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Why must the map always show where to go for quest objectives?

Some quests involve searching for lost persons or items and yet miraculously the map shows where to find the "missing" objective/s.

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  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Posts: 83Member Arc User
    edited November 15
    Because we are not in old days RPG. Latest generations of MMORplayers (it's a bit of a generalization, but it's definitely way more the case than back in the 90s) tend to not care about RP (or don't even know what the real meaning of RP), they don't care about storytelling, they skip skip skip through dialogues and go action. They don't want to read or watch cutscenes, they are not in a book or a film but in a video game !

    They want to be on rails rather than to have to search by themselves, they don't want to balance the pro and cons of doing a quest, understand the reasons, what they exactly have to do, where they can find the clues, what is the plot, the implications, the possible consequences.
    They want brainless action, not "a book where you are the hero".

    Hence :
    - no big choices, everything has to be done mostly exactly the same for everyone as we kind of must be the good army guy in NWO following orders (no quest with meaningful multiple possible solutions/outcomes for the character, no alignement consequences, not possible to refuse a quest without making the story impossible to continue, etc) and must accept the quests to progress in the campaigns even if that doesn't make sense RP-wise for the character (Help Makos who seems to have turn lichstyle, and raise a rotten zombified Celeste from the deads ??? no way my Cleric would agree to do that if I were on a table&paper game ! My rogue would have if the reward is good ^^). Obviously it's way harder to design a MMORPG with real choices in quests : what a player hasn't chosen is "lost content", development want to hit as many players as possible when designing the content and not working on alternate ending and followings for the quests as it would mean one player on his first toon would explore only a fragment of the dev work.

    - the automark on map + glowing path to follow, because nowdays players are considered too dumb to read and know (or remember) where they have to go after accepting a quest. Can also be a way to let people play without understanding, for the case they only read a language that is not one the game is translated in. English/french/deutch/spanish/russian/polish/italian/portuguese, i'm not sure if NWO is translated to more than these languages, that cover a lot, but i'm sure some few players around there can't really read or speak any of these but still play.

  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Posts: 712Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    You can push Z to remove the path and remove the minimap in the HUD options.

    but hey most people dream would be:
    cutscene -> "push square" -> cutscene -> "push triangle" -> tadaaaaa quest done.
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  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 604Member Arc User
    Did Mankrik's wife's death teach us nothing?

    Sorry. I enjoy the story as much as the next guy, but the story ain't always that great and a chat window constantly full of "where is ?" is not really what anyone wants.

    So you know the area you are supposed to look in. You might even know a very small area in which you will find your objective.
    That doesn't take the game away. There will still be story revealed. There may still be enemies to fight.

    But at least no one will be hopelessly lost, wondering where in the entire zone is this single small quest objective that is preventing them from getting on with the story/game.

    And, as stated, if you want to dump the pathing you can dump the pathing.
    Feel free to keep the map closed and go searching for as many needles in as many haystacks as you wish.

    But that isn't what some people think of when they hear the word 'fun'.
  • roadkill#6177 roadkill Posts: 175Member Arc User
    I knew about removing the quest path but I'm HAMSTER that I didn't realize I could hide the Mini Map.
  • roadkill#6177 roadkill Posts: 175Member Arc User
    edited November 20
    However, it's not a "game" if you're given the solution is it? It does take the game away. There's no getting on with the game if you can't complete the small objectives. Absurd. That's like saying teachers should give students a passing grade even if they are incompetent.
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Posts: 83Member Arc User
    edited November 20
    Mmmh, your analogy doesn't sound accurate for me.
    I feel it's more like using a GPS telling you the way rather than relying on your own memory and orientation senses after someone gave you some general indications about how to go from your house to his house so you can come to his party.

    At the end, you are still driving to get to your destination and dancing at the party, though you would probably be late in the 2nd case because you get a bit lost :P.

    Personnally I hate quests that have as a goal only to find someone or something. Especially "I lost my thingy, can you help me and find it ? It's on the floor somewhere over there".
    Not me who lost, not me who search !

    What is a game differ from people to people. Resolving a bunch of differential equations can sometimes be sort of a game for me, is it for you ?
    Would you be entertained by a door locked with a password you can only find after decrypting 5 pages of a little book encrypted with a Viginère Cypher ? (edit : oh, and make the length of the cypher a variable depending on your username, and hour min sec you took the quest so you can't relly on someone who says the key is "friend" :P )

    Quests in NWO that ask you to find something or someone aren't usually designed well enough to be entertaining in my opinion (only my opinion ^^). So why would I have to put my sherlock holmes suit and play the not existant investigations ?
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,502Member Arc User

    However, it's not a "game" if you're given the solution is it? It does take the game away. There's no getting on with the game if you can't complete the small objectives. Absurd. That's like saying teachers should give students a passing grade even if they are incompetent.

    That's completely subjective. One man's fun quest is another man's annoying piece of trash content that he just wants to burn through as fast as possible.

    Comparing a game to a real life circumstance is one of the most ridiculous analogies people seem to always make. You know what the difference here is? It's NOT real life. It's a game.

    Could you imagine in real life being given the option of turning on "test cheats" versus leaving the option off. No? Because that's not how real life works.
  • roadkill#6177 roadkill Posts: 175Member Arc User
    edited November 20
    What I'm saying is it shows in later content how it seems so many have rushed/burned through content and are useless to their parties. They are lacking basic awareness. Content has been nerfed to accommodate the abundance of party failures as evidence.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 1,074Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    What I'm saying is it shows in later content how it seems so many have rushed/burned through content and are useless to their parties. They are lacking basic awareness. Content has been nerfed to accommodate the abundance of party failures as evidence.

    Took is unclear on what your "ask" or action item is from this post.

    You want we should all disable the quest path and minimap?
    You want Cryptic to remove them from the game?

    What exactly do you want?
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  • akemnosakemnos Posts: 577Member Arc User
    having things marked on the map is not the reason why people have "rushed/burned through content" Relative to post 70/80 content everything prior is relatively easy when compared. Not having something on the map is not going to change that and is not going to somehow magically make the bad players into good players. It is completely irrelevant to the issue.

    having things marked on the maps is a good thing that most MMO's have. think about some of the maps and some of the quests. for example in the tower district you have to find 12 little glowing stones that are in the orc encampments in the middle of the map. (sorry dont remember the quest exactly). Its bad enough finding those 12 things originally but consider if you didn't have the map indication and you spent an hour in the upper encampent section of the map looking for those, or back near the beginning of the map. Then think about having to do that all over again on the next 1-49 characters you make where you already have a decent grasp of the game.

  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 1,074Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    akemnos said:

    having things marked on the map is not the reason why people have "rushed/burned through content" Relative to post 70/80 content everything prior is relatively easy when compared. Not having something on the map is not going to change that and is not going to somehow magically make the bad players into good players. It is completely irrelevant to the issue.

    having things marked on the maps is a good thing that most MMO's have. think about some of the maps and some of the quests. for example in the tower district you have to find 12 little glowing stones that are in the orc encampments in the middle of the map. (sorry dont remember the quest exactly). Its bad enough finding those 12 things originally but consider if you didn't have the map indication and you spent an hour in the upper encampent section of the map looking for those, or back near the beginning of the map. Then think about having to do that all over again on the next 1-49 characters you make where you already have a decent grasp of the game.

    Agreed. And if Took my add..
    Unless you are playing a puzzle or mystery game (eg. Mist) there is zero reason to deny a map and path.
    Is the fun of NW figuring out where the chult hunt is located?
    Of course not.
    This is an ACTION mmorpg. The fun is in fighting. Not in finding HAMSTER.
    Hiding the Map and path is a needless annoyance in an action mmo.

    If anything encourages lazy play it is power creep. NOT zone maps and autopathing.
    Let it go, OP.

    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,484Member Arc User
    If we are talking about improved quality of RP within the plot and story of the game, I'm far more interested in actions and consequences rather than harder Fetch Quests.

    How often do we see a conversation tree with three answers for the player to choose but none of them make a blind bit of difference to the ultimate state of the quests.

    Back when I used to work on NWN2 mods we set various flags on the Player that went up or down dependent on the way they interacted with NPCs, and after a certain number was reached NPCs might start reacting differently, and even open (or close) side quests depending on how much of HAMSTER they had been or how nice they had been. Charisma was used as a modifier, and some NPCs reacted better to bluntness and saw politeness as weakness, and others needed gentle persuasion etc...

    That's one of the few areas where a multiplayer RPG can actually work on the RP aspect. You don't have to go on mic talking like a 16th century town crier with a head injury. (Anyone begins a conversation with "Forsooth" and I'm muting their HAMSTER...)

    I'm trying to remember any occasion in NWO where my attitude to an NPC has had any major impact on how they speak to me when approached again and drawing a blank...
  • roadkill#6177 roadkill Posts: 175Member Arc User
    I just want insight from the devs on this question but I don't know where to post to get answers from them specifically.

    I'm happy to have been reminded of the UI option to turn off the mini map so that I can play how I want without being a nuisance to others. I would like the UI to have more options to Hide/Show objects.

    However, if it was my choice I wouldn't give players a GPS. Or at least edit the story/questlines to consider when objectives should or should not be marked or have a trail to follow. Of course the other option is to not include several quests at all. I would also like first person perspective and increase the default setting for critter threat detection range or at least include a system setting toggle for variable levels of enemy detection range.

    I much prefer discovering. I felt reward from discovering the Chultan Hunts, and locating treasures from maps in SoMI.

    Considering Mod16's riff (Ryf) on Sif, I'll include Dark Souls as an example of an action-combat multiplayer game with no map for players.

    Considering Mod 14's design and artwork, I'll also include Dragon's Dogma as an action-combat game that included a player map mechanism that required players to discover an area before the map became filled in with details.

    The little I have seen of D&D, players only get information about their environment from the dungeon master "if" they ask questions and sometimes have to roll for that information, yet Neverwinter's map mechanism including the quest path has every detail viewable from the beginning covered with only a slightly dimmed layer over areas a player has not yet set foot on. I just don't get it and I believe giving players "quest path", which I think is by default turned on, to be always lead where to go contributes to conditioning lazy players and it's not all a scaling and power creep issue.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,484Member Arc User
    I have to say searching for the items in SOMI and Chult from the picture clues was the worst part of both those mods for me. I liked the Ravenloft hunts with the riddle and the multiple options and a timer. Much more fun than roaming round mindlessly hoping to drop on the right spot and see it from the right angle, (or as most people did, download the maps with all the locations marked on. And my God the people who took the time to find all that stuff the first time enough to make those maps have my sympathy...)

    I've been DM'ing D&D for close to 40 years, and there's nothing more boring than having players wandering the countryside trying to find the way in to the dungeon. Tomb Of Horrors had that as an option... I've never really had that happen and a good DM "nudges" the players without waiting for them to ask the right question, and in almost every case where you want the players to get where they are going, you have an NPC draw them a map. A map with directions to where they need to be going.
    If they don't ask for a map but decide to wander off and hope to find whatever it is on their own, have the NPC OFFER a map, only then if they turn it down do you leave it to their own devices because they would have chosen, as you seem to want to, get there in their own good time.

    I don;t know about anyone else, but I never even give players a simple go out into the woods and find 6 "Blue Flowers" in very specific locations without telling them where to look. Fetch Quests are boring in a computer game, and in a table-top game with limited time they are like nails down a blackboard in terms of how annoying they are.

    Many years ago a friend of mine tried running his first campaign, and made a big map with a bunch of encounters in specific hexagons... we wandered round for hours without finding anything and by the end of the first session had found next to nothing apart from the occasional group of wandering monsters. He said to me afterwards, "You wouldn't believe how close you came to so many proper encounters... just one hex away."

    I explained to him about how the job of the DM is not to run the adventure per the letter of the module, but to fudge it wherever necessary to ensure the most fun and enjoyment is had by as many people as possible. And that a good DM only roles dice for the noise they make... the next session was much more interesting.
  • akemnosakemnos Posts: 577Member Arc User
    Insight from the devs is very unlikely to happen. The amount of posting they do is almost negligible. Even on threads they post looking for feedback in can take them weeks to respond if at all. One of the worst things about this game is how unresponsive the company is on their own forums.
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,502Member Arc User

    I just want insight from the devs on this question but I don't know where to post to get answers from them specifically.

    You are posting in the right area to gain dev insights. Just don't hold your breath. The response rate is lower than the drop rate on a legendary mount.
  • roadkill#6177 roadkill Posts: 175Member Arc User
    Okay, thanks.
  • molchar#7365 molchar Posts: 22Member Arc User
    I have no problem with this. If I wanted to slove mysteries, I'd have bought "Clue" from Parker Brothers.
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