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Pwe and This game

reaperarm1reaperarm1 Member Posts: 76 Arc User
edited August 2012 in General Discussion (PC)
Sooo.. Just wondering what you fellow players that have had past experiences with pwe think about it. Will pwe make it pay 2 win like most of the other games they run or can we expect some sort of balance in this game.
Post edited by reaperarm1 on

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  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    reaperarm1 wrote: »
    Sooo.. Just wondering what you fellow players that have had past experiences with pwe think about it. Will pwe make it pay 2 win like most of the other games they run or can we expect some sort of balance in this game.

    they are trying to do dnd, and some of us are very old dnd fans. so if they dont do it right, we will definately be letting them know, but if you think dnd is wow, and all is dictated by gear, then you will be killed a lot for a few days
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  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    on that note, you better believe the world of dnd fans is looking at this, with an eye like no other. the eye that knows the flavor of dnd, and not the flavor of a game called an mmo
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Himmelville - Are you easily frightened?
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    On one side of the mountain, there were bones...
  • galvayragalvayra Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    As long as they dont force PvP into my game i couldent care less about pay to win.

    I only care about exploring stuff in PvE and reading lore so what exactly will they be winning if they pay money?

    To me, they are not really making a game, they are making a tool for people to make adventures in Faerun and thats what i am interested in, the world, the places, the people.

    All i ask is that im not forced to compete in pvp in any way shape or form.
    "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited August 2012
    galvayra wrote: »
    All i ask is that im not forced to compete in pvp in any way shape or form.

    I second this notion. Indeed. I couldn't care any less about PvP. Hmm, well, my only real care is that I would like to never be subjected to it in D&D, which includes but not limited to, Neverwinter Online.

    I just don't want to see magical armor, weapons and other game mechanic magic items up for sale in the Cash Shop. I hope it all remains cosmetic appearance, clothing and apparel, account unlocks and perks, new races and classes, and even items like XP boosts and mounts would be okay. I would like all the "loot" in the game to be obtainable only through actual game-play.

    I'm really pumped over the Foundry. Looking forward to hearing more about player housing. I don't recall if any PWE games have player housing but CO does have Hideouts, which aren't much. STO has ship interiors, which aren't decorable. Hopefully NWO will be something awesome with player housing that rivals what Ultima Online had done.

    I want to build my own Cottage, Keep, Tower and Castle Estate please!
  • lyfebanelyfebane Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 312 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    Judging from other games, I predict keys to unlock certain locked boxes, not that I am too keen on that, but they generally do not need to be opened. Would perfer the usually exp boost, fancy mounts (recon you should get a basic one), quick portals probably and so on.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I think what most folks are concerned with is the whole Asian every game must be PVP as D&D is a cooperative game by nature, I don't see that happening here however. I expect the PVP to be limited to some sort of arena based combat and a few battlegrounds.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    On a more cautionary note, just because D&D is more cooperative, doesn't mean they still can't force "p2w". After all, you can unbalance PvE as much as you do PvP. There are also "popular" mechanisms whereby the developers intentionally create annoying in-game barriers that can be only overcome with the use of the store. And that's NOT fun.

    Examples of that would be blocking leveling progress, introducing insanely low drop rates for basic items or low success rates for crafting and similar systems, artificially boosting game difficulty to force players to buy in-game boosts, etc.

    If any of that garbage is in NWO, I will find something better to do with my time and money.
  • devoteoftempusdevoteoftempus Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 473 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    They've already said in numerous interviews that the CS will be cosmetic and convenience items. No comments on additional classes/races being included in it, which find it odd how no one has asked that question in vids when the CS is discussed.

    And rest assured PvP will not be forced. It will simpely be a form of content and will be one of the pillars of this game like how PvE and Foundry/UGC will be pillars that will support this game.
  • vindiconvindicon Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    ausdoerrt wrote: »
    On a more cautionary note, just because D&D is more cooperative, doesn't mean they still can't force "p2w". After all, you can unbalance PvE as much as you do PvP. There are also "popular" mechanisms whereby the developers intentionally create annoying in-game barriers that can be only overcome with the use of the store. And that's NOT fun.

    Examples of that would be blocking leveling progress, introducing insanely low drop rates for basic items or low success rates for crafting and similar systems, artificially boosting game difficulty to force players to buy in-game boosts, etc.

    If any of that garbage is in NWO, I will find something better to do with my time and money.

    More often than not, the form of cashshop that unbalances pvp is entirely different that the one that unbalances pve.

    A cashshop focused around selling, one way or another, power, surely does affect pvp quite a lot regardless of any circumstances. However, unless the difficulty of the pve is such that actually requires a character armed to the teeth with state-of-the-art +12 gear to reliably clear, or if the difference in power is such that a free user is nothing more than dead weight in a group of heavy spenders - which doesn't really happen, as even the most p2w games do not just hand over tons of damage on a plate to the heavy payers, and are balanced around the gear that is attainable through normal play - then there is no problem for pve. Sure, you might not be accepted in some elitist guilds that have a "you must be that rich to enter" sign on their doorstep, but you most probably wouldn't want to associate with such people anyway, so no big loss.

    The problem with cashshop and pve arises when the company's buisness model is selling actual game content. Yes, DDO and LotRO, I'm looking at you and your awful bussiness models. Now, I'm not against reserving certain dungeons/areas/questlines - as long as they are not of major importance in order to actually progress in the game - for premium members. But dammit, do not put premium races and classes in it. Especially not in the way Turbine did it there: "Oh, here's your generic human/elf/dwarf you can play for free. Or you could pay and be a sentient magical machine!" Really... same with their classes. That would be the equivalent of SWTOR making Jedi Knights a premium class when it goes free to play... In short, never ever block access the thing RPGs are mostly about, ie different classes and builds. Especially not the classes and races that are actually interesting...

    Anyway, problems with PVE "p2w" are rare to non-existant in games that were developed as f2p from the start. Where you'll face them much more often is in games that were once p2p - like DDO or Age of Conan. Especially the latter - damn, you can't even buy the necessary gear for endgame pve because you can't hold enough gold for them unless you pay...
    F2p-only publishers generally know what they're doing with pve, so I'm not too concerned for pve in NW.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    ausdoerrt wrote: »
    On a more cautionary note, just because D&D is more cooperative, doesn't mean they still can't force "p2w". After all, you can unbalance PvE as much as you do PvP. There are also "popular" mechanisms whereby the developers intentionally create annoying in-game barriers that can be only overcome with the use of the store. And that's NOT fun.

    Examples of that would be blocking leveling progress, introducing insanely low drop rates for basic items or low success rates for crafting and similar systems, artificially boosting game difficulty to force players to buy in-game boosts, etc.

    If any of that garbage is in NWO, I will find something better to do with my time and money.

    Considering Jack Emmerts philosophy on that I don't see it happening, and yeah PWE is the owner but Jack is very much steering the ship at Cryptic, you really should give this video a watch Craig Zinkievich has pretty much echoed that sentiment in many of his interviews a well.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Considering Jack Emmerts philosophy on that I don't see it happening, and yeah PWE is the owner but Jack is very much steering the ship at Cryptic, you really should give this video a watch Craig Zinkievich has pretty much echoed that sentiment in many of his interviews a well.

    yes, and the fact that he says that he wants a free to pay game Vs a game where you need to play pretty much nails it. The content will all be playable without paying somehow, but for convenience you can pay and get items which help you do things conveniently.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Here's my take on the whole thing...

    If you look at how Wizards of the Coast, and TSR before them, monetized D&D, with rulebooks, miniatures, guides, fancy dice, counters, and even officially published adventure modules, you realize that nothing PWE will do would really be any different.

    We have to remember that the original scope for NW was a co-op RPG with the power of an MMO server to handle the instances associated with the campaign the player-DMs would create with the Foundry, with the city of Neverwinter serving as a chief social hub, with "doors" all throughout it for linking foundry quests, and most likely the city gates for linking modules not set within the city.

    What has likely changed is that the game will launch with not only Neverwinter, but the surrounding regions, many pre-made dungeons and ruins to explore with developer-authored quests (ideally using the Foundry themselves to show off what can be achieved), as well as neighboring towns, with even more foundry doors. So they will have built a world with plenty of quests in it for players to do. But the meat of NW will, like pen-and-paper D&D, be the ability for players to create their own campaigns and share them.

    This won't be like Star Trek where the only people the trek nerds trust to make mission content are the developers. Anyone who is an avid D&D player knows that there is a statement in the preface of the rulebook that directs the DM to disregard the rules if they get in the way of having fun. And nothing in the rulebook says that a DM must keep his or her campaign in line with the lore of the D&D universe. It's all just guidelines...

    Now in terms of the whole pay-to-win mentality, NW is not being designed around PvP. If someone wants to buy potions or heavily statted gear to move themselves as quickly through content as possible, as far as I am concerned, that is their prerogative. It's different when you factor that sort of thing into PvP, where it won't boil down to who is a better player, but who had more money to spend.

    A solution would be to have gear, with augmented stats, purchased with Zen would have those stat bonuses disregarded in PvP. Or better, when queuing up for a PvP event, give the person defining the parameters of the contest the ability to allow or disallow Zen-purchased gear. And those looking to join an event can filter based on whether or not it will permit it. That way, anyone without Zen purchased gear who willingly engages in a PvP event where it is allowed has no grounds to whine about Pay-to-Win.

    I think that where PWE/Cryptic will be able to generate the most revenue will be to release resource packs to be used in the creation of Foundry modules. As they add new places to go and new official quests to the core gameworld, and we see the new stuff that they produced to make those things, we who are into foundry design would be keen on spending money on the Zen needed to unlock the resources associated with them. That way new stuff is added to the core game and becomes more widely used throughout foundry missions.

    That lets them maintain their "You will never have to pay for gameplay content" position and still monetize that content. Nobody would have to pay to play it, just to be able to use it in the creation of their own adventures.

    In a way, it becomes like a model railroad made by enthusiasts who want to show off their creation. Hobby stores offer a wide variety of materials for creating any sort of model railroad. New track pieces, new styles of boxcars, miniature trees, miniature buildings, switching mechanisms and the wires for connecting it all together.

    Just check this out. Every inch of that was creatively designed using probably what amounts to many thousands of dollars spent on all the elements. If Cryptic/PWE were to monetize foundry expansions, it would be the same principle, except that the results would be visible to WAY more people who don't just get to look at what you create, but experience it.

    So no... I do not see PWE's involvement in NW to be a negative impact. In fact I feel that the D&D license is perfect for PWE's business model.

    Those who just want to play get it all for free, except for whatever they feel they need to augment their play experience. Those who want to create, we are told, can pay to unlock quest slots. Ideally, the first quest slot purchase would make all resources present at the game's launch available to the player to create missions with. But any other resources released after launch should require purchase of resource packs. Throw in 2 additional quest slots and you give foundry authors not only 2 more slots to make quests with the resources they already have, but also more resources to work with.

    And Cryptic/PWE would ideally populate their extended game content with examples of every monetized cosmetic item they offer. New costumes available for ZEN? Excellent! Show off NPCs wearing them. New landscapes for building foundry missions in? Show them off in-game.

    They won't need flashing or sparkly elements on the UI pointing people to the online store. If they see an NPC wearing a new outfit, they can bring up the store, go to wearables, and right there with a big bold "NEW!" icon next to it, would be the outfit that can be bought right then and there...

    There will be no subscription fee charged for NW. So I say let them monetize everything about it.
    I'm not really a John Galt,
    but I play one on the forums...
    :P
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Well, one can only hope that they hold to their word, but hey, suspicions are not unfounded when it comes to PWE.

    I also don't mind them charging for Foundry assets packs, so long as the quests made with those "premium" assets are accessible by players who don't own them. That way, this turns into a kickstarter-like model, where people can donate money to good DMs to make more quests. Otherwise, it's bad for DMs because the number of players who see their quests would be drastically reduced. I do recall them mentioning something like this in one of the interviews, so I hope this is how it will work out.
  • iamtruthseekeriamtruthseeker Member, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    All interesting points and I agree with them.

    (And sirsitsalot fixed his link in the above post.)
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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Fixed. Thanks.
    I'm not really a John Galt,
    but I play one on the forums...
    :P
  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    i hope PW will transfer itsbusiness model to neverwinter to so everyone can play game normaly and everything whit every class i dont care about being to strongest one on server so let ppl who care and tehir ego run us game :) so we dont need to wory abot contents ,exspansion and new classes and having cash to buy them and premium accounts ,sry for bad eng
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