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{PvE] List of Dreadnought PvE Problems

rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User
With the Owlbear server going dark, I would hazard to guess that Mod 19 is probably in development somewhere, with a beta going out soon (as per a screenshot with Lassor from @wilbur626). Unfortunately, I, unlike the Sharpedgelord, don't have bugfixing points with the devs, so I doubt I'll personally be asked to join the server.

And while I personally don't know who will be/is/was invited to the server, I recall reading that Mod 19 was when GF would get reworked for its DPS spec.

Thus, I created a list of problems the spec has in PvE so the Owlbear people can possibly hone in on what to fix/not fix, in the vein of @wilbur626 's thread on the tank side.

List of Problems & Hypothetical Suggestions

This document is only aimed at PvE.

I don't claim to be an expert at PvP and any possible changes to the class that would affect PvP are accounted for, though mere speculation due to my lack of PvP experience.
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  • dspeic43#8473 dspeic43 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    Good job.

    Hopefully the devs look at this and take it to heart when trying to fix this class, and the game.
  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    Hi rjc9000.

    First of all: WOW !!! You probably have invested a lot of time for creating these changes. And there are many great ideas. Thanks for your work!

    I really like your suggestions on skills (at-will, encounter and dailies). I agree with all of them. The third animation of GW must be shorter. The speed of Brazen Slash is wrong (0.65s), very good point. CS needs a shorter cooldown, but it also needs a higher magnitude. Rogues Wicked Reminder has a magnitude of 650 and about 17 sec cooldown. So in a group I would still force the Rogue to use its skills, because its damage loss would be lower than mine. And I read that all of these buffs don't stack. So CS should be like Wicked Reminder to be balanced. A shorter cooldown would be overpowered for the whole team, because that buff should not be 100% uptime. That is not the sense of these skills. I also think about ITF. In my opinion no DPS should be able to use a support role, because a DPS wants to deal damage and also wants to be the leader on the board. And if there is a possibility to support the mates by such an amout (CS+ITF+"Combined Arms"), we will be forced to be the supporter in all runs. That should not be the goal. For me ITF should be for Vanguard with your rework. Vanguard is a supporter.

    Feats:
    - I don't like your changes on Weight of Vengeance. That will consume too much vengeance. That would not be playable. It is fine like it is now.
    - Your new Heavier Slash is ok. But it should increase the magnitude by 300, like it is now.
    - Your new Prepared Slam is interesting, but it should not consume vengeance. You have too many feats, which consumes vengeance. So you will be forced to use Seethe within a combat. I really like Prepared Slam like it is on live server.
    - Your new Crushing Blows is awesome.
    - Your new Tier 4 is pretty good. But Rolling Hatred should not only work with at-wills.
    - Your Landwaster sounds more like a negative effect than like a positive effect. You can use maybe 3 encounters with half of their strength, but no cooldown and afterwards your vengeance is empty. The last two of them would not benefit from the 20% buff (or 25% with EV). That sounds horrible, even for burst damage.
    - Your Strikers Mark it okay. Maybe a little better than the current one, but not a huge improvement. It would only be nice, if Determination would get the buff you suggested (50% and only 500 AP).
    - Your Tier 5 is okay. Some very creative and nice ideas.

    And you have created some very nice class features. Nice work. Fearless is one of my favorites, because I think we don't need Seethe anymore. Riposte is also nice. Improved Vengeance sounds like a really realistic class feature. Hopefully we will get something like that in the future. Martial Adept is also a very creative class feature. Really good work.

    Thanks again for your works and your nice ideas. Hopefully the devs will use some of your ideas for their M19 rework.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    Hi rjc9000.

    First of all: WOW !!! You probably have invested a lot of time for creating these changes. And there are many great ideas. Thanks for your work!

    I really like your suggestions on skills (at-will, encounter and dailies). I agree with all of them. The third animation of GW must be shorter. The speed of Brazen Slash is wrong (0.65s), very good point. CS needs a shorter cooldown, but it also needs a higher magnitude. Rogues Wicked Reminder has a magnitude of 650 and about 17 sec cooldown. So in a group I would still force the Rogue to use its skills, because its damage loss would be lower than mine. And I read that all of these buffs don't stack. So CS should be like Wicked Reminder to be balanced. A shorter cooldown would be overpowered for the whole team, because that buff should not be 100% uptime. That is not the sense of these skills. I also think about ITF. In my opinion no DPS should be able to use a support role, because a DPS wants to deal damage and also wants to be the leader on the board. And if there is a possibility to support the mates by such an amout (CS+ITF+"Combined Arms"), we will be forced to be the supporter in all runs. That should not be the goal. For me ITF should be for Vanguard with your rework. Vanguard is a supporter.

    The encounters and at-wills (specifically: CS cooldown, GW 3rd hit, ITF being useless, KB) and Determination were the main ideas I thought about when creating this list. The feats/passives were secondary, since those are a bit more subjective to how reworks should/shouldn't be done.

    The whole combo At-will thing seems to be wrong on most of the other classes I noticed (ex: Storm Strike's last hit was a 0.7 second cast time from what I recall), so it would be fair to adjust every class' "x hit combo" At-will damages for the last hits (I'm hoping they're actual changes and not "+5 magnitude" like Brash Strike was improved by).

    The 3rd hit of Griffons bugged me for so long that I went out of my way to make that .gif parodying the Griffon's Wrath experience (aka: get hit out of the 3rd hit/miss it because enemy moved/can't use it because you need to do mechanic).

    For CS, I found it was tricky to think of a unique niche for it because it both does damage and has the debuff. If the base damage is too high, you may as well pick CS over other stuff for the raw damage and if the cooldown is too long, barely anyone will use it when other classes have better debuffs. I don't know what sweet spot CS would have in terms of cooldown to base damage ratio, so you, or any others stopping by this thread are free to make suggestions (remember, I wrote this as a list for the Owlbearers, not for myself :P).

    I was also planning on writing "separate Commanders Strike/Disarming Takedown/Wicked Reminder", but then I noticed that Break the Spirit and Ray of Enfeeblement were the same debuff for the magic side as well. I think that making these debuffs all the same was intentional, so I scrapped that idea.

    For ITF, I recall a lot of us wanted it to be a universal power or to be Vanguard exclusive in Mod 16, seeing as it was support focused. I wouldn't mind, but the viewpoint I approached this rework from was trying to see what it was likely for the dev team to do with as little programming as possible.

    If ITF were to be a Vanguard exclusive, the only reasonable encounter powers to swap out would be either Line Breaker or Knight's Challenge, since all other Vanguard exclusive encounter power are utility based (Iron Warrior/Enforced Threat/Knight's Valor).

    I would not want to swap out Line Breaker, as the DPS side already has 3 AoE encounters anyways (universal Shield Slam, Tremor/Onslaught) in addition to robbing Vanguard of an aggro maintaining tool.

    I would say the obvious choice would be Knight's Challenge. I wouldn't mind getting a nerfed version of the old Knight's Challenge back on the DPS side (not a 100% buff like it once was, but 30-50% with an equivalent penalty would be fine). The main problem I can see is that the dev team would not want it, seeing as Mod 16 went out of its way of destroying most buffs for the sake of normalizing expected damage across the board.


    Feats:
    - I don't like your changes on Weight of Vengeance. That will consume too much vengeance. That would not be playable. It is fine like it is now.
    - Your new Heavier Slash is ok. But it should increase the magnitude by 300, like it is now.
    - Your new Prepared Slam is interesting, but it should not consume vengeance. You have too many feats, which consumes vengeance. So you will be forced to use Seethe within a combat. I really like Prepared Slam like it is on live server.
    - Your new Crushing Blows is awesome.
    - Your new Tier 4 is pretty good. But Rolling Hatred should not only work with at-wills.
    - Your Landwaster sounds more like a negative effect than like a positive effect. You can use maybe 3 encounters with half of their strength, but no cooldown and afterwards your vengeance is empty. The last two of them would not benefit from the 20% buff (or 25% with EV). That sounds horrible, even for burst damage.
    - Your Strikers Mark it okay. Maybe a little better than the current one, but not a huge improvement. It would only be nice, if Determination would get the buff you suggested (50% and only 500 AP).
    - Your Tier 5 is okay. Some very creative and nice ideas.

    I suppose I went overboard with Vengeance consuming effects, since, right now, only Weight of Vengeance is the only practical feat which consumes Vengeance. Remember that these are just the feats I thought of and not the community as a whole, I'm sure you or others out there can think of equally interesting ideas for the Owlbearers to drawn upon.

    My initial ideas of Heavy Slash was to sorta merge it with an At-will boosting effect and calling it Heavier Slashes, but then I figured that would just add up to more damage in the long run. I also felt that making the base damage too high would not be considered, since a lot of these other feats add more damage than the devs intended, I think.

    For Weight of Vengeance, I was slightly annoyed that it "forces" you to use Anvil. I admit the written version of Weight of Vengeance wasn't the best thought out, but I'd want the feats to not force you to use specific powers.

    Prepared Slam was originally a feat I didn't want to touch, seeing as it had a unique thing going for it (clears Heavy Slash buff). I originally just wanted the written version to clear the Heavy Slash buff, but then I felt that having only one feat clear the Heavy Slash buff came out of nowhere, so I decided to move to just Vengeance consume just so "things that consume Vengeance" doesn't come out of nowhere.

    I think the daily attack tier kinda got shafted because I suggested making Determination a 50% AP daily and Striker's Mark was intended to go with making Determination a 50% AP Gain daily (you're not "forced" to use Determination, but the best use of the feat is with Determination).

    Landwaster, in my mind, was that you finished a rotation, then you would pop a daily and be able to some bonus encounter powers for free, similar to its current effect of "use Earthshaker, then get a free Shockwave use". The bonus encounters had their CC effects stripped and damage nerfed so the PvPers wouldn't qq about one rotates, in addition to not eclipsing the damage buff of Striker's Mark. The original version I thought about was "after using a daily attack, reduce the cooldowns of all your encounters by 7 seconds with a 7 second internal cooldown" , but I feared it would be too similar to the Tier 5 choice of of reducing cooldowns.


    And you have created some very nice class features. Nice work. Fearless is one of my favorites, because I think we don't need Seethe anymore. Riposte is also nice. Improved Vengeance sounds like a really realistic class feature. Hopefully we will get something like that in the future. Martial Adept is also a very creative class feature. Really good work.

    That bottom section is where I decided to put ideas I originally thought about but didn't want to get rid of. I didn't know what the devs/Owlbearers would or wouldn't take, so I just put my ideas there in the event they needed more ideas.

    The one I'd note about specifically is Improved Vengeance, which was worded in such a way that players could opt to combine it with the Fearless effect for a higher risk high reward strategy: kill things much faster in exchange for having much more strict Vengeance management and being made of paper. It's synergy between feats/passives/gear choices (see: old Survivors Wraps + Reckless Attacker, even if that combo was broken) like that which is missing from most classes, and imo one of the most missed parts of the old combat system.

    Feel free to suggest other ideas for feats/class features/powers/etc, we don't know what the devs will decide to use or not use on Owlbear, and maybe someone else comes up with a killer idea.
    Post edited by rjc9000 on
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,228 Arc User
    I would like my shield to actually be attached to my fighters when they are out of combat. Even the NPC fighters have floating shields (Master of the Hunt, that turncoat guy in Bryn Shander)
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    Impressive job, tho as long it has been stated and remarked that there won't be a split into PvP and PvE abilities an integrated view is needed, PvP fighter is anything but weak.
    Imo main cores of rework should go on:
    - "Problem 1: In-Combat Vengeance generation for PvE involves doing stupid things or waiting around": I will bind vengeance generation on dmg taken on a class feature or a feat. Agree on tweaks are needed (roiling hatred, bloody reprise and tab rework on top)
    - At-Wills: want to add that Heavy Slash clunky animation and targeting, used both as dmg source (heavier slash) and buff (its own buff and prepared slam) is making the whole rotation painful. Maybe adding a lunging effect to animation may help in rotation and fix current hitbox, reducing its magnitude as compensation
    - on a PvP-specific side: there are too many survivability tools (ie: shield, with ITF refilling it) on a dps spec and burst (high magnitude). What about placing shield on tab (with squatty pot functionality but shield animation) and a dodge on shift?
    - the proposed feat rework is perfect as it is, 100% supporting that
  • comanchejack#9781 comanchejack Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    I'm a little lost at where this toon fits in most traditional RPG groups. It sounds like a plate class monk for lack of a better term. Similar to the Hospitalier character played by David Thewlis so brilliantly in "Kingdom Of Heaven". I hope you don't mind me crashing your party but I'm about to start playing on Xbox One I think. You guys are by far the most knowledgeable about your class. So maybe you can help me find mine. I was a Troll Shaman on the original EQ. That toon has been impossible to replicate so far. I'm looking for a class/ race combo that has natural health regen, has healing spells, has a combat pet, can cast dps or buff and of course the character has to be able to tank in a pinch. Also if it could convert it's health to Mana that would be awesome. If anything like that exists I will pay it forward in spades.

    Also should I buy any of the packs to get myself started properly? I don't mind spending a few bucks. I'm 49 and not in the best health so I want to get my character leveled up without excessive grinding if a new sword or xp potion actually helps? I have no idea, I'm asking.

    Finally is it true you can actually Dungeon Master now? That I would really enjoy. Especially if there isn't a character out there for me.

    Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. One skill I have that have gotten nowhere in the real world is I can look at a character schematic and equipment list and see things nobody else sees. Kind of like the numbers falling in front of Russell Crowe's eyes in "A Beautiful Mind" and I can take whatever is thought to be the best character build by the meta, and beat it every time, and show you how. As I get into the game I'll try to post these diverse builds for you guys and everyone else
    Here on the forums. I can empathize with getting tired of that 3rd whack by the mob. That's why I just threw away the dps and meta specs and got into these alternate builds. Instead of waiting on data to say I could kill a mob,. I just did it. I hope I can show some others how to do that too. If they want.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User
    ramesh84 said:

    Impressive job, tho as long it has been stated and remarked that there won't be a split into PvP and PvE abilities an integrated view is needed

    ramesh84 said:


    - At-Wills: want to add that Heavy Slash clunky animation and targeting, used both as dmg source (heavier slash) and buff (its own buff and prepared slam) is making the whole rotation painful. Maybe adding a lunging effect to animation may help in rotation and fix current hitbox, reducing its magnitude as compensation

    Maybe change the animation itself so it has a wider range?
    (Maybe a horizontal/diagonal slash like Commander's Strike?)

    The current animation feels very silly and I am not quite sure where its original source is. Perhaps it was recycled from basic attacks from vampires in Barovia (regular vampires/discount dracula)?
    ramesh84 said:

    PvP fighter is anything but weak.
    [...]
    - on a PvP-specific side: there are too many survivability tools (ie: shield, with ITF refilling it) on a dps spec and burst (high magnitude). What about placing shield on tab (with squatty pot functionality but shield animation) and a dodge on shift?

    I wouldn't be opposed to getting a dodge and moving "hide behind shield" to Tab, since that would make playing tank vs. DPS feel slightly more distinct (DPS is more mobile but only has a fraction of the tank side's damage absorption).

    I just don't know how PvE players and other PvP players would react to said change.

    I would guess many PvE players would not like it due to not really addressing many of the core PvE issues not getting solved (solved by adding Vengeance generation into feats/changing the mechanic outright).

    I would guess some PvPers would dislike it for ruining their ability to absorb a ton of damage, while others would be okay with it for reducing the high survivability of a class with strong base damage.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,346 Arc User
    I don't know why you posted your questions on the Guard Barracks of all places, seeing as the Guardian Fighter class was historically one of the least played classes.

    Additionally, I'd say these questions are off topic relative to the thread (maybe @kreatyve could move this to the Xbox one section and make it some sort of "New Player" thread?), though I'll still answer it to the best of my ability.

    I'm a little lost at where this toon fits in most traditional RPG groups. It sounds like a plate class monk for lack of a better term. Similar to the Hospitalier character played by David Thewlis so brilliantly in "Kingdom Of Heaven".

    Assuming you go as a Fighter DPS (you get the choice of DPS or Tank at level 30), the class would theoretically fit well as a DPS/offtank type role seeing as you are more tanky than most DPS and are encouraged to play a counter attacker style, in theory.

    In practice, offtanking isn't needed much, if at all nowadays. PvE group content is set up in a way that you must have a dedicated tank role absorbing all the damage, as enemy damage is inflated to such high amounts, you must have the tank passive (gain 40% more HP) to survive hits for millions when most non tank characters are expected to have ~300,000 HP in general (up to 500,000+ if you gear purely defensively).

    I was a Troll Shaman on the original EQ. That toon has been impossible to replicate so far. I'm looking for a class/ race combo that has natural health regen, has healing spells, has a combat pet, can cast dps or buff and of course the character has to be able to tank in a pinch. Also if it could convert it's health to Mana that would be awesome. If anything like that exists I will pay it forward in spades.

    There is no Shaman/Druid type class (nature themed spellcaster/healer) available in this game.

    No race has natural in combat health regeneration, though when out of combat, you regenerate 10% of your HP per second.
    Most of the racial bonuses in general are minor and not very impactful in general (you won't live or die because of your racial bonuses).
    If you want in combat health regeneration, you can sort of get it with the Barbarian's Revelry insignia bonus, but don't expect to keep attacking and live forever.

    Every class can pick up a in combat pet (companion), though the companions themselves start to lose effectiveness very quickly unless you invest a ton of money and put. Even then, for the same level of investment, you are better off just improving your base character.

    Spellcasters in general don't really have mana in this game (exception: Divinity on Cleric and Paladin), as spells usually operate on cooldowns. The closest thing to "turn health into mana" thing at the moment would be the Warlock healer, since I recall they had an ability to turn their HP into Soul Sparks (the Warlock mechanic).

    The closest match to what you would be looking for would be the Arbiter Cleric (DPS Cleric). It has a healing spell, some level of buffing (Break the Spirit), and good damage if you can play it well (most people cannot play Arbiter well, if at all).

    Also should I buy any of the packs to get myself started properly? I don't mind spending a few bucks. I'm 49 and not in the best health so I want to get my character leveled up without excessive grinding if a new sword or xp potion actually helps? I have no idea, I'm asking.



    Personally, I would not buy any packs right away until you are sure you like the game, seeing as many of the items/packs on the ZEN store (real money store) are generally overpriced relative to their ingame value/usefulness.
    If you had to pick any packs to buy, I would go with the Dragonborn Race pack and/or the Gith race pack, purely for the extra bags they provide, with the race themselves/companions being pure bonus (the weapons/armor they provide are just cosmetic items used for the transmute systems). These race bundle bags can be reclaimed on alts if you decide to make alts.

    Leveling up in this game is pretty easy relative to other MMOs, if you really wanted to be in game all day, you could hit level 80 in less than a week. If you just follow the storyline (go talk to Sgt. Knox and follow the plot of the week he gives you), you shouldn't need to go out of your way to level grind.


    Finally is it true you can actually Dungeon Master now? That I would really enjoy. Especially if there isn't a character out there for me.



    You can't, The Foundry (quest maker) was a PC exclusive feature and was deleted from the game many, many months ago.

    On the subject of Dungeon Master: this game might proudly display "D&D" on its logo, but it's better described as an online action game set in the Forgotten Realms universe, than a D&D systems game.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,228 Arc User
    "If you had to pick any packs to buy, I would go with the Dragonborn Race pack and/or the Gith race pack"

    Millions of moon elf voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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