CWs vs TRs

cryptfoundation

How do you guys deal with the TRs who slot ITC POTB and BnS? How about the ones that slot ITC Lashing Blade and BnS? and then either stack Duelist Flurry if it didn't take away half your health or use CoS if it did? Just a question I need some tips

twilightwatchman

Spec into MoF. Slot the highest rank Bilethorn you can afford. Use RoF as one At-Will and Steal Time as one encounter. Use dodge-cancelled ST to stack Smoulder and Bilethorn on invisible TR and shred his Stealth meter. Once visible, use RoF to stack Bilethorn as fast as DF does. TR is now permanently visible. Profit.

crazymikee

also turn your sound up (music off) so you hear his attacks / footsteps and u can find him so much easier, if you have a headset

ripyourlipsoff

Bile helps it does, I didn't think it did at first but it does... That said you will still usually die to a good TR more time then not. You do however get lucky and catch them on CDs and kill em!

twilightwatchman

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

Bile helps it does, I didn't think it did at first but it does... That said you will still usually die to a good TR more time then not. You do however get lucky and catch them on CDs and kill em!

Luckily there are many more bad or average TRs than good ones. And full perma builds are much harder to fight than the more common semi-perma builds. But my CW wins more fights against TRs than she loses since I switched to this build.

ripyourlipsoff

Oddly enough I sent my GF my CW Bile and it too has helped me with TRs on my GF... I cannot stack it as fats as my CW can, but if I can get 1 cc on him I can get off 3-4 hits and then hes gone and I just wait...

rustlord

twilightwatchman wrote: »

Spec into MoF. Slot the highest rank Bilethorn you can afford. Use RoF as one At-Will and Steal Time as one encounter. Use dodge-cancelled ST to stack Smoulder and Bilethorn on invisible TR and shred his Stealth meter. Once visible, use RoF to stack Bilethorn as fast as DF does. TR is now permanently visible. Profit.

I just died inside reading this. Spot on. xD

twilightwatchman

rustlord wrote: »

I just died inside reading this. Spot on. xD

The downside is you lack burst against other classes, but it works treat against stealth TRs. It's less effective against Combat TRs and your reflect build is problematic to say the least. Luckily there aren't many of them about.

todesfaelle

Yep, the lack of burst hurts when fighting other classes, specially for a class as squishy as CW's. But having even just a Lesser Bile slotted on a reserve main-hand will help a lot in PVP. It doesn't have to be the main weapon enchantment CW's should use but having one slotted helps a lot! Although for my CW I do like Bile better than my PF.

Hopefully we'd see more CW's rocking Bile in the future. It's a good enchant to have as a sub because it just decimates the TR's Stealth meter. It's the only enchantment in the game that directly affects a certain class mechanic to this extent. Bile + RoF + (Critical Conflagration or Storm Spell) / Bile + Steal Time Cancel = Complete and total depletion of Stealth. The challenge will then become the real permastealth rogues. People tend to label PoB/SS/ITC rogues as permas, but I think otherwise. When you have to drop out of Stealth every 10 seconds, it's not really "permanent" as compared to permas who go out of stealth by choice.

Some additional observations from my tests some months back with my MoF Wiz. I noticed Smolder stacks Bile pretty quickly and this can be observed by using one click of Scorching Burst on a dummy. Each tick of Smolder seems to add a stack of Bile, which makes Critical Conflagration a good Class Feature to pair up with Ray of Frost. All it takes is just one tick of RoF to crit and the TR will be afflicted by Rimefire, which will further contribute to the burning of his Stealth even after he uses Shadow Strike. If he wants to escape the effects of Bilethorn + Rimefire, he'll have to wait for roughly 9 seconds and not Stealth up, and not take any more hits from the CW, so the Rimefire and Bilethorn Stacks would have depleted itself completely.

Bilethorn is also HIGHLY synergistic with the CW Daily, Oppressive Force. Oppressive Force in conjunction with Bilethorn will reveal the TR in a variety of ways. The AoE Daze will reveal the location of the TR via the CC effect, making the TR target-able even when in Stealth as long as they are Dazed. The TR can use ITC in order to escape the Daze effect, but he will be rendered visible, which makes him an easy target for Ray of Frost + Bile + Critical Conflagration. But what's more is that Oppressive Force's damage is inflicted in a series of ticks, each tick of Oppressive Force adds stacks of Bilethorn, which will further contribute to the depletion of the TR's Stealth.

One other idea I had in mind which I have not had the chance of testing yet is Bilethorn's synergy with Storm Spell. Ray of Frost procs this A LOT, so I was thinking that what if Storm Spell stacks additional Bilethorn stacks as well? But alas, not much time on my hands nowadays. I can't even play regularly on my TR. If anyone can test this out it would be a great contribution to the player community, particularly CWs!

slushlikewind

If you wanna duel TR as CW

First you need a bilethorn.

Second you need to be a good CW.

Third you need to be a good TR yourself so you know how they play.

And last, it is better for you to not duel a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> TR... not worth it.

twilightwatchman

slushlikewind wrote: »

If you wanna duel TR as CW

First you need a bilethorn.

Second you need to be a good CW.

Third you need to be a good TR yourself so you know how they play.

And last, it is better for you to not duel a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> TR... not worth it.

There are enough bad semi-perma TRs out there that hunting them for fun and profit is good tactics. In 90% of cases they are completely helpless once their stealth is gone. Plus they tend to target CWs so I generally don't have to go looking for duels.

As Todes points out, true permas are a different proposition and harder to expose. They still go down fast once they're visible though.

twilightwatchman

todesfaelle wrote: »

Yep, the lack of burst hurts when fighting other classes, specially for a class as squishy as CW's. But having even just a Lesser Bile slotted on a reserve main-hand will help a lot in PVP. It doesn't have to be the main weapon enchantment CW's should use but having one slotted helps a lot! Although for my CW I do like Bile better than my PF.

Hopefully we'd see more CW's rocking Bile in the future. It's a good enchant to have as a sub because it just decimates the TR's Stealth meter. It's the only enchantment in the game that directly affects a certain class mechanic to this extent. Bile + RoF + (Critical Conflagration or Storm Spell) / Bile + Steal Time Cancel = Complete and total depletion of Stealth. The challenge will then become the real permastealth rogues. People tend to label PoB/SS/ITC rogues as permas, but I think otherwise. When you have to drop out of Stealth every 10 seconds, it's not really "permanent" as compared to permas who go out of stealth by choice.

Some additional observations from my tests some months back with my MoF Wiz. I noticed Smolder stacks Bile pretty quickly and this can be observed by using one click of Scorching Burst on a dummy. Each tick of Smolder seems to add a stack of Bile, which makes Critical Conflagration a good Class Feature to pair up with Ray of Frost. All it takes is just one tick of RoF to crit and the TR will be afflicted by Rimefire, which will further contribute to the burning of his Stealth even after he uses Shadow Strike. If he wants to escape the effects of Bilethorn + Rimefire, he'll have to wait for roughly 9 seconds and not Stealth up, and not take any more hits from the CW, so the Rimefire and Bilethorn Stacks would have depleted itself completely.

Bilethorn is also HIGHLY synergistic with the CW Daily, Oppressive Force. Oppressive Force in conjunction with Bilethorn will reveal the TR in a variety of ways. The AoE Daze will reveal the location of the TR via the CC effect, making the TR target-able even when in Stealth as long as they are Dazed. The TR can use ITC in order to escape the Daze effect, but he will be rendered visible, which makes him an easy target for Ray of Frost + Bile + Critical Conflagration. But what's more is that Oppressive Force's damage is inflicted in a series of ticks, each tick of Oppressive Force adds stacks of Bilethorn, which will further contribute to the depletion of the TR's Stealth.

I've been using this build for a few weeks now and I love it. I get fewer kills overall in Domination but most of them are now TRs. I also get fewer deaths and my K/D ratio is nicely positive. It's surprising how many people just run away once you set them on fire AND poison them. All those dots really scare people, regardless of the relatively small damage numbers.

Most TRs panic when I strip their stealth because they simply aren't expecting it and have no plan to cope. Some keep trying to re-stealth and just flicker in and out of visibility while being pummelled. It's a nice bit of role reversal.

You're right about Opressive Force and the best part is that most CWs will have it slotted anyway. Sometimes I can hit an entire node with it and light up the whole enemy team on Mid. Chaos generally ensues.

thegrandexeno

In this case, wouldn't Plague Fire be better? DoTs the same iirc, plus in case of a "non perma TR" also debuffs. Correct me if I'm wrong

gameisfreetowin

Grand, if some1 is really that tanky, RoE will help there. You can potentially be correct with GPF, however most CWs run PerVorp b/c of DPS. I run Vorp and switch to Bile on teams that need enjoy more DoTs on them.

todesfaelle

thegrandexeno wrote: »

In this case, wouldn't Plague Fire be better? DoTs the same iirc, plus in case of a "non perma TR" also debuffs. Correct me if I'm wrong

Plague Fire doesn't inflict the same damage to the Stealth Meter as Bilethorn does, simply because Plague Fire is tagged as a DoT and Bilethorn ticks are tagged as pure damage. Pure damage (weapon attack damage) is what hurts the Stealth Meter the most, and DoTs hurt our Stealth Meter the least. You generally do not wish to rely on DoTs to deplete our Stealth. If you try playing a TR you will notice a HUGE difference in taking damage from Bilethorn/Weapon Attacks as compared to Plague Fire, Conduit of Ice, or any of those other DoTs CW's tend to use. The exception however, is Smolder. Smolder and Rimefire ticks stack Bilethorn per tick for some reason, as per my observations in the Preview Shard.

Another reason is that Plague Fire can only stack up to 3 times. In the case of Bilethorn, however, you can stack it infinitely. It doesn't matter if it procs after 4 seconds when you can keep stacking it until you are satisfied.

todesfaelle

twilightwatchman wrote: »

I've been using this build for a few weeks now and I love it. I get fewer kills overall in Domination but most of them are now TRs. I also get fewer deaths and my K/D ratio is nicely positive. It's surprising how many people just run away once you set them on fire AND poison them. All those dots really scare people, regardless of the relatively small damage numbers.

Most TRs panic when I strip their stealth because they simply aren't expecting it and have no plan to cope. Some keep trying to re-stealth and just flicker in and out of visibility while being pummelled. It's a nice bit of role reversal.

You're right about Opressive Force and the best part is that most CWs will have it slotted anyway. Sometimes I can hit an entire node with it and light up the whole enemy team on Mid. Chaos generally ensues.

I know I would panic as well when one of my main defenses gets effectively stripped down like that. Which is why I'm always on the look out for CWs that have Steal Time slotted. When they know what they're doing I personally would prefer fighting a GWF over them. It's easier to outsmart GWFs thanks to their straightforward mechanics. But CWs on the other hand have creative CCs which make the good ones trickier to fight than the "good" GWFs.

HRs however are a different story. Completely on a whole new Rogue-killing level, and it can still be improved.

rustlord

Any good TR would make a good CW, coz he'll know all the secrets >.<

But then that goes for every class as well, we all have skeletons in our closets. If you wanna see a dead TR, stick an HR to his neck. Wait two seconds, and rejoice in success.

kweassa

In the end, it also comes down to preparation.

I carry 5 main hand weapons all with different enchantments, ready to use in different situations as required. I change around my encounters and power settings constantly during matches, to be able to perform as optimally as possible according to my given role. If the party needs me to backnode, I set a perma. If it needs me to stay at 2 and help out, then I set support settings. If it needs me to become part of the meat-grinder and just keep the enemies occupied constantly regardless of amount of deaths, then I switch around to more all-out offense.

I've seen many TRs go through at least this amount of preparation. Ever since perma/semi-permas became a problem, and Bilethorn became the counter to stealth, a lot of TRs aim for spare weapons with different enchantments.

...

And I've honestly never seen a CW (or any other class for that matter) ever change their power/weapons in the middle of the fight. I've seen even the worst PuG TRs change their powers around and brings in PotB to flush me out. Even these PuG-weak TRs try to come up with something to do better.... but then, for some reason, other classes just seem to lazy with this aspect of PvP - preparation.

Sure, preparation isn't enough to let you flush out and kill a TR by itself -- but it sure doesn't hurt your chances to do so.

If you've become confident in your gear level upto a certain amount, then go further. Get spare weapons with different enchantments for each situation. It does help a lot.

kozi001

Choose Icy terrain(Steal time maybe)/OF to unstealth him.
Put DOT(Conduit) on him. It burns his stealth meter.

twilightwatchman

kweassa wrote: »

And I've honestly never seen a CW (or any other class for that matter) ever change their power/weapons in the middle of the fight. I've seen even the worst PuG TRs change their powers around and brings in PotB to flush me out. Even these PuG-weak TRs try to come up with something to do better.... but then, for some reason, other classes just seem to lazy with this aspect of PvP - preparation.

Sure, preparation isn't enough to let you flush out and kill a TR by itself -- but it sure doesn't hurt your chances to do so.

If you've become confident in your gear level upto a certain amount, then go further. Get spare weapons with different enchantments for each situation. It does help a lot.

I change up my encounters all the time on all three toons I regularly PvP with (HR, TR, CW). I don't have the AD to carry spare weapon enchants or I'd probably do that as well. PuG PvP requires constant adaptation.

twilightwatchman

kozi001 wrote: »

Choose Icy terrain(Steal time maybe)/OF to unstealth him.
Put DOT(Conduit) on him. It burns his stealth meter.

Icy Terrain ticks too slowly. Dodge-cancelled Steal Time builds ticks much faster and you can repeat every 4 seconds.

I have actually used both in combination but usually only if I have more than one target. I'm not sure if there's much benefit in PvP to be honest as you won't make best use of Icy Terrain's target cap.

thegrandexeno

Very interesting lesson, thank you for the answers+insights! (I have a lowbie CW, and in any case I just passed here to debate & learn )

twilightwatchman

rustlord wrote: »

If you wanna see a dead TR, stick an HR to his neck. Wait two seconds, and rejoice in success.

I think that's going to change when the HR set bonus gets nerfed into oblivion.

ripyourlipsoff

twilightwatchman wrote: »

I think that's going to change when the HR set bonus gets nerfed into oblivion.

One can pray... Sick of seeing HRs regenerate entire health pool over and over.

twilightwatchman

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

One can pray... Sick of seeing HRs regenerate entire health pool over and over.

The VAST majority do no such thing. Ever. I've come across precisely one who came close. He was rock hard, mind. But hit like a wet noodle.

thegrandexeno

twilightwatchman wrote: »

The VAST majority do no such thing. Ever. I've come across precisely one who came close. He was rock hard, mind. But hit like a wet noodle.

I concur. Half-a$$ed "tankregen" PF aren't really a hassle even for me.
All the hype about omg PF uberregen insta full heal was only for one-five peeps out there, that I assure you, have pretty much spent around 10mil on gear. GEAR (not "procs" not other things). Meaning that the procs of regen+deflect are good/normal, and only go to the GWF realm ONLY if you gear yourself to death (aka: Zen or it didn't happen)