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10man raids in module 5?
rashylewizz
Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
Are there any plans for 10man raids in the next module?
I think this game is seriously lacking in endgame right now hence the good players have all switched to PVP or are taking a long break from the game (or have quit completely).
I don't think most players enjoy doing tons of dailies and so far, dailies has been the theme of the first 4 modules.
Any plans for any type of endgame in the future that doesn't revolve around mindlessly attacking dragons and praying for RNG to drop something that isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>?
I think this game is seriously lacking in endgame right now hence the good players have all switched to PVP or are taking a long break from the game (or have quit completely).
I don't think most players enjoy doing tons of dailies and so far, dailies has been the theme of the first 4 modules.
Any plans for any type of endgame in the future that doesn't revolve around mindlessly attacking dragons and praying for RNG to drop something that isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>?
Post edited by rashylewizz on
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I have nothing against doing a few dailies (read: no more than 20-30 mins/day) to access/attune to the raids.
I do have everything against having to do dailies from 1-2-3 modules ago.
I don't quite understand why people are complaining about work that is completely optional and that they put completely on themselves.
With Mod4, you don't have to kill every dragon every day. You can kill only one dragon per day and make sufficient progress to eventually unlock all the content. If you CHOOSE to do more, that is your choice. Don't complain about optional work that you put on yourself.
I don't think you are alone in that sentiment
Good one lol.
length of raid doesnt have to = hardiness, Ive been in serveral 3 hour raids, that were just stupid boring, all so you could get to the end, they just chained 100 mob filled rooms to get there.
Frankly If they do raids here, I hope they dont make them that version.. no thanks, best raids Ive ever seen were under a hour honestly.
I have no wish to repeat the 8 hour marathons from eq days..
Please do not compare raids to the trash filler known as heroic encounters. Heroic encounters are a zergfest that anyone with an IQ over 20 can do. In fact, literally a bird could do them because the bird would fly away from the computer, AFK and still get the reward.
I meant raids that you can queue for that have challenging boss mechanics. Fairly similar to dungeon runs, except it involves more players, requires more coordination and of course, guarantees a BIS drop at the end.
Or they could try and be creative (doubtful, we'll probably get more trash dailies in mod 5) and have each party start on the different location in the raid map and have to fight their way through to a common area.
I don't think it would be the magic elixir your hoping for. When you start getting into crowded fights, the lag becomes an issue. Within a couple of days it would turn into a speedrun to the boss, just like the dungeons are now. As someone else mentioned, more people would be excluded for not having the right stats than would be allowed to run it. Would it still be exciting after the 10th, 20th, 50th run?
Now if it were designed so that if you died during the fight, you did not get any reward, that might add a sense of risk. Perhaps if there was someway of rewarding good tactics/strategy and or teamwork that might be something. I am not close minded to the idea, but you really need to flesh it out, before I could even think about supporting it.
But raids have been pretty much the endgame ive played. They took month-2 monthes to complete, but gear was handled diffrently. Plus in the f2p systems to clear it you pretty much had to pay to i shall not say or least half the raid did to successfully clear.
I agree its really something thatd have to be looked at very very carefully to be implemented in this game if at all.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Just trying to think how a boss or encounter would be designed to be challenging for 10 players without just adding boatloads of health/adds. Dragons are a good example of this, they are pretty tough for 4-6 players, but you start getting near the 10 man range and it just becomes a thing with health that everyone hits.
I would prefer to see some very well thought out 5 man additions instead.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Assuming, of course, that they could make challenging boss mechanics (as in, not a boss with more damage + health, but something requiring coordination and teamwork).
And why it should be 10 vs 1 dragon?, it could be 10 vs 2 dragons and some few but strong adds.
So the same thing as 5v1 dragon but with 2 groups?
Just becomes 10v1 dragon zerg for the first 3 minutes then 10v1 dragon zerg for the next 3 minutes.
I'm a bit skeptical...the natural result of creating 10 mans is exactly your logic of doubling everything. This only leads to LF8M CW instead of LF4M CW. They need to address the lack of challenging 5 man content before trying to think of ways to create challenging 10 man content.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Then make it 3 dragons, happy?.
lol'd hard.
But apparently, next nerf, stacking CW actually won't be beneficial. I hope so.
Part of what I like about Neverwinter though is the "pick up and go on your schedule" kind of thing it has going. What I mean is that I can log in whenever I want and form a group for whatever I want and be done in less than an hour or two depending on the difficulty of the content. Or I can just log in and do dailies if I feel like it. This game is very friendly to those who are restricted in the amount of time they can play (read: having a job). I am hoping that when/if raids are added they stay about as short as the dungeons are so that they don't take more than an hour or two to complete. I don't want a repeat of what I did in wow for so many years. What I did there was have a dedicated raid team in my guild that all logged on at a specific time and usually raided together for 4 to 6 hours a night 2 or 3 times a week. Sure it was a lot of fun (or I wouldn't have done it so long), but I really don't want to have to deal with those kinds of time restraints. Like I have to log on now and I can't go hang out with my friend who spontaneously wanted to meet or something, you know?
I think one good way they could change things up and make it a bit more challenging for existing 5 man content would be to go back to all of the end bosses of currently existing 5 man dungeons and change their mechanics. Make them more like valindra and Fulminorax instead of add fights. Give the bosses some unique mechanics. This wouldn't take that much development time I don't think, and it would change things up significantly for those people who have been playing since launch. Same but different!
For example, lets look at Mad Dragon. Currently he summons adds at certain percentages of health. Instead of summoning adds he could say, channel a spell that causes about a dozen pillars of poison to rise up in the room that would almost one shot you if you get hit by them. These pillars then move around the room randomly for a few seconds so you have to pay attention. Then back to normal dragon.
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I'll try to describe how a potential raid fight would look like:
Twin Golems Fight mechanics
- each golem require specific tanking. One golem deals physical damage that can be mitigated by G(W)F, one deals magical damage
- magical golem damage only be mitigated by a CW, with shield on Mastery, staying in an Astral Shield. Because AS is not permanently up, 2 DCs need to take care of the CW. Once every 30 seconds, the magical golem shoots a bolt that breaks the CW shield putting it on a 30 secs cooldown. Until cooldown is over, another CW needs to takes his place, with Shield on Mastery, inside the astral shield - until his shield breaks. This will require full time communication and coordination.
- about the same mechanic should be in place for physical golem, with a twist. The physical dmg. golem would have 2 phases: one that requires a GF with shield and KV to tank, and then he would switch to 2nd phase which would require a sentinel GWF.
- there should be no need to mention that any of the golems would one shot any healer/dps that would draw aggro from the tanks
Loot?
- tokens for a set of your choice, 3 set types/raid. A DC should be able to choose from a DPS set, a debuff set or a healing set for example. Bring token to vendor, get set piece.
- boss would ALWAYS drop a token for a random class and a BoE accessory, and some AD that is split by raid automatically. Something like 200K AD--->20K AD/kill/raid member
Fights should be hard and require good gear and good build. Even like this, a few days of wiping should be expected before a successful kill.
Raid should be on a 3 day lockout and contain about 9-12 bosses, so people would not run out of things to do.
Some complain that less geared/skilled people won't see the raid/get gear. There are 2 solutions:
- make ezy-mode raid version that can be pugged, with not-that-good loot
- GET GEARED AND SKILLED! and play the normal mode.
These are the same people who love those RNG zergfest heroic encounters that do not need much braincells to participate in wherein skill/effort does not matter and everyone just "haves fun" and the loot drop is pure RNG
I am suggesting raids with actual boss mechanics such as the ones in the recent epic skirmish and epic dungeon wherein not jumping out of the way will most likely lead to you being soulforged and then dead due to the DOT flames. Good boss mechanics will prevent and filter out unwanted player behaviors.
I disagree. I think this game needs something for the hardcore players to bite on. A lot of people do not stick around to this game because of that particular reason. Lots and lots of great guilds have died because of apathy towards the endgame. This game has tons of dailies and content for the casual/ "newb" player.
I think it is time to inject some life to the endgame because right now, there is still only 1 PVP mode and Castle Never is still the dungeon to go to if you don't want a pure RNG-infested experience in loot.
I choose to focus on high-end fun, with hard fights and guaranteed rewards.
The pugs can do skirmishes and dungeons and fight RNG all day long.
Now.
The raid should be accessible to ANYBODY. No GS limit. At all.
If you fail, tough luck. Try more, try harder, return with better setup, better players, better gear.
The raid itself will separate the weak from the strong - not me
BTW I never targeted you or assumed stuff about you. I never talked to you. I dunno who you are.
I targeted people (in general) that assumed stuff about a potential raid, while from their posts it can be seen they never stepped foot in a raid, ever, yet they think they know how a raid works.
magiquepurse's raid idea stands in contrast to the philosophical idea behind this game, at least as far as I understand it.
In magiquepurse's raid, there is one and only one way to complete this raid. You must have CW's with Shield, you must have healing-spec DC's, you must have a GF with KV, you must have a Sentinel GWF. Otherwise there is no possibility of success at all.
In the current game as it stands, any of the tough fights may be completed using a variety of different strategies. There is no one single strategy that is *absolutely* required. What this means is that lesser geared/skilled players may still be able to complete these tough fights - it may be harder to do, but still possible - and they therefore still have access to the same best gear.
Take the Valindra's Tower fight, for instance. In the final phase, players can either click on caskets, or not. EITHER WAY can potentially lead to success. No SPECIFIC class is required for this fight (although some are more helpful than others).
It's a real fundamental difference, I think.
So adding raids in the way that the hardcore raiders envision them would entail not just adding content, but a philosophical shift away from what this game currently offers. That is why I keep asking why you play this game if you seem to disagree with it on such a fundamental philosophical level.
So if we are going to have raids along the lines of magiquepurse's idea, I would ask, in keeping with the same philosophy as the other fights in this game, that specific classes not be *absolutely required* in order to complete the raid. Let there be a variety of different strategies that can potentially lead to success, with at least one that is accessible to a group that doesn't already have the tippy-top best gear. That way, everyone still has access to the best gear.
What they need to do INSTEAD of trying to develop new <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> fresh.
Take the current T1 dungeons, turn them into T3 dungeons (10 man versions). ALL the tilesets/etc are ALL done for you, BUT! What they can focus on then is NEW MECHANICS!
I like magiquepurse's idea.
I think things that SHOULD be in the game are:
Physical Immunity (can only be damaged by non physical attacks)
Magic Immunity (can only be damaged by Physical damage)
This would work well with your Golem idea, seeing that a GF/GWF would have a VERY hard time keeping agro on something they cant damage.
Control Immune mobs that hit REALLY hard - forcing a tank to focus his attention on this mob.
UN-tankable mobs - whose agro meter resets itself every couple seconds causing the need for tank/healers and DPS who pay attention.
Then for real BOSS mechanics:
Multiple "phases" each requiring its own strategy. Its been FOREVER since ive done T1s to even know what could be added/removed from bosses, but making it LESS about mob-killing and more about REAL mechanics.
Some of my favorites from other games are "windows" for damage and "windows" for damage avoidance. Meaning the Boss either is immune to damage OR has MASSIVE DR for a bit, while you play the mechanics of the boss, then a triggering event where the boss can be DPSd for a window.
Other mechanics are "you must perform some action" while avoiding damage or else mobs spawn which are hard to kill.
MC has SOME of the right idea here, Dragon AOEs the ground - causes massive damage, Portals spawn - requires DPS, She controls someone, again DPS race against their HP. So as an example, MC honestly has arguable one of the best boss fights to date, but could be ALOT better IMO.
What I would say to this, is I actually think its FUN when certain classes have certain abilities that make the encoutner easier.
Example is MC, when GWFs slam and CWs daily could interrupt the boss. What it lead to is players timing their dailies correctly during the fight. It required certain classes with certain abilities to make it EASIER. Could it be done without it? Sure! Buts its EASIER with some classes.
I think that is the fun way to play the game TBH. Also, when you PUSH players to require certain roles for the party it forces more people to invite more classes. When its not pushed, you see 3 CW groups because they can do it all.
I dont think certain abilities should be REQUIRED, but certain abilities should make it easier forsure!
Thanks for reading the details of the fight, appreciate it.
Not A FEW classes should be required, but basically ALL. This is one (incomplete) fight I described, because I have to make things short to not loose people's usually short attention span. But we would have more than one boss, and different bosses=different mechanics, with different needs. This type of mechanics are important, as you need to discover them the first time you run the fights.
As ayroux said above, other mechanics such as Control Immune mobs, mobs that need to be kited not tanked, mobs that reset aggro are also important. In a raid, even trash packs should be challenging.
Will this mean a shift in the makeup of the game?
No, definitely not. It would only mean there's an additional layer of challenges above the normal "we can pug it" dungeon. Something for the ones that feel they can take on something harder than the current content has to offer.
That means low GS players won't be able to do it?
While, probably yes. They are unable to even queue for epic LoL or Shores with below 13K GS right?
BUT. Not all raid bosses should be equally hard. The fist bosses should be way more accessible than the last boss. And they should drop gear that is helps in tackling the last challenge. So one can work up their way.
What about "it won't be able to be run by any comp"?
Well, it won't. Can you realistically run 5 DCs CN? It would take forever.
The conclusion on this is:
We need HARD content, so we can justify GOOD LOOT DROPS, while at the same time being an accomplishment to beat.
I am honestly tired of running the same small 15 mins thing for 200 times without anything significant dropping cause RNG hates me. We need less, better RNG. I understand some people like it - nothing will be taken away from you! You will still have your skirmishes and ezy dungeons.
Not only is this not true, it's insulting to the player base in general. Of all the posts in this thread, yours definitely wins the 'ignorant' prize.
Raids are fun for everyone, when their done right. Saying they will only be a zerg fest because that's how HE's have turned out is VERY assumptive.
You give the playerbase no credit, and you give Cryptic no credit, and instead assume that all pugs are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and Cryptic couldn't make a decent raid to save their hide. Did I miss anything?
10-mans, if the mechanics require coordination between all 10 players, will be a great boon to this game.
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