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Suggesting brackets in PvP
vedran541
Member Posts: 199 Arc User
Seriously, every time i solo que for PvP, i get 4 ponies on my team, and they allways fight 4v1 on home node vs a tr or gwf, and pref fighting between the bases aswell. It looks basically like they entered PvP for the first time. Usually between 4k gs and 10k gs. While the other team has all 110% mounts and run straight to middle where i am usually alone.
And if i que with a full party, we basically fight those ponies, so thats not any better either.
And right now the gap between geared and ungeared players are getting bigger and bigger, with all the new boons, higher prices etc. New players will never catch up, and old players will slowly die out, where in the end you will have 10 people playing against eachother that has max gear.
I suggestet earlier that you give some guidelines in loading screen when players enter pvp, so that they are not completly clueless, because most are, really.
That was in this thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?657791-Domination-Suggestion
But now, i think maybe brackets is the way to go. I can see how you think ELo might be working. You find 5 random people, take the average of that gruop, and do exactly the same with group nr2. But this is not working as intended, and sometimes not working at all. If we split a full party of max geared players to duo que and trio que, we usually end up in the same group ofc against the biggest pugs. So sometimes ELO is just terrible.
With brackets you would get paired up with and against people with some knowledge for PvP. You wouldent have to try your best to explain what those circles are that you are supposed to stand on etc. And the people in the pug bracket can fight players their own level as they learn pvp and as some of their ELO increases, they get in the higher bracket.
So to sum up, solo queing is ****ing impossible for me atm without beeing a TR, the gap between players is getting bigger and putting 7ks against 17ks is not working for anyone at the moment.
And if i que with a full party, we basically fight those ponies, so thats not any better either.
And right now the gap between geared and ungeared players are getting bigger and bigger, with all the new boons, higher prices etc. New players will never catch up, and old players will slowly die out, where in the end you will have 10 people playing against eachother that has max gear.
I suggestet earlier that you give some guidelines in loading screen when players enter pvp, so that they are not completly clueless, because most are, really.
That was in this thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?657791-Domination-Suggestion
But now, i think maybe brackets is the way to go. I can see how you think ELo might be working. You find 5 random people, take the average of that gruop, and do exactly the same with group nr2. But this is not working as intended, and sometimes not working at all. If we split a full party of max geared players to duo que and trio que, we usually end up in the same group ofc against the biggest pugs. So sometimes ELO is just terrible.
With brackets you would get paired up with and against people with some knowledge for PvP. You wouldent have to try your best to explain what those circles are that you are supposed to stand on etc. And the people in the pug bracket can fight players their own level as they learn pvp and as some of their ELO increases, they get in the higher bracket.
So to sum up, solo queing is ****ing impossible for me atm without beeing a TR, the gap between players is getting bigger and putting 7ks against 17ks is not working for anyone at the moment.
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My suggestion is to focus on GS/Sets. Meaning that there will be brackets related to the T-set we are equipping:
bracket 60 = no sets, blues/purples(<-normal, like aboleth)
bracket 60-T1 = having T1 set pieces
bracket 60-T2= having T2 set pieces
bracket 60-T3 = IWD set?
And for the people who say "heh but if it's done like this you may have to wait more, let's say, in the T2 bracket". Okay, then equip T1 and "wait" until a larger number of people have T2 in the game, or equip T2 and if you feel that you're waiting too much in queue, equip your T1: what's the problem there. Or do you really want to faceroll undergeared opponent who crit you for 5k...
A gear based game CANNOT be bracketed on anything but gear. This is THE rule, and in the most pvping game there was (WHO) it was done beautifully until T4(40 "renown lvl" +). The best bracket for me was T3, after that it was me vs any kind of monster endgame longtime players = mega gear difference= me doing 100 dmg vs 2000.
The only way I feel it's somewhat "feasable" to manage now is being perma TR, but this still won't net you any glory points (150? pfft) if your team lose.
Diamond: 1000 matches won
Gold: 250 matches won
Silver: 50 matches won
Bronze: 0 matches won
when you queue it looks for other people in your division but every 5 secs the search will expand 1 division to find people if there are not enough in your division. Also separate the leaderboard into those divisions so elite players will always pvp with the most elite players available and casuals can find mostly casuals. this should also reduce the drastic amounts of elites vs newbie Rofl-stomps.
This also makes the divisions skill based rather than just buying your way to good gear but still unable to play effectivly.
Also having the leaderboard broken up this way you know the people at the top are true pvp masters not just pvp pug stompers. Having titles and achievements for this would be cool too.
Some cosmetic stuff would also be pretty amazing like glowing polygon auras at the toons feet for what bracket they are in and have them get more glowy and fancy like enchants with progression through the divisions.
my 2 cents
So it would be more like:
Novice ~ 7000-9000 GS
Intermediate ~ 10000-13000 GS
Pro ~ 14000 - 16000 GS
Champion ~ 17000+
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Not to mention GWF get stuff like + 20% of your def as power with is lots of gs while DC gets nothing like that so it is much harder for them to get their GS up
This is not balanced. I could've won 1000 matches but lost 9000. How does it make me a good (Diamond) player? It doesn't.
The discrimen must be GS only, because THAT is the real difference between two same class, same skill players. I will hit you with the same skill for 100, you'll hit me for 1000.
But better than GS (that sometimes is not given by some items), an Armor Set discrimen is best in my experience. Remember that within 1-3k GS difference we can have a huge difference in tenacity.
Of course in that case it will be a matter of enchants/artifacts, but it's still the optimal solution, given there's no "best overall" one, and never will be in any kind of game.
So what? They will be pitted against roughly equal GS enemies.
ok make it 1000 wins, 2000 losses. Or just 1000 and 1000 (50%). Does even 50% make me a DIAMOND player? 50% of "what"? Heated battles or 1000-20 vs pvE dailiers? This is a team pvp playstyle so who knows which teams composition you fought against? And which team composition you fought with?
Answer: to be able to reliably gauge and average out the team composition, so our "wins/losses" have a bare significance, we need to operate on the discrimen with which teams are built: GS brackets.
NEW RANKING = 0,7*(wins*100/total matches)+0,3*GS or something like this
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
EDIT: they changed inflated GS from power.
That's fine higher gear score will help you more then being a better player with less! Unfortunately Gear / Class Mechanics = Everything
Look at GWF if they are close to your GS, even if you out play them they still will beat you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
If its based on GS, it will mostly be GFs and GWFs in one bracket because they are the only class able to get their gs above 17k+ with feats etc, so thats stupid. Also, for some classes blue rings, belts, etc are a better choise then epics that give you GS, so GS is a bad indicator of skill. It can be PVE gear even, where the players has 20k hp, 0 regen, 0 tenacity but still 16k+ gs. So basing brackets on GS is bad.
It should be an working ELO rating. Above 1800 higher brackets, below 1800 lower bracket etc.
2000 matches is still 500 hundred hours of pvp time, and if you are winning 50% of the time that is how the game should be balanced where you are against people hard enough you loose half the time but not so hard you loose all the time.
also basing it just on gs would be a good idea if all classes had fair way to get there but as is DC and GWF with equal gear and time put in have a 4k gs difference which would make DC play pvp even less than they already do as the campaign is clearly against them.
(no I am not a butt hurt dc I have all classes capped and those where the 2 with the largest difference between them)
by your logic with gear sets that still puts them 4000 gs apart
Wrong. We are speaking NOT about "skill", but about pitting players with same-ish damage output / survival stats from gear.
You won't EVER find someone with 10k GS dishing MORE damage than a 13k GS, or getting less damaged.
The only thing to "rework" may be GS rating for some pieces pieces and or stats. But just to use GS as a bracket.
Skill means nothing if I am pitted against my same class and for example I Aimshot for 5k while they Aimshot for 10k, and regenerate and whatever. Those improvements are GEAR RELATED ONLY, not skill.
So if someone has more gs than you you cant out skill them or beat them? I get kills all the time on my cleric with people with waay higher gs than me because I out think them and out skill them
bottom line classes need to be balanced
Well i really dont want brackets based on gear but skill. Because it dosent matter what kind of gear you have if you dont know where the base of a pvp map is. If you look at my first post, the suggestion for brackets are mostly to separate the people who have no idea what to do from the people who have an idea what to do. It dosent have to be 10 different divisons/league etc, just so its possible to solo que without punching the wall
Also look at starcraft, everybody in starcraft has all the same stats but they break it into divisions by skill because otherwise they would have pub stomps, like team fortress 2 (also stat balanced) still has pub stomps
And for you that is a DIAMOND class player? It's just average to me.
I'm not arguing with you, really
So you say that with the same gear set, DC has 4k less GS? But let's look at the "power" of said sets, so we can work around. Or we can tweak GS so it represents better the facevalue of actual "combat capability" number wise.
Btw you are also comparing the two opposite classes in game: a Healer/support/dps with a FULL DPS...not the very best comparison imho
So if I go with all blues vs 19k GWF it's all good, right? Cause I know how to play, I know to go "middle" first, to try to stay on node (lol with an archer spec +20%for distance...oookay) and to help with CC and interrupts.
Sadly it's just NO. No matter the strategy, my pal, at the end of the day is "fastest way to win is killing faster so no enemy is capping anything".
Cmon, how do you stop someone from capping, how do you retake a point? Killing or making the enemy run away. And how do you do it? Dishing DA MA GE. Damage comes from Gear, not skill.
I repeat myself. If I go against a equal "skilled" player but with blues and he is with Full Profound, guess what will happen. Please.
Well stop talking about GWFs, they will get nerfed pretty soon. And yes, all i am asking for is to get paired up with people who run to 2 and die. Because right now, even that is not happening.
Also, challenge accepted. I will go 10k gs on my CW, you go 15k gs or whatever you want, and you will see that it will not just be roflstomping, as long as the players put up a fight and go where they are supposed to go, GS is not winning matches.
I played with a friend on some pug accounts, he had 4k gs, i had 6k gs. And we basically crushed teams that were twice our GS. Because we knew where to go, how to cap bases etc. And the 3 other players on our team, were running in a pack, together with the 5 ppl from enemy team fighting where ever they met. So GS wins nothing. So, again, all i am asking from these "brackets" is that when i ****ing solo que, that i get people who know where the base is and know how to hold a point etc.
bait them to one point while your team caps the other two or just bait them into chasing you around while your team caps.
simple stuff, I have won matches by a lot where my team got almost no kills
pvp is won by capped time, not kills. anytime you can stall 2 people from being on a point for longer than your respawn time is time gained
or keep them busy on 2 while your team caps home and back capps, most teams only notice their point is capped when they respawn, no one ever bails on a fight in mid to recap their point
Heal/support should have different stats than gwf but not lower.
I like the gameplay of this game but the matchmaking is horrible.
Same yeah, but there is no way to enjoy pvp without having to carry 4 other people as it stands now. And if your not a GWF or TR, thats pretty difficult.
*9 GWF in one game*
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
The problem with total win number based queue groupings: Players that are 100 wins and 0 losses would be playing players with 100 wins and 900 losses. The 100-900 player would always be in this bracket because their wins wouldn't decrease, this allows for no downward mobility in the rankings. Players would never hit their 'skill' threshold and decrease, going back down in 'tier' to get matches that are still challenging, but winnable.
The only method that would work is making PVP Score visible, both in the player window, and the change at the end of Domination rounds. It needs to be based on win percentage, and instead of just giving people a direct win % value, they should score points on wins depending on the score of the other team.
Day 1, all teams start with PVP Score : 0
At the start, wins count for 10 points each, and losses do not subtract from PS (PVP Score) until you reach 1,000 score. Everyone on the team receives the same amount of score change regardless of their match end score. It will take 100 wins to reach this threshold.
After the PS of 1,000 is reached, PS change depends on the difference between the average PS score of the two teams, and the score of the match (where both teams are trying to get 1,000 points to end the round). In this respect, teams will not give up fighting until the bitter end, likewise a team that trounces another team 1k-0 should get more points for that win than a match where it is 1k-999. Alternatively a team that scores 999pts and loses should lose less PS than had they only made 200 points by round's end.
For example:
Two teams Play, both PS 1,000.
Team A wins 1,000 to 0 vs Team B.
Team A gains 10 points for the win, but for winning with a 100% margin they gain a bonus of 10 points (the % margin rounded down to the nearest 10%, which would still be 100%, divided by 10, which is 10). There must be another modifier on how many points the team wins/loses at round's end, which is the difference in average PS between the two teams. However for this example since the teams both have 1,000 PS there is no need to show it, I will give examples later.
So Team A wins 20 points for a flawless victory, and is now at 1,020 PS.
But Team B must lose PS in order to allow downward mobility. A loss is a flat 15 point loss no matter what (a loss must decrease the points by more than a win in order to allow downward mobility and to more heavily weight win percentages. A team with 50% win percentage should never be the same PS as a team with 95%). So Team B loses 15 points, but because they lost by 100%, there needs to be a bonus amount lost, to keep teams trying through the whole match and keep competition going until the end. So again, 100% is divided by 10, which is 10, and added to the teams loss, so they lose a total of 25 points for the match.
Now Team A has won a bunch of matches, they are at an average of 1,200 PS. They match up against Team C which is at 1,000 PS.
Team A wins 1,000 vs 600 against Team C
Team A wins 10 points for the win, 4 points for the point difference (40% difference / 10 = 4), but now we must figure out what the modifier is because of the difference in PS between the two teams. 1,000 PS vs 1,200 PS, the 1,200 PS team is favored to win because they have a 20% higher PS. Taking a 20% margin off the total PS Team A wins (dropping them from 14 PS gained to 11) does not seem like enough. So the percentage difference between the two teams is doubled, and that percentage is subtracted from the points won by Team A.
Team A wins 8 points for beating Team C.
But how much does Team C lose? Well 15 points from the standard, plus the point difference (400 point difference = 40% / 10 = 4 points), so a total non-adjusted loss of 19 points. But Team A had a 20% higher average PS. Double that difference (20% x 2 = 40%) and take that away in the same respect it was to Team A. 19 points, subtracting 40%, is 11 points.
Team A, who was expected to win, and won by 400 points, went from 1,200 PS to 1,208. Team C who was expected to lose went from 1,000 PS to 989 points.
But now lets do the alternative, flip the round end score, but Team C wins.
Team C (1,000 PS) wins 1,000 vs 600 by Team A (1,200).
Team C wins 10 points for the win, 4 points for the point difference (40% difference / 10 = 4). 1,000 PS vs 1,200 PS, 20% lower PS means they weren't favored to win and should get a bonus. So the percentage difference between the two teams is doubled, and that percentage is added from the points won by Team C. +40% to the 14 points won by Team C nets them a total of 19.6, all points gained/lost drop the percentages, so they win 19 points.
Team A should have won but didn't. They lose 15 points. Plus 4 for the point difference. Plus 40% for the PS difference between the two teams. Team A loses 26 points.
Team A now has 1,174 points, Team C has 1,019 points.
If that is the case, I firstly suggested using Pvp-Sets as "bracket assigners": you equip 2+ of one set, you go to that T-bracket.
For all the other thing you wrote, I'm sorry that I can't reply focusedly: I'm just not interested in the pretty numbers, never been even in WHO (in which I presumably was one of the best Engineers of T3, for anyone who played). I just want to have fun with people I can relate to damage wise (me to them and them to me): everything else distracts from the focus of the game, that is having fun, and distorts the gameplay (people afking when vs ubergeared, people rushing away / logging off in OpvP).
Whenever we will have a SCOREBOARD (be it personal but especially if public) with k/d and such, you'll see people misbehaving to keep up the shiny numbers alive. A LOT.