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A request for TRANSPARENCY in how the PvP Leaderboard works
proneification
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 494 Bounty Hunter
As things stand now, the Leaderboard (LB from now on), while a very nice addition, functions in what is seemingly random ways. Such behaviors were described in previous topics and relate to matchmaking and ranking both. I will try to make a short list:
- matchmaking failures. Just one example: very high ELO 3-men premade queues. Think all 3 in first 10 pages, some page 1. They are matched against random pugs. Nothing new, right? But the 2 places that were free in the premade got filled with what?
Yet another very high ELO, 2-man premade.
This results in basically a complete mismatch and 5 men premade vs full pug team without weapon and armor enchants.
So why the premades were put together and not one vs another?
The matchmaking is ripe with these failures. The above one is just one single example.
- the rankings.
I have waited for a while before posting on this issue - I wanted to get a good overview of the situation. I play 3 classes, GWF/TR/CW, and usually, depending on situation, go from 4 to 10 games/day on each.
A few very "interesting" behaviors of the rankings:
- you win, you go down. Sometimes an entire page. I mean... really? At least let us keep position. We're not guilty that YOU, Cryptic, match us against weaker adversaries.
- depending on class. Not sure how to stress this enough. How come you have an easier time climbing the board as a GWF/TR/HR than, let's say, a DC or CW? Is it the capping? The points made/game? The kill/death ratio?
Do you realize that it is impossible for support classes to score as much as the OP classes that can also hold nodes?
Kindly remedy this situation.
- solo queue, team leaves, you lose to pugs, you go down 20 pages+. Is there any way to encourage solo-pugging? At this point, I just cannot do it anymore because of how punitive the consequences are when you lose... and the loss is out of your power.
- climbing the ladder by stacking FOTM builds. This needs to be addressed really fast. Class stacking has a very negative example. My guild won't go in 5 man without 3 GWFs and they never like it if I try to come on my CW. Other guilds act just the same, stacking GWFs, permas and pathfinder HR tanks. Losses in such a comp are exceptional.
- winning against much better placed adversaries has sometimes no effect - or even drop you slightly. So, as an example, 1:30 hours premade, against better (overall) placed people, and at the end I dropped half a page, even as my GWF had top score. Wow. Now this is depressing.
All that I politely argue in favor of is...
Let us know EXACTLY how things work, please.
- matchmaking failures. Just one example: very high ELO 3-men premade queues. Think all 3 in first 10 pages, some page 1. They are matched against random pugs. Nothing new, right? But the 2 places that were free in the premade got filled with what?
Yet another very high ELO, 2-man premade.
This results in basically a complete mismatch and 5 men premade vs full pug team without weapon and armor enchants.
So why the premades were put together and not one vs another?
The matchmaking is ripe with these failures. The above one is just one single example.
- the rankings.
I have waited for a while before posting on this issue - I wanted to get a good overview of the situation. I play 3 classes, GWF/TR/CW, and usually, depending on situation, go from 4 to 10 games/day on each.
A few very "interesting" behaviors of the rankings:
- you win, you go down. Sometimes an entire page. I mean... really? At least let us keep position. We're not guilty that YOU, Cryptic, match us against weaker adversaries.
- depending on class. Not sure how to stress this enough. How come you have an easier time climbing the board as a GWF/TR/HR than, let's say, a DC or CW? Is it the capping? The points made/game? The kill/death ratio?
Do you realize that it is impossible for support classes to score as much as the OP classes that can also hold nodes?
Kindly remedy this situation.
- solo queue, team leaves, you lose to pugs, you go down 20 pages+. Is there any way to encourage solo-pugging? At this point, I just cannot do it anymore because of how punitive the consequences are when you lose... and the loss is out of your power.
- climbing the ladder by stacking FOTM builds. This needs to be addressed really fast. Class stacking has a very negative example. My guild won't go in 5 man without 3 GWFs and they never like it if I try to come on my CW. Other guilds act just the same, stacking GWFs, permas and pathfinder HR tanks. Losses in such a comp are exceptional.
- winning against much better placed adversaries has sometimes no effect - or even drop you slightly. So, as an example, 1:30 hours premade, against better (overall) placed people, and at the end I dropped half a page, even as my GWF had top score. Wow. Now this is depressing.
All that I politely argue in favor of is...
Let us know EXACTLY how things work, please.
Post edited by proneification on
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Comments
Yeah it's almost as if the matchmaking system stacks teams intentionally.
However, it seems people on the top of the leaderboards have been exploiting and gaming the system anyways so what is the point. Might as well release it to give a more equal advantage for everyone to game it.
If it's properly structured, you shouldn't be able to game it.
I have never seen a perfectly structured leaderboard that has zero spaces for exploitation/gaming. I've seen very good ones that have well-hidden flaws or very minimal flaws. The current one we have is too easy to figure out, hence hiding its mechanics is almost pointless now
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Just ignore that leaderboard thing... its useless and buggy... and a lot of pvpers dont care about that.
As a TR, winning and losing results in moving 1-4 pages up or down. As a DC losing causes you to drop 10 pages minimum, and winning most of the time has no effect.
That said, I'm losing more pug matches as a TR, but I keep being placed at pages 10-15, as a DC I mostly win with positive K/D and most of the time lose positions.
It is what we have now. I don't give it a lot of importance, yet it is a fun implement to have. So why not understanding and improving it?
Also the "fact" that a lot of PvPers don't care about it might not be so true. Because people run in those 3-5 GWF comps for a reason...
Incorrect.
Most PVPers, especially those on the top of the leaderboard (coming from top pvp guilds) care a lot about those leaderboards. There are a lot of famous guilds that participate in exploiting to increase their scores. I can't name any of them sadly because it is against the forum rules and it doesn't matter since they probably will not be reprimanded in anyway.
You can say people are angry and frustrated about the leaderboard, but if people truly don't care, then they wouldn't be exploiting the system, they wouldn't be gaming it by queueing in a specific type of group. That is not the case, hence your statement is inaccurate.
Befriend some people from the big pvp guilds. Learn the shady techniques they participate in to game the system. Get a clue. Then come back and say they don't care about the leaderboard deep inside.
Well, this is not really true, at least anymore. There was some exploiting at first by queueing against alts just to farm the PvP stuff. But this has and adverse effect on leaderboard position overall.
The only "exploiting" that takes place right now is FOTM tanky builds stacking/party. It's the 3-5 GWFs/HRs comps you find sometimes in PvP, all with maxed gear and drunk on elixirs. There's almost no way to lose in these comps, basically only an even more stupid OP comp will beat you.
Basically, roar/IBS/thornward/perma/meditation etc. is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill at the moment. Stack as much of this and you gonna be happy on the leaderboard.
So, to be fair, its not impossible to "climb" ladder alone but i still dont get how this leaderboard is working tbh.
I dont really mind anyway, because its obviously irrelevant; i dont consider myself as top 2 HR.
Some clarification on how it is working would be much appreciated though.
One basic principle that cryptic has explained many times already: it's team elo vs. team elo, where leaderboard rank is a proxy for elo. You go up (down) more if you beat (lose to) a team with higher (lower) elo. The odd thing is that there are matches where a team can ONLY lose rank regardless of the outcome. Rank on leaderboard has nothing to do with a player's score in a game or the GS.
Also, the rank-movement swings become smaller and smaller as toons move up the leaderboard.
That's my understanding and experience, at least. Despite a few drawbacks, I'm a big fan.
Iyon the Dark
I agree that this seems completely rife with fail.
If they can't be transparent just get rid of the stupid thing.
MMOs that have leaderboards without these things is like the Pay2Wins, Chinese, and the Korean MMOs.
I can say, let's not be like those Chinese and Pay2Win MMOs, let's not have a leaderboard without a competitive scene or ranked matches.
Meh.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder