Every nerf every class got over the years were all deserving. Nerfing problem areas simply revealed initial design flaws which were covered up by those OP problem areas.
So you can keep whining about wanting travel back in time, or you can ask the developers to continue with balancing and see it through, so the initial problems/design flaws are finally solved once and for good.
No what it REVEALED was that this was a PvE game you tried to Shoehorn into a PvP game when it was never designed for it.
MOBS have a million health, PLAYERS don't. and ALL the powers are designed to be... *shock* PvE powers...
So you screw over the PVE side with all this stuff, that CAUSES like ripples ALL of this stuff on the PvE side, like Rogues and HRs and all these other classes not being able to carry their own weight.
.... and you STILL haven't fixed a **** thing with all this stuff. You just made the game a hell of a lot more UNFUN for everyone else.
Didn't you ever stop to think... that if they'd never have bothered with the First Nerf, then EVERYONE would be doing the SAME things to each other in PvP.
Yeah maybe an Unkillable Cleric would be VERY KILLABLE, by an UNNERFED ROGUE or a CURRENT... GWF.... *shock*
GWFS would NOT be able to just steamroll a CW because... *shock* he'd never GET that far before he was CC'd....
THERE WOULD BE NO PERMA STEALTH ROGUES because they wouldn't need it anymore.... *shock*
If you'd NEVER have bothered in the FIRST PLACE... maybe things WOULD be balanced now...
Turning blind-eye to what mod2 was like? Totally unkillable DCs, as much unkillable GWFs?
well, pre-mod 3 i could easily kill any cleric on my own. it may take a min depending on if the cleric is 1 of those damage-immune spammers, but it was doable. problems only arose when there are 2 clerics or the enemy team wiped out my team b4 i killed the cleric. now, i can't even kill 1 decent cleric because my dps is non-existent outside of flurry/lashing
even gwf's were easily countered by the damage we rogues had. lashing blade + 3 impacts puts a huge dent in their hp back then and i actually had a chance to win 1 vs 1 against them without using a daily. now they simply out-heal whatever damage i do to them while i die in 1-2 rotations.
And prior to the damage nerf, it was a one-shot build. It was just asking for nerfs, and deserved it in every meaning of the word. The problem us TRs face is not about the damage. It's about the flimsy combat design which was covered up by blatantly OP amount of damage.
thing is, by design we are "supposed" to pretty much kill people in seconds. we are not meant for long drawn-out fights and the deflect-combat and perma-stealth builds were a countermeasure for when we did lose our damage.
when you compare rogues to the gods that gwf's are, any non-perma build is just.....pointless and i hate perma >.>
there are only 3 choices to deal with this:
return of the 1-shots
become so mobile that nobody can run or dodge us forever with attack speeds on encounters/at-wills that rivals gwf's
all dps encounters have their cooldowns cut in half with no damage penalties to constantly apply as much pressure as we are dodged.
0
hexanna22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 204Bounty Hunter
edited June 2014
I think that whatever Dev is in charge of GWF changes, used to play a Barbarian in DDO, and was completely dependent on heals from others
All joking aside...My PVP notes:
Sure leave them how they are,
BUT
1_Allow other classes to get on their mounts in pvp faster.
When pugging a closer match, often times losses come from just not being able to get to outer nodes as fast as the GWF, and the matchmaking system gave my Team 0 GWF, and the other team 2 GWF, I could sway the match on my cw or DC when the TRs in group don't contest nodes, if I could get there just as fast, or I could psossibly sway the match if I could mount faster and we just were given a match where we are all slow non stealth pugs.
2-IF people decide that they are going to que with 3+GWF, then only match them with other groups who are quing with 3 GWF. OR maybe a full pre made that has at least 1 GWF...
Yes, I've beaten many 3 GWF and even 4 and 5 GWF teams...but its usually a LONG like 45 mins- 1 hr long match--its really not that fun, and even less fun in a pug...where most people just quit in 2 mins against a team like this and don't even try. This experience has got to be horrible for the non elite pug players.
And they obviously que that way to pug stomp, which they mostly do...so let then be challenged by going against an equally matched team.
When setting up pres, often times we will go with the same amount of GWFs on each team...there is a reason that we do this, and cryptic should take note.
P.S> I would take the Shocking Execution bug over the current GWF flavor anyday...The TR couldnt prone chain me if I was caught...
I started a GWF the other day so that I can get the artifact. My experience with playing one has been close to shocking. I feel as if I am playing a single player game made for a lone hero and set to the easiest setting.
I am only 45 with it so I haven't seen everything but so far it has been overblown easy and I am using whatever gear I pick up along the way (sometimes not even bothering to change it till much later on). I died once and it was at level 37. I wasn't paying attention and was a bit surprised that I died. I still had the low level heal pots and I didn't even have a companion up so after correcting that it hasn't come close to happening again. Any "non elite" mobs usually die to front line surge and the few times they don't a blast of roar finishes off any that made it past the FLS. So with two encounters I can pretty much handle most traffic, but of course I have to use at wills on elites or when I deliberately pull 10 or 20 mobs to try to make it interesting (helps a little I guess). I play reckless and without worry and I sing in my head the song "Blow up the outside world" -- you know "Nothing seems to kill me no matter how hard I try...".
Now granted I remember the content so that gives me an edge and there is the possibility that the class suits my play style more than others but I can't help but feel like I am cheating the whole time playing this class so far.
Nope. Roar is the only thing broken right now for GWFs, but otherwise I feel they're fine. It's the other classes that are in dire need of buffing. CW's, DC's and GF's feel very empty and have very limited interactions with their Class Mechanics.
It would be great if CWs could get more effects by placing spells in their Spell Mastery slot such as Control Spells placed in the Spell Mastery slot will ignore CC immunity. GFs can have something like Hard Taunt that also works in PVP, where they have a Taunt Meter that debuffs the opponent with an effect where they will deal reduced damage to the GFs allies as long as they have Taunt on them. A fully discharged Taunt Meter against an opponent will debuff him with a -100% damage to the GFs allies. This will be useful for both PVP and PVE, as it will allow the GF to single out select targets that are in need of singling out.
For DCs, however, not entirely sure as to how it's possible to improve such an empty and linear class.
I think GWFs are perfect as they are right now. It's the other classes that need adjustements. And it's PVP that needs to be adjusted via Tenacity tweaks.
To play a GWF in PVE is fun, lots of fun. Taking that fun away by nerfing the class would be the wrong way of handling things. One of the devs said that the GWF is were they want him to be (damage wise). So there's hope that any balancing will be done by buffing other classes.
I think GWFs are perfect as they are right now. It's the other classes that need adjustements. And it's PVP that needs to be adjusted via Tenacity tweaks.
To play a GWF in PVE is fun, lots of fun. Taking that fun away by nerfing the class would be the wrong way of handling things. One of the devs said that the GWF is were they want him to be (damage wise). So there's hope that any balancing will be done by buffing other classes.
The "fun" in your statement equates to the sort of "fun" munchkins seek in TRPG. Sure. It's fun. Why would it not be fun being a medieval-fantasy version of the incredible HULK™, the invulnerable, invincible metal-clad lump of a meat swinging a big-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sword and sweeping over mobs as if they were marshmallows?
But is that sort of "fun" desirable in a team-coop environment? That's something to think about -- especially when the very existence of one invincible class just makes obsolete all the other classes.
(ps) the developers just might as well give everyone who enters any dungeon free loot, if they -- heaven forbid -- decide to actually buff up all the other classes to be on par with the GWF. When there is a nail sticking out, you don't pull out all the other nails. You hammer it back in. That's balance.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I started a GWF the other day so that I can get the artifact. My experience with playing one has been close to shocking. I feel as if I am playing a single player game made for a lone hero and set to the easiest setting.
I am only 45 with it so I haven't seen everything but so far it has been overblown easy and I am using whatever gear I pick up along the way (sometimes not even bothering to change it till much later on). I died once and it was at level 37. I wasn't paying attention and was a bit surprised that I died. I still had the low level heal pots and I didn't even have a companion up so after correcting that it hasn't come close to happening again. Any "non elite" mobs usually die to front line surge and the few times they don't a blast of roar finishes off any that made it past the FLS. So with two encounters I can pretty much handle most traffic, but of course I have to use at wills on elites or when I deliberately pull 10 or 20 mobs to try to make it interesting (helps a little I guess). I play reckless and without worry and I sing in my head the song "Blow up the outside world" -- you know "Nothing seems to kill me no matter how hard I try...".
Now granted I remember the content so that gives me an edge and there is the possibility that the class suits my play style more than others but I can't help but feel like I am cheating the whole time playing this class so far.
People who have been on a GWF since day 1 can tell the real story. There was a time when leveling a GWF from lvl 1 up was tedious, hard and involved a ton of HP potions. No fun at all. Then of course the time when nobody invited us in elite dungeons... time passed by and many patches later we are at this point where GWFs are just strong ( as they should be ).
However everyone needs to shut up and think before speaking again. Its not just any GWF that is annihilating you in PVP , its not just any GWF topping scoreboards in PVE elite dungeons. The GWFs who do these things are super geared. I know what it was to PVP PuG as a 12k GWF and what is now to PVP PuG as 17K GWF and lemme tell you the difference is night and day. So, people please do consider the time/money invested into a certain player character before proclaiming how a class as a whole is OP. My own Destroyer who is 17.2 in IWD open PVP was ambushed and finished by a CW just a few weeks ago - one on one.
Next time when you PVP pug keep in mind that you may end up vs people who outgear you by thousands. These people will kill you and kill you fast. My 15K GF can 2 shot ( you read that right - 2 shot ) a lower GS GWF.
Just use your heads dammit
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
It would be great if CWs could get more effects by placing spells in their Spell Mastery slot such as Control Spells placed in the Spell Mastery slot will ignore CC immunity. GFs can have something like Hard Taunt that also works in PVP, where they have a Taunt Meter that debuffs the opponent with an effect where they will deal reduced damage to the GFs allies as long as they have Taunt on them. A fully discharged Taunt Meter against an opponent will debuff him with a -100% damage to the GFs allies. This will be useful for both PVP and PVE, as it will allow the GF to single out select targets that are in need of singling out.
Like these ideas. Dont buff damage for CWs, just control. Have already suggested what I believe could be changes to GWF on page 1 and these changes should not reduce GWF damage in PvE. GFs and DCs need to be reworked with their roles in mind. TRs may need some help from a PvE perspective. From PvP perspective, if TRs are given a damage buff, they need to add further mechanics to ensure a TR loses stealth when it attacks.
GWFs (with minute nerfs as suggested) and HRs should be the baseline to adjust remaining classes..not in terms of flat damage, but in terms of usefulness in PvP and PvE.
Also, for people that compare GS, I see people reminding you that GS isn't giving a complete picture all the time. And yet it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Don't forget that there are other factors called weapon enchants and armor enchants. A player with a good or perfect weapon enchant can shred through your defenses.
Also GS can be bloated. You need to have the right stat distribution to do the optimal amount of damage and to receive good survivability. Trust me, I know, my stats on a couple of toons are broken and you see pronounced effects from such bad stats.
Nope. Roar is the only thing broken right now for GWFs, but otherwise I feel they're fine. It's the other classes that are in dire need of buffing. CW's, DC's and GF's feel very empty and have very limited interactions with their Class Mechanics.
It would be great if CWs could get more effects by placing spells in their Spell Mastery slot such as Control Spells placed in the Spell Mastery slot will ignore CC immunity. GFs can have something like Hard Taunt that also works in PVP, where they have a Taunt Meter that debuffs the opponent with an effect where they will deal reduced damage to the GFs allies as long as they have Taunt on them. A fully discharged Taunt Meter against an opponent will debuff him with a -100% damage to the GFs allies. This will be useful for both PVP and PVE, as it will allow the GF to single out select targets that are in need of singling out.
For DCs, however, not entirely sure as to how it's possible to improve such an empty and linear class.
You seriously don't think the following is a bit ridiculous?
Destroyers Purpose stacking super fast even from dots?
Determination building so fast GWF can hit unstoppable every 30 seconds? ( We have less powerful Artifacts that have a min CD of 140-180 seconds, but an ability to gain 5 buffs all at once is not regulated? )
IBS hitting for 25,000-30,000 damage?
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I think GWFs are perfect as they are right now. It's the other classes that need adjustements. And it's PVP that needs to be adjusted via Tenacity tweaks.
To play a GWF in PVE is fun, lots of fun. Taking that fun away by nerfing the class would be the wrong way of handling things. One of the devs said that the GWF is were they want him to be (damage wise). So there's hope that any balancing will be done by buffing other classes.
Playing GWF is fun because the class is broken! Thats like playing your favorite Playstation game and entering Game Shark codes for all Weapons and Extra lives and saying much more fun now....
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Playing GWF is fun because the class is broken! Thats like playing your favorite Playstation game and entering Game Shark codes for all Weapons and Extra lives and saying much more fun now....
Your signature says what needs to be said. Apart from minor changes, GWFs are where they should be. the moment you give a class a berserk Tab feature-Unstoppable, the intentions are that the player playing this class is capable of going berserk with it. Making Unstoppable Stoppable defeats the purpose. The problem is not in how quickly GWFs can gain determination. DCs can gain divinity pretty darn fast (at a comparable or faster rate). The only problem is the extent of damage resistance that Destroyer GWFs can get from going Unstoppable, which should only be available to Sentinels (or maybe Instigators as well) when feated..considering how often Destroyers can go Unstoppable. But asking for a nerf in damage when the Deep gash bug (which was the starting point of all this QQ) has already been fixed seems ridiculous.
Roar needs a fix.
Damage resistance needs a 5-10% reduction on unstoppable.
CD reduction for Takedown and Roar needs to be looked into. Either that or Tenacity based caps on chain CCs.
The rest..I am just seeing a whine thread with the future of turning into a flame war and subsequently closed.
Please try to keep your suggestions constructive or try to back them up with valid points other than "I got owned by XYZ class..or XYZ class outdamages me in PvE. Please nerf".
Your signature says what needs to be said. Apart from minor changes, GWFs are where they should be. the moment you give a class a berserk Tab feature-Unstoppable, the intentions are that the player playing this class is capable of going berserk with it. Making Unstoppable Stoppable defeats the purpose. The problem is not in how quickly GWFs can gain determination. DCs can gain divinity pretty darn fast (at a comparable or faster rate). The only problem is the extent of damage resistance that Destroyer GWFs can get from going Unstoppable, which should only be available to Sentinels (or maybe Instigators as well) when feated..considering how often Destroyers can go Unstoppable. But asking for a nerf in damage when the Deep gash bug (which was the starting point of all this QQ) has already been fixed seems ridiculous.
Roar needs a fix.
Damage resistance needs a 5-10% reduction on unstoppable.
CD reduction for Takedown and Roar needs to be looked into. Either that or Tenacity based caps on chain CCs.
The rest..I am just seeing a whine thread with the future of turning into a flame war and subsequently closed.
Please try to keep your suggestions constructive or try to back them up with valid points other than "I got owned by XYZ class..or XYZ class outdamages me in PvE. Please nerf".
Unstoppable needs to be used in a tactful manner, right now it gives WAY to many bonuses and is spammable!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
I really can't understand how you can defend the gwf status quo.
It is so clearly OP, that is the definition of OP. And you still want cryptic to change ALL other classes to match your level.
And what difference does it make if they tone you down(the easy path) instead of giving everyone the same mitigation, cc resistance and what not to survive your attack?!? Toning you down will allow cryptic to keep some class diversity.
Don't you ask yourself why there are players even amid you who think you are OP?
Or why so many people are saying that you are OP?
I really can't understand how you can defend the gwf status quo.
It is so clearly OP, that is the definition of OP. And you still want cryptic to change ALL other classes to match your level.
And what difference does it make if they tone you down(the easy path) instead of giving everyone the same mitigation, cc resistance and what not to survive your attack?!? Toning you down will allow cryptic to keep some class diversity.
Don't you ask yourself why there are players even amid you who think you are OP?
Or why so many people are saying that you are OP?
A 10-14K GWF with every ability and the class mechanic at his disposal is not OP be it PVE or PVP... a GWF with 17K+ is a different story but any player who gets his toon ( regardless of class ) to 16/17/18 can do things considered OP
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
FWIW, the devs have already said they're looking into both classes.
Really? That one escaped my attention. I was only aware that they wanted to look into the GF and CW classes. They said the GWF class is were they want it to be.
I really can't understand how you can defend the gwf status quo.
It is so clearly OP, that is the definition of OP. And you still want cryptic to change ALL other classes to match your level.
And what difference does it make if they tone you down(the easy path) instead of giving everyone the same mitigation, cc resistance and what not to survive your attack?!? Toning you down will allow cryptic to keep some class diversity.
Don't you ask yourself why there are players even amid you who think you are OP?
Or why so many people are saying that you are OP?
Are you talking purely from a PvP perspective? And from a damage dealt perspective?
Because in PvE, well geared GWFs can still be outdamaged by equally geared CWs and HRs (who know how to play this class well. I have noticed that GS isn't directly proportional to damage as compared to skill while playing HRs). If you are talking about survivability, due to the fact that they can step on red circles- Umm, yeah, they are meant to as an Off Tank. CWs have a great teleport skill and HRs have decent dodges (albeit, I hear they may be bugged and tend to rubberband) and considering they are both ranged, they do not need to stay in the red to keep attacking their targets. GWFs have to stay close to the target, often in the red to be offering any dps. And lifesteal is a problem not limited to GWFs, it is shared with CWs and HRs or any class that can hit fast and hard enough. So bottomline, the class GWF is not OP in PvE.
PvP- Problem right now isn't OP in terms of damage dealt. The IBS change was intentional and is working as expected. I am not sure if any GWF would prefer rolling with three stun/interrupt/prone skills in their hotbars. Usually they are limited to two (with a short cooldown). Anyone using three will not be able to kill as quick enough, you need IBS for the kill strikes. So the problem here, right now, is Roar bug and prone/interrupt/stun chains, which need to be capped at the tenacity end of things.
The "fun" in your statement equates to the sort of "fun" munchkins seek in TRPG. Sure. It's fun. Why would it not be fun being a medieval-fantasy version of the incredible HULK™, the invulnerable, invincible metal-clad lump of a meat swinging a big-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sword and sweeping over mobs as if they were marshmallows?
But is that sort of "fun" desirable in a team-coop environment? That's something to think about -- especially when the very existence of one invincible class just makes obsolete all the other classes.
(ps) the developers just might as well give everyone who enters any dungeon free loot, if they -- heaven forbid -- decide to actually buff up all the other classes to be on par with the GWF. When there is a nail sticking out, you don't pull out all the other nails. You hammer it back in. That's balance.
GWFs are not invulnerable. My toon can easily die to monsters in Icewind Dale. Regarding damage my experience is that CWs are capable of doing way more damage in PvE. That's due to the fact that they have hard hitting area powers. The GWF does not.
In the end the devs decide which class is too powerful and which isn't.
GWFs are not invulnerable. My toon can easily die to monsters in Icewind Dale. Regarding damage my experience is that CWs are capable of doing way more damage in PvE. That's due to the fact that they have hard hitting area powers. The GWF does not.
In the end the devs decide which class is too powerful and which isn't.
This thread is purely about Rebalancing GWF for PVP everyone dies to monsters!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
GWFs are not invulnerable. My toon can easily die to monsters in Icewind Dale. Regarding damage my experience is that CWs are capable of doing way more damage in PvE. That's due to the fact that they have hard hitting area powers. The GWF does not.
In the end the devs decide which class is too powerful and which isn't.
Actually I'm all for toning down even cw damage. If you are a controller, you can't do that kind of damage.
But that should be applied to gwf too. You can't chain prone and hit for 10k every hit. I think that if you use control skills you should do way less damage.
A 10-14K GWF with every ability and the class mechanic at his disposal is not OP be it PVE or PVP... a GWF with 17K+ is a different story but any player who gets his toon ( regardless of class ) to 16/17/18 can do things considered OP
I agree that sometimes may be the case, but denying that the GWF has the greatest tool set in the game for whatever situation may arise, and a boat load of front loaded massive burst coupled with crazy survivability cannot be over looked!
A 14k GWF will not be as invincible but will still roll over 2-3 other 14k GS players!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Actually I'm all for toning down even cw damage. If you are a controller, you can't do that kind of damage.
But that should be applied to gwf too. You can't chain prone and hit for 10k every hit. I think that if you use control skills you should do way less damage.
From my understanding.
GWF is a dps class. CW is a controller class.
So now can GWF retain the dps? Nerf its prone cycles. Not its dps.
From my understanding.
GWF is a dps class. CW is a controller class.
So now can GWF retain the dps? Nerf its prone cycles. Not its dps.
Fair enough. If they increase my heals. If not I'm dead anyway
Look, I don't ask too much. I don't want to win against a gwf. I know I shouldn't be able to kill one. But I'd like to keep me alive for some time with my own heals. And then I can die, knowing I have played my part, that is healing other
Clearly the gwf should be reworked. He loses hands down to any other class in 1v1. The only gwfs who are somehow successful are actually GFs in disguise.Gwf per se, the SM one, clearly needs buffs. With the healing depression, the gwf lost his only way to keep some sustain, and with the tenacity affected as well two of his major features, the Unstoppable and the Crit. Bar the DC, no class got nerfed so much with mod3.
0
psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
GWF whine thread #1275 by people who go into PvP in blue gear.
Ehm, I have full r9/r10, 3 legendary artifact (and I had 3 more legendary), full profound, 1200+ tenacity, 40% defence, have or had every perfect this game has to offer.
What more do I need to survive?
GWF whine thread #1275 by people who go into PvP in blue gear.
I m not going to argue thats happens, I assure you I do not have blue gear! And I also have almost 49% Damage Resistance and am hit for 10k-16k continuously by GWFs.
Maybe you should not play your GWF for a couple days so you too can see for yourself?
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The first role in the list of roles is the primary role. rest are possible secondary roles. Allow me to clarify that I was speaking purely from perspective of main roles.
And GF having main role as Leader and secondary role as tank? Any reference that you can quote for this?
CW having dps as primary and controller as secondary? You could argue that dps is a form of control (argued numerous times on the forums) but then mentioning both seems redundant.
Comments
No what it REVEALED was that this was a PvE game you tried to Shoehorn into a PvP game when it was never designed for it.
MOBS have a million health, PLAYERS don't. and ALL the powers are designed to be... *shock* PvE powers...
So you screw over the PVE side with all this stuff, that CAUSES like ripples ALL of this stuff on the PvE side, like Rogues and HRs and all these other classes not being able to carry their own weight.
.... and you STILL haven't fixed a **** thing with all this stuff. You just made the game a hell of a lot more UNFUN for everyone else.
Didn't you ever stop to think... that if they'd never have bothered with the First Nerf, then EVERYONE would be doing the SAME things to each other in PvP.
Yeah maybe an Unkillable Cleric would be VERY KILLABLE, by an UNNERFED ROGUE or a CURRENT... GWF.... *shock*
GWFS would NOT be able to just steamroll a CW because... *shock* he'd never GET that far before he was CC'd....
THERE WOULD BE NO PERMA STEALTH ROGUES because they wouldn't need it anymore.... *shock*
If you'd NEVER have bothered in the FIRST PLACE... maybe things WOULD be balanced now...
even gwf's were easily countered by the damage we rogues had. lashing blade + 3 impacts puts a huge dent in their hp back then and i actually had a chance to win 1 vs 1 against them without using a daily. now they simply out-heal whatever damage i do to them while i die in 1-2 rotations.
thing is, by design we are "supposed" to pretty much kill people in seconds. we are not meant for long drawn-out fights and the deflect-combat and perma-stealth builds were a countermeasure for when we did lose our damage.
when you compare rogues to the gods that gwf's are, any non-perma build is just.....pointless and i hate perma >.>
there are only 3 choices to deal with this:
All joking aside...My PVP notes:
Sure leave them how they are,
BUT
1_Allow other classes to get on their mounts in pvp faster.
When pugging a closer match, often times losses come from just not being able to get to outer nodes as fast as the GWF, and the matchmaking system gave my Team 0 GWF, and the other team 2 GWF, I could sway the match on my cw or DC when the TRs in group don't contest nodes, if I could get there just as fast, or I could psossibly sway the match if I could mount faster and we just were given a match where we are all slow non stealth pugs.
2-IF people decide that they are going to que with 3+GWF, then only match them with other groups who are quing with 3 GWF. OR maybe a full pre made that has at least 1 GWF...
Yes, I've beaten many 3 GWF and even 4 and 5 GWF teams...but its usually a LONG like 45 mins- 1 hr long match--its really not that fun, and even less fun in a pug...where most people just quit in 2 mins against a team like this and don't even try. This experience has got to be horrible for the non elite pug players.
And they obviously que that way to pug stomp, which they mostly do...so let then be challenged by going against an equally matched team.
When setting up pres, often times we will go with the same amount of GWFs on each team...there is a reason that we do this, and cryptic should take note.
P.S> I would take the Shocking Execution bug over the current GWF flavor anyday...The TR couldnt prone chain me if I was caught...
I am only 45 with it so I haven't seen everything but so far it has been overblown easy and I am using whatever gear I pick up along the way (sometimes not even bothering to change it till much later on). I died once and it was at level 37. I wasn't paying attention and was a bit surprised that I died. I still had the low level heal pots and I didn't even have a companion up so after correcting that it hasn't come close to happening again. Any "non elite" mobs usually die to front line surge and the few times they don't a blast of roar finishes off any that made it past the FLS. So with two encounters I can pretty much handle most traffic, but of course I have to use at wills on elites or when I deliberately pull 10 or 20 mobs to try to make it interesting (helps a little I guess). I play reckless and without worry and I sing in my head the song "Blow up the outside world" -- you know "Nothing seems to kill me no matter how hard I try...".
Now granted I remember the content so that gives me an edge and there is the possibility that the class suits my play style more than others but I can't help but feel like I am cheating the whole time playing this class so far.
It would be great if CWs could get more effects by placing spells in their Spell Mastery slot such as Control Spells placed in the Spell Mastery slot will ignore CC immunity. GFs can have something like Hard Taunt that also works in PVP, where they have a Taunt Meter that debuffs the opponent with an effect where they will deal reduced damage to the GFs allies as long as they have Taunt on them. A fully discharged Taunt Meter against an opponent will debuff him with a -100% damage to the GFs allies. This will be useful for both PVP and PVE, as it will allow the GF to single out select targets that are in need of singling out.
For DCs, however, not entirely sure as to how it's possible to improve such an empty and linear class.
To play a GWF in PVE is fun, lots of fun. Taking that fun away by nerfing the class would be the wrong way of handling things. One of the devs said that the GWF is were they want him to be (damage wise). So there's hope that any balancing will be done by buffing other classes.
The "fun" in your statement equates to the sort of "fun" munchkins seek in TRPG. Sure. It's fun. Why would it not be fun being a medieval-fantasy version of the incredible HULK™, the invulnerable, invincible metal-clad lump of a meat swinging a big-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sword and sweeping over mobs as if they were marshmallows?
But is that sort of "fun" desirable in a team-coop environment? That's something to think about -- especially when the very existence of one invincible class just makes obsolete all the other classes.
(ps) the developers just might as well give everyone who enters any dungeon free loot, if they -- heaven forbid -- decide to actually buff up all the other classes to be on par with the GWF. When there is a nail sticking out, you don't pull out all the other nails. You hammer it back in. That's balance.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
People who have been on a GWF since day 1 can tell the real story. There was a time when leveling a GWF from lvl 1 up was tedious, hard and involved a ton of HP potions. No fun at all. Then of course the time when nobody invited us in elite dungeons... time passed by and many patches later we are at this point where GWFs are just strong ( as they should be ).
However everyone needs to shut up and think before speaking again. Its not just any GWF that is annihilating you in PVP , its not just any GWF topping scoreboards in PVE elite dungeons. The GWFs who do these things are super geared. I know what it was to PVP PuG as a 12k GWF and what is now to PVP PuG as 17K GWF and lemme tell you the difference is night and day. So, people please do consider the time/money invested into a certain player character before proclaiming how a class as a whole is OP. My own Destroyer who is 17.2 in IWD open PVP was ambushed and finished by a CW just a few weeks ago - one on one.
Next time when you PVP pug keep in mind that you may end up vs people who outgear you by thousands. These people will kill you and kill you fast. My 15K GF can 2 shot ( you read that right - 2 shot ) a lower GS GWF.
Just use your heads dammit
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Like these ideas. Dont buff damage for CWs, just control. Have already suggested what I believe could be changes to GWF on page 1 and these changes should not reduce GWF damage in PvE. GFs and DCs need to be reworked with their roles in mind. TRs may need some help from a PvE perspective. From PvP perspective, if TRs are given a damage buff, they need to add further mechanics to ensure a TR loses stealth when it attacks.
GWFs (with minute nerfs as suggested) and HRs should be the baseline to adjust remaining classes..not in terms of flat damage, but in terms of usefulness in PvP and PvE.
Also GS can be bloated. You need to have the right stat distribution to do the optimal amount of damage and to receive good survivability. Trust me, I know, my stats on a couple of toons are broken and you see pronounced effects from such bad stats.
You seriously don't think the following is a bit ridiculous?
Destroyers Purpose stacking super fast even from dots?
Determination building so fast GWF can hit unstoppable every 30 seconds? ( We have less powerful Artifacts that have a min CD of 140-180 seconds, but an ability to gain 5 buffs all at once is not regulated? )
IBS hitting for 25,000-30,000 damage?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Playing GWF is fun because the class is broken! Thats like playing your favorite Playstation game and entering Game Shark codes for all Weapons and Extra lives and saying much more fun now....
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Your signature says what needs to be said. Apart from minor changes, GWFs are where they should be. the moment you give a class a berserk Tab feature-Unstoppable, the intentions are that the player playing this class is capable of going berserk with it. Making Unstoppable Stoppable defeats the purpose. The problem is not in how quickly GWFs can gain determination. DCs can gain divinity pretty darn fast (at a comparable or faster rate). The only problem is the extent of damage resistance that Destroyer GWFs can get from going Unstoppable, which should only be available to Sentinels (or maybe Instigators as well) when feated..considering how often Destroyers can go Unstoppable. But asking for a nerf in damage when the Deep gash bug (which was the starting point of all this QQ) has already been fixed seems ridiculous.
Roar needs a fix.
Damage resistance needs a 5-10% reduction on unstoppable.
CD reduction for Takedown and Roar needs to be looked into. Either that or Tenacity based caps on chain CCs.
The rest..I am just seeing a whine thread with the future of turning into a flame war and subsequently closed.
Please try to keep your suggestions constructive or try to back them up with valid points other than "I got owned by XYZ class..or XYZ class outdamages me in PvE. Please nerf".
Unstoppable needs to be used in a tactful manner, right now it gives WAY to many bonuses and is spammable!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It is so clearly OP, that is the definition of OP. And you still want cryptic to change ALL other classes to match your level.
And what difference does it make if they tone you down(the easy path) instead of giving everyone the same mitigation, cc resistance and what not to survive your attack?!? Toning you down will allow cryptic to keep some class diversity.
Don't you ask yourself why there are players even amid you who think you are OP?
Or why so many people are saying that you are OP?
A 10-14K GWF with every ability and the class mechanic at his disposal is not OP be it PVE or PVP... a GWF with 17K+ is a different story but any player who gets his toon ( regardless of class ) to 16/17/18 can do things considered OP
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Really? That one escaped my attention. I was only aware that they wanted to look into the GF and CW classes. They said the GWF class is were they want it to be.
Are you talking purely from a PvP perspective? And from a damage dealt perspective?
Because in PvE, well geared GWFs can still be outdamaged by equally geared CWs and HRs (who know how to play this class well. I have noticed that GS isn't directly proportional to damage as compared to skill while playing HRs). If you are talking about survivability, due to the fact that they can step on red circles- Umm, yeah, they are meant to as an Off Tank. CWs have a great teleport skill and HRs have decent dodges (albeit, I hear they may be bugged and tend to rubberband) and considering they are both ranged, they do not need to stay in the red to keep attacking their targets. GWFs have to stay close to the target, often in the red to be offering any dps. And lifesteal is a problem not limited to GWFs, it is shared with CWs and HRs or any class that can hit fast and hard enough. So bottomline, the class GWF is not OP in PvE.
PvP- Problem right now isn't OP in terms of damage dealt. The IBS change was intentional and is working as expected. I am not sure if any GWF would prefer rolling with three stun/interrupt/prone skills in their hotbars. Usually they are limited to two (with a short cooldown). Anyone using three will not be able to kill as quick enough, you need IBS for the kill strikes. So the problem here, right now, is Roar bug and prone/interrupt/stun chains, which need to be capped at the tenacity end of things.
GWFs are not invulnerable. My toon can easily die to monsters in Icewind Dale. Regarding damage my experience is that CWs are capable of doing way more damage in PvE. That's due to the fact that they have hard hitting area powers. The GWF does not.
In the end the devs decide which class is too powerful and which isn't.
This thread is purely about Rebalancing GWF for PVP everyone dies to monsters!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Actually I'm all for toning down even cw damage. If you are a controller, you can't do that kind of damage.
But that should be applied to gwf too. You can't chain prone and hit for 10k every hit. I think that if you use control skills you should do way less damage.
I agree that sometimes may be the case, but denying that the GWF has the greatest tool set in the game for whatever situation may arise, and a boat load of front loaded massive burst coupled with crazy survivability cannot be over looked!
A 14k GWF will not be as invincible but will still roll over 2-3 other 14k GS players!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
From my understanding.
GWF is a dps class. CW is a controller class.
So now can GWF retain the dps? Nerf its prone cycles. Not its dps.
No
GWF ~ DPS / Tank / Controller/ Support class!
GF ~ Leader Class / Tank
DC ~ Leader Class / Support / Healing
HR ~ DPS / Support
TR ~ DPS / Support
CW ~ DPS / Controller / Support
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Fair enough. If they increase my heals. If not I'm dead anyway
Look, I don't ask too much. I don't want to win against a gwf. I know I shouldn't be able to kill one. But I'd like to keep me alive for some time with my own heals. And then I can die, knowing I have played my part, that is healing other
Ehm, I have full r9/r10, 3 legendary artifact (and I had 3 more legendary), full profound, 1200+ tenacity, 40% defence, have or had every perfect this game has to offer.
What more do I need to survive?
I m not going to argue thats happens, I assure you I do not have blue gear! And I also have almost 49% Damage Resistance and am hit for 10k-16k continuously by GWFs.
Maybe you should not play your GWF for a couple days so you too can see for yourself?
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The first role in the list of roles is the primary role. rest are possible secondary roles. Allow me to clarify that I was speaking purely from perspective of main roles.
And GF having main role as Leader and secondary role as tank? Any reference that you can quote for this?
CW having dps as primary and controller as secondary? You could argue that dps is a form of control (argued numerous times on the forums) but then mentioning both seems redundant.