teepussiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I really dislike when people discuss matters and generalise.
All i read here is personal opinions, please use them as such and not make generalising arguments that have no weight, unless you really have huge community your running and know their opinion on to the matter.
Personally i would require full refund in money back to my bank if they did wipe. Even if i got that i would be left unhappy (while i agree the current situation is messed), but i value my time and now that ive seen game much futher its more and more clear the game has huge design flaws or someone might call them features. So my personal vote on the matter is that i would take my money and walk away, or if i did decide to play again it would be mostly play CW or something that seems to have most of the fun as most of the stuff in game are subject to your CC, so your like chessmaster.
Seeing how people stream end game boss fights they pretty much all consist of CW, Clerics knocking stuff of the cliffs and aggro managment or the usual expected stuff isnt there. Lvl 60 GWF im left impression im sort of handicap to take with for groups, even if i might pull my weight, i get this feel back of my head that as other class i could do this or that much better and be more vital for the success. Overall the current meta on most fights support this control huge mass of adds and throw them of cliff if possible, or otherwise just control them without getting hit at all. Bosses telegraph their moves and huge red messages pop to warn you to move, so most fights its adds that are reason for wipes.
For all of the people in this thread saying 'I want my money back in my bank!", that's not how it works with their model.
A simple analogy for you - You bought a set list of groceries from the store to make a certain dish being advertised with a complimentary recipe from said store. You somehow manage to botch the directions of preparing the dish. You don't get to suddenly go back to the store and demand a refund on the ground beef you burned.
When you buy Zen, you buy it from PWE for PWE games. You don't buy Zen from PWE for NWO. If they were to do a wipe, which they have already said they wouldn't; you would NOT receive your hard earned/spent dollars. You would only receive the Zen you purchased back into your accounts Zen wallet. That is the only legal obligation they have to you. To try and charge back on goods used is considered credit/wire fraud and is a criminal offense that you can be prosecuted on.
Again, they have stated they will NOT wipe and that's fine. But don't asininely assume that you are somehow entitled to your money back. You are simply entitled to an allotment of your goods purchased.
Mmm. The fault is not the game's for having imperfections, it is in the players for EXPLOITING them. Hence the term exploit. No "roll back", no "wipe".....unless it is of the offender's accounts. Leave us honest players alone, please. I don't want to be punished for someone else's behavior. That only happens in kindergarten and the military.
[...]
The games industry was more honest before all this f2p/founders/prepurchase nonsense.
these are dark times, may something better emerge from the ruins of this coming gaming apocalypse..
And also..
Doomed, i tell you!
Personnally I think the problem started when the consummers massively showed they were willing to pay in order to get into a beta or to preorder a game.
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eyepatchdudeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
LOL. You give me to much credit. I've only been lurking like last 2 weeks. Just leeching, since I have not paid a single penny to PWI.
I guess, I'm just an offended consumer, and offended the way they conduct their business.
Doesn't mean I havnt enjoyed the game.
I don't give my money to devs and pubs who operate in the shadows.
Just for emphasis
You're offended that you're playing a game, without contributing in any way to the publisher and developer. And justify that by saying that they "Operate in the Shadows".....
I actually read every post in this thread. It seems like this is an issue that divides us almost 50/50. However , I get the impression that those supporting the wipe/roll back are thinking more of the future of the game itself. While those no wanting it are pointing out problems it would cause themselves..normally,just a couple days grind..At this point the game has not been out long enough to be frightened of a wipe. Further more, the xp grind is nothing to be concerned with, its pretty easy and fast..
I can say this, between the accounts of my wife and myself, we have spent in the shop to support the game. We do not expect this level of exploitation to be allowed to stand.
If something does not happen I would not be a paying customer in the future.
Thank you to everyone for well thought out arguments and comments. We need to get the bottom of this in one way or another.
I still say a wipe/rollback would be the most fair.
Sure.. Of course. the Guardians and Heros packages were advertised with a head start.. How well do you think the community would react to a rollback, and the free players being locked out for 5 days? Or do you support removing the benefit from the packages after they've been paid for?
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eyepatchdudeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
removed 10char
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hatey0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm down for a rollback. I could have exploited and didnt, and now am pretty far behind those who did.
Full Wipe, only Zen restored is for directly purchased zen. I'm not just cool with that, that's pretty much a requirement before I'll spend a penny of money on this game,
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lexthegreatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Full Wipe, only Zen restored is for directly purchased zen. I'm not just cool with that, that's pretty much a requirement before I'll spend a penny of money on this game,
Sadly there will be no rollback. They already confirmed.
BUT the longer term effects of not having a wipe are likely to cause far more issues than the short-term pain of a wipe.
I don't really agree there. Long term the game will theoretically have more content with a Tier 3+ set of equipment. The cheap epics people got from these exploits (which are now apparently fixed) will not be as good as future sets. So the problem goes away whether there's a wipe or not eventually. Not to mention the more people that gear up to the T1/T2 point, the less impact people who bought all those epics cheap will have - everyone will have the same gear regardless of how they got there.
And finally for people that don't PvP (yes we exist) this is pretty much a non-issue anyway.
I'm thinking, since this issue isn't going to affect Zen sells, no one really gives a happy ****. I, for one, won't be throwing anymore cash at a game that doesn't have the decency to do SOMETHING about unbalancing issues like those. They're going to watch their playerbase - the actual, good, intellectual playerbase - disintegrate, while they cater to 12-year-olds running amok with Daddy's wallet. Sure, it's a profitable road to take, for a few months. Then they get bored and go to exploit the balls off of something else - in the meantime, you're left with a dead game, because no one's going to care when ESO and FFXIV drop. This was going to be a game-changer, so to say; free-to-play and wonderful. However, if this is just a quick cash-grab from PWE like it's looking to be, then who's going to stick with it when an actual game with a committed team of developers is released? It's sad, very sad, because this game had SO MUCH potential, but a facemelt error like that is just... It doesn't speak very highly of your company. And even if rollbacks weren't the answer, even if you sought out the exploiters and stripped them, even if you told us you intended to do something about it, I'd feel inclined to stay, but if PWE's honestly too busy counting their haul from the latest pillage to tend to it, then I'm out.
It's Open Beta, it should never happen to wiped or hard rollback but to deal with it. Whoever exploit it, they should be dealt with. If it "Close" Beta, it will possible to wiped on every patch but it's "Open" Beta.
It's Open Beta, it should never happen to wiped or hard rollback but to deal with it. Whoever exploit it, they should be dealt with. If it "Close" Beta, it will possible to wiped on every patch but it's "Open" Beta.
And yet plenty of games that go open beta...wipe at release.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
It's Open Beta, it should never happen to wiped or hard rollback but to deal with it. Whoever exploit it, they should be dealt with. If it "Close" Beta, it will possible to wiped on every patch but it's "Open" Beta.
Beta actually up until recently meant 'wipe before launch'. It's as mentioned - PR types have changed how the word was defined and use 'beta' to mean 'soft launch'.
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lexthegreatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm thinking, since this issue isn't going to affect Zen sells, no one really gives a happy ****. I, for one, won't be throwing anymore cash at a game that doesn't have the decency to do SOMETHING about unbalancing issues like those. They're going to watch their playerbase - the actual, good, intellectual playerbase - disintegrate, while they cater to 12-year-olds running amok with Daddy's wallet. Sure, it's a profitable road to take, for a few months. Then they get bored and go to exploit the balls off of something else
My thoughts exactly. I rarely play anymore, just log on to pray and lurk through the forums checking news.
Very, very disappointed that nothing was done about all this exploiting. Could have all been fixed in one move with a simple wipe.
I didn't exploit OR buy items after I found out about the exploit (weeks ago), meaning that my level 60 still has some blues. I meet the gearscore requirement for the dungeon I want to run, but the few times I tried - I had terrible experiences. Once I was literally told to "Go buy some cheap purples of the AH you ****."
When I replied that I don't want to cheat, I was actually kicked from the group. Lol. Great player base we have here...
My thoughts exactly. I rarely play anymore, just log on to pray and lurk through the forums checking news.
Very, very disappointed that nothing was done about all this exploiting. Could have all been fixed in one move with a simple wipe.
I didn't exploit OR buy items after I found out about the exploit (weeks ago), meaning that my level 60 still has some blues. I meet the gearscore requirement for the dungeon I want to run, but the few times I tried - I had terrible experiences. Once I was literally told to "Go buy some cheap purples of the AH you ****."
When I replied that I don't want to cheat, I was actually kicked from the group. Lol. Great player base we have here...
Why would you play a game like this if you're going to take a moral stand against cheap epics? The game is designed to let you buy anything. PVP epics, seal epics, etc are all likely to be "honest" epics.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
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lexthegreatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Why would you play a game like this if you're going to take a moral stand against cheap epics? The game is designed to let you buy anything. PVP epics, seal epics, etc are all likely to be "honest" epics.
It's not a moral stand against cheap epics, it is a moral stand against EXPLOITED epics.
- Seals were farmed to no end by combining two exploits. I even had ex guild mates do this. You could very easily get hundreds of them per hour as a GF.
- PvP epics are AFK epics. I earned mine without buying them from the AH, but they do not cover everything. There are still rings, amulets, etc.
Yeah I would like to see a complete rollback but I doubt they'll do that. The least we can hope for is damage control, but I doubt they will delete all exploited items and move all the AD back to it's respective owner either. So I guess all we can do is be happy they patched most exploits and hope they'll be faster in the future.
maaaaaaaaan. i am not feeling a wipe. i played this game legit as h***. no exploiting i enjoyed the missions a lot so when invited to do foundry exploits i declined. as for this whole cat thing, i have no idea at all whats goin on. for the past couple days i have just been logging on to get my invocations done before they erase my ardent coins. yeah i realize it doesnt take terribly long to level but i played this game ALOT (like 20 straight hours on the second day a lot)! maybe id take a wipe if they fixed everything including balancing out the classes but i would still be a lil butt hurt (its kind of a pain to get groups for a rogue. since there are so many and some people were insane and spent 200 on a game that they are talkin about wiping, had a head start, there is always someone with better gear with you). plus i have spent money on this game and its only in beta (which makes no sense to me but i wanted to support the game because i think its amazing and has the potential to be around for a while). The main reason i will be pissed is the fact that i didnt do anything wrong. why should i be penalized? i vote ban hammer!
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aspen1979Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 64
edited May 2013
Forget your player leveling, did you even think about crafters leveling? The time put into the last 24 hrs out weighs any player leveling in levels. and what of those that did dailies and other things like resource collecting? Stop thinking about yourself, think of everyone as a whole.
I think this last issue with AH is worthy of a roll back since we don't know just how bad some people exploited it, for all anyone knows people were bidding -100,000,000 AD basically maxing themselves out on AD, which wouldn't surprise me since there are people in the game who have no shame exploiting the hell out of something just because it makes it easier or gives them a lot of something like currency(gold, AD) or items without any effort. They'll probably try to fight whatever they made being taken from them too, which is just sad.
I'm not saying a full roll back, just a roll back to when the issue started, because obviously no one deserves the AD/items gained from bidding-AD on the AH.
I seen these commments I agree with a rollback, but only to the degree of the events of today. It was a true cataclysm in the AH today and I don't believe the economy will recover unless you perfect world are able to hunt down the radicals that used this Ponzi scheme. The amount of players that will buy zed now will decrease significantly and you will notice im sure perfect world so we ask you to do us all a favor and rollback just to like last night and all is well. A day of progress some will cry but atleast months worth of damage will be fixed
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yazzitoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
I understand the original posters suggestion and reasons for it, but I have to disagree with the rollback.
Honestly, are you going to suggest a rollback every time an exploit is found?
Many people spent (including myself) many many hours building up our toons, finding unique gear/sets, saving up AD, converting to Zen, buying an expensive zen mount, etc... I already spent too many all nighters getting this set up and was just waiting for more content, maps, dungeons, larger party raids, etc..
I honestly don't think I'd waste the time again until I know there are no more rollbacks. I just don't have the time to do it all over again.
The fact that such a damaging exploit existed in the game just shows how little this game has been tested. I very much doubt that they will wipe the game, because they have said that they will not, and refunding all the purchased ZEN would be absolutely terrible, even if they have full records.
I also think the excuse "this is beta, **** happens" can't really apply here, because they let people invest real money, and it will bring up a ****storm of bad PR if they wipe everyone's characters, and also lose a lot of the playerbase. Really this "Open Beta" is a soft launch, and i think a longer "Closed Beta" (i.e. proper beta testing) would have probably ironed out a lot of the problems.
Once you've said "no wipes" and allowed players to invest money and time, people start going after the things that they want, and spend more and more money to get them (which is exactly what they want you to do). Wiping everyone's progress just because a fraction of the playerbase found a way to beat the system is just moronic.
TL;DR:
More testing is needed in this game. (which I guess we are supposed to do, as this is Beta)
ADs from the -AD exploit need to be removed, and the players exploiting it need to be banned. Also, anyone transferring ADs over the past few days needs to be examined.
The AD/ZEN trading and AH economy need to be looked at, otherwise, things are gonna be completely broken.
People who purchased ZEN need to be reassured that their money is safe in some fashion.
A gift of some sort for players who stick with the game after this may also help ease tensions with whatever happens, be it a wipe or just a lot of bans.
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kattara1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited May 2013
well, if they can trace all mailouts from those who used exploits/hacks accounts? then wipe is not needed, I understand it's better to do a wipe, but many peopple played honestly thus don't deseve to grind again, but then again, this is beta, still in test mode, or is it a realese of a full game?
I know every game who use beta have full wipe before release.
Comments
All i read here is personal opinions, please use them as such and not make generalising arguments that have no weight, unless you really have huge community your running and know their opinion on to the matter.
Personally i would require full refund in money back to my bank if they did wipe. Even if i got that i would be left unhappy (while i agree the current situation is messed), but i value my time and now that ive seen game much futher its more and more clear the game has huge design flaws or someone might call them features. So my personal vote on the matter is that i would take my money and walk away, or if i did decide to play again it would be mostly play CW or something that seems to have most of the fun as most of the stuff in game are subject to your CC, so your like chessmaster.
Seeing how people stream end game boss fights they pretty much all consist of CW, Clerics knocking stuff of the cliffs and aggro managment or the usual expected stuff isnt there. Lvl 60 GWF im left impression im sort of handicap to take with for groups, even if i might pull my weight, i get this feel back of my head that as other class i could do this or that much better and be more vital for the success. Overall the current meta on most fights support this control huge mass of adds and throw them of cliff if possible, or otherwise just control them without getting hit at all. Bosses telegraph their moves and huge red messages pop to warn you to move, so most fights its adds that are reason for wipes.
A simple analogy for you - You bought a set list of groceries from the store to make a certain dish being advertised with a complimentary recipe from said store. You somehow manage to botch the directions of preparing the dish. You don't get to suddenly go back to the store and demand a refund on the ground beef you burned.
When you buy Zen, you buy it from PWE for PWE games. You don't buy Zen from PWE for NWO. If they were to do a wipe, which they have already said they wouldn't; you would NOT receive your hard earned/spent dollars. You would only receive the Zen you purchased back into your accounts Zen wallet. That is the only legal obligation they have to you. To try and charge back on goods used is considered credit/wire fraud and is a criminal offense that you can be prosecuted on.
Again, they have stated they will NOT wipe and that's fine. But don't asininely assume that you are somehow entitled to your money back. You are simply entitled to an allotment of your goods purchased.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Just for emphasis
You're offended that you're playing a game, without contributing in any way to the publisher and developer. And justify that by saying that they "Operate in the Shadows".....
Oh, he's a consumer.. just not a customer
Sure.. Of course. the Guardians and Heros packages were advertised with a head start.. How well do you think the community would react to a rollback, and the free players being locked out for 5 days? Or do you support removing the benefit from the packages after they've been paid for?
Sadly there will be no rollback. They already confirmed.
I don't really agree there. Long term the game will theoretically have more content with a Tier 3+ set of equipment. The cheap epics people got from these exploits (which are now apparently fixed) will not be as good as future sets. So the problem goes away whether there's a wipe or not eventually. Not to mention the more people that gear up to the T1/T2 point, the less impact people who bought all those epics cheap will have - everyone will have the same gear regardless of how they got there.
And finally for people that don't PvP (yes we exist) this is pretty much a non-issue anyway.
It's the other way around now that Marketing and PR discovered the word.
Thing is bean counters don't understand beans ... o/
And yet plenty of games that go open beta...wipe at release.
Beta actually up until recently meant 'wipe before launch'. It's as mentioned - PR types have changed how the word was defined and use 'beta' to mean 'soft launch'.
My thoughts exactly. I rarely play anymore, just log on to pray and lurk through the forums checking news.
Very, very disappointed that nothing was done about all this exploiting. Could have all been fixed in one move with a simple wipe.
I didn't exploit OR buy items after I found out about the exploit (weeks ago), meaning that my level 60 still has some blues. I meet the gearscore requirement for the dungeon I want to run, but the few times I tried - I had terrible experiences. Once I was literally told to "Go buy some cheap purples of the AH you ****."
When I replied that I don't want to cheat, I was actually kicked from the group. Lol. Great player base we have here...
Why would you play a game like this if you're going to take a moral stand against cheap epics? The game is designed to let you buy anything. PVP epics, seal epics, etc are all likely to be "honest" epics.
It's not a moral stand against cheap epics, it is a moral stand against EXPLOITED epics.
- Seals were farmed to no end by combining two exploits. I even had ex guild mates do this. You could very easily get hundreds of them per hour as a GF.
- PvP epics are AFK epics. I earned mine without buying them from the AH, but they do not cover everything. There are still rings, amulets, etc.
I'm not saying a full roll back, just a roll back to when the issue started, because obviously no one deserves the AD/items gained from bidding-AD on the AH.
Honestly, are you going to suggest a rollback every time an exploit is found?
Many people spent (including myself) many many hours building up our toons, finding unique gear/sets, saving up AD, converting to Zen, buying an expensive zen mount, etc... I already spent too many all nighters getting this set up and was just waiting for more content, maps, dungeons, larger party raids, etc..
I honestly don't think I'd waste the time again until I know there are no more rollbacks. I just don't have the time to do it all over again.
I also think the excuse "this is beta, **** happens" can't really apply here, because they let people invest real money, and it will bring up a ****storm of bad PR if they wipe everyone's characters, and also lose a lot of the playerbase. Really this "Open Beta" is a soft launch, and i think a longer "Closed Beta" (i.e. proper beta testing) would have probably ironed out a lot of the problems.
Once you've said "no wipes" and allowed players to invest money and time, people start going after the things that they want, and spend more and more money to get them (which is exactly what they want you to do). Wiping everyone's progress just because a fraction of the playerbase found a way to beat the system is just moronic.
TL;DR:
More testing is needed in this game. (which I guess we are supposed to do, as this is Beta)
ADs from the -AD exploit need to be removed, and the players exploiting it need to be banned. Also, anyone transferring ADs over the past few days needs to be examined.
The AD/ZEN trading and AH economy need to be looked at, otherwise, things are gonna be completely broken.
People who purchased ZEN need to be reassured that their money is safe in some fashion.
A gift of some sort for players who stick with the game after this may also help ease tensions with whatever happens, be it a wipe or just a lot of bans.
I know every game who use beta have full wipe before release.