Guardian Fighter Feedback: Block Duration

shiikuu

The increased block duration makes the new block system usable, but the Buff was a little too much.

tested with some builds to see how long i could keep the block up, without running out of stamina


StaminaReg StrStaminaReg – Other guardMeter stamina drain reduction
build15,00%0,00%normal0,00%
build25,00%0,00%with shild talent 30,00%
build35,00%0,00%normal10,00% Shield Master 5
build45,00%0,00%with shild talent 310,00% Shield Master 5
build511,00%6,20%with shild talent 310,00% Shield Master 5
build611,00%6,20%with shild talent 30,00%


IR = Iron Warrior (cast before blocking)ready
SL = Shield Slam
ET = Enforced Thread (cast at 50% remaining)
IF = In to the Fray
all skills rang3
(recast) = Skill recasted when its on cooldown (19% CDR)


Guard Time: (in sec)No BuffsSLIRIR+SLETSL+ETIR+ETIR+SL+ST
build181212,51811171522IR+ET+IF+SL (all recast)= ∞
build21121172715292135 SL + IR(both recast) = ∞
build3915152213221830
build41448216120662780
build517∞24∞24∞32∞IR(recast) = 55
IR+ET (both recast) = ∞+
build61236184517482562SL + ET(recast) = ∞


in general its nice to be able to block forever, but this should only be possible,
when you are close to build5 and have to use Iron Guard + Enforced Thread to keep it up
and this should only regenerate enough stamina to negate the drain, at the moment both skills together will regenerate around 40% of you stamina while you keep guarding.

ripyourlipsoff

Interesting! 8-10 seconds should be the average for any spec, unless you are dedicated protector build. however to use encounters you had to lower guard so your numbers may be off.

jayrad8

shiikuu wrote: »

Awesome test data

It would be great if someone put together something like this for GWF too because just like perma-block, perma-sprint is also possible.

Moreover, GFs can now run at normal movement speed and are CC immune while perma-blocking, which I think is also too much.

qutsemnie

A drain rate that ramps up over time would at least force a GF to drop it occasionally. There are some toggable ults in moba's that work this way to force people to drop them in a way that scales to the whole game. In that context, the cost is mana, and the issue is that if you have an ult that is toggable on/off you don't want someone to get to end game gear and stack enough mana to have it on forever. To combat that they give it a progressive cost as it stays on (I am looking at you Swain). This means there is never a break point where someone gets to use it permanently. This new shift fhas all the characteristics of a powerful toggable ults from moba's (persistent CC immunity,persistent massive damage reduction--actually now that I think about it this would never be allowed to exist--but nevertheless the inspiration remains valid). I think the mechanic of progressively faster drain could help though.

The relevance here is you have to find a drain rate that makes sense for a stacker and makes sense for a non-stacker, and I am not sure it exist. By introducing a progress drain rate, you say to the stacker yes you will get more guard time, but only if you are willing to play the situation and drop guard strategically. You won't be able to sit in it.


For PvP yes it does mean that a GF would only have to drop to cooldown, but at least it means that nobody can have shields up forever and deny counter play. I would also consider giving GFs a longer cooldown on restarting their guard when PvPd flagged. Again because it is a suspiciously strong sounding shift ability, and the whole point of a progressive cost would be to force the GF to open up to counter play. In a lot of ways a perma-guard will be as ugly as a perma-stealth in PvP. I am not sure why anyone would design it that way. By using a progressive cost and a longer cool down on refreshing it when it drops, you create windows of counter play.

I guess some of this would depend on play testing, but I toss progressive cost and refresh cooldowns out there as a tool that has been used by other designers in similar situations.

An example would be:
1) Stamina drain rate doubles every 15 seconds of continuous guarding (discretely).

They don't have to be complex rules. Though the truth is even that "nerf" sounds generous to me A faster doubling time might be more appropriate, but I defer to the developer.

giuseppegranata

Do you tested using pvp gear (30% more stamina)?
It can make a huge difference in stamina duration.

iceshard2face

it's fine how it is to even get close to perma block you have to slot 2 encounters that are useless in pvp and 1 is only worth slotting in pve most wont have anywhere close to build 5 and your all forgetting we now take 20% damage through our block it would be diffrent if it was 100% dmg reduction and cc immune but it's not

you can still get behind us and cc us dmg us so i dont see why your all complaining when GWF can perma sprint around a map and be 100% cc immune then pop into unstoppable GF's need these buff to compete with other classes and FYI you forgot that enforced threat now hits 20 targets in pve so that extra block helps immensely

iceshard2face

qutsemnie wrote: »

For PvP yes it does mean that a GF would only have to drop to cooldown, but at least it means that nobody can have shields up forever and deny counter play. I would also consider giving GFs a longer cooldown on restarting their guard when PvPd flagged. Again because it is a suspiciously strong sounding shift ability, and the whole point of a progressive cost would be to force the GF to open up to counter play. In a lot of ways a perma-guard will be as ugly as a perma-stealth in PvP. I am not sure why anyone would design it that way. By using a progressive cost and a longer cool down on refreshing it when it drops, you create windows of counter play.

I guess some of this would depend on play testing, but I toss progressive cost and refresh cooldowns out there as a tool that has been used by other designers in similar situations..

it's not as good as you think it is get on test server and do some pvp against a guardian you will see it sounds good in theory but it doesnt actually work were still taking damage through our block it's not like we are 100% immune/invincible

qutsemnie

It is always best to defer to people actually testing, but what that added up to to me was that GFs dont need long cooldowns between refreshing guard because positional play constitutes counter play.

I did have one more comment for gentlmen though:
You have to future proof this skill.


Meaning if you have a flat drain rate, and someone goes and adds things that increase stamina regen in future modules what you get is things lurching very quickly toward way more sustain then you intended.

The reason is that if you think of a constant drain rate say (r) and you have a gain rate say (g), as g gets closer to r then smaller and smaller changes are required to double the amount of time that it takes to drain a pool, so builds closer to the break point will lurch more dramatically with mudflation than builds further from the break point.

Most of that effect can be sharply mitigated with progressive drain rates, so that you have some assurance that if in the future more items have stanima effects on them you don't have as much to worry about with your game system breaking.

daggon87

I don't get the problem with an eventual perma block. Other players will eventually learn how to get at the back of the GF, then hold or stun him and he will be ready to be eaten alive. All other classes have superior mobility.

mfgamesys

The fact is though we will be still taking damage and if you flank a gf you can get your attacks in. If the base stamina goes down any further this becomes a troublesome ability to use as then we will not be able to maintain block comparatively to the live block and thus end up in worse shape than what it is currently. So whats wrong if someone wants infinite block they wont have the ultimate defense with it as one the current movement is not WAI so the speed is going to be dropped and also in pve if 20 mobs attack you at the same time you need to keep it up for a substantial time as dps for some classes are being lowered.

Let us see in the next iteration of the test server as many bugs should have been worked out so let us see what the gf has in store now with proper block dr and movement in block.

zhaofuo

A GF perma blocking is no threat at all, only thing you can do is either shield slam or aggravating strike

ad FYI to the Author of this thread - a GF can't use any encounter nor daily while blocking and we also take damage while blocking.

have you seen a perma rouge they can use encounters - dailies and are most of the time immune to damage since they are stealth.

So i don't see any problem here

aethanas

zhaofuo wrote: »

A GF perma blocking is no threat at all, only thing you can do is either shield slam or aggravating strike

ad FYI to the Author of this thread - a GF can't use any encounter nor daily while blocking and we also take damage while blocking.

have you seen a perma rouge they can use encounters - dailies and are most of the time immune to damage since they are stealth.

So i don't see any problem here

That is the point; a Guardian Fighter is unable to block permanently but she is able to block for a long duration with Encounters which forces the Guardian to cancel the block altogether making it a "permanent" block with gaps in between -- not worth the word "permanent", huh?