I'm a little curious on the math.
StormSpell usually come in at just over 40% of my damage (40 - 46%) If the StormSpell offhand feature gives a 2nd proc 5% of the time would that not come out to around a 2% overall Damage boost?
If you are running an average crit level of 50% (usually higher than that), would 5% crit severity not come out pretty close to 2%?
40-46% is indeed 2% to 2.3% dps increase.
if you have 50% crit with 175 crit severity (meaning base crit dmg), adding 5% crit severity is 0.05/2/1.75 = 0.014285714 dps increase or 1,42% dps increase.
Now, if you also factor your combat advantage damage and the likely higher crit severity, you'll lose more and more ground compared to the storm spell feature.
if you have 50% crit with 175 crit severity (meaning base crit dmg), adding 5% crit severity is 0.05/2/1.75 = 0.014285714 dps increase or 1,42% dps increase.
Now, if you also factor your combat advantage damage and the likely higher crit severity, you'll lose more and more ground compared to the storm spell feature.
I believe that math is off. You can't just divide by 2 because 1/2 of attacks are crits. Crits do a disproportionate amount of damage. If Crits and non-crits each accounted for 50% of my damage, then that math would be accurate. But they don't. The crits account for a much larger percentage of damage. If, say, 75% of my damage is from critical hits, then the math would be 0.05*0.75/1.75 = .0214, or a 2.14% DPS increase. Less if I have higher crit severity to begin with.
That has me curious now. I'll look at some logs on the next Tiamat.
Storm Spell is 100% crit, so thats 40%+ of damage without taking crit into account for other spells.
The crit dmg to non crit dmg on the last run came out to about 86.8% overal dmg from crit & 13.2% damage from non crit.
I believe that math is off. You can't just divide by 2 because 1/2 of attacks are crits. Crits do a disproportionate amount of damage. If Crits and non-crits each accounted for 50% of my damage, then that math would be accurate. But they don't. The crits account for a much larger percentage of damage. If, say, 75% of my damage is from critical hits, then the math would be 0.05*0.75/1.75 = .0214, or a 2.14% DPS increase. Less if I have higher crit severity to begin with.
It's not a matter of how much of crits are your damage, it's a matter of how often you get them.
If you have an attack that deals 100 damage and you crit for an extra 75% damage 50% of the time, then it means that on an infinite time, you'll average at 137,5 damage.
My math was actually wrong. Adding 5% severity makes it deal 80% extra damage 50% of the time, which makes it be an average of 140.
140/137,5 = 1,018181818. which mean a 1,8% dps increase.
It's not a matter of how much of crits are your damage, it's a matter of how often you get them.
If you have an attack that deals 100 damage and you crit for an extra 75% damage 50% of the time, then it means that on an infinite time, you'll average at 137,5 damage.
My math was actually wrong. Adding 5% severity makes it deal 80% extra damage 50% of the time, which makes it be an average of 140.
140/137,5 = 1,018181818. which mean a 1,8% dps increase.
That's still not accurate.
*Warning: this post is entirely theory-crafting math. If it doesn't interest you, don't read*
Let's do a hypothetical to make it more clear how the math works.
Let's say have 50% crits, and 175% crit severity. I do 4 attacks. 2 are crits, 2 are non-crits. The two crits are both Ice Knife hits that each hit for 100k. The two non-crits are at wills of Ray of Frost that hit for 500 each. So the total damage I've inflicted is 201,000, 200k from crits, 1k from non-crits. If I had increased my crit severity by 5% then the damage I would have done is (1.8/1.75)*200k +1000 = 206,714 damage. 206714/201000 = 1.028 or a 2.8% increase in damage. Now, using your math it would have inaccurately concluded that my DPS would only go up to 204,654.
Your math has the hidden assumption that all hits have equal probability of being either a crit or a non-crit. That is flatly not true. With EoTS I can control what spells are crits (like Daily's) and which ones are not likely to crit (at-wills). Also things like Storm Spell are 100% crits. The false assumption throws your math off.
How much extra damage someone will reap from increased crit severity can only be calculated when you know the damage contributions of crits and non-crits for that persons specific build.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited December 2014
Honestly, at the end of the day, each is a small bump in DPS, and given the inherent randomness to combat, 1-2% isn't going to be noticeable much at all.
*Warning: this post is entirely theory-crafting math. If it doesn't interest you, don't read*
Let's do a hypothetical to make it more clear how the math works.
Let's say have 50% crits, and 175% crit severity. I do 4 attacks. 2 are crits, 2 are non-crits. The two crits are both Ice Knife hits that each hit for 100k. The two non-crits are at wills of Ray of Frost that hit for 500 each. So the total damage I've inflicted is 201,000, 200k from crits, 1k from non-crits. If I had increased my crit severity by 5% then the damage I would have done is (1.8/1.75)*200k +1000 = 206,714 damage. 206714/201000 = 1.028 or a 2.8% increase in damage. Now, using your math it would have inaccurately concluded that my DPS would only go up to 204,654.
Your math has the hidden assumption that all hits have equal probability of being either a crit or a non-crit. That is flatly not true. With EoTS I can control what spells are crits (like Daily's) and which ones are not likely to crit (at-wills). Also things like Storm Spell are 100% crits. The false assumption throws your math off.
How much extra damage someone will reap from increased crit severity can only be calculated when you know the damage contributions of crits and non-crits for that persons specific build.
I'm fairly certain that storm spell aren't auto crits anymore.
And you don't have control on what crit and what doesn't except during the small window that is eots. If you end up waiting for your eots proc to cast your ice knife, you'll end up losing more damage than you'll gain unless you are able to fill your ap bar at nearly the same rate as your eots cooldown.
My math isn't wrong, it's your assumption that is. You can't take the best possible scenario and think this is how it will apply 100% of the time, it's just not how you do theorycrafting.
I'm fairly certain that storm spell aren't auto crits anymore.
And you don't have control on what crit and what doesn't except during the small window that is eots. If you end up waiting for your eots proc to cast your ice knife, you'll end up losing more damage than you'll gain unless you are able to fill your ap bar at nearly the same rate as your eots cooldown.
My math isn't wrong, it's your assumption that is. You can't take the best possible scenario and think this is how it will apply 100% of the time, it's just not how you do theorycrafting.
The "best possible scenario" was not meant to be realistic. It was simply to illustrate that your method of calculation is wrong--which it is. The correct math to predict how much of a dps increase 5% crit severity will give is:
((current crit severity +.05)/(current crit severity)*(DPS from crits)+(DPS from non-crits))/(current DPS)
Nowhere does crit % come into play. If you want to use crit % for a rough estimate it will get you in the ballpark. But it will err because of EotS and Storm Spell (I just checked a few Tiamat parses and 100% of Storm Spell damage were critical hits).
Also, it's a tangential argument but I think it's worth mentioning--I do save my Daily's for EoTS. Almost always. When using Oppressive Force, the damage difference between a critical hit and a non-critical hit is enormous. Not only because my crit severity is around 240% but also because of all of the Storm Spell procs that come with a crit that don't with a non-crit. With Ice Knife it's less obvious but I still think it's worth it. If Ice Knife has a base damage of 50k, then a crit for me will be worth 120k. If I have a base crit chance of 35% then my average damage while not on EoTS will be (50*.65+120*.35)= 74.5k. So 74.5/120 = 62%. Basically, holding on to Ice Knife will increase my damage 62%, on average. So the break-even point will be if I am increasing the gaps between my Ice Knives by 62%. Usually that's not the case. If I start out a fight with EotS and a Daily I can usually have a Daily ready on the next two EotS procs as well. It's only after that I'm unable to generate enough AP to have it ready in time for the 4th proc.
All in all I think most Spellstorm CW's will come out way ahead if they hold their Daily's for when EotS is active.
Some more information for anyone who is interested. I did this mainly for myself but perhaps others will find the information useful:
I pulled up a parse of a Tiamat fight last night. ACT reported that my crit rate was 59%. I took the data and copied it into excel and removed all of the kills and non-damage entries in the data. During the fight I had 3247 critical hits and 1770 non-critical hits for an actual crit rate of 64.7%. Critical hits accounted for 25.84 million damage. Non-critical hits accounted for 7.95 million damage. So crits accounted for 76.5% of my damage (a bit higher than my crit rate). So, increasing my crit severity up to 245% from 240% would increase my DPS 1.6%.
Also I did some testing of Storm Spell with the Artifact Off-hand feature enabled. It seems that Storm Spell proc rate goes up from 30% to 35% with the feature. It appears to be additive. I would appreciate some confirmation from another tester on this. In that same run Storm Spell did 10.67 million damage (31.6%). If I had equipped the Storm Spell feature during the run it would increase my dps (.35/.3-1)*10.67/33.792 = 5.26%
So, if the Storm Spell feature is indeed working as I suspect then it is far and away better than the extra 5% crit severity feature in terms of DPS added.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited December 2014
Abbadon, I was doing some tests on Preview to check out the new CP changes, and it looks like that is correct. However, my parses weren't quite long enough to definitively say yes, but the increase in proc rate was there.
At the very least, I could see anything that indicated it was a 5% change to create a "double hit" of Storm Spell. I'm pretty confident that is NOT the case, which leaves the other option of it adding to the proc rate as the answer.
Anyway, when I get back to my desktop this weekend, I'm going to parse some longer encounters with Tiamat (to also test the improvement in CP/CA in a live situation, not just dummies) and I'll double check some info on the Storm Spell feature.
It'll also be worth testing the 0.5% damage increase per stack of chill from the Chilling Presence artifact feature, too, if CP indeed because the new replacement EotS for Renegades.
It'll also be worth testing the 0.5% damage increase per stack of chill from the Chilling Presence artifact feature, too, if CP indeed because the new replacement EotS for Renegades.
This one is easy : that's a 3% damage increase against bosses, maybe 2,99% if considering the time needed to apply all 6 chill stacks.
EDIT : my bad, I forgot to take acount of the fact we only use 3/4 frost spells on bosses and storm spell damage.
Anyway, it can't get higher than 3%. So if with enough crit, Storm spell feature is 5% damage increase, Storm spell stays better.
If it's a 5% additive chance for storm spell to proc, then it's a 16,66666666666% dps increase to storm spell.
If storm spell was 40% of your damage, this means a 6,666666666% dps increase, which is gigantic.
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beatannierMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 692Arc User
If it's a 5% additive chance for storm spell to proc, then it's a 16,66666666666% dps increase to storm spell.
If storm spell was 40% of your damage, this means a 6,666666666% dps increase, which is gigantic.
5% for additional strike = 5% for 200% damage.
95% chance stays at 100% damage (as no additional strike).
5% * 200% + 95% * 100% = 105%.
It means, 5% additive chance for storm spell to proc, then it's a 5% dps increase to storm spell (not 16).
If storm spell was 40% of your damage, this means a 40% * 5% = 2% dps increase.
EotS
5% additional crit severity from EotS.
Assuming you have 40% crit chance (remember every 400 points = 1% in mod6), with EotS (7s (at rank 4 in mod6) every 20s = 35% uptime) gives you 35% (EotS up) + 40% * 65% (EotS down) = 35% + 26% = 61%
61% * 5% = 3.05% dps increase
CC
Additional 5% crit chance.
Assuming you have 100% crit severity and 70% damage comes from cold and arcane (remember Rimefire is cold), it gives us 5% * 100% * 70% = 3.5% dps increase.
SoD
Additional 10% damage from Smolder.
Assuming your Smolder deals 40% output damage, it gives 10% * 40% = 4% dps increase.
PS
Of course, all these dps increase values will be different on different builds/playstyles.
Anyway, these values looks very similiar so it`s not a big deal, but it`s always better to spend a few minutes on math and maximize our performance.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2015
The way it looks like this is working is that it gives you an extra 5% chance to get a Storm Spell proc on any damage.
When you don't have it as a class feature, your SS strikes are 100% critical hits. When you do have it as a feature, you start to see the non-critical SS hits pop up. I did a lot of parsing on this with the training dummies, and the non-critical strikes from Storm Spell seemed to hover at about 5%+/-1%, which leads me to believe this is what's happening.
If anyone wants to calculate the exact DPS increase based on that, please do. But overall, for my build, which doesn't use EoTS, but Storm Spell and Chilling Presence, I feel like the SS offhand feature is still the way to go.
Comments
40-46% is indeed 2% to 2.3% dps increase.
if you have 50% crit with 175 crit severity (meaning base crit dmg), adding 5% crit severity is 0.05/2/1.75 = 0.014285714 dps increase or 1,42% dps increase.
Now, if you also factor your combat advantage damage and the likely higher crit severity, you'll lose more and more ground compared to the storm spell feature.
Everything points to no but I could be wrong
I believe that math is off. You can't just divide by 2 because 1/2 of attacks are crits. Crits do a disproportionate amount of damage. If Crits and non-crits each accounted for 50% of my damage, then that math would be accurate. But they don't. The crits account for a much larger percentage of damage. If, say, 75% of my damage is from critical hits, then the math would be 0.05*0.75/1.75 = .0214, or a 2.14% DPS increase. Less if I have higher crit severity to begin with.
Storm Spell is 100% crit, so thats 40%+ of damage without taking crit into account for other spells.
The crit dmg to non crit dmg on the last run came out to about 86.8% overal dmg from crit & 13.2% damage from non crit.
It's not a matter of how much of crits are your damage, it's a matter of how often you get them.
If you have an attack that deals 100 damage and you crit for an extra 75% damage 50% of the time, then it means that on an infinite time, you'll average at 137,5 damage.
My math was actually wrong. Adding 5% severity makes it deal 80% extra damage 50% of the time, which makes it be an average of 140.
140/137,5 = 1,018181818. which mean a 1,8% dps increase.
That's still not accurate.
*Warning: this post is entirely theory-crafting math. If it doesn't interest you, don't read*
Let's do a hypothetical to make it more clear how the math works.
Let's say have 50% crits, and 175% crit severity. I do 4 attacks. 2 are crits, 2 are non-crits. The two crits are both Ice Knife hits that each hit for 100k. The two non-crits are at wills of Ray of Frost that hit for 500 each. So the total damage I've inflicted is 201,000, 200k from crits, 1k from non-crits. If I had increased my crit severity by 5% then the damage I would have done is (1.8/1.75)*200k +1000 = 206,714 damage. 206714/201000 = 1.028 or a 2.8% increase in damage. Now, using your math it would have inaccurately concluded that my DPS would only go up to 204,654.
Your math has the hidden assumption that all hits have equal probability of being either a crit or a non-crit. That is flatly not true. With EoTS I can control what spells are crits (like Daily's) and which ones are not likely to crit (at-wills). Also things like Storm Spell are 100% crits. The false assumption throws your math off.
How much extra damage someone will reap from increased crit severity can only be calculated when you know the damage contributions of crits and non-crits for that persons specific build.
I'm fairly certain that storm spell aren't auto crits anymore.
And you don't have control on what crit and what doesn't except during the small window that is eots. If you end up waiting for your eots proc to cast your ice knife, you'll end up losing more damage than you'll gain unless you are able to fill your ap bar at nearly the same rate as your eots cooldown.
My math isn't wrong, it's your assumption that is. You can't take the best possible scenario and think this is how it will apply 100% of the time, it's just not how you do theorycrafting.
The "best possible scenario" was not meant to be realistic. It was simply to illustrate that your method of calculation is wrong--which it is. The correct math to predict how much of a dps increase 5% crit severity will give is:
((current crit severity +.05)/(current crit severity)*(DPS from crits)+(DPS from non-crits))/(current DPS)
Nowhere does crit % come into play. If you want to use crit % for a rough estimate it will get you in the ballpark. But it will err because of EotS and Storm Spell (I just checked a few Tiamat parses and 100% of Storm Spell damage were critical hits).
Also, it's a tangential argument but I think it's worth mentioning--I do save my Daily's for EoTS. Almost always. When using Oppressive Force, the damage difference between a critical hit and a non-critical hit is enormous. Not only because my crit severity is around 240% but also because of all of the Storm Spell procs that come with a crit that don't with a non-crit. With Ice Knife it's less obvious but I still think it's worth it. If Ice Knife has a base damage of 50k, then a crit for me will be worth 120k. If I have a base crit chance of 35% then my average damage while not on EoTS will be (50*.65+120*.35)= 74.5k. So 74.5/120 = 62%. Basically, holding on to Ice Knife will increase my damage 62%, on average. So the break-even point will be if I am increasing the gaps between my Ice Knives by 62%. Usually that's not the case. If I start out a fight with EotS and a Daily I can usually have a Daily ready on the next two EotS procs as well. It's only after that I'm unable to generate enough AP to have it ready in time for the 4th proc.
All in all I think most Spellstorm CW's will come out way ahead if they hold their Daily's for when EotS is active.
I pulled up a parse of a Tiamat fight last night. ACT reported that my crit rate was 59%. I took the data and copied it into excel and removed all of the kills and non-damage entries in the data. During the fight I had 3247 critical hits and 1770 non-critical hits for an actual crit rate of 64.7%. Critical hits accounted for 25.84 million damage. Non-critical hits accounted for 7.95 million damage. So crits accounted for 76.5% of my damage (a bit higher than my crit rate). So, increasing my crit severity up to 245% from 240% would increase my DPS 1.6%.
Also I did some testing of Storm Spell with the Artifact Off-hand feature enabled. It seems that Storm Spell proc rate goes up from 30% to 35% with the feature. It appears to be additive. I would appreciate some confirmation from another tester on this. In that same run Storm Spell did 10.67 million damage (31.6%). If I had equipped the Storm Spell feature during the run it would increase my dps (.35/.3-1)*10.67/33.792 = 5.26%
So, if the Storm Spell feature is indeed working as I suspect then it is far and away better than the extra 5% crit severity feature in terms of DPS added.
At the very least, I could see anything that indicated it was a 5% change to create a "double hit" of Storm Spell. I'm pretty confident that is NOT the case, which leaves the other option of it adding to the proc rate as the answer.
Anyway, when I get back to my desktop this weekend, I'm going to parse some longer encounters with Tiamat (to also test the improvement in CP/CA in a live situation, not just dummies) and I'll double check some info on the Storm Spell feature.
It'll also be worth testing the 0.5% damage increase per stack of chill from the Chilling Presence artifact feature, too, if CP indeed because the new replacement EotS for Renegades.
This one is easy : that's a 3% damage increase against bosses, maybe 2,99% if considering the time needed to apply all 6 chill stacks.
EDIT : my bad, I forgot to take acount of the fact we only use 3/4 frost spells on bosses and storm spell damage.
Anyway, it can't get higher than 3%. So if with enough crit, Storm spell feature is 5% damage increase, Storm spell stays better.
If storm spell was 40% of your damage, this means a 6,666666666% dps increase, which is gigantic.
5% for additional strike = 5% for 200% damage.
95% chance stays at 100% damage (as no additional strike).
5% * 200% + 95% * 100% = 105%.
It means, 5% additive chance for storm spell to proc, then it's a 5% dps increase to storm spell (not 16).
If storm spell was 40% of your damage, this means a 40% * 5% = 2% dps increase.
EotS
5% additional crit severity from EotS.
Assuming you have 40% crit chance (remember every 400 points = 1% in mod6), with EotS (7s (at rank 4 in mod6) every 20s = 35% uptime) gives you 35% (EotS up) + 40% * 65% (EotS down) = 35% + 26% = 61%
61% * 5% = 3.05% dps increase
CC
Additional 5% crit chance.
Assuming you have 100% crit severity and 70% damage comes from cold and arcane (remember Rimefire is cold), it gives us 5% * 100% * 70% = 3.5% dps increase.
SoD
Additional 10% damage from Smolder.
Assuming your Smolder deals 40% output damage, it gives 10% * 40% = 4% dps increase.
PS
Of course, all these dps increase values will be different on different builds/playstyles.
Anyway, these values looks very similiar so it`s not a big deal, but it`s always better to spend a few minutes on math and maximize our performance.
When you don't have it as a class feature, your SS strikes are 100% critical hits. When you do have it as a feature, you start to see the non-critical SS hits pop up. I did a lot of parsing on this with the training dummies, and the non-critical strikes from Storm Spell seemed to hover at about 5%+/-1%, which leads me to believe this is what's happening.
If anyone wants to calculate the exact DPS increase based on that, please do. But overall, for my build, which doesn't use EoTS, but Storm Spell and Chilling Presence, I feel like the SS offhand feature is still the way to go.