worked. Stag Heart needs to gives much much more temp HP.
-Boar Hide should be a duration buff not just a buff for 5 hit. Boar Charge needs to have higher base damage.
-Oak skin healing is awful and defense buff is just a myth since it does not display on character sheet and I do not think it works at all.
-Battlehone gives 400 regen at rank 4. If it were 4k, I might give it a second thought.
-Cruel Recovery gives 1% temp hp upon a crit hit for 16 seconds at rank 4. If it stacked, it would be a nice feature to use, sadly it does not.
-Ambush roots you in place for 1 second with "hello I am here" animation. Trap? Its area effect is way too small to hit anything and the damage is just laughable.
-Throw Caution. Debuff your defense for...wait what? As if HR's defense is not low enough and this power actually makes it lower.
_Aimed shot gets interrupted too easily for a casting at-will. Aimed strike DoT should be stackable up to 3-4 times.
-Rapid shot is not so rapid. Heck, TR's Cloud of steel is like twice faster than this at-will.
_Rain of arrow needs to have area effect as big as CW's Icy Terrain, period. And its melee DoT should be stackable.
Agreed, so many of the HR's powers are lacklustre to say the least. We need another massive overhaul but it won't happen. Devs have their favourite class (CW) and everything else be damned.
Disagree with the statement that Combat lacks survivability though. It's the only thing I have going for me atm. I would, however, like to see Wilds Medicine fixed. Currently the only defensive ability worth using is Aspect of the Lone Wolf. Everything else sux donkey balls. The other class feature I run with is Pathfinder's Action for lack of something better although I'm not sure if the negative Deflect at R1 has been fixed.
But more than anything else HR damage is pitiful and in dire need of buffs.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
@ralexinor while i agree with forest,cr, trappers cunning etc why you want to remove swiftness and bring the old crappy feats back? It only adds some rnd to the class and it makes it less WAI for no bis players and pf will benefit more from it than a sw throught CA?Yes Combat and archery are weak and they need some love but in my opinion a hybrid tree should be always better because thats how the class should be played but most player think omg i play archery stand off node and just snipe them nuubs huehue or boar charge and fox shift should be enough to kill an enemy.... If it comes to this they kill the fun of this class again... it should be a fast/skill based hybrid class and neither combat or archery fits to this only mod 5 trapper or the old hybrid/archer build from mod 2. I bet you have seen those only combat/archery hereos before Sandstorm and i won't see something happening like a combined mod 3/4 hr because with this suggestions those paths will stay weak or gets overbuffed you cant balance a game with 3 trees and 2 paths for every class thats impossible. This game give you options to play a class but dont expect them to be WAI in everything.
Because Swiftness makes it impossible to balance. How is being able to spam encounters whenever you want WAI and balanced? HR is in the state it is atm /because/ of Swiftness. That's what you need to understand.
Swiftness enables use of encounters whenever you want, spammable. No other class has this, besides CW, and it's still fairly broken on that but not as much as HR.
Tell me, how do you want to balance encounters if you can spam them? Make them do 0 damage so we hit people with a million peanuts until they die? That's what it seems like you want, considering you want to keep Swiftness.
Correcting Aim and Prime Critical were very good feats, what are you talking about?
Also I've played HR since module 2, I know what was BiS for each module, I know how HR was in each module. Archery and Combat fit into the HR playstyle during Module 2 and Module 3, in case you didn't know. The reason why HRs were so OP in module 3 was because of the PvP set bonus, not the feats and gear. Module 2/3 HR was a fast/skill-based hybrid class.
Also, lol, you consider current HR skill based? Please tell me you don't. The only time where skill comes into play is if you're fighting a TR.
Look, you won't be able to balance HR without removing Swiftness and Forestbond. Cooldown reduction feats should be implemented still - feats like Correcting Aim and Prime Critical - but Swiftness and Forestbond are too overpowered. If you don't realise this, then I really don't know what to say. Additionally, PF being better than SW isn't an argument, Careful Attack will always be better than what Stormwarden has to offer, and CA should also be fixed to not be multiprocing. That's a bug, not an intended part of the class, hence your argument is null.
I'm not saying bring all the feats from Mod 2/3 back, but Swiftness of the Fox, Forestbond and Thorned roots need to be reworked, so that the class can be given the buffs (and nerfs to Crushing Roots) it needs. It's not the HR feats that are necessarily weak, it's the base damage and powers of the class that are lackluster compared to the other classes, and they haven't been buffed because of broken things like Swiftness and Thorned Roots blowing the class' performance out of proportion.
And that's why those broken things need to be removed, so that we, and the devs, can see what exactly needs to be buffed and by how much. Keeping those things as they are means the class will never get the correct buffs it needs, or at least buffs in the wrong places.
I agree with Swift and Thorned standing in the way of a proper class tweak.
However, I feel like Swiftness is one of the only things that allow HRs to survive (and if done right, prevail) getting jumped by TRs trolling your team's node. If you're losing such a significant proportion of HP from the TR's opening shots, I found the only way to make it out alive is to be able to basically blaze back. You'll either kill the TR, or at least keep him/her occupied enough until backup arrives. As much as I'd love to see the changes we need happen, I'm not confident we'll get enough out of the rebuilt class to warrant getting rid of our one shining Trapper PvP build.
That being said, I went almost exclusively PvE in module 5 and converted to Stormwarden/Archery before I took a hiatus from the game. Coming back in mod 6, I've actually found that build somewhat viable in PvP. The new Cordon of Arrows/Plant Growth helps me limit enemy movements, which is always a plus. Nobody likes walking through red circles if they can help it. Not to mention it's really convenient to be guarding a node alone and having traps placed at all entrances to warn you of that pesky TR sneaking up.
@ralexinor has a point. HR now is a "patched" class. HR is nothing even without 2 of 3 feets.
Just play pure archer or combat to feel it. Whole class is list of broken unfinished nerfed mechanics.At this point mod 3-4 HR was way better even thought had broken issues.
Having reduce of cool downs is great, same as giving HR heavy control path is. But making it exclusive overpowered only-way-to-go path is wrong. Control and damage should be a base HR feature that is emphasized by one or another path but not exclusive.
@ralexinor, I agree with you but I do have a suggestion. I have looked into the class in depth too. Maybe not as far as you have because I'm busy working and can't get real technical.
I have a suggestion which might balance out both the fronts. Why not just take away damage from Thorned Roots. Let us keep Swiftness of the fox, nerf it down to 10%/encounter and keep crushing roots. Make Trapper in this way only a Solid Control Spec.
Or take away the Crushing roots, Let us keep Thorned roots and still nerf Swiftness of the fox to 10%/encounter. Remove it from procing multiple times while buffing folks.
And we are set, CD reduced but no Complete CD reduction, Forestbond wont proc alot any more. It is better to have this fix which is more seemingly viable, rather than getting the feats back from Mod 2/3.
This is my suggestion and by far my own opinion. The logic is simple, if you have control give up on DPS and if you have DPS then give up on Control.
That is what that will make us both viable in PvP and PvE, making Combat/Archery specs viable for DPS and Trapper viable for CC only.
Ok, sandstorm. As much as I respect your level of skill, I am so tiered of your biased suggestions.
Since mod3 you talk about how to balance HR.. and everytime the first thing you say is: "nerf this and nerf that, after that, buff this and that."
I am around since beta and playing HR since mod2. You too, arent you? Havent you learned nothing?
On a meta level, in an ideal world of balance, your suggestions make alot of sense and are on point.
BUT: THIS IS ... CRYPTIC!
What you suggest is just to complex for the devs to understand or execute. Asking for initial nerfs, so the class can be buffed after, will just lead to: nerf now, buff in a uncertain future.
You waste your time and insight in these forums with such complicated things. Really! It will only accomplish one thing: the nerf of the dazes without compensation. And then even you can dumb your HR in the trash.
No, the problem still remains even if you do that.
Again, it's not the feat paths that are the problem in terms of why the class is so weak in damage - it's the base damage of the class itself. Trapper also has some very noticeable damage boosts, possibly even more then Archery and/or Combat.
Just removing Thorned Roots won't fix the issue, because the class itself has such low base damage that that needs to be buffed.
Also, regarding damage boost per path:
Archery: 20% on all ranged skills, 10% damage + 25% crit chance at max distance, 15% crit severity, 40% (20% in PvP) from capstone
Combat: 40% on all combat skills, 5% up to 25% for each target around (Skirmisher's Gambit is generally speaking, not a damage boost)
Trapper: 10% on encounters, 34% damage and 5% crit chance on all skills (Archery and Combat generally don't have any use of Serpent, while Trapper gets high benefits from it), 30% from capstone
PvP-wise, Archery has a base 40% damage boost, with up to 15% crit severity/power and Stillness of the Forest. Generally unless you're playing offnode, you won't have the Stillness boost, but you'll still probably get maybe 5% damage boost from it. Rising Focus is generally decent, so that's about a 10%~ damage boost (that's being generous), so overall that's a 50% damage boost.
Combat has a total of 45% damage boost in a 1v1.
Trapper has up to 74% damage boost, if you know what you're doing. Without serpent, that's still 40%, which is still very in line with the other paths, especially considering the enormous AP gain you have.
So all in all, Trapper would still outperform the other two paths in PvP. Swiftness only procing once on encounters (I'm looking at you, Fox Shift) would help, in which you could probably still leave it at 15% even though 5-10% would bring it more in line with the Archery feat, however, I think Trapper's Cunning should be reworked to something more useful for PvE, as it's somewhat broken in PvP too, what with the random dazes on Careful Attack. CC should never be reliant on RNG. You could then keep Forestbond as it is.
I'm also pretty sure the Trapper feat counts as hard cooldown reduction rather than recharge speed increase, so 15% CDR = 30% RSI = 6,000 recovery per encounter use. The Archery feat (30% or something), if I recall correctly but don't quote me on this, is RSI not CDR, so it's worth approximately 6,000 recovery on ranged skills only as a T4 feat. So that's it again in terms of perspective.
Again, I'm not saying bring back the mod 2/3 feats, I'm just using Correcting Aim and Prime Critical as examples of good feats, as they were amongst the best feats from the mod 2/3 HR.
I'm also pretty sure the Trapper feat counts as hard cooldown reduction rather than recharge speed increase
it is hard cool down.
I m not even sure if it is 15 of recharge speed after recovery application or before. Anyway it is hard 15% from swiftness itself.
one of the fixes could be making it recharge speed increase work same way are recovery where 100% is 1/2 of skill time.
HR mod 2 had great interactions where melee was recharging archer encounters as far as I remember and vice versa.
HR mod 2/3 as well had higher encounter dps. Plus general gameplay for class seems more solid and bounded together. Paths were utilizing tab as well way more class features that are broken now like battlehoned, cruel, stormstep, binding/oak etc.
you are right about part that Correcting Aim and Prime Critical are good mechanic. Something like this should be for melee as well.
I have an Archer HR and a formerly Trapper HR that I respecced into Combat.
Combat has so much potential! But we need the one feat that makes trappers into the OP nonsense that they currently are: Combat needs Fox Swiftness more than anyone.
In my honest opinion atm, reworking HR would probably make the class end up with alot of broken stuffs, and this includes reworking particular feats too. And we have seen this example happen beautifully with TR. They gave them new paragon paths and we all saw the Wonder of Broken stuff. I do not blame cryptic. They are humans too. We are meant to learn from our mistake.
Solution1:
>> The main focus of the argument ends up to one point altogether, remove the CC we have literally. Take away the Root timing as well. Let us have the Same DPS from Roots, we dont need the CC or Root control. <<
Hard CD reduction from Forestbond and Swiftness can still remain and Now I'm saying this because all classes are getting these particular feats to a certain degree.
GWFs are stacking recovery too for getting higher DPS, faster attacks etc. TRs have Knife's Edge and the other feat for 10% CD reduction every time they enter stealth.
CWs have the feat now which gives them CD reduction too now, and it recently got semi-nerfed/fixed.
Solution2:
>> Remove the CC we have, bring back the Mod 5 HR, nerf Thorned Roots DPS, DO NOT BUFF OUR BASE DPS. HR is hybrid class in my mind the best combo it has are from TRs/CWs. And give CWs atleast a flat 10-15% CC buff on entangling etc, but the problem here is that we will end up having those Permafreeze CWs again.
Can you see the reason why I ask you to understand what you ask for. It will keep destroying the class. It is better to have a class reworked once, it is NEVER good to have it reworked a second time. By rework I mean, complete rewamp or change of particular feats which might render the class useless. Fixing/Nerfing the Roots/CC we have is ok with me I never relied on it.
HR CC must Always be less than CW, best possible scenario and probably the EASIEST fix is to max Crushing roots a 1-5% Chance on proccing Stun etc. This would fix the Issue that most people have with perma-stun HR.
Balancing it will be a pain in the butt ralexinor, Believe me we will suffer greatly. What you say comes from high insight of looking at the class. But if what you seek comes to life, we will literally lose this class and it being rendered USELESS.
Please think about it. There are 100's of players out their that cant keep respeccing and figuring out gear mix because of these nerfs.
It's not just me or you but 100s out there who spend money to get geared, having to redo it would make this game lose more players.
Sincerely,
Jinchuriki
PS. I do not mean to offend anyone neither am I shouting on my points, the reason for caps is my laziness on using the darn Bold feat xD.
Because Swiftness makes it impossible to balance. How is being able to spam encounters whenever you want WAI and balanced? HR is in the state it is atm /because/ of Swiftness. That's what you need to understand.
Swiftness enables use of encounters whenever you want, spammable. No other class has this, besides CW, and it's still fairly broken on that but not as much as HR.
Tell me, how do you want to balance encounters if you can spam them? Make them do 0 damage so we hit people with a million peanuts until they die? That's what it seems like you want, considering you want to keep Swiftness.
Correcting Aim and Prime Critical were very good feats, what are you talking about?
Also I've played HR since module 2, I know what was BiS for each module, I know how HR was in each module. Archery and Combat fit into the HR playstyle during Module 2 and Module 3, in case you didn't know. The reason why HRs were so OP in module 3 was because of the PvP set bonus, not the feats and gear. Module 2/3 HR was a fast/skill-based hybrid class.
Also, lol, you consider current HR skill based? Please tell me you don't. The only time where skill comes into play is if you're fighting a TR.
Look, you won't be able to balance HR without removing Swiftness and Forestbond. Cooldown reduction feats should be implemented still - feats like Correcting Aim and Prime Critical - but Swiftness and Forestbond are too overpowered. If you don't realise this, then I really don't know what to say. Additionally, PF being better than SW isn't an argument, Careful Attack will always be better than what Stormwarden has to offer, and CA should also be fixed to not be multiprocing. That's a bug, not an intended part of the class, hence your argument is null.
I'm not saying bring all the feats from Mod 2/3 back, but Swiftness of the Fox, Forestbond and Thorned roots need to be reworked, so that the class can be given the buffs (and nerfs to Crushing Roots) it needs. It's not the HR feats that are necessarily weak, it's the base damage and powers of the class that are lackluster compared to the other classes, and they haven't been buffed because of broken things like Swiftness and Thorned Roots blowing the class' performance out of proportion.
And that's why those broken things need to be removed, so that we, and the devs, can see what exactly needs to be buffed and by how much. Keeping those things as they are means the class will never get the correct buffs it needs, or at least buffs in the wrong places.
sry but everything that adds randomness to a class is HAMSTER talking about prime critical etc. Yes as i mentioned forestbound is too much and is too strong with swiftness specially in team fights.
No im not saying spamming encounters with the current trapper is skill based but it would be without the daze. And yes thats basicly what i want i will outplay people with encounters and not just 1shot people or kill them with 1 rota.
As a told you every class has this one and only path called meta (every mmo has this btw) cryptic will never manage it to balance every tree/path not even blizzard could do this with WoW. So you wont buff sw? But the other trees should be equal? It will never work Sandstorm if they try to balance every tree the hr becomes op or weak in general thats my point. And mod 3/4 hr was skilless and no fun to play and i played it also since mod2 on bis lvl but stopped playing with mod 4 that was just too dumb in my opinion and that would happen again if you remove swiftness. I rather use 9-x encounters than boar hide/fox and some at wills as it was in mod 4 thats my opinion. Mod 3 hr was broken in many ways and was neither no fun to play. And those 2 mods wont match the playstyle i like with the hr only mod2/5 was good and i hated prime critical/correcting back in mod2 it was too much rnd against a TR. Im fine with a nerf of swiftness and removing forestboumd but dont add rnd to the class.
Edit: in short i understand what you mean but cryptic will never be able to balance every tree (thats what you and many other mmorpg players wont get and I'm trying to tell everyone in this forum) there will be always a meta and archery/combat should not be the meta. You can choose different builds beside the meta but dont except to be as sucessfull as the others or have you seen any exe/skull tr, sentinel gwf, etc bering sucessfull in pvp in this mod? The meta stays until devs change something otherwise it took ages to balance and not only one mmo managed to reach the perfect balance. Thats a fact and in my opinion Trapper or call it hybrid tree should be the way to go because you should be rewarded to switch stances and moving between long/close range because you cant balance the surviveabilty/dmg of a hybrid class in which 1 stances gets benefits from 2 different trees and 1 tree is hybrid. Mobas like Smite (Uller Champion) and LoL (dont know the champions name) knows that and it works. I just personally dont like to play a hybrid class which focus one stance.
The topic is endless until cryptic says one of the 3 trees is the pvp tree and the others are pve with such a change it wouldnt be that difficult to reach some sort of balance.
Post edited by murthag1990 on
Black Turtle TryhartzIV
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
I like it that when a Trapper lands roots on multiple targets that he gets instant recovery. And I'm not wild about the slow death from Thorned Roots, if that even exists any more. Up the damage from encounters, and reduce the damage from Roots, keep the stun but keep it within limits. With that I'd think you'd have a decent character. Aimed shot used to be the best weapon in my arsenal. But now it has pretty much the same DPS as the other ranged at wills. That is pretty stupid considering that it is often near impossible to get it off uninterrupted. If it did double damage, it be great fun. Forest Ghost would also be great if it could be relied on to work when you actually needed it. The dodge needs work. I've never been able to rely on it. The lag makes getting a read impossible. The HR class also desperately needs a buff that would make it more attractive for dungeon runs and PvP.
So we can point out the problems and fixes but the question is are they listening and how soon will these changes be made? why won't they comment or respond?
I think weapon damage needs to be buffed a little, maybe 10% to ranged, 25% to melee. However, the big thing is that at-will damage needs to be increased by like 75-100%. No joke. I think encounters should remain the same, however, because trapper HR is strong because they can spam encounters, making them much more viable than the other two. If you buff encounters or weapon damage too much, trapper HR will become overpowered, while remaining stronger than combat and archery. If at-wills get major buffs, combat and archery can finally be equal to trapper. Also, I think roots don't necessarily need to be nerfed, except they do need to fix dodges so roots are dodgeable. If roots can be dodged (and the associated daze), they won't be so incredibly strong. Making wild's medicine stronger would add viability to tanky combat HR, which I played and had fun with Mods 2-4 (now trapper). Also, battlehoned sucks. Don't make it give regen, regen sucks so bad, especially while in combat (when battlehoned is active). Make it something like a heal for weapon damage every second for 10 seconds after being hit, with like a 20 second cooldown. Actually, I might even suggest totally changing it to something else, because that's really similar to wild's medicine. Either way, don't keep it as regen. Personally, I think it could be made to be something like the old AotLF, giving increased damage resistance, but maybe after being hit. If I remember correctly, GFs have combat superiority giving them 15% bonus damage all the time, so maybe it should be 5/10/15% bonus damage resistance? That would also help our survivability. With all the armorpen though, it really should be like 10/17.5/25% damage resistance, finally allowing us to reach numbers like 40-50% damage resistance previously reserved for GFs, GWFs, OPs, and the rare DC. I just know at-wills need to be buffed, overall damage needs to be buffed, and overall survivability could be buffed in some way. Even just a feat like the OPs final 3 heroic would be good. Anyway, that's my opinion.
It still blows my mind how Swiftness of the Fox hasn't been move to combat tree. Combat is the tree that should be weaving in and out of stances relying on quick cooldowns to stay engaged, NOT trapper.
I think you could fix HR very easily by changing the following things.
-Move Fox Swiftness to Combat
-Increase Offhand weapon damage by 40%
-Increase all encounters by 20-50% (hawk shot loooool)
-Remove "Prey" player debuff
Comments
Agreed, so many of the HR's powers are lacklustre to say the least. We need another massive overhaul but it won't happen. Devs have their favourite class (CW) and everything else be damned.
Disagree with the statement that Combat lacks survivability though. It's the only thing I have going for me atm. I would, however, like to see Wilds Medicine fixed. Currently the only defensive ability worth using is Aspect of the Lone Wolf. Everything else sux donkey balls. The other class feature I run with is Pathfinder's Action for lack of something better although I'm not sure if the negative Deflect at R1 has been fixed.
But more than anything else HR damage is pitiful and in dire need of buffs.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Because Swiftness makes it impossible to balance. How is being able to spam encounters whenever you want WAI and balanced? HR is in the state it is atm /because/ of Swiftness. That's what you need to understand.
Swiftness enables use of encounters whenever you want, spammable. No other class has this, besides CW, and it's still fairly broken on that but not as much as HR.
Tell me, how do you want to balance encounters if you can spam them? Make them do 0 damage so we hit people with a million peanuts until they die? That's what it seems like you want, considering you want to keep Swiftness.
Correcting Aim and Prime Critical were very good feats, what are you talking about?
Also I've played HR since module 2, I know what was BiS for each module, I know how HR was in each module. Archery and Combat fit into the HR playstyle during Module 2 and Module 3, in case you didn't know. The reason why HRs were so OP in module 3 was because of the PvP set bonus, not the feats and gear. Module 2/3 HR was a fast/skill-based hybrid class.
Also, lol, you consider current HR skill based? Please tell me you don't. The only time where skill comes into play is if you're fighting a TR.
Look, you won't be able to balance HR without removing Swiftness and Forestbond. Cooldown reduction feats should be implemented still - feats like Correcting Aim and Prime Critical - but Swiftness and Forestbond are too overpowered. If you don't realise this, then I really don't know what to say. Additionally, PF being better than SW isn't an argument, Careful Attack will always be better than what Stormwarden has to offer, and CA should also be fixed to not be multiprocing. That's a bug, not an intended part of the class, hence your argument is null.
I'm not saying bring all the feats from Mod 2/3 back, but Swiftness of the Fox, Forestbond and Thorned roots need to be reworked, so that the class can be given the buffs (and nerfs to Crushing Roots) it needs. It's not the HR feats that are necessarily weak, it's the base damage and powers of the class that are lackluster compared to the other classes, and they haven't been buffed because of broken things like Swiftness and Thorned Roots blowing the class' performance out of proportion.
And that's why those broken things need to be removed, so that we, and the devs, can see what exactly needs to be buffed and by how much. Keeping those things as they are means the class will never get the correct buffs it needs, or at least buffs in the wrong places.
However, I feel like Swiftness is one of the only things that allow HRs to survive (and if done right, prevail) getting jumped by TRs trolling your team's node. If you're losing such a significant proportion of HP from the TR's opening shots, I found the only way to make it out alive is to be able to basically blaze back. You'll either kill the TR, or at least keep him/her occupied enough until backup arrives. As much as I'd love to see the changes we need happen, I'm not confident we'll get enough out of the rebuilt class to warrant getting rid of our one shining Trapper PvP build.
That being said, I went almost exclusively PvE in module 5 and converted to Stormwarden/Archery before I took a hiatus from the game. Coming back in mod 6, I've actually found that build somewhat viable in PvP. The new Cordon of Arrows/Plant Growth helps me limit enemy movements, which is always a plus. Nobody likes walking through red circles if they can help it. Not to mention it's really convenient to be guarding a node alone and having traps placed at all entrances to warn you of that pesky TR sneaking up.
Just play pure archer or combat to feel it. Whole class is list of broken unfinished nerfed mechanics.At this point mod 3-4 HR was way better even thought had broken issues.
Having reduce of cool downs is great, same as giving HR heavy control path is. But making it exclusive overpowered only-way-to-go path is wrong. Control and damage should be a base HR feature that is emphasized by one or another path but not exclusive.
@deadpool, I agree with you too.
I have a suggestion which might balance out both the fronts. Why not just take away damage from Thorned Roots. Let us keep Swiftness of the fox, nerf it down to 10%/encounter and keep crushing roots. Make Trapper in this way only a Solid Control Spec.
Or take away the Crushing roots, Let us keep Thorned roots and still nerf Swiftness of the fox to 10%/encounter. Remove it from procing multiple times while buffing folks.
And we are set, CD reduced but no Complete CD reduction, Forestbond wont proc alot any more. It is better to have this fix which is more seemingly viable, rather than getting the feats back from Mod 2/3.
This is my suggestion and by far my own opinion. The logic is simple, if you have control give up on DPS and if you have DPS then give up on Control.
That is what that will make us both viable in PvP and PvE, making Combat/Archery specs viable for DPS and Trapper viable for CC only.
Sincerely,
Jinchuriki
TR + HR + OP + SW
Nikostratos
Since mod3 you talk about how to balance HR.. and everytime the first thing you say is: "nerf this and nerf that, after that, buff this and that."
I am around since beta and playing HR since mod2. You too, arent you? Havent you learned nothing?
On a meta level, in an ideal world of balance, your suggestions make alot of sense and are on point.
BUT: THIS IS ... CRYPTIC!
What you suggest is just to complex for the devs to understand or execute. Asking for initial nerfs, so the class can be buffed after, will just lead to: nerf now, buff in a uncertain future.
You waste your time and insight in these forums with such complicated things. Really! It will only accomplish one thing: the nerf of the dazes without compensation. And then even you can dumb your HR in the trash.
Again, it's not the feat paths that are the problem in terms of why the class is so weak in damage - it's the base damage of the class itself. Trapper also has some very noticeable damage boosts, possibly even more then Archery and/or Combat.
Just removing Thorned Roots won't fix the issue, because the class itself has such low base damage that that needs to be buffed.
Also, regarding damage boost per path:
Archery: 20% on all ranged skills, 10% damage + 25% crit chance at max distance, 15% crit severity, 40% (20% in PvP) from capstone
Combat: 40% on all combat skills, 5% up to 25% for each target around (Skirmisher's Gambit is generally speaking, not a damage boost)
Trapper: 10% on encounters, 34% damage and 5% crit chance on all skills (Archery and Combat generally don't have any use of Serpent, while Trapper gets high benefits from it), 30% from capstone
PvP-wise, Archery has a base 40% damage boost, with up to 15% crit severity/power and Stillness of the Forest. Generally unless you're playing offnode, you won't have the Stillness boost, but you'll still probably get maybe 5% damage boost from it. Rising Focus is generally decent, so that's about a 10%~ damage boost (that's being generous), so overall that's a 50% damage boost.
Combat has a total of 45% damage boost in a 1v1.
Trapper has up to 74% damage boost, if you know what you're doing. Without serpent, that's still 40%, which is still very in line with the other paths, especially considering the enormous AP gain you have.
So all in all, Trapper would still outperform the other two paths in PvP. Swiftness only procing once on encounters (I'm looking at you, Fox Shift) would help, in which you could probably still leave it at 15% even though 5-10% would bring it more in line with the Archery feat, however, I think Trapper's Cunning should be reworked to something more useful for PvE, as it's somewhat broken in PvP too, what with the random dazes on Careful Attack. CC should never be reliant on RNG. You could then keep Forestbond as it is.
I'm also pretty sure the Trapper feat counts as hard cooldown reduction rather than recharge speed increase, so 15% CDR = 30% RSI = 6,000 recovery per encounter use. The Archery feat (30% or something), if I recall correctly but don't quote me on this, is RSI not CDR, so it's worth approximately 6,000 recovery on ranged skills only as a T4 feat. So that's it again in terms of perspective.
Again, I'm not saying bring back the mod 2/3 feats, I'm just using Correcting Aim and Prime Critical as examples of good feats, as they were amongst the best feats from the mod 2/3 HR.
I m not even sure if it is 15 of recharge speed after recovery application or before. Anyway it is hard 15% from swiftness itself.
one of the fixes could be making it recharge speed increase work same way are recovery where 100% is 1/2 of skill time.
HR mod 2 had great interactions where melee was recharging archer encounters as far as I remember and vice versa.
HR mod 2/3 as well had higher encounter dps. Plus general gameplay for class seems more solid and bounded together. Paths were utilizing tab as well way more class features that are broken now like battlehoned, cruel, stormstep, binding/oak etc.
you are right about part that Correcting Aim and Prime Critical are good mechanic. Something like this should be for melee as well.
Combat has so much potential! But we need the one feat that makes trappers into the OP nonsense that they currently are: Combat needs Fox Swiftness more than anyone.
Solution1:
>> The main focus of the argument ends up to one point altogether, remove the CC we have literally. Take away the Root timing as well. Let us have the Same DPS from Roots, we dont need the CC or Root control. <<
Hard CD reduction from Forestbond and Swiftness can still remain and Now I'm saying this because all classes are getting these particular feats to a certain degree.
GWFs are stacking recovery too for getting higher DPS, faster attacks etc. TRs have Knife's Edge and the other feat for 10% CD reduction every time they enter stealth.
CWs have the feat now which gives them CD reduction too now, and it recently got semi-nerfed/fixed.
Solution2:
>> Remove the CC we have, bring back the Mod 5 HR, nerf Thorned Roots DPS, DO NOT BUFF OUR BASE DPS. HR is hybrid class in my mind the best combo it has are from TRs/CWs. And give CWs atleast a flat 10-15% CC buff on entangling etc, but the problem here is that we will end up having those Permafreeze CWs again.
Can you see the reason why I ask you to understand what you ask for. It will keep destroying the class. It is better to have a class reworked once, it is NEVER good to have it reworked a second time. By rework I mean, complete rewamp or change of particular feats which might render the class useless. Fixing/Nerfing the Roots/CC we have is ok with me I never relied on it.
HR CC must Always be less than CW, best possible scenario and probably the EASIEST fix is to max Crushing roots a 1-5% Chance on proccing Stun etc. This would fix the Issue that most people have with perma-stun HR.
Balancing it will be a pain in the butt ralexinor, Believe me we will suffer greatly. What you say comes from high insight of looking at the class. But if what you seek comes to life, we will literally lose this class and it being rendered USELESS.
Please think about it. There are 100's of players out their that cant keep respeccing and figuring out gear mix because of these nerfs.
It's not just me or you but 100s out there who spend money to get geared, having to redo it would make this game lose more players.
Sincerely,
Jinchuriki
PS. I do not mean to offend anyone neither am I shouting on my points, the reason for caps is my laziness on using the darn Bold feat xD.
TR + HR + OP + SW
Nikostratos
sry but everything that adds randomness to a class is HAMSTER talking about prime critical etc. Yes as i mentioned forestbound is too much and is too strong with swiftness specially in team fights.
No im not saying spamming encounters with the current trapper is skill based but it would be without the daze. And yes thats basicly what i want i will outplay people with encounters and not just 1shot people or kill them with 1 rota.
As a told you every class has this one and only path called meta (every mmo has this btw) cryptic will never manage it to balance every tree/path not even blizzard could do this with WoW. So you wont buff sw? But the other trees should be equal? It will never work Sandstorm if they try to balance every tree the hr becomes op or weak in general thats my point. And mod 3/4 hr was skilless and no fun to play and i played it also since mod2 on bis lvl but stopped playing with mod 4 that was just too dumb in my opinion and that would happen again if you remove swiftness. I rather use 9-x encounters than boar hide/fox and some at wills as it was in mod 4 thats my opinion. Mod 3 hr was broken in many ways and was neither no fun to play. And those 2 mods wont match the playstyle i like with the hr only mod2/5 was good and i hated prime critical/correcting back in mod2 it was too much rnd against a TR. Im fine with a nerf of swiftness and removing forestboumd but dont add rnd to the class.
Edit: in short i understand what you mean but cryptic will never be able to balance every tree (thats what you and many other mmorpg players wont get and I'm trying to tell everyone in this forum) there will be always a meta and archery/combat should not be the meta. You can choose different builds beside the meta but dont except to be as sucessfull as the others or have you seen any exe/skull tr, sentinel gwf, etc bering sucessfull in pvp in this mod? The meta stays until devs change something otherwise it took ages to balance and not only one mmo managed to reach the perfect balance. Thats a fact and in my opinion Trapper or call it hybrid tree should be the way to go because you should be rewarded to switch stances and moving between long/close range because you cant balance the surviveabilty/dmg of a hybrid class in which 1 stances gets benefits from 2 different trees and 1 tree is hybrid. Mobas like Smite (Uller Champion) and LoL (dont know the champions name) knows that and it works. I just personally dont like to play a hybrid class which focus one stance.
The topic is endless until cryptic says one of the 3 trees is the pvp tree and the others are pve with such a change it wouldnt be that difficult to reach some sort of balance.
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
I think you could fix HR very easily by changing the following things.
-Move Fox Swiftness to Combat
-Increase Offhand weapon damage by 40%
-Increase all encounters by 20-50% (hawk shot loooool)
-Remove "Prey" player debuff