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Is GWF viable yet?
spacejew
Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
Heyo, haven't played since the so-called 'Beta' stage and I was curious if GWF is viable as a character class yet.
By viable, I mean is it taken into end game content without being kicked or laughed at on a regular basis; or is it still kicked to make room for one more rogue or wizard.
Thanks for any constructive responses, I'd like to know the opinion on it before I bother redownloading the client.
By viable, I mean is it taken into end game content without being kicked or laughed at on a regular basis; or is it still kicked to make room for one more rogue or wizard.
Thanks for any constructive responses, I'd like to know the opinion on it before I bother redownloading the client.
MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
Post edited by spacejew on
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Does it have to do with more people having OP end game enchants or has something significantly changed in the GWF tree's to somehow make it viable?
Ah, so there's an up-and-coming 'balance' patch due eh? Might I ask what type of GWF has somehow caused a virtually ignored underdog class to become the subject of 'balance'?
I'm going to guess it's PvP-stunlock-sentinel GWF, as that was virtually the only thing they were ever good for while I played.
If GWF is a decent pick for PvE DPS in PUG T2 without end-game enchants I might still redownload regardless. I keep my PvP to FPS games with level playing fields, so any PvP CC changes do not interest and/or dissuade me.
difficult to say. class is the best for "nuke". qualitatively speaking it is so strong in this department as the cw is for damage / crowd control (+14 k gs).
a group of 2cw +2 gwf is the best possible compilation, although there are still gf / rogues prominent.
but the basis of this change was a defensive buffs in atwills aoe / a big boost in deep gash which became a kind of conspicuous increase in severity critical, without it you gain life steal returns / strike restoring.
ap gain is much lower than it was in beta, but much higher than the module 1. slam the lost strength, that does not matter anymore because we do not have a super production with the roar of ap. Anyway of a cw / ranger would make gwf the lagged beta considering the initial explosion damage both.
ps: yes, is full of envious players, gwf who like the idea of playing with a "wronged" class crusading against improvements classes. is a ridiculous situation that I hope not to be taken seriously again.
Whoa whoa whoa, rework of Deep Gash? So it's not a flat 15% of power anymore? Because it absolutely was garbage at that point.
As for scaling better, I'll read that as a yes on more people getting OP end game enchants making the class appear OP. Because those enchants, god love 'em, are more important than any combination of skills or player skill you can bring into the mix. Or they were; I'm guessing they haven't nerfed $160 items into the ground as-of-yet and are still scrambling to make them anything other than paying to...perform way better...
And I read elsewhere that the combo cancel off WMS is now gone...is it just WMS or did they remove all combo cancel? Or did they even actually remove it?
Deep gash is no longer a flat 15% of power. It now deals a set base dmg based on skill used plus base power and it benefits from all buffs/bonuses/debuffs/etc. Because it procs only from crits it is itself a crit thus benefits from crit severity as well. Deep gash makes up 15-40% of gwf dps, depending on dps of party (higher dps groups mobs die faster and less deep gash ticks are applied).
Not sure what you mean by $160 items. Everything zen related is cosmetic or convenience. If you are talking about tenebrous enchants they've been nerfed repeatedly and are quite useless in pve (and probably in pvp too. Everyone i know offloaded these when the last nerf was announced).
They did nerf animation cancelling on wms. Wicked now out performs it in aoe dmg ignoring the debuff, which is achievable by sm gwf by weaving wms then wicked together. The animation nerf hurt gwf dps but the deep gash changes make up for it for a net 0 change in gwf dps ability.
Groovy, thanks a lot! Sounds like I'll need to actually read the past six months patch notes after all though. Especially since it sounds like the fusion system went through some kind of overhaul. Good thing I saved all my gems, maybe they'll be useful now.
Cheers
GWF is viable in both PVP and PVE, as a matter of fact good gwf are more than viable.
TOP 3 pve class and often seen in the same team: DC CW GWF.
PVP? GWF hands down OP. There is a reason everyone roll one.
the patch notes has been up, and they haven't touched the GWFs at all, REJOICE!!!!!!!!!!!
When I was still playing it was 'hands down' the worst class. Or at least they were kicked from virtually every team. Maybe it was just perception, but it was the case. Doesn't really matter though, rolled a ranger instead of fooling with my GWF again.
I find it interesting that GWF would have replaced Rogue's in the trifecta, seems unlikely to me but then again people have had a year to grind gear.
this sums up the situation of the class ...
a lot of people is based on pvp to say that the class is the easiest to play. in pve this is not even remotely true. damage, potentially, is loud, but still lack a certain logistics.
My current bet is an investment in the battle fury (decrease countdown / stamina shared). even the worst gwf would still help the team efficiently.
"the patch notes has been up, and they haven't touched the GWFs at all, REJOICE!!!!!!!!!!! "
Just for history sake: GWF has always been a beast, in beta and afterwards as a sentinel it was immortal, it could agro a whole dungeon and survive while killing them all. Only time gwf had a problem was the first month or so after module 1 until roar got the determination buff and GWF was back on track.
Only reason why GWF seems op now is cause of SF enchant, class otherwise seems balanced to me.
man enough with this BS, "i have yet to see blah blah" how would you see if youre not taking gwfs in your group?
Ran VT with a GWF on my CW 2 days ago that actually out DPSed me. First time any class has out dpsed my CW in a while without running ahead of the group to try to kill the weak trash solo. I still had him on AOE, but his ST beat mine hands down.
Looking at the Feat descriptions says that Deep Gash is still a flat 15% of power. Supposedly this can now crit and benefits from debuff's, anything else it does? Make cookies? Or are those two changes basically it?
um no. GWF are the most powerful class atm and are second only to CW for most desirable class in groups.
Suppose you hit a critical reaping strike against 5 opponents , doing 15k each. over 5 seconds bleed almost double this value. Exactly . The enemy theoretically receive 15k damage to the eye and the other 15k in 5 easy installments.
His reaction is to think " gee, 30k Atwill - solo play - per head is op! "; " no." First the bleed always replace another on time and damage, second for both the cw and the ranger ( our brothers in aoe ) have a high "boom" damage : 're ten yards of the enemy ; both will have cleaned the most fragile while you 're still running (yes , it happens ) . This is bad for the gwf ? " No" , why we now have a " specialty" .
Gave an example of fh . When he finally found the room where my friend was , I found a party of low gs and gf who do not know their role . What we decided to do? Nuke . I finished in third place in the overall damage with 13k gains only in the last fight ( paingiver 20k ) - facing 2094672067 enemies simultaneously. How is it possible ? bleed the account to accumulate the unstoppable ( in the case of the destroyer ) . In this " anarchic " scenario there is NOTHING that can compete . For pve the t1/t5 feats have a hellish synergy aoe damage and tank ( or else not surprising , or not working as it should) .
Now on gwf in general: how gwf know how to enjoy the changes in the class ? 300. How not gwf know what gwf can do ? The friends of these 300.
The rest comes down to players who think , " with some justification " , that class remains useless, or those who think the clean gwf pve and pvp with the same build . This second group does not worry me more in view of the changes planned for pvp
how the class is on the rise, it is attracting the kind of player who does not have much notion about the limits of each class. hence this explains also why the reputation of the class did not improve in general.
gwf is better than it was at some point, because one (deep gash) feat was revamped and because they have access to GF IV. Still, not as good as in Beta, before all the nerfs on everything.
Are gwfs better in pve solo now ? Yes somehow. But is 4 CW & 1DC still the norm in dungeons? Yes
Are gwfs better in pvp now? Yes somehow. They can still be easily defeated by any other class but not head on, the other classes have to use specific tactics.
So, depending on whether you compare the present gwf with what it was in mod1 or in Closed beta, you may say (or not) that there was an improvement.
Just, the more or less ok current pvp gwf and the more or less ok current pve gwf are not the same kind of gwf.
Not to start a flame war or anything, but I kind of feel like a little kid saying, "it's not fair!" a lot at the notion that CWs have many fewer target-capped abilities than anybody else...*cough* Shard of the Endless Avalanche *cough*...
Eh, it's an old hat flame war so I don't even bother. I probably shouldn't have made the topic as...flame-baity...but it's how I felt about it when I left. (And no, I never really felt GWF was bad. It's just other people did.) Also, CW have more abilities that are capped than you might think.
Now, I've tested the 'new' WMS and it still seems to be somewhat cancelable...at least with Reaping Strike...but I still haven't managed to get anyone to say how the new Deep Gash is at all different from how it was six months to a year ago. I'd rather not spec into it just to find out it's still vastly overvalued by the community.
It's almost impossible to understand what Zacazu is saying, but I'm guessing that Deep Gash doesn't do the same damage as the At-Will that proc's it. The tool-tip for the feat literally hasn't changed from when I was playing, still reads as 15% of Power over 5 seconds, which when I left meant that it did something to the tune of 80-100 damage per tick.
It could not crit, and it was unaffected by debuffs. People raved about Deep Gash then, too, although I could never see much justification for it. Maybe I should make a new thread specifically asking about it, but then again I bet I could do a forum search and find someone elses...
(It appears that Deep Gash was changed, and might or might not be bugged with it's crits. Looking at some of the parses in http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?544221-Deep-gash&highlight=Deep+Gash and http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?568321-GWF-deep-gash-devs-please-take-a-look-at-this&highlight=Deep+Gash was illuminating.
Is something i would like to know as well (from a designer if possible).. It seems it is a % from your crit probably multiply with some ability factor cause from my limited testing it varies.
Now as others have said you want to crit with your big swing, but from my logs it seems that if you follow with an at-will that crits the bleed is refreshed with the new one and you lose dmg so from what i;ve seen you;d better hit something else or you lose dmg. (limited testing so feel free to correct me)
I had already shown my own logs at the time of the preview and nothing was challenged by the devs . Only by theorists " gwf is to defender and the problem is the dungeon ." Long may it continue .
Cancellation : In the tactical sense wms still works .
Cw vs Gwf : Well , people always revolted me that given the obvious fact that gwf was the worst class in module 1 , said " Gwf is defender , the problem is the dungeon " , are players who want their thrones intact , are gwf love ( love sucks ) .
First a team cw , considering the synergy between damage / control / distance survived better than a team gwf in any hostile scenario ( I imagine the same holds for the gf ) . second, and most obvious , the gwf is a part of the game , and not vice versa (see Module 2 proving it ) .
Currently however, given the synergy between unstoppable and bleed - in the case of the destroyer - and the increase in general damages rather a gwf theoretically survives better than a cw . Turns out the cw , and protect yourself , that is still the best protects team members and and maximizing the potential of same . This is the real gulf between the two classes .
How much this bothers me now ? Nothing . Why would I care what other class can do if gwf still does not do what is right ? For example the blessed battle fury . He shares one quarter of your bonus ? No. He does not share the stamina that would maximize the logistics team ( guard gf / rogue builds / dodges in general) .
The destroyer feat drops 1/4 of the countdown encounter ? No. Only 2.7 sec .
If my battle fury had 11 sec as is right , and I regained quarter of the stamina of the team members also , I not only increase my performance much , as the performance of all. Encounter that I can use that will do more damage than the rotation of an entire team with increased damage to 25 % damage / power for 5 sec every 11 sec ? ( 5 % damage vs 5 opponents = 25 % in " general damages ." In our case , 20 % vs 5 = " 100 %" or 1 extra enemy target by damage aoe ) .
These are points that should be our focus .
Funny is the point of the deep gash. I think it's very reasonable that the bleeding caused by ibs is larger than the sure strike as much as I think a stab hurts me more than a scratch. measured this feat is perfect.
The aesthetic problem (and mechanically balanced) is that the damage of the next bleed always cancel the previous damage, it being higher or lower.
in this sense the deep gash is a critical multiplier whose own inherent dynamics gwf cancels ... then I find that wearing battle fury / powers long time and high damage - reaping strike - compensate. the gwf now has a rotation and a challenge "keep always bleed with high sticks".
but as the pattern of damage in the game is VERY high, the best that you do is beat all without thinking too much, otherwise the enemies will be dead before you "finish its rotation."