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Helping the PVP community improve.

ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
edited December 2014 in PvE Discussion
Everyone has most likely experienced it at one time or other. You solo or duo Q into PVP. You look around at your teammates and you don't recognize any handles or guilds. You run to mid to contest at the beginning and your entire team is at home base. After you are quickly destroyed at mid your team starts running around the map, fighting between nodes you don't own, or running across the bridge, or throwing daggers from pillars. Thus is PUG PVP.

I've often wondered to myself how to improve this scenario so that solo Qing would be less frustrating. I thought "well I could write a synopsis of PVP game play and basic strategy", however, if instructions are too wordy people with short attention spans (like myself) may not take the time to read it. So here's what I think may be a better solution.

When you hit level 60 you get a quest that sends you to the trade of blades back to the domination battle master. He gives you a domination quest that is mandatory before Qing into PVP. This quest is a very basic run through similar to the run through you get at the beginning of the game introducing you to your encounters, at wills, dailies... etc. You do this at level 60 so that people who are going to be doing their dailies for the AD are made to understand what to do when they get into a round of PVP.

This introductory quest would go through different scenarios with NPC's capping nodes and how best to win a game, most importantly showing that contesting nodes is essential for a PVP win. It would describe the capping/contesting system, points system, and maybe, if the devs were feeling frisky, could describe rotations and how to try and rotate on your "team" to counter as well.

The point of all of this would be to improve the basic understanding of the game for new players so that it may decrease, at least to some degree the frustration in trying to explain to people to fight on the node.

Thanks for your time and consideration.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

imgur pics don't work


Post edited by Unknown User on

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    lucifron44lucifron44 Member Posts: 417 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Sure there should be a pvp levelling with different realms of increasing level, just as the pve levelling.
    Russian leaderboard first page. The proof.
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    That would have little to no effect imho. It has been said over and over again that the only true way to get people to fight on nodes and contest is to reward points for stuff that actually contributes to winning. The score system is working against how you should play.

    You basically just have to add one point per second contesting nodes, maybe even adjust for the numbers of own/opposing players on given node. Pugs will always capture and try to kill first, tutorial or not.

    And you know what would also help PVP? If you would kick all the exploiting ****heads out of your guild... but wait, your leader is one as well you say? That's a pity!
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    it would be cool if they write some tips in the pvp map loading screen, way easier.
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    ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    loboguild wrote: »
    That would have little to no effect imho. It has been said over and over again that the only true way to get people to fight on nodes and contest is to reward points for stuff that actually contributes to winning. The score system is working against how you should play.

    You basically just have to add one point per second contesting nodes, maybe even adjust for the numbers of own/opposing players on given node. Pugs will always capture and try to kill first, tutorial or not.

    And you know what would also help PVP? If you would kick all the exploiting ****heads out of your guild... but wait, your leader is one as well you say? That's a pity!

    I'm not saying this is a fix, to be a complete fix it needs to be in combination with other factors. I'm saying some people don't even understand the concept, I know this to be fact because I've been told so by new players on my teams before.

    I also will not be deterred by your constant barrage of inflammatory speech on my every post, this is about helping PVP, if you'd prefer not to try and better PVP then perhaps my posts aren't the place for you.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


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    ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    it would be cool if they write some tips in the pvp map loading screen, way easier.

    True, and I like that idea for sure, but how many times do people pay attention to what's on the loading screen tbh? I think this would work well in conjunction, however, as another reminder of what best works in PVP matches.

    Thanks for your reply.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


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    vedran541vedran541 Member Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Long time ago i suggested writing tips on loading screen for domination. But its never gonna happen, and your questline to pvp is never gonna happen also.

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?657791-Domination-Suggestion

    But i promise you man, there is no point suggestion **** for pvp. It has all been suggested before but we are still stuck with the same 2 pvp maps, the same mode and everything. i pretty much gave up.
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I also will not be deterred by your constant barrage of inflammatory speech on my every post, this is about helping PVP, if you'd prefer not to try and better PVP then perhaps my posts aren't the place for you.

    Yeah, whatever. I'm not really confident but there's still hope Cryptic/PWE will deal with you people sooner or later. Until then, you deserve the crappy balance and every PUG you can get. Have fun!
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    ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    loboguild wrote: »
    Yeah, whatever. I'm not really confident but there's still hope Cryptiv/PWE will deal with you people sooner or later. Until then, you deserve the crappy balance and every PUG you can get. Have fun!

    I hope you have a wonderful day sir, filled with lots of fun PVP, good loot and generally anything else that can improve your salty demeanor.

    Thanks for your reply.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


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    ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    Long time ago i suggested writing tips on loading screen for domination. But its never gonna happen, and your questline to pvp is never gonna happen also.

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?657791-Domination-Suggestion

    But i promise you man, there is no point suggestion **** for pvp. It has all been suggested before but we are still stuck with the same 2 pvp maps, the same mode and everything. i pretty much gave up.

    Call me a dreamer, but I try to post anything I think may be helpful. Many of the ideas are a combination of what I've talked with others about. I don't typically post solutions I think would be overly demanding, I try to post possible solutions or at least work arounds that may enhance the gaming environment. I just would like to see the game continue to grow and I like to be part of trying to come up with creative answers to problems that become evident in the game.

    Thanks for your reply.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    loboguild wrote: »
    That would have little to no effect imho. It has been said over and over again that the only true way to get people to fight on nodes and contest is to reward points for stuff that actually contributes to winning. The score system is working against how you should play.

    This. I cant count the times I told ppl to cap/ defend bases, while I fought 1v2 or 3 on the enemy base and the answer was basicly 'shut up, I got more points. I am better, I know better'.

    As long as you can ride to a node in the last second and get the points for capping it, there will be PuGs ignoring two bases capped by the enemy, to get their 300 pts.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    asterotg wrote: »
    This. I cant count the times I told ppl to cap/ defend bases, while I fought 1v2 or 3 on the enemy base and the answer was basicly 'shut up, I got more points. I am better, I know better'.

    As long as you can ride to a node in the last second and get the points for capping it, there will be PuGs ignoring two bases capped by the enemy, to get their 300 pts.

    I agree that there should be changes to the point awarding system. I may post to that effect later, however for the purpose of this post I'm trying to help new players actually grasp the idea of how to win. There will always be "point grabbers" but I'm specifically addressing those players who don't even understand the basics of the game. This would help those players by introducing them in a non threatening voiced over environment which easily explains the fundamentals of domination PVP.

    Thanks for your reply.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    asterotg wrote: »
    As long as you can ride to a node in the last second and get the points for capping it, there will be PuGs ignoring two bases capped by the enemy, to get their 300 pts.

    Of course, and let me add rightfully so. If you invest two hours of your time digging into the system you sure figure it out, but I bet the vast majority of players entering Domination are there for the occasional daily and don't really care.

    And that's where the devs have to do a better job guiding them through. Alongside a solo queue for the leaderboard the adjustment in the score system is another obvious change that would make PVP so much better. Although I can't really estimate how much work would have to be put into it, they basically said PVP population is too low overall and it would seem that this is the real reason little has happened over months.

    I wouldn't hold my breath. But in the end Mod 3 came with a whole bunch of PVP stuff, maybe Mod 6 as well?
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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I agree that there should be changes to the point awarding system. I may post to that effect later, however for the purpose of this post I'm trying to help new players actually grasp the idea of how to win. There will always be "point grabbers" but I'm specifically addressing those players who don't even understand the basics of the game. This would help those players by introducing them in a non threatening voiced over environment which easily explains the fundamentals of domination PVP.

    Thanks for your reply.

    I get your idea, but what you are suggesting has the problem of instant gratification.

    If you educate ppl how to play, they could win the match and get more glory in the end. If you play like a selfcentered ****, you get points for every kill/ cap, instant gratification.

    There has been a test, where children have been given a chocolate. They have been told, that they will get a second one, if they dont eat the first one for half an hour. Guess who ate the chocolate? The same mechanic will be seen in PvP, if they dont change the reward system, even if you tell them how it is done right.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    You could also just skip that single player score entirely. It's a 5 on 5 so there should be a team score and that's it. No point of handing out +% glory for the top players that are not really the top players. I would much rather raise the glory earnings a bit for everyone.
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    ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    asterotg wrote: »
    I get your idea, but what you are suggesting has the problem of instant gratification.

    If you educate ppl how to play, they could win the match and get more glory in the end. If you play like a selfcentered ****, you get points for every kill/ cap, instant gratification.

    There has been a test, where children have been given a chocolate. They have been told, that they will get a second one, if they dont eat the first one for half an hour. Guess who ate the chocolate? The same mechanic will be seen in PvP, if they dont change the reward system, even if you tell them how it is done right.

    I think you guys are reading a bit too much into this. This is meant to be a tutorial for new players. The few players I've taken the time to explain this simple information to are usually grateful and try to capture nodes and contest the other nodes by at least fighting on them. If you explain the game to them they can do as they like however it is not a fix as I stated before. It is meant to aid, not fix. Let me reiterate.. I don't think this simple idea will "fix" pug PVP.

    That aside I think that trying to explain this during a match is difficult at the least or nigh impossible at the worst. A tutorial would help by explaining the basics. It's cost in terms of time is very little and it can't hurt anything and may save some time in trying to tell your pugs "please just stand on the node".

    Thanks for your reply.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    You are right, a tutorial would help. It would be better then nothing. I am afraid, that something like a tutorial could be used as a 'easy way out' by cryptic. Instead of fixing the basic problem, they could slap a tutorial on and say, 'here you go'.

    Ofc the ppl you educated became better players. Thing is, they were willing to listen. I played a lot of PuG, once I asked 'dont you know how to play PvP? Should I tell you?' and one of my teammates answered 'no, plz tell me, I am new to this game'. I ended up telling him basic strategy and the strategy for his class for 1/2 hour. He even asked for tips for his mate, playing another class. The ones asking/ listening to advice are interested, sadly most ppl are not.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    lucifron44lucifron44 Member Posts: 417 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    the idea of how to win.

    You mean win, or gaining points?
    Russian leaderboard first page. The proof.
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    benskix2benskix2 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 674 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I like this idea. I think the tutorial should be a short domination match against the IWD adventurer NPCs, and that you should have to win the match to be able progress and queue for PVP.
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    pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Why doesn't your guild prepare a tutorial video like this and post it here?
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    Why doesn't your guild prepare a tutorial video like this and post it here?

    because people reading forums are already ten steps ahead.
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    pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    because people reading forums are already ten steps ahead.

    Eh not really.

    I think the forums are the first place a lot of confused players would go to in order to get help and advice.

    If there were a training video stickied at the top of the PVP forum saying "READ THIS BEFORE ASKING QUESTIONS", I think it would ameliorate a lot of problems.

    Besides, this isn't the first time this idea has been suggested. Cryptic hasn't yet acted on it, and IMO probably never will. So if Cryptic won't do it, it's up to the players to do it.
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    isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    room based/lobby based pvp would fix all of this. Sure it might create new problems but it would allow players to regulate other players. Something the queue system can't do. Or The queue system registers the highest gearscore a player has ever had and that is how it searches for matches. If the players geascore lowers it will take at least one week of that same gearscore before the registered gearscore changes. I like the lobby based system better though. As it allows for more organized fights and is easier to fight with/against your friends. Also the lobby leader is allowed to kick people and create a name for the lobby. The room leader can also implement the idea of a maximum gear registered to the game and use that to filter overly geared people. For instance if the gearscore threshold is 15k gearscore, no one above that gear score is allowed into the room. It would be effected because if the game as registered the highest gearscore someone has had without pets then he would not be able to take of gear to cheat the system.
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    morenthar wrote: »
    It's a solid idea and it certainly can't hurt. Still, the first step is separating pre-mades from pugs. I don't mind losing to a pre-made, but it's never with a group I can even be competitive with because real matchmaking does not exist.

    It's typically myself and if I'm lucky one other well-geared player who may or may not be good at PvP. :) So it usually ends in me trying to isolate a CW, once in awhile I kill them if they aren't on top of their potion guzzling. Most of the time the cavalry gets their in time to vaporize me.

    I'd like to see restrictions on potions as well, although I do believe it would be less of a problem if pre-mades were separated from PUGs. It's just not a big PUG thing to do.

    for me solo Q should be solo Q, not even duo-Q should be allowed
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    kittykaboomboomkittykaboomboom Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    from a non Pvp,

    yes
    1.A tutorial area. where you get to practice but don't actually affect your rating.

    2. an easy to find manual,with an easy to find symbol. IN champions the help manual is esc> help> game manual.

    2b. write it up as a proper point by point guide and see if you can get it stickied at the top of the forum.Advertise it, ingame.

    3. worst case, remove pts for taking part. all it does is encourage lack of team work and afks. except that penalises the people who are trying.
    3b. start keeping track of those kicking teammates to avoid a leaver penalty. The amount of complaints in zone recently about that is ridiculous. It gives the rest a bad name.

    4. get your own chat channel. Champions has one for PvP. They aren't hard to create. You can give people instructions direct about

    4b. Make sure moderators stomp hard on any whiners, bad losers and worse winners. The whiners in Icewind dale are not helping the view of Pvp people. Anyone who goes into an open world Pvp area and then complains about getting mass attacked needs a quick smack around the head. It's OPEN world, not a duel.

    5. yes I know they are all out of order. The any level gear is stupid. it needs to be at least sorted into 2k bands. except how do you stop people queuing in one set of gear then swapping.
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    alyaakhalyaakh Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I like this idea a lot. Sure, it's not a magical solution, but if it helps educate just a handful of newbies, it would have served it's purpose. Actually, I remember the exact same thing was required to queue into random arenas in a game I used to play (which had some of the most fun pvp of any game I've ever played).
    Простая Кавказская девушка я, Но все же прошу послушать меня, Скажу вам-довольно огня и войны, Ведь мы же Кавказцы-мы духом сильны!
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    overdriver13overdriver13 Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    This is a fairly old idea that has never been implemented, but to me it is easily the simplest and likely most effective solution to many of the problems concerning domination pvp. I have noticed in pugs that gs does not equal win, and quite often people will have really high gs and still lose. So knowing how to pvp is a great equalizer, though in the end the best geared, most skilled players will win. Though due to the nature of domination, high skill does trump better gear. You deal with a higher gs opponent the same way you deal with an op class: you get them to make mistakes.
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    ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    alyaakh wrote: »
    I like this idea a lot. Sure, it's not a magical solution, but if it helps educate just a handful of newbies, it would have served it's purpose. Actually, I remember the exact same thing was required to queue into random arenas in a game I used to play (which had some of the most fun pvp of any game I've ever played).

    Thanks for the feedback!
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


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