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Warlock lack of Single target DPS

reboot#2154 reboot Posts: 4Member Arc User
Hello everyone,

I play as a DPS Warlock and i constantly find myself struggling against the lack of dps from the class.

While the AOE damage is quite decent I think that single target will never be like Wizards or Rangers dps.

While looking for ToMM groups, most of the time, they answer me that only CW and HR are tanken as DPS.

This is in my opinion a major issue right now, becouse i'm struggling to play the end game PVE as i wish to (even do I have all the stat caps and 190k power), becouse it's simply impossibile for a Warlock to deal the same amount of DPS a Wizard can do.

I think that lowering the cost of Tyrannical Curse from 1000AP to 500AP will probably be enough to close in the gap and let Warlock be more enjoyable as DPS and not only as healers

What do you think about this, and what do you think the solutions could be?

Thanks everyone

Comments

  • paulamyo#4926 paulamyo Posts: 48Member Arc User
    Yeah they made something with the class balance some weeks ago with the new damage formula to get all the classes use the same formula (good start) and the warlock buffs (clearly necessary)...

    But no news of more adjustements since then. Some classes are still far ahead from the rest, DC is also lacking ST damage while having a good area damage.

    As TOMM is clearly ST, most of the classes underperfom. When you are making a group and can choose between the best ST DPS class and one underperforming by a great margin, is understandable that many people chose to pick only those best ST classes.

    But clearly does not seem to be a big problem for devs.
  • reboot#2154 reboot Posts: 4Member Arc User
    edited November 29
    hrakh said:

    Just to be clear. While the Soulweaver path may have seen some minor improvement, there were no, zero, none, nada, zip, zilch, niente, bubkus, etc. etc... "warlock buffs" to go along with those formula changes.

    Sure, they may have tried to present it at such, but that can only be qualified as yet another insult to our intelligence.

    Actually they increased the magnitued of most spell, but decreasing the buff gain from "Risky investment" talent they countered all the buff they gave (about +5% gain in magnitude -5% loss on the talent bonus) so the damage remains quite the same.

    The problem is that a good CW with my same gear does on ST 25% more dps then i do, that's a lot. I still think that having a 500AP cost for Tyrannical Curse let us gain that 15% bonus that will not even the floor, but let us close in the gap and be more competitive
  • bigman99#8273 bigman99 Posts: 282Member Arc User
    edited November 29
    Unfortunately, going by previous experience with the devs, it seems far more likely they will nerf CW/hunters/rogues than lift up the classes that struggle with ST. Bringing up a class requires forethought and a plan for that class, nerfing a class requires only two things: a bat and a willingness to hit people with it.
  • reboot#2154 reboot Posts: 4Member Arc User

    Unfortunately, going by previous experience with the devs, it seems far more likely they will nerf CW/hunters/rogues than lift up the classes that struggle with ST. Bringing up a class requires forethought and a plan for that class, nerfing a class requires only two things: a bat and a willingness to hit people with it.

    I noticed that, and, speaking as a developer, it's quite a crazy policy. It will be far more straightforward to even the ground lifting up the classes then nerfing down.

    Of course when introducing a lot of updates with a new module you may create some unbalancing, becouse among thousands of players there will be the one who catches the great rotation you missed, but from there, listening to players, and lifting up the underdogs you may even up everything.

    I think that if a class has a dps loadout should be able to do dps at the same level of any other class.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 258Member Arc User
    Unfortunately all other dps classes do more single target damage than a warlock after the last "balance" pass. Even a xuna companion by itself can do single target damage on par with a maxed out dps warlock now.
  • duckie#5377 duckie Posts: 14Member Arc User
    When they announced the warlock damage changes everybody on these forums told No worries this is not a buff and will not bring the warlock anywhere near the other classes. No worries stated that they didn't want to buff us too much because we would get upset if they then had to nerf us later. I pointed out in my previous post that that's all fine and well but it takes them far to long to address imbalances. So here we sit with MOD 18 approaching, bottom of the DPS pile and excluded from high end content still waiting for them to do something to address the balance issues. I would have gladly taken a nerf later rather than be stuck in no mans land for a period of an entire year with no improvement in sight.

    Incidentally they were told 2 months ago on PC that there was an issue with Dread Vault and missing time extend pickups - Today we get Dread Vault on PS4 and the problem is still exists where you can't run a x5. This is just how inept they are at listening and fixing issues, its actually quite pathetic.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Posts: 412Member Arc User
    Just curious... How much DPS output would the Soulweaver have if specced for it?

    (i realize this cannot be done in group content)

    I started a new Hellbringer. It looks interesting & is confusing to a new initiate... which is a good thing, but if it's output is limited, I wont invest into it. I have a Barbarian, Wizard, & Paladin with 63 boons each, legendary mounts & companions... collecting dust while I work on my Assassin for the next 6 months getting all its stuff & boons.

    By the description of the current state of Hellbringer, It seems like it would be an easy first step.. to take the least used half of its skills and buff them by about 10%. Might not make it competitive, but at least more versatile.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    edited December 2
    People don't really know a wizard's dps in TOMM. With their insane daily and AP gain, burst that allows it to benefit fully from multiple artifacts and also being ranged, it really is a class made for TOMM. I also made a post about how end game gear solely caters to these classes because of their ability to do proc them faster and because of them benefiting a lot more from AP gain than other classes.

    What i do notice is that, a non-meta class such as a warlock might not consider that the same BiS gear that they share with Wiz, benefits the latter much more.

    The solution to your problem is not a warlock buff, its more of a buff to all ST lacking DPS. They all get the same treatment when looking for a group to join TOMM.
  • reboot#2154 reboot Posts: 4Member Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    People don't really know a wizard's dps in TOMM. With their insane daily and AP gain, burst that allows it to benefit fully from multiple artifacts and also being ranged, it really is a class made for TOMM. I also made a post about how end game gear solely caters to these classes because of their ability to do proc them faster and because of them benefiting a lot more from AP gain than other classes.

    What i do notice is that, a non-meta class such as a warlock might not consider that the same BiS gear that they share with Wiz, benefits the latter much more.

    The solution to your problem is not a warlock buff, its more of a buff to all ST lacking DPS. They all get the same treatment when looking for a group to join TOMM.

    I'm not sure about that, HR and TR also join TOMM groups quite easy, and i've been told more than once from a tomm group leader that he prefers to take Barbarians instead of warlock.

  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    edited December 2

    sobi#1980 said:

    People don't really know a wizard's dps in TOMM. With their insane daily and AP gain, burst that allows it to benefit fully from multiple artifacts and also being ranged, it really is a class made for TOMM. I also made a post about how end game gear solely caters to these classes because of their ability to do proc them faster and because of them benefiting a lot more from AP gain than other classes.

    What i do notice is that, a non-meta class such as a warlock might not consider that the same BiS gear that they share with Wiz, benefits the latter much more.

    The solution to your problem is not a warlock buff, its more of a buff to all ST lacking DPS. They all get the same treatment when looking for a group to join TOMM.

    I'm not sure about that, HR and TR also join TOMM groups quite easy, and i've been told more than once from a tomm group leader that he prefers to take Barbarians instead of warlock.

    I never said they don't. Actually, the top dps right now is HR in ST and even in AOE but TOMM just favours ranged and especially burst classes like WIZ more and as i have explained above. The most skilled barb i know can hold his own ground againt other pure dps classes, but if you compare the best barb with the best wiz, there will be at least 12-15% dps difference. Take it into account the fact that barb is a much more difficult class that is also melee, you'll find that on average the % difference is more, especially for TOMM. Actually, barb is a double edged sword, the bad ones can really be bad and i really mean it.

    There have been amazing dps warlocks too seen in TOMM but still behind the best barb but not awfully behind. I am the only DPS cleric that goes tomm in my guild and i would say that being ranged really gives me an advantage but i am also nowhere near WIZ. I don't know but right now i make lots of mistakes because DPS cleric is extremely difficult to play optimally and with each death you lose your PB stacks makes this a really challenging dungeon for us.

    So if warlocks get buffed, other non-dps classes like fighters and clerics would definitely want to see a buff too and barb should also be in the list. They can obviously adjust the buffs according to how bad the class is doing but i see more dps warlocks and barbs in TOMM than clerics so that should say something.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 258Member Arc User
    edited December 3
    With Arbiters and warlocks both ranged, Arbiters actually have an advantage over warlocks. Warlocks suffer abysmal ap gain, magnified by using soul scorch which effectively halts it all together if used. Both do lower sustained damage outside of buff windows, but arbiters hit much harder during the buff windows and can easily attain dailys to take advantage of them consistently with ap gain on par with cw.

    Arbiter daily damage exceeds warlocks with one crit on a hammer and even more so with up to 3. A fully pipped forge also hits much much harder than killing flames. In the end an Arbiters magnitude/hit rate though slower than most classes will still put it ahead ahead of a warlock in tomm, and even more so during buff windows.

    With equivalent gearing and stats arbiters will outperform warlocks due to base magnitude per rotation exceeding a warlocks, not including ap gain, dailys, or pips which further increase the gap.

    Divinity magnagment and pips outclass warlocks since most warlocks self buffs dont work together or at all in tomms mechanics.

    I agree many dps classes still need improvement to be on par with wizards in single target, but warlocks in particular are at the bottom of the bin.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    edited December 4
    mongol69 said:

    With Arbiters and warlocks both ranged, Arbiters actually have an advantage over warlocks. Warlocks suffer abysmal ap gain, magnified by using soul scorch which effectively halts it all together if used. Both do lower sustained damage outside of buff windows, but arbiters hit much harder during the buff windows and can easily attain dailys to take advantage of them consistently with ap gain on par with cw.



    Arbiter daily damage exceeds warlocks with one crit on a hammer and even more so with up to 3. A fully pipped forge also hits much much harder than killing flames. In the end an Arbiters magnitude/hit rate though slower than most classes will still put it ahead ahead of a warlock in tomm, and even more so during buff windows.



    With equivalent gearing and stats arbiters will outperform warlocks due to base magnitude per rotation exceeding a warlocks, not including ap gain, dailys, or pips which further increase the gap.



    Divinity magnagment and pips outclass warlocks since most warlocks self buffs dont work together or at all in tomms mechanics.



    I agree many dps classes still need improvement to be on par with wizards in single target, but warlocks in particular are at the bottom of the bin.

    Arbiter is arguably also the most difficult class to master and that is one big reason why you don't see arbiters at all in TOMM. One mistake and you have just lost all of your PB stacks or if you die, lose stacks again and don't start me with their slow casts. Arbiter also gets mistaken because of their high encounter magnitudes but no one looks at their kit because almost everything is sacrificed to keep the divinity healthy. Arbiters definitely do more dps than warlocks when played at skill ceiling, but i have yet to see a skill ceiling arbiter. You can't just ignore the difficulty of the class and just go with rough numbers. That's also why i am currently infuriated by the fact that all my guild members are swapping to wiz (even rogue mains) and mastering the class in less than a week and actually clearing TOMM. Throws any sense of difficulty out of the window and i am astonished by the dev's completely ignoring this. Also, please don't ever say to someone that arbiters can manage ap regen on par with wizards and if you do see a arbiter focusing on Ap gain than divinity gain, please let me know what is his encpds? My daily does 1300 (fastest cast time one) and my encounter does 750 with 1 pip, and i can cast 2 encounters in that time and they'll proc sudden verdict and even Perfect balance. Daily is on average 5% of our dps, we get our main dps from encounters.

    Out of curiosity, what is the highest encpds has a warlock managed in a completed TOMM run?
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 258Member Arc User
    edited December 4
    I run with 2 arbiters in tomm, both do exceptional damage for the class. In the end arbiter still about 60 to 65% damage of equally skilled and geared cws in a 15 to 17min tomm run, In contrast equally geared and stat warlocks do about 45 to 50% of cws on average. We run on console so I cant pull act logs. But as an example, logs during sunfall burst window my warlock averages about 7 to 8.7mil in 10 second burst window if everything crits while arbiters range from 12 to 16mil damage in same buff window. Both clerics build full pips for highest burst before buff window.

    Both arbiters struggle in comparrison to a cw that procs surge feat for ap gain, but both cw and arbiters can attain daily within buff window every minute, while in contrast a warlock takes on average 90 to 100 seconds to attain one daily.

    Magnitudes of a warlock is 950 for encounters and 50magnitude on .7sec at will and with parting blasphemy that adds 75 magnitude per cuse consume. Encounters are 16 to 13 seconds or 10 to 13 seconds depending on cdr per rotation. Only the First rotation is 1425 encounter magnitude and all following rotations are 1100 while the only achievable self buff is 7.5% after phase one. The daily can only be used every other burst window for 900 magnitude and should add 15% damage to attacks for 20 seconds but doesn't wai. Also, kf will add up to 200 magnitude damage but only when boss near death...

    Warlocks rotation vary depending on cdr from soul scorch, if ss is used then ap gain halts outright for about 3 seconds but reduces cool downs by about 3 seconds and up to 9 magnitude damage per spark spent, also initial encounter hit after ss still doesnt generate ap and for some strange reason encounter barely attain ap when they actually do, all encounters regardless of dot hits or size of initial hit generate less ap then atwill which is still lower than ap gain on any cw encounter or atwill.. So rotation can have 3 seconds shaved off, but at a cost of ap gain and loose damage % from consuming sparks from ss. Warlocks are a one trick pony, killing flames. But to fully utilize it it takes 58 to 190 seconds to fully proc depending on cdr usage but unfortunately, beyond phase one in tomm you are lucky to attain one stack. Phase 2 and sunfall you will never see a stack so essentially perma missing 20% buff. Using ss fluctuates spark mechanic buff from 0 to 7.5% so only fully stacked for one encounter kf per rotation. Dtd 5% dmg passive unusable since npnm needed to proc ebony chest and arms and acc required to use hg and cb, 12% dmg buff feat unusable. So essentially none of the warlock class buffs are available in tomm beyond spark stack dmg %.

    The class is a dumpster fire of contradicting feats, passives, mechanics, powers that dont work well in almost any actual combat scenario except killing trash mobs...

    The only way a warlock will out damage a arbiter of equal skill gearing and stats is if the arbiter runs a debuff artifact active while warlock runs a soulsight or atropol, and even then its close.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    edited December 4
    mongol69 said:

    I run with 2 arbiters in tomm, both do exceptional damage for the class. In the end arbiter still about 60 to 65% damage of equally skilled and geared cws in a 15 to 17min tomm run, In contrast equally geared and stat warlocks do about 45 to 50% of cws on average. We run on console so I cant pull act logs. But as an example, logs during sunfall burst window my warlock averages about 7 to 8.7mil in 10 second burst window if everything crits while arbiters range from 12 to 16mil damage in same buff window. Both clerics build full pips for highest burst before buff window.



    Both arbiters struggle in comparrison to a cw that procs surge feat for ap gain, but both cw and arbiters can attain daily within buff window every minute, while in contrast a warlock takes on average 90 to 100 seconds to attain one daily.



    Magnitudes of a warlock is 950 for encounters and 50magnitude on .7sec at will and with parting blasphemy that adds 75 magnitude per cuse consume. Encounters are 16 to 13 seconds or 10 to 13 seconds depending on cdr per rotation. Only the First rotation is 1425 encounter magnitude and all following rotations are 1100 while the only achievable self buff is 7.5% after phase one. The daily can only be used every other burst window for 900 magnitude and should add 15% damage to attacks for 20 seconds but doesn't wai. Also, kf will add up to 200 magnitude damage but only when boss near death...



    Warlocks rotation vary depending on cdr from soul scorch, if ss is used then ap gain halts outright for about 3 seconds but reduces cool downs by about 3 seconds and up to 9 magnitude damage per spark spent, also initial encounter hit after ss still doesnt generate ap and for some strange reason encounter barely attain ap when they actually do, all encounters regardless of dot hits or size of initial hit generate less ap then atwill which is still lower than ap gain on any cw encounter or atwill.. So rotation can have 3 seconds shaved off, but at a cost of ap gain and loose damage % from consuming sparks from ss. Warlocks are a one trick pony, killing flames. But to fully utilize it it takes 58 to 190 seconds to fully proc depending on cdr usage but unfortunately, beyond phase one in tomm you are lucky to attain one stack. Phase 2 and sunfall you will never see a stack so essentially perma missing 20% buff. Using ss fluctuates spark mechanic buff from 0 to 7.5% so only fully stacked for one encounter kf per rotation. Dtd 5% dmg passive unusable since npnm needed to proc ebony chest and arms and acc required to use hg and cb, 12% dmg buff feat unusable. So essentially none of the warlock class buffs are available in tomm beyond spark stack dmg %.



    The class is a dumpster fire of contradicting feats, passives, mechanics, powers that dont work well in almost any actual combat scenario except killing trash mobs...



    The only way a warlock will out damage a arbiter of equal skill gearing and stats is if the arbiter runs a debuff artifact active while warlock runs a soulsight or atropol, and even then its close.

    The problem is that people really haven't seen a good cw. I am in Crusaders right now, and the wiz's over there are managing 360encpds over 20+ mins in TOMM. I also thought arbiter was around 10-15% damage to CW until i saw these real beasts. Then don't forget that arbiters are prone to mistakes such as tabbing a Sudden verdict and there you go, 600 mag down the drain.

    Moreover don't forget a warlock has a much easier time doing AOE than arbiter, its tab allows you to cover greater distances and you can get CA at all times. Try playing an arbiter aoe and manage your divinity before the mob die. An arbiter is a simple slow casting encountering machine that has to constantly maintain its divinity. But i do agree that our Searing javelin covers greater aoe distance than any of your spells but we have to waste literally Daunting light to get PB stacks because the circle is so small that it usually only covers 1 target (for an aoe spell).

    That'll be like rangers getting the best ST dps when overall their AOE and rush is far ahead than arcanist's. If you're talking specifically about TOMM, there are these things to consider as well because they form part of your overall kit. I also noticed that your arbiter friends actually bothered to generate 6 pips with at wills, presuming it was lance of faith, which would mean that they took 4 seconds to generate 6 pips aka 600mag (about 300k average dmg at 200k power) but they should be doing more than 200k per second. You can do the maths so i am shocked your arbiter friends even considered this as the buff window is around 2x multiplier when they are losing a lot more than that. Other things to consider is that Warlocks can manage more procs of owlbear, tenebrous and other gear that arbiter is the lowest in the category. As for AP gain, wiz's are way ahead, we just on par with all other classes like they are supposed to be. Each class is intended to generate 1000AP in 1 min, if warlock doesn't do it, then they need a buff.

    Lastly, I specifically said that all classes needed compensation according to how bad they are doing and i also agree that ST wise, warlock is behind a Good arbiter but that doesn't change the fact that arbiter, fighter and even barbs need some form of compensation to not be neglected as dps for TOMM.
    Post edited by sobi#1980 on
  • molchar#7365 molchar Posts: 22Member Arc User
    Please make Curse Bite stack to 3 with a slightly quicker replenish of charges. Make Hellish Rebuke less potent but make it so it dispenses the curse/burn as an AoE.
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Posts: 93Member Arc User


    Incidentally they were told 2 months ago on PC that there was an issue with Dread Vault and missing time extend pickups - Today we get Dread Vault on PS4 and the problem is still exists where you can't run a x5. This is just how inept they are at listening and fixing issues, its actually quite pathetic.


    I didn't look at my group, but my pally was able to do 5x DV on first try with no time buffs. We weren't melting things, and we opened chests on the first 3 runs IIRC. We had 6min to spare on the timer to the right of the screen, but due to lag(?) it actually took 90min or so. We got our 45 coins, so we were happy.

    Would I try it again, I dunno, probably have to build a good group with everyone understanding that we may bale and regroup after 3 or 4 tries.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 258Member Arc User
    edited December 4
    Prior to buff windows all dps have at least 5 seconds to build pips, sparks, stack ebony chest and verified arm procs etc. if applicable to maximize self buffs prior to burst damage during buff windows just like in prior mods during one phase boss fights.

    Then a timed use of charm, black dragon, lantern, halaster, knives, banner, or frozen journals, and mounts like rex, 5 or 6 swarms, etc. To maximize buff/debuff window. Usually phase 2 or sunfall is only around 10 to 15 seconds total depending on player debuffs from any rez sickness or chains and maximizing group buffs.

    Only a select few artifacts would be used prior to buff window like atropol and any groups or players who dont utilise at least 5 seconds prior to buff window to build up and preproc lose massive group and personal burst damage.

    Also, obc, tenbreous, bile, etc. Do not have time to be effective during a good burst window and are mainly only effective during sustained damage periods. But even sustained fights are short when chunking 3 bars or more of hp off halister between each buff window with phases transitions after 2 bars. Runs can be faster by just timing buff windows to maximize skipping certain mechanics during the right phases to attain sub 13min runs but risk overlapping mechanics that kill players. Most of the time we hold dailys and only use artifacts and mounts to prevent overlaps preferring clean runs. Even during phase 2 you can holding all dailys for next burst window and burn it in less than 15 seconds total.

    In the end, groups that are heavy with cw dps are slower without arbiter, tr, etc. They just cant do the same burst chunks during buff windows. A balanced group is much faster and cleaner. Not to mention arbiters and cws go very well together since bts and roe are copy and paste buffs that increase the buff uptime.

    While warlocks dont synergize well with groups nor have the same sustained or burst damage potential. They are actually the only class that is a burden to tomm groups as dps adding no benefit that any other dps class cant outperform or contribute more in its stead. Even a cw with 40k less power can outperform a maxed endgame dps warlock. Just like the op thread title states, warlocks are lacking in single target.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    mongol69 said:

    Prior to buff windows all dps have at least 5 seconds to build pips, sparks, stack ebony chest and verified arm procs etc. if applicable to maximize self buffs prior to burst damage during buff windows just like in prior mods during one phase boss fights.



    Then a timed use of charm, black dragon, lantern, halaster, knives, banner, or frozen journals, and mounts like rex, 5 or 6 swarms, etc. To maximize buff/debuff window. Usually phase 2 or sunfall is only around 10 to 15 seconds total depending on player debuffs from any rez sickness or chains and maximizing group buffs.



    Only a select few artifacts would be used prior to buff window like atropol and any groups or players who dont utilise at least 5 seconds prior to buff window to build up and preproc lose massive group and personal burst damage.



    Also, obc, tenbreous, bile, etc. Do not have time to be effective during a good burst window and are mainly only effective during sustained damage periods. But even sustained fights are short when chunking 3 bars or more of hp off halister between each buff window with phases transitions after 2 bars. Runs can be faster by just timing buff windows to maximize skipping certain mechanics during the right phases to attain sub 13min runs but risk overlapping mechanics that kill players. Most of the time we hold dailys and only use artifacts and mounts to prevent overlaps preferring clean runs. Even during phase 2 you can holding all dailys for next burst window and burn it in less than 15 seconds total.



    In the end, groups that are heavy with cw dps are slower without arbiter, tr, etc. They just cant do the same burst chunks during buff windows. A balanced group is much faster and cleaner. Not to mention arbiters and cws go very well together since bts and roe are copy and paste buffs that increase the buff uptime.



    While warlocks dont synergize well with groups nor have the same sustained or burst damage potential. They are actually the only class that is a burden to tomm groups as dps adding no benefit that any other dps class cant outperform or contribute more in its stead. Even a cw with 40k less power can outperform a maxed endgame dps warlock. Just like the op thread title states, warlocks are lacking in single target.

    You probably don't know your class well enough or are not playing it at skill ceiling. You constantly change the topic to burst when dps is precisely the opposite. If you burst 10 seconds and then go oom and do literally no damage for some time (literally arbiter) then you don't take the first 10 seconds as your dps. Read Noworries comment below and please realise that i only compare skill ceiling players and Xbox is clearly lacking those from how you consider dps should be and your very definition of dps concerns me.

    "Class Balance

    We agree that there is an imbalance in the DPS roles. In M19 the two main classes being adjusted for balance are the Dreadnought and the Hellbringer. When M18 comes to preview we will have information on a few adjustments to Arcanist feats/class mechanics to bring them more in line with the balance target (I realize saying this will make people think the worst, but Arcanist will still be powerful after those adjustments and the changes will be available as preview goes live for feedback).

    All of that is important context for the following part of that discussion. First is that there will never be perfect balance across the classes, and there will always be some classes that are harder to play and therefore under-perform for a more casual player, but can potentially even over-perform for a particularly skilled player. We have created a lot of analytics on class balance since M16. These include normalized damage charts, whisker plots, and percentile graphs, which we can filter by time ranges, classes, and specific content. We are actively using this information for how to tackle class balance.

    As a general point, Assassin in most charts is right around where we feel ideal balance should be right now. Since ToMM was brought up, let's take a look at the PC results from 1 Nov to this morning, and use Assassin as a baseline for where the other classes are at when running that content. I think players may be surprised at where some of the classes line up in this comparison.

    Class -> Damage performance in ToMM +/- %

    Arcanist +3%
    Blademaster +1.8%
    Warden +1.5%
    Assassin --
    Hellbringer -1.6%
    Dreadnaught -3%
    Arbiter -6%


    It is clear there are outliers in Arcanist, Dreadnaught, and Arbiter. The others, however, are all very close together and in general would be considered all within an acceptable range of balance. In charts that include a wider range of content (or all content) there are larger percentage differences which shows there are more areas of balance to tackle than this one chart shows. ToMM is a useful example to see how the classes compare when played by top tier IL players, and hopefully also shows that ToMM is complete-able (and has been completed) by all classes in the game.

    Changes from this chart compared to more broad charts show a larger positive differential for Arcanist and Warden, brings Blademaster below Assassin with Hellbringer right behind that and brings Arbiter above Dreadnought. You see a wider variance when including a larger selection of content as it adds a far greater percentage of the player base into the damage pool.

    There were some paragon paths not listed there, such as Whisperknife, Hunter, and Thaumaturge. Whisperknife and Hunter are not performing where we'd like, and are paths we want to work on, however since those classes have very solid paths as their other choices, that puts the priority a bit further down the list on class work."


    Seriously, if i told you a blademaster was actually out dps'ing an assasin, would you believe it? No, but my guild has a barb that can do it. You just point out all the good stuff of the other classes, then pick out all the cons of your class and there we go, the warlock being the weakest rant is over. Please realise, you just haven't seen a good warlock and i can tell you, you are comparing your arbiters with sub optimal wiz's. Compare with a real beast wiz and you'll wake up.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 258Member Arc User
    edited December 5
    Well @sobi#1980 i would love to see the screenshot of a warlock or arbiter within those ranges of damage above tbh. Because in all reality thier use of "normalized" appears to mean skewed. Take a snapshot of data collection with all the fails, and data from the fewer successful and everything comes out a muddled mess. I guarantee you if they filter out only data from successfully completed runs the data would show a drastic change in thier reported damage differentials.

    And no I was not dodging the dps rate question, but already explained that I'm on console. There are no existing methods for determining accurate dps rates for console. Hence my breakdown of factors that influence the rate and using burst windows as a frame of rough estimation since it's possible to review 4 or 5 pages or logs in a 10 second period and compare.

    If you honestly believe what you quoted from the devs as reasonable evidence thats completely up to you, but myself and everyone I have talked to are quite skeptical of those numbers posted by noworries.

    As to my skill as a warlock that's arguable, but I can say that I am the only dps warlock on console with multiple full team deathless tomm runs to compare with other class damage within deathless runs as a baseline at this time, including arbiters. I also run a max endgame cw with multiple deathless runs. The class results whether mine or other players we complete with have the same damage results within a small margin barring deaths and debuffs and equally geared and stat maxed toons.

    But, since I don't run my DC as arbiter since I primarily built and run mine as a healer in tomm I rely on others I run with to compare. We also have deathless runs with barbi dps and as I stated in other threads, the result is closer to 75 to 85% damage of our cws. Thier damage can also vary depending on going full tryhard and swapping powers and passives between phases, but same can be said with wizards swapping passives, etc. between phases. As I said earlier we run our main group with a variety of all classes but still try to maximize overall damage and timing for sustained and burst damage to farm tomm efficiently since we all have multiple endgame classes we run though, including other players we farm with to compare our results.

    At this time I only have 140 lost scrolls but have completed many more runs due to the 20 scroll limit per toon per week and buying weapons to complete some sets for alts early on. I usually exceed the limit on all toons before Wednesday every week. Not to mention training runs we hold for guild and alliance members and I run consistantly with four other groups as well depending on the time of day. So, I'm fairly confident of our results at this point when comparing class damage at or near ceiling.

    Also, comparing damage in 20+minute runs as you stated isnt quite the same as our average 15 minute let alone speed runs. The faster the run the less max damage potential of warlocks since 20% of thier buffs requires 58 to 190 seconds to even attain, if puppet doesnt die, phases, etc dont rest stacks. So sure warlocks do perform better in 20+ minute runs, but nothing remotely close to what you quoted from noworries. There is a time limit to sunfall, and thus a limit for a players active damage output in slower groups without incurring fails.

    Unfortunately I'm not just chery picking the negatives of the warlock class, I went over warlock mechanics and they are what they are, cant be helped the mechanics, passives and feats are as I stated above and as myself and others have brought up in multiple threads, completely self defeating for the class coupled with subpar magnitudes compared to every dps class role.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    mongol69 said:

    Well @sobi#1980 i would love to see the screenshot of a warlock or arbiter within those ranges of damage above tbh. Because in all reality thier use of "normalized" appears to mean skewed. Take a snapshot of data collection with all the fails, and data from the fewer successful and everything comes out a muddled mess. I guarantee you if they filter out only data from successfully completed runs the data would show a drastic change in thier reported damage differentials.



    role.

    Sorry, i will just quote a portion of your comment, so as not to fill the chat. All i am trying to get across is that a wiz is way too easy to play close to optimally, in TOMM, and the fact that they enjoy the biggest burst also means that they will always out dps everyone. But this doesn't mean that there are no skill ceiling wiz's. A skill ceiling wiz would have at least 20% more dps than an average wiz. This difference is bigger for an average and skill ceiling arbiter because skill ceiling for arbiter is much harder to reach and even i don't consider myself skill ceiling as i make a lot of mistakes.

    I can tell you that if i play my cleric optimally with no mistakes ( i doubt that's ever going to happen), i can match a skill ceiling wiz's damage. I can pm you my encpds over 3-5mins dummy test but i started playing TOMM 2 weeks ago and i am certainly beating average wiz's, and literally coming within 10% of dps of top rated wiz's in Phase 1 only (without lion heart), then it gets a bit too hectic for an arbiter to not make mistakes. The reason i jumped my guns about "you're not playing at skill ceiling" is because dps should be sustained damage at all time. Burst damage has to be translated into sustained damage which dps actually is.

    So for example, if a wiz has black ice overload enchantments and gets 1x quick action proc per minute, they can regen their daily within 30-40 seconds. Usually, if you run with good dps, you can skip a phase per minute so it will boil down to whether the wiz would want to risk using its daily without artifacts first and hope that the next daily comes within the buff window. I imagine this is what separates a good to bad wiz in tomm and envenomed really can help with this. Consider arbiter, i know for a fact that if i use my daily without the buff window, there is no way i am getting the daily within the buff window so i just hold onto my daily and benefit from 1.8-2x buff window. So if i generate my AP around 45-50secs with black ice overload enchantment, then waiting for that extra 10-15 seconds will boost my daily's damage by 1.8x-2x and this translated into me doing more sustained dps because i am sacrificing a small sustained damage and compensating it with a huge burst damage.

    But when you said that your arbiter friends used 6x at wills to generate pips during the initial 5 seconds to stack up, then i am telling you, they are not playing the class optimally. Arbiter literally has the ability to non-stop spam encounters, even during the stacking they should be using encounters as that will definitely increase their dps and would be easier to stack chest and gloves without crits. You on the other hand, completely ignore the 5 seconds of stacking window and consider it just for stacking, and then compare the burst in the buff window of each class to warlocks, which apparently the latter is not designed for. You clearly do DOT's over burst damage, so while TOMM might not be a good fit for your class, who knows, a good hellbring might be really good in "lets say", in mod 18 dungeon where where sustained dps is more desirable.

    My attitude also changed when i saw these top skill ceiling players. Top wiz's in my guild are doing 360encpds over 20+ minutes on practice TOMM runs i.e. where noobs get you killed. Next time i come across an ACT result, i will save it for you.
  • tom#6998 tom Posts: 804Member Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    mongol69 said:

    Well @sobi#1980 i would love to see the screenshot of a warlock or arbiter within those ranges of damage above tbh. Because in all reality thier use of "normalized" appears to mean skewed. Take a snapshot of data collection with all the fails, and data from the fewer successful and everything comes out a muddled mess. I guarantee you if they filter out only data from successfully completed runs the data would show a drastic change in thier reported damage differentials.



    role.

    Sorry, i will just quote a portion of your comment, so as not to fill the chat. All i am trying to get across is that a wiz is way too easy to play close to optimally, in TOMM, and the fact that they enjoy the biggest burst also means that they will always out dps everyone. But this doesn't mean that there are no skill ceiling wiz's. A skill ceiling wiz would have at least 20% more dps than an average wiz. This difference is bigger for an average and skill ceiling arbiter because skill ceiling for arbiter is much harder to reach and even i don't consider myself skill ceiling as i make a lot of mistakes.

    I can tell you that if i play my cleric optimally with no mistakes ( i doubt that's ever going to happen), i can match a skill ceiling wiz's damage. I can pm you my encpds over 3-5mins dummy test but i started playing TOMM 2 weeks ago and i am certainly beating average wiz's, and literally coming within 10% of dps of top rated wiz's in Phase 1 only (without lion heart), then it gets a bit too hectic for an arbiter to not make mistakes. The reason i jumped my guns about "you're not playing at skill ceiling" is because dps should be sustained damage at all time. Burst damage has to be translated into sustained damage which dps actually is.

    So for example, if a wiz has black ice overload enchantments and gets 1x quick action proc per minute, they can regen their daily within 30-40 seconds. Usually, if you run with good dps, you can skip a phase per minute so it will boil down to whether the wiz would want to risk using its daily without artifacts first and hope that the next daily comes within the buff window. I imagine this is what separates a good to bad wiz in tomm and envenomed really can help with this. Consider arbiter, i know for a fact that if i use my daily without the buff window, there is no way i am getting the daily within the buff window so i just hold onto my daily and benefit from 1.8-2x buff window. So if i generate my AP around 45-50secs with black ice overload enchantment, then waiting for that extra 10-15 seconds will boost my daily's damage by 1.8x-2x and this translated into me doing more sustained dps because i am sacrificing a small sustained damage and compensating it with a huge burst damage.

    But when you said that your arbiter friends used 6x at wills to generate pips during the initial 5 seconds to stack up, then i am telling you, they are not playing the class optimally. Arbiter literally has the ability to non-stop spam encounters, even during the stacking they should be using encounters as that will definitely increase their dps and would be easier to stack chest and gloves without crits. You on the other hand, completely ignore the 5 seconds of stacking window and consider it just for stacking, and then compare the burst in the buff window of each class to warlocks, which apparently the latter is not designed for. You clearly do DOT's over burst damage, so while TOMM might not be a good fit for your class, who knows, a good hellbring might be really good in "lets say", in mod 18 dungeon where where sustained dps is more desirable.

    My attitude also changed when i saw these top skill ceiling players. Top wiz's in my guild are doing 360encpds over 20+ minutes on practice TOMM runs i.e. where noobs get you killed. Next time i come across an ACT result, i will save it for you.
    just some comments:

    1. Warlock has no significant DOT dps
    2. ToMM is about sustained dps, its literally a single target over more then 1 min.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    mongol69 said:

    Well @sobi#1980 i would love to see the screenshot of a warlock or arbiter within those ranges of damage above tbh. Because in all reality thier use of "normalized" appears to mean skewed. Take a snapshot of data collection with all the fails, and data from the fewer successful and everything comes out a muddled mess. I guarantee you if they filter out only data from successfully completed runs the data would show a drastic change in thier reported damage differentials.



    role.

    Sorry, i will just quote a portion of your comment, so as not to fill the chat. All i am trying to get across is that a wiz is way too easy to play close to optimally, in TOMM, and the fact that they enjoy the biggest burst also means that they will always out dps everyone. But this doesn't mean that there are no skill ceiling wiz's. A skill ceiling wiz would have at least 20% more dps than an average wiz. This difference is bigger for an average and skill ceiling arbiter because skill ceiling for arbiter is much harder to reach and even i don't consider myself skill ceiling as i make a lot of mistakes.

    I can tell you that if i play my cleric optimally with no mistakes ( i doubt that's ever going to happen), i can match a skill ceiling wiz's damage. I can pm you my encpds over 3-5mins dummy test but i started playing TOMM 2 weeks ago and i am certainly beating average wiz's, and literally coming within 10% of dps of top rated wiz's in Phase 1 only (without lion heart), then it gets a bit too hectic for an arbiter to not make mistakes. The reason i jumped my guns about "you're not playing at skill ceiling" is because dps should be sustained damage at all time. Burst damage has to be translated into sustained damage which dps actually is.

    So for example, if a wiz has black ice overload enchantments and gets 1x quick action proc per minute, they can regen their daily within 30-40 seconds. Usually, if you run with good dps, you can skip a phase per minute so it will boil down to whether the wiz would want to risk using its daily without artifacts first and hope that the next daily comes within the buff window. I imagine this is what separates a good to bad wiz in tomm and envenomed really can help with this. Consider arbiter, i know for a fact that if i use my daily without the buff window, there is no way i am getting the daily within the buff window so i just hold onto my daily and benefit from 1.8-2x buff window. So if i generate my AP around 45-50secs with black ice overload enchantment, then waiting for that extra 10-15 seconds will boost my daily's damage by 1.8x-2x and this translated into me doing more sustained dps because i am sacrificing a small sustained damage and compensating it with a huge burst damage.

    But when you said that your arbiter friends used 6x at wills to generate pips during the initial 5 seconds to stack up, then i am telling you, they are not playing the class optimally. Arbiter literally has the ability to non-stop spam encounters, even during the stacking they should be using encounters as that will definitely increase their dps and would be easier to stack chest and gloves without crits. You on the other hand, completely ignore the 5 seconds of stacking window and consider it just for stacking, and then compare the burst in the buff window of each class to warlocks, which apparently the latter is not designed for. You clearly do DOT's over burst damage, so while TOMM might not be a good fit for your class, who knows, a good hellbring might be really good in "lets say", in mod 18 dungeon where where sustained dps is more desirable.

    My attitude also changed when i saw these top skill ceiling players. Top wiz's in my guild are doing 360encpds over 20+ minutes on practice TOMM runs i.e. where noobs get you killed. Next time i come across an ACT result, i will save it for you.
    just some comments:

    1. Warlock has no significant DOT dps
    2. ToMM is about sustained dps, its literally a single target over more then 1 min.
    Warlock doesn't do burst, lets agree with that?

    TOMM is sustained dps as i have stated above, but you take the buff window into account. So for example, in P2, a wiz is capable of dishing out around 800encpds, which obviously isn't there real dps until you take the whole run into account. Also, if you're telling me that you rather use your daily 10 seconds before the buff window because keeping the daily for 10 seconds extra is a loss of sustained dps then i must be completely wrong about TOMM. You will have to calculate your sustained dps loss with the gain in the buff window.

    I am awfully behind wiz's in tomm but the same wiz's i am awfully behind, i can match their dummy tests over minutes. I just can't mimic that into tomm, maybe i just suck at my class but i wish i had an arbiter to look up to. Even to noworries, my main worry is that arbiter as a class is extremely unforgiving to mistakes and barb is next in line. I can't say anything about hellbringer and fighters. But i do know that the top wiz's in my guild are a complete aliens, you just can't come close to their dps.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 258Member Arc User
    edited December 5
    People have the misconception that warlocks are still high dot based classes, the 1.5 magnitude dots from soulscortch sparks are a joke, creeping death dots are broken/nonviable, the dots from hfr and hg are very short and mediocre dot since not wai/listed magnitudes and overall a very small percentage of damage. Hg is mainly used to buff kf, while hfr in tomm is about worthless since even a single fiery bolt crit does more damage than a hfr with all crits and niether are good for single target. Hfr now is really only good for spark generation and applying curses on initial hit for aoe after last "balance" pass to magnitudes.

    As stated prior, warlocks are a one trick pony with kf being the lions share of overall damage and cb/parting blasphemy now being a close second in tomm since si stacking is near impossible past phase one. My wizard does about 50 to 55% more damage than my own and other hellbringer warlocks.

    Also, no one has even argued that wizards dont deal rediculous damage in comparrison. Any properly built endgame wizard will put up 220mil to 260mil in a proper grouped tomm run. In a weaker group I'll easily pull over 300mil on my cw while warlocks are hard pressed to pull over 110mil in any decent group when rng gods smile upon them, even arbiters have a hard time pulling over 120mil in a fast clean run. Neither has anyone argued against other dps classes needing single target improvement as well. But as the op thread title stated for discussion, warlocks severely lack single target damage.

    One other quick note, personal damage isnt really the goal in tomm. A cw could swap disintigrate onto tab instead of roe to get more personal damage. But, that reduces uptime of roe buff for ranged damage just for personal damage which reduces overall speed and damage of other encounters for all ranged attacks. Also, many cws go tryhard and change up apf passive during dps check to increase bursts damage and will outperform those that don't. While darkened journals will put damage up quite a bit more personal damage as well, but at the expense of stressing healers since adds exceed target healing limits and with the expense of party deaths. Same with going full damage rotations early on vs allowing tanks to establish high agro/threat early on. Speed runs especially incur excess deaths.

    Our group chooses cleaner runs over personal glory to reduce overall cost and stress of runs. I still have the same healthstones equiped for the last three weeks in all toons and usually dont use more than 5 scrolls of life in excess of 20 runs. We actually helped 5 players from other groups get thier capes and title in one night alone. We prioritize efficiency for the sanity of our dps and support players. When playing with other groups and players from other group most agree with our run philosophy.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    edited December 5
    mongol69 said:

    People have the misconception that warlocks are still high dot based classes, the 1.5 magnitude dots from soulscortch sparks are a joke, creeping death dots are broken/nonviable, the dots from hfr and hg are very short and mediocre dot since not wai/listed magnitudes and overall a very small percentage of damage. Hg is mainly used to buff kf, while hfr in tomm is about worthless since even a single fiery bolt crit does more damage than a hfr with all crits and niether are good for single target. Hfr now is really only good for spark generation and applying curses on initial hit for aoe after last "balance" pass to magnitudes.



    As stated prior, warlocks are a one trick pony with kf being the lions share of overall damage and cb/parting blasphemy now being a close second in tomm since si stacking is near impossible past phase one. My wizard does about 50 to 55% more damage than my own and other hellbringer warlocks.



    Also, no one has even argued that wizards dont deal rediculous damage in comparrison. Any properly built endgame wizard will put up 220mil to 260mil in a proper grouped tomm run. In a weaker group I'll easily pull over 300mil on my cw while warlocks are hard pressed to pull over 110mil in any decent group when rng gods smile upon them, even arbiters have a hard time pulling over 120mil in a fast clean run. Neither has anyone argued against other dps classes needing single target improvement as well. But as the op thread title stated for discussion, warlocks severely lack single target damage.



    One other quick note, personal damage isnt really the goal in tomm. A cw could swap disintigrate onto tab instead of roe to get more personal damage. But, that reduces uptime of roe buff for ranged damage just for personal damage which reduces overall speed and damage of other encounters for all ranged attacks. Also, many cws go tryhard and change up apf passive during dps check to increase bursts damage and will outperform those that don't. While darkened journals will put damage up quite a bit more personal damage as well, but at the expense of stressing healers since adds exceed target healing limits and with the expense of party deaths. Same with going full damage rotations early on vs allowing tanks to establish high agro/threat early on. Speed runs especially incur excess deaths.



    Our group chooses cleaner runs over personal glory to reduce overall cost and stress of runs. I still have the same healthstones equiped for the last three weeks in all toons and usually dont use more than 5 scrolls of life in excess of 20 runs. We actually helped 5 players from other groups get thier capes and title in one night alone. We prioritize efficiency for the sanity of our dps and support players. When playing with other groups and players from other group most agree with our run philosophy. Once they run with us or watch us most have shifted playstyle within tomm to match.

    I never disagreed with warlocks not needing a buff but arbiter needs it just as much and fighters. If arbiter is performing more in your books, it must still be very close, then considering the number of arbiter to warlocks completing tomm's, you could even say that arbiters are just as deep in the water as warlocks are. You just find more warlocks than arbiters because arbiter is a post-mod 16 class. The point was to show that arbiter might be better dps in the books, but in reality the class is doing worse than warlocks because reaching skill ceiling with it is no joke. It was yourselves who was exagerating the arbiter's dps. On dummy i can dish out mad dmg, but in TOMM, it just doesn't translate for me, and i have yet to see an arbiter who can translate it.
    Post edited by sobi#1980 on
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Posts: 58Member Arc User
    > @sobi#1980 said:
    > (Quote)
    > I never said they don't. Actually, the top dps right now is HR in ST and even in AOE but TOMM just favours ranged and especially burst classes like WIZ more and as i have explained above. The most skilled barb i know can hold his own ground againt other pure dps classes, but if you compare the best barb with the best wiz, there will be at least 12-15% dps difference. Take it into account the fact that barb is a much more difficult class that is also melee, you'll find that on average the % difference is more, especially for TOMM. Actually, barb is a double edged sword, the bad ones can really be bad and i really mean it.
    >
    > There have been amazing dps warlocks too seen in TOMM but still behind the best barb but not awfully behind. I am the only DPS cleric that goes tomm in my guild and i would say that being ranged really gives me an advantage but i am also nowhere near WIZ. I don't know but right now i make lots of mistakes because DPS cleric is extremely difficult to play optimally and with each death you lose your PB stacks makes this a really challenging dungeon for us.
    >
    > So if warlocks get buffed, other non-dps classes like fighters and clerics would definitely want to see a buff too and barb should also be in the list. They can obviously adjust the buffs according to how bad the class is doing but i see more dps warlocks and barbs in TOMM than clerics so that should say something.

    This is not true. I run TOMM several times per day, am probably top 3 rangers in all of neverwinter (Neko-kun on pc), and top wizards destroy me. Their single target is hands down, BY FAR, the best.
  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 258Member Arc User
    edited December 5
    There was no exaggerating arbiter damage. And yes, most players know test dummies have never give accurate results. As an example, a warlocks plugging away on a test dummy can easily obtain 5 si stacks in 58 seconds but near impossible in actual combat damage with mechanics.

    There are dps DCs on ps4 and have been for many mods. There have been one phase dps DCs, top dps DCs in codg like, trezbait, though he mained a cw, and yes arbiters in tomm currently. If your interested in seeing thier results some do stream thier runs and have posted screenshots prior mods and now. Off the top of my head you can check out the arbiter, devoted failure, since I know he streams his tomm runs and as his pally main, failadin.

    But at this point I'd prefer to stop going off op thread topic.

    So @sobi#1980 in refrence to your statement
    "You just point out all the good stuff of the other classes, then pick out all the cons of your class and there we go, the warlock being the weakest rant is over. Please realise, you just haven't seen a good warlock and i can tell you, you are comparing your arbiters with sub optimal wiz's. Compare with a real beast wiz and you'll wake up."

    Well, this is a thread on warlocks lacking single target damage and what I was discussing above was a breakdown and comparrison with other classes, including wizards and arbiters. As to a solution, well I believe were beyond the point of magnitude adjustments without overhauling the actual class mechanics at this time.

    As to not comparing with "real beast wiz" and not seeing good warlocks in discussion above as you stated ". If wizards are doing as you stated 20% more than 220 to 260mil damage in a fast clean 15min or faster runs as I compared above, while good arbiters and warlocks are above 110mil within the same run, I'd love to see those screenshots. If, as you stated, I'm unfamiliar with " beast" wizards and good warlocks, no other baseline is valid unless perfect no death runs.

    I'm used to seeing at least cw dps averaging 260 to 220mil in deathless runs with warlocks pulling 45 to 50% of that, and arbiters pulling 50 to 60% of wizards in those runs. I'm not including longer drawn out runs since as I stated above, my cw can easily pull over 300mil in a 17min run or runs where other dps have chains or rez sickness, etc. Which isn't a valid baseline.

    Nor comparing to a cw whereas it uses disintigrate on tab and others using roe or using darkened journals and others not, etc. which skew the comparrison further. Also, speed runs are not a good baseline since typically they stray from the meta using one or two healers, a solo tank and typically excessive deaths to support and dps. In the end giving one player an edge will skew the results, same as support dropping rune on only one cw or any other buffs like pillar, etc. Those are not skill comparisons but damage board glory hounds at the expense of overall group damage as I also discussed above.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    mongol69 said:

    There was no exaggerating arbiter damage. And yes, most players know test dummies have never give accurate results. As an example, a warlocks plugging away on a test dummy can easily obtain 5 si stacks in 58 seconds but near impossible in actual combat damage with mechanics.



    There are dps DCs on ps4 and have been for many mods. There have been one phase dps DCs, top dps DCs in codg like, trezbait, though he mained a cw, and yes arbiters in tomm currently. If your interested in seeing thier results some do stream thier runs and have posted screenshots prior mods and now. Off the top of my head you can check out the arbiter, devoted failure, since I know he streams his tomm runs and as his pally main, failadin.



    But at this point I'd prefer to stop going off op thread topic.



    So @sobi#1980 in refrence to your statement

    "You just point out all the good stuff of the other classes, then pick out all the cons of your class and there we go, the warlock being the weakest rant is over. Please realise, you just haven't seen a good warlock and i can tell you, you are comparing your arbiters with sub optimal wiz's. Compare with a real beast wiz and you'll wake up."



    Well, this is a thread on warlocks lacking single target damage and what I was discussing above was a breakdown and comparrison with other classes, including wizards and arbiters. As to a solution, well I believe were beyond the point of magnitude adjustments without overhauling the actual class mechanics at this time.



    As to not comparing with "real beast wiz" and not seeing good warlocks in discussion above as you stated ". If wizards are doing as you stated 20% more than 220 to 260mil damage in a fast clean 15min or faster runs as I compared above, while good arbiters and warlocks are above 110mil within the same run, I'd love to see those screenshots. If, as you stated, I'm unfamiliar with " beast" wizards and good warlocks, no other baseline is valid unless perfect no death runs.



    I'm used to seeing at least cw dps averaging 260 to 220mil in deathless runs with warlocks pulling 45 to 50% of that, and arbiters pulling 50 to 60% of wizards in those runs. I'm not including longer drawn out runs since as I stated above, my cw can easily pull over 300mil in a 17min run or runs where other dps have chains or rez sickness, etc. Which isn't a valid baseline.



    Nor comparing to a cw whereas it uses disintigrate on tab and others using roe or using darkened journals and others not, etc. which skew the comparrison further. Also, speed runs are not a good baseline since typically they stray from the meta using one or two healers, a solo tank and typically excessive deaths to support and dps. In the end giving one player an edge will skew the results, same as support dropping rune on only one cw or any other buffs like pillar, etc. Those are not skill comparisons but damage board glory hounds at the expense of overall group damage as I also discussed above.


    Dummy test will never translate perfectly into any dungeon and that is the reality but TOMM is probably the best dungeon to compare your dummy results. Wizards are doing so much better in TOMM because they can translate their dummy tests better in TOMM than any other class can. Arbiter on the other hand is arguably the hardest class to translate its dummy dps into TOMM and as the dev's statistics show. That doesn't however mean that arbiters do not have the capacity to do more dps than warlocks and fighters because i genuinely think that they do.

    My asnwer to the OP's thread is that Warlocks and Arbiters and other classes all need a buff in TOMM. I don't have to start a fresh thread to state that extra bit about arbiters and other classes also lacking dps.

    Below are some quotes from our previous comments:

    My answer to the OP "
    The solution to your problem is not a warlock buff, its more of a buff to all ST lacking DPS. They all get the same treatment when looking for a group to join TOMM. "

    Then your reply to me:
    "With Arbiters and warlocks both ranged, Arbiters actually have an advantage over warlocks."

    You were basically trying to get across that warlocks need love before any other class and i was trying to get across that we all get treated the same way in TOMM. Actually, my guild would be more willing to accept a dps warlock than a DPS cleric, because they had never seen a dps cleric in TOMM and this guild holds training TOMM sessions daily and has 2 separate guilds for live TOMM members and preview members.

    I am always up to learn new things, so i'll check out those streamers you mentioned.

  • mongol69mongol69 Posts: 258Member Arc User
    edited December 7
    I was stating observed and discussed results with both arbiters our group runs with. As I stated some arbiters actually streamed results of warlocks and arbiters in the same runs.

    But my statement still stands,
    within hundreds of tomm completions including deathless runs, with diffrent arbiters and warlocks both in our group and other groups, results have been good arbiters have an advantage over good warlocks as I discussed above when comparing both in actual tomm completions.

    But hey, as your quoted statement from noworries shows all classes are within less than a 10% damage differential of each other. So, everyone's free to draw their own conclusions.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 288Member Arc User
    edited December 7
    mongol69 said:

    I was stating observed and discussed results with both arbiters our group runs with. As I stated some arbiters actually streamed results of warlocks and arbiters in the same runs.



    But my statement still stands,

    within hundreds of tomm completions including deathless runs, with diffrent arbiters and warlocks both in our group and other groups, results have been good arbiters have an advantage over good warlocks as I discussed above when comparing both in actual tomm completions.



    But hey, as your quoted statement from noworries shows all classes are within less than a 10% damage differential of each other. So, everyone's free to draw their own conclusions.

    My intention to quote noworries' was to show you that arbiter is doing worse than hellbringer and as per their statistics. People also tend to forget that balancing classes has to be done after looking at their overall performance and not TOMM and that's specifically what i told you that Warlock as a class is not best suited for TOMM. You can't just make every class burst class because they don't compliment TOMM.

    But as noworries has confirmed, Dreadnought and Hellbringer will be reworked before Arbiter and even if Arbiter should have been on their priority list over hellbringer as per the stats, my point about there being more dps warlocks than arbiters proves this. There is no real arbiter dps i have see, everyone i know who goes dps arbiter played healer before it or plays healer predominantly. I play arbiter 99% of the time . lol
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