Do you think the Foundry is a good counter against "Content Locusts"?

lonnehart

Only learned of the term recently. And how WoW suffered from their influence. For those who don't know, here's the short of it.

The "Content Locusts" are players who are the most advanced of us, even past Hardcore players. They're the ones who get through all the content extremely fast and always level up the fastest. It's implied that it's these players who complain about nothing to do at max level, and will complain very loudly that the game was too easy. And they are also the smallest minority in any playerbase...

If I read correctly, Blizzard tried to statisfy this group by adjusting the difficulty level of the game. The end result of this? The majority of the playerbase found the content TOO HARD to get through and started to leave in droves. Luckily Blizzard had the resources to withstand this mistake and toned the difficulty levels back down. After all, it's better to keep the quiet playerbase majority and lose the loudmouth Content Locust minority, right?


I always figured the "fast leveling" of Neverwinter would make them go away, but if the General Forums are any indication...

Anyways....


So, do you all think the Foundry is a good counter to this group, or do they consume our quests faster than we can crank them out?

rogu3ish

I think UGC (in whatever form it takes) is the best hope, though a certain segment will never be satisfied with what's available. For those who like PvP, that's usually enough (assuming new maps/game types get added frequently enough) because just playing against another person is sufficient to make the experience interesting and different.

For those that stick to PvE, no company will have the resources to churn out compelling new content frequently enough. Some companies (like Blizzard currently IMO) aren't really even able to keep up with what I would call 'above average' consumption, let alone how the locusts chew through content.

UGC is definitely a good answer, assuming it's done in a way that keeps quality content generators interested in working for free. I'm not sure many locusts are interested in things like the Foundry in Neverwinter, though, because at max level it provides almost no benefit to advancement. There's also so much of it available that there's no ability to "Conquer it First" and lord that fact over the other locusts. When the Foundry is done right (IMHO) it's about experiencing the story, the environment, and the experience created by the Author. If a locust was actually interested in all those things, they wouldn't a locust

elcymerian

I would agree with the above. (Although IMHO pvp has no value and wastes a lot of resources/efforts, etc. that could/should be put elsewhere.)

The "locusts" are gone through the 1st couple of weeks and aren't around when good, decent, or playable UGC is available. For the RPer and the PVEer that likes a game's story are the ones I aim my Foundry quests at. As flawed as they might be at times.

But it was an interesting question. I've never heard of the term either, so no I'm smarter.

antonkyle

elcymerian wrote: »

I would agree with the above. (Although IMHO pvp has no value and wastes a lot of resources/efforts, etc. that could/should be put elsewhere.)

I could say that about much of the PVE content. Each to there own.

beckylunatic

lonnehart wrote: »

So, do you all think the Foundry is a good counter to this group, or do they consume our quests faster than we can crank them out?

I suspect the group you are describing are basically the same people content to run the same old Foundry 4x per day just to get their ADs. They don't play other quests because of "bad loot".

zahinder

I think it could be, but not unless Cryptic ever manages to get it under the heel of farms and exploits.

zoiks100

No, because there is no such thing as "content locusts", it's a phrase made up by lazy/incompetent developers to excuse their laziness/lack of competence.

Developers will always produce content slower than players will get through it, this isn't news to anyone. People who complain about lack of content do so because a game has less than they expected, and that expectation is based off of some other game they played that had more.

And for the most part these expectations are perfectly fair, even when comparing an old game with a new one. Fair because both games typically have the similar costs involved, and fair because most people compare only relevant content. WoW may have 10+ raids, but only a few are relevant and I've never heard anyone complain that a new game didn't have enough low level raids with gear that was pretty much only useful as a vanity item, they complain about a lack of good max level tier gear raids.

Of course people have different expectations. Some players want end game content, raids, gear progression, detailed raid encounter mechanics. Some players want leveling content, story, a rich variety of locales to explore, complex skill trees, challenging combat in solo/small group encounters. Some players want pvp content, pvp gear, pvp maps, detailed combat mechanics, world pvp. And some want a mix of the above or something unique, mystery mechanics, adventure mechanics, rts mechanics, vehicle combat, etc. etc. And being that MMOs tend to try to include a variety of content, the players aren't "content locusts". they're just focused on the content they prefer. To expect otherwise isn't very bright.


As far as the foundry goes, I don't believe it will work to otherwise keep players playing this game. There's no carrot on the end of that stick for most, and there's no good quality control for the players who find the carrot to be the "something different" which can be created by clever use of the foundry tools.

matiagronx

Locusts are locusts with money, thats the problem. If only companies realized that not all money is good...but wait..we are on earth..right...

rogu3ish

zoiks100 wrote: »

No, because there is no such thing as "content locusts", it's a phrase made up by lazy/incompetent developers to excuse their laziness/lack of competence.

As someone who has been playing MMOs since EQ, I have to disagree with this. I've played many MMOs at release, and there's definitely a pattern. A subset of the population chews through the initial content at an incredible pace, begins to complain there's nothing to do, foretells the death of the game as their friends (who are also content locusts) leave, then eventually move on themselves to another game. If developers try to limit progress to prevent the over-consumption of content, they're met with complaints that advancement is too slow.

It's easy to call developers lazy and incompetent. I'm sure there are at least a few, if not many, devs out there that are just that. I highly doubt that the majority of devs could be categorized that way, though, and every MMO I have ever played has lacked a significant amount of end-game content at release. It's more an economic matter...it's difficult to create tons of end-game content before you start getting paid. That's especially true when you know the majority of your playerbase won't work through the existing content before you have a chance to expand it.

sockmunkey

beckylunatic wrote: »

I suspect the group you are describing are basically the same people content to run the same old Foundry 4x per day just to get their ADs. They don't play other quests because of "bad loot".

This exactly. The foundry will never make these people happy. It offers nothing that they want, short of exploitation. And when the exploits are gone and when the main rewards change from things, to basic entertainment. They will moan, complain, and move onto the next big thing.

tulipvorlax

I think many types of players exist. Apparently many players expect each game to make them sweat, and if not, they say it was boring.
Not my case.
I like to take my time when playing a game (unless the game dont let us, using a timer or something).
I generally dont rush to the end of a game, sometimes by fear of loosing interest.
So i understand perfectly that people reaching the end of the game could loose interest in playing it.
What i dont understand is been that hasty to reach the end.
I've been "complainning" about that type of players since i play multiplayer games (that bring me back more than 10 years ago).
About two weeks after release of GW2, there were already players complainning about the absence of end game content.
Since then, i saw many times some players saying in Lion Arch (the main town of that game) that they didn't log to it for the past 6 months and asking if the game had new content now.
To conclude with this wandering on GW2's side, i want to say that the game had many updates adding a fair amount of content, but never enough to satisfy that kind of players you call content locust (or not in the form they want it to be).
Want they want seems to be a never ending story.
Maybe that behavior is more apparent on a free game like Neverwinter.
Should i blame the immaturity of a part of the player base ?
Or is it just a normal situation with a free game.
I must admit, i dont have a lot of experience with free to play games.
I tried many of them, but on most i didn't went very far.

Another thing i want to talk about here is something that has happened to me that seemed vaguely related to the main subject.
I was in game at the Tower District.
Some guy was asking tricks to level faster.
I dared to speak my opinion on this saying that for me the game was giving to much XP for everyting making me miss part of the content like skirmishes and dungeons.
He said that this was the dumbest thing he read ingame so far.

I'm telling this just to show that for some people the progression is always too slow and that for some others like me it can be too fast.
This situation contributed in making me stop playing the game for now.
That and the fact that i'm working on my first (french) Foundry quest.
I dont think my quest will be finished anytime soon.
So, i think it's so true that foundry authors will never be able to produce quests fast enough to keep (some of) the player base busy.

On my part, i dont have enough time to play most of the currently availlables foundry.
I'm pretty sure many of thoses will get deleted by their author (to be able to make more) before i find the time.

By the way, the word locust bring in my memory some scene from Independence Day :

President Thomas Whitmore: They're like locusts. They're moving from planet to planet... their whole civilization. After they've consumed every natural resource they move on...

Source : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116629/quotes

jedite2012

I always hated this, i think blizzard caused it

they always add realm first achievements and it just sickens me that the people who do it, never appreciated the new content, like wont bother to look at the scenery that developers took time to make it as beautiful and detailed as possible.

eldarth

Content Locusts most certainly exist. I've been playing MMOs since Meridian 59.
There is always a race to be the first to the highest level. Then the inevitable whining (like spoiled, immature little brats that never got spanked as children) about lack of "end-game" content. Hey, if it's the end of the game -- go the hell away and play something else. Unfortunately once they reach end-game they morph into PvP races -- first to get PvP purple gear, or the highest "gear score," etc. Typically the development company pushes most of it's development effort to making end-game no longer end-game and pushing more and more PvP "balancing" and ranks of elite "raid" gear. Meanwhile, those of us enjoying the scenery, the story, the exploration, are left to wither and die as low to mid level content remains thin and repetitive.

Some of the most fun D&D sessions I've had have been with lower/mid-level characters.
It's about the journey. These A.D.D. kiddies ARE in the minority - they are just the loudest.

trishani

In EQ1 days we used to call what you describe as min/maxer's. They do whatever it takes to take the most direct route, most efficient time spent to complete whatever the current objective is. They are "chess players" and strategists who don't like wasting time on inefficient tactics, gear, etc. Definitely type A personalities online.

I think these people are a bit different than what I think of as "content locusts" who just play ALOT and consume content fast simply because of the raw number of hours put in as compared to the average player. They aren't necessarily min/max types, they are just the kind who can take off from work/school etc to feed their 6, 8, 12+ hr daily addiction.

Both cause issues for Dev's. I think some types of content locusts actually would enjoy foundries, especially of people who they subscribe to. And I think some content locusts would actually be good authors as well. However I don't see the min/max player base as ever seeing UGC as anything useful until it drops something they see as a strategical advantage.

ellindar1

I certainly think it COULD be. But in order for it to be that we have to be given these tools:

1. Bosses
2. All creature skins in the game along with encounters for each type. (BEHOLDERS, DRAGONS, GEL CUBES!)
3. Multiple story threads for one quest. In order to give the player choices that actually do impact the quest, not like the pretend ones we've had to come up with so far.
4. Ability to use MORE variables. Right now we have "CHARACTER NAME" we need SO much. We need to be able to base dialog, visibility on things like class and race! A good example, in my Melee Magthere quest if I know they are a Drow I would totally handle the dialog differently. And no, I'm not going to put a guy there saying "hey are you a drow?" like he can't tell for himself.
5. Did i mention... BOSSES and to expand on this again... SCRIPTED boss fights... boss does THIS type of encounter at 100% health, boss does THIS at 50%, etc.

These items are sorely needed to make REAL end game content. If players could make full on 60 minute raids, with using all of the above, the Foundry COULD be seen as a way to appease that player base.(IMO)

gornonthecob

elcymerian wrote: »

I would agree with the above. (Although IMHO pvp has no value and wastes a lot of resources/efforts, etc. that could/should be put elsewhere.)

The "locusts" are gone through the 1st couple of weeks and aren't around when good, decent, or playable UGC is available. For the RPer and the PVEer that likes a game's story are the ones I aim my Foundry quests at. As flawed as they might be at times.

But it was an interesting question. I've never heard of the term either, so no I'm smarter.

^ This. It's virtually everything I was going to post. But like the good gorn I am, I read all the posts first

zoiks100

The first commercial multiplayer online RPG I played was Island of Kesmai, back in 1985-6. And before that I'd played a few multiplayer real-time RPGs on BBS's.

And there have ALWAYS been "hardcore gamers"/"min-maxers"/"powergamers"/"munchkins" at every game's launch. Players who play a LOT and "finish" the game first for whatever advantages that gives them, real or imagined.

The "content locust" title implies that they're the only ones complaining about lack of endgame/content. That's not true though. In SWTOR, which is where I first saw the phrase used, the bulk of the playerbase hit 50 only a few days to a couple weeks after the hardcore element. And it was them much moreso than the hardcore players that complained. You have to realize, the hardcore players either "finish" and move on to another game or truly love the game. How do you think they got through the content so quickly? They'd already played through it at least once in beta.

In the specific case of SWTOR, players were right to complain, not only did the game have less content than WoW, it had WAY less content then the producers of the game had said it had just prior to launch. Not only were they disappointed, they were duped. So in the shadow of that colossal failure some of it's developers made up excuses, "content should have lasted 3 months, but content locusts devoured it." (This is a game with 50-100 hours of content to reach level 50, over 90 days that's a whopping ~0.6 to ~1.1 hours of daily gameplay. Which is extremely casual play near launch.)

Anyway, "content locust" is an excuse, a bad one, for shoddy game development in comparison to other, similar, previous games in the same genre that simply provided the player with more of what they wanted to do.

And I certainly don't think that all game developers are incompetent or lazy by the way, only the ones that would use the "content locust" excuse.

raphaeldisanto

I remember reading a TOR dev post where they said that they were amazed at the intensity of playing hours some players put in after launch.

You'd think that devs would realize that some players play 24/7.

But as a content creator (And I don't mean foundry author, I mean someone who's primary activities and hobbies all center around creating entertainment content rather than consuming it), I don't think "content locust" is an excuse by lazy devs. Generally the "not enough content" claims are made by people who have absolutely no idea how long it takes to actually make the content.

I see the "lazy dev" accusation thrown around a lot, and it's actually one of the things that caused me to leave the video game development industry. It's a thankless job (literally) and you work insane hours for very little pay and mostly all you get is endless criticism from whiney entitled gamers.

These days I make stuff for myself, on my time and on my schedule and if people don't like what I create or think I'm not creating it fast enough, too bad for them. They say he who pays the piper calls the tune. Well, I don't pay cryptic any money in order to be able to play Neverwinter, so I don't get to call any of the tunes they play.

savagedeacon

lonnehart wrote: »

I always figured the "fast leveling" of Neverwinter would make them go away, but if the General Forums are any indication...

Anyways....


So, do you all think the Foundry is a good counter to this group, or do they consume our quests faster than we can crank them out?

The point is that the " content locust" among other things is the first to complain that the game, any game, do not let you to lvl fast enough. The " content locust" want to reach the lvl cap the same day that he has created a new character. You quoted WoW, when in that game they launched the Death Knight(that started at lvl 55 , if I remember correctly) there were players that wanted that any char that they created, after the first, would start likewise at lvl 55.
The " content locust" really don't care about content , his /her but is to have his/her chars to maximum lvl, when they complain about the lack of end game content what they are really asking for is a raise of the lvl cap and , of course, for them the chance to burn the new lvls in three minutes top

runis12

rogu3ish wrote: »

When the Foundry is done right (IMHO) it's about experiencing the story, the environment, and the experience created by the Author. If a locust was actually interested in all those things, they wouldn't a locust

Saved me from typing the same wall of text.

chili1179

runis12 wrote: »

Saved me from typing the same wall of text.

Me too. That and laziness.

lonnehart

I guess I can see the "Content Locust" and us like diners in a fancy restaurant. While we want to savor the flavors of the food, thus eating slowly and enjoying our meal, the "Content Locust" will quickly shove the food down his throat, then complain that the food didn't taste good enough (because he ate too fast to taste anything) and that there's not enough food, then he'll talk about how the restaurant will fail due to the poor quality and small quantity of of the food being served...

zahinder

The only solution to content locusts is to disallow goodbye posts on forum and offer them good luck with their next mmo.

A working Foundry is a solution for -regular- content limitations.

I'm looking forward to seeing a working Foundry someday. EQ Next is promising.

raphaeldisanto

EQ Next allows you to make art assets. Not quests.

lonnehart

It's funny how a large developed game like World of Warcraft gets a large dent in its playerbase thanks to Content Locusts. Or rather... developers attempting to appease them. I'll bet they even exist in childrens games. Or worse... they could show up in a My Little Pony MMO if one ever came out... O_O

zoiks100

It really bothers me that so many people buy into this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

Think logically for a moment. These "content locusts" exist solely to rush through game content at breakneck speed so that they can complain about the lack of content once they're done? Are they the Count of Montecristo of trolls, the Count of MontecrisTROLL if you will? The only way there could be any significant number of people willing to go to that ridiculous extreme was if they were being paid to do so by rival companies, and once those tinfoil hats come out there's no point in logic anymore.

They do not exist, not in any quantity worth discussing. Players who complain about lack of content do so because....the game did not have as much content as they wanted/expected. And their wants/expectations are invariably based on playing other games, which had more content.

Is it unfair to go into a game with expectations? Is it too much of a burden for a game developer to include a similar amount of content in their game that another(others) in the genre have?

I don't think so, maybe you do I suppose.

zahinder

People have unrealistic expectations.

Is it really hard to imagine a large number of people who, in an environment heavily designed to put everyone in a Skinner box, ends up with people rushing around gorging themselves silly?

And is it hard to imagine people complaining irrationally about their experience?

How long have you been on the Internet?

eldarth

zoiks100 wrote: »

They do not exist, not in any quantity worth discussing. Players who complain about lack of content do so because....the game did not have as much content as they wanted/expected. And their wants/expectations are invariably based on playing other games, which had more content.

Content Locusts, or blithering imbeciles who compare content from an established 5+ year old game to a just released game.
Doesn't matter - they're pretty much major idiots no matter what you call them.

zoiks100

I've been on the internet long enough to know that it's just an exaggeration of reality, thanks primarily to anonymity. But it doesn't CHANGE basic human behavior. People do not go to extreme lengths to do something of no perceived benefit to them.

If you're doing something where the results are never even close to your expectations, you will quickly stop doing it. You won't keep trying, unless you are clinically insane. On the other hand, "chasing the dragon" is something that is quite common, where results are close, but never quite reach expectations, then you will keep trying, each time getting more and more frustrated. And that is what the majority of people who complain about lack of content suffer from.


As far as it being unfair to compare a 9 year old MMO to a brand new one, it isn't. While the older game most likely will have more for players to do in it than any new one will, it also suffers from being older. Most players are tired of it, they long for something new. That's the problem, when they complain about lack of content, they aren't just saying that there's less in the new game. They're saying that it's practically the SAME tired content as in the old game AND there's less of it. If developers tried something new, or at least made the cloned content BETTER, the players would complain less about there being not as much of it.

sockmunkey

zoiks100 wrote: »

I've been on the internet long enough to know that it's just an exaggeration of reality, thanks primarily to anonymity. But it doesn't CHANGE basic human behavior. People do not go to extreme lengths to do something of no perceived benefit to them.

What makes you think there is no benefit to them? Most often there is, even if its only short term. One only needs to dig a little to find all the posts on day two of open beta. Images of players who reached level cap at extreme rates. In some cases by spending thousands of real dollars to fast track it through leadership crafting.

This is fact, people did this. Obviously, there was a reason and benefit to it. In most cases, these players made back that money multiple times over by being the first to get and sell items. Setting the prices in the AH. Being the first has benefits. These people often made fortunes.

But like any locust, once fat, happy, and gorged. They move on to someplace else. Someplace else they can be first again, and once again gorge themselves.

lonnehart

The few people who completed the content did get some benefit. The benefit of being FIRST to "win" the game. Probably to stoke their egoes in the belief that they can lord over the rest of the playerbase that is still slogging at least midway through the content. They probably just followed the sparkly trail and blew straight through the dialogue as well. Ask them about a few details, like what Karnov was planning to do with the king's crown, why Vansi felt bold enough to try and take Neverwinter's Tower District, or why the Lynching Tree became a source of evil and they wouldn't be able to tell you much.


Still, if what I'm seeing here is any indication, Foundry content won't satisfy the majority of them. Now if there was some sort of counter or accolade that they could display that tells everyone how many Foundry quests have been completed...