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Scaling and difficulty in level 70 dungeons
hypervoreian
Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
Hi to all.
I leveled my self to 80,and I did some dungeon runs during the week.One ECC ,one KR and one VT.
For 90% of the cases ,they are not doable.
The problem is,that scaling cuts half your stats,while it only cuts 6k stats from the enemies.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1246309/official-m16-stats-and-mechanics
"Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings."
Problem 1:
So a level 70 typical mob will have 57k defense while 7k arp.
This means that new and veteran players cannot put a dent to mobs ,in time,before mobs overwhelm them.
TTK,time to kill ratio in too big,tanks /healers get too much damage and the party is down.
Problem 2:
tanks that overcap defense in level 80,(60k+) are fragile in level 70 content cause their defense is cut in half.
As a Fighter tank,My defense goes from 67k in level 80 (overkill and wasted 7k stat) ,to just 32-35k in level 70 content.That means that I have effective DR at around 25-30% .
You cannot survive the current damage with 25% DR.
ECC boss hits the "Flung" combo,3 fast attack and a fourth one with 45k ,plus 60k.Aoe bomb is at 300k.In real gameplay that are essentialy one shots.
Cause you can block for around 2-3 secs before you run out of stamina.i dont know how it works for fellow paladins,for Fighters is next to impossible with a random riq group.
Coordinated parties with 2-3 healers and veteran dps ,can do it,not because it is easy,but because they shorten TTK time,so boss does not eat the tank.
In CR normal ads hit 45k att wills.First group has 5 of them,tank can survive with a mediocre healer very few time before it goes down and then adds wipe the party.
Problem 3:
Itemization of Mod16 is bad,I mean the stats,they do not give you gear that helps in the level 70 scaling.
A tank to survive in level 70 with current stat curve needs essentially 120k defense at level 80.this is impossible now for 99,9999% of tank population.
I suspect that DPS will have same problem too ,to RI the defense of the adds,so they would need 120k arm pen in level 80.
Impossible.
And I take as granted that we talk about m,ax players here.
But these dungeons are not advertized nor are exclusive for 18k+ players.The IL required is 11k.5 11k players cannot kill one add in 5 mins.
Problem 4:
I would be less pessimist,if that was a bug,like at mod6 launch 3 year ago.At that time we had similar problems,but there was a bug,ads had 100% RI,and the excessive damage was not intended.
In mod16 we do not have a bug,but a well thought and tested (?) mechanism and stat curve by the devs and the "3l33t" players for three nonths.
And in three months they did not figured out the problem.Mod16 add damage is WAI and not a bug.
Problem 5 :
The removal of tested and proven mechanics in favor of a new philosophy ,was not well thought.
The 50% crit cap,the 50% defense cap,and most imporrtant the removal of the majority of aoe encounters/att wills ,means DPS cannot kill adds in time.
As for tanks they were designed to hold threat in od 16 with out hard taunts as in the apst,but by doing damage .At the same time they had few pitifull encounters with aoe ,and get an inherit damage penalty as class.
So tanks must gain threat by doing mostly single attack damage,at a 4-5 population mob,with pitifull damage encounters.Add to that an inherit 10% damage penalty to the tank classes,cause "we need to differentiate tanks and DPS" .No matter tanks need to invest 150-200k stats in defensive stats let's give them and a penalty aswell.What to say?
So new philosophy is not supported and backed up by classes design.
if you want threat by damage ,give damge to tanks,or a lot of aoes.
If you want tanks to be fragile,and to stay alive only by healers,give DPS aoes to clean the adds fast.
If you give defense cap to tanks,(50%) at least make the adds not to hit with 50k att wills.
Problem 6:
Removal of LS hurt survivability of all toons.Maybe it needed to go,maybe it needed a nerf.But you cannot mega nerf players defenses ( 50% defense cap,LS removal) and at the same time leave adds unchecked.
Problem 7:
While the current situation,any sane person would get its whereabouts in 3-4 mins playing,it eluded the elite beta testers and the devs for three months.
That means that the people that influence the devs and are vocal in forums,are totally and absolutly clueless.So the devs do not get good feedback.
------------------
Synopsis:
Current situation as defined,the status of gameplay ,the joy of it,and the game balance ,is not good.
Is not good for 18k ,5 year playing NW veterans,and I suspect it is simply unbearable for new and low IL players.
Situation will get worse,problem is not evident yet,cause most players level at 80 atm,or doing master expenditions.
Very few play dungeons,and the ones that play and fail them are new players and do not come into the forums.
The vets that fail,think that they fail cause they lack new gear.Nope it is not the gear,it the scaling mechanism and the whole philosophy and design of mod16.
So you dont get the full wave of discomfort yet.in 2-3 weeks people will start leaving the game.
Can it saved?
Very difficult.devs would have to swallow their pride and rework the scaling mechanism,which they defend it with passion.So slim chances there.
As I said above,we do not have this situation as a result of bugs or not WAI mechanisms.What we see now and more will see in the coming weeks it is the result of a three month tessting ,and a result of a well thought rework that took a lot of time and resources.
That were the things I wanted to say.
Good game to all.
I leveled my self to 80,and I did some dungeon runs during the week.One ECC ,one KR and one VT.
For 90% of the cases ,they are not doable.
The problem is,that scaling cuts half your stats,while it only cuts 6k stats from the enemies.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1246309/official-m16-stats-and-mechanics
"Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings."
Problem 1:
So a level 70 typical mob will have 57k defense while 7k arp.
This means that new and veteran players cannot put a dent to mobs ,in time,before mobs overwhelm them.
TTK,time to kill ratio in too big,tanks /healers get too much damage and the party is down.
Problem 2:
tanks that overcap defense in level 80,(60k+) are fragile in level 70 content cause their defense is cut in half.
As a Fighter tank,My defense goes from 67k in level 80 (overkill and wasted 7k stat) ,to just 32-35k in level 70 content.That means that I have effective DR at around 25-30% .
You cannot survive the current damage with 25% DR.
ECC boss hits the "Flung" combo,3 fast attack and a fourth one with 45k ,plus 60k.Aoe bomb is at 300k.In real gameplay that are essentialy one shots.
Cause you can block for around 2-3 secs before you run out of stamina.i dont know how it works for fellow paladins,for Fighters is next to impossible with a random riq group.
Coordinated parties with 2-3 healers and veteran dps ,can do it,not because it is easy,but because they shorten TTK time,so boss does not eat the tank.
In CR normal ads hit 45k att wills.First group has 5 of them,tank can survive with a mediocre healer very few time before it goes down and then adds wipe the party.
Problem 3:
Itemization of Mod16 is bad,I mean the stats,they do not give you gear that helps in the level 70 scaling.
A tank to survive in level 70 with current stat curve needs essentially 120k defense at level 80.this is impossible now for 99,9999% of tank population.
I suspect that DPS will have same problem too ,to RI the defense of the adds,so they would need 120k arm pen in level 80.
Impossible.
And I take as granted that we talk about m,ax players here.
But these dungeons are not advertized nor are exclusive for 18k+ players.The IL required is 11k.5 11k players cannot kill one add in 5 mins.
Problem 4:
I would be less pessimist,if that was a bug,like at mod6 launch 3 year ago.At that time we had similar problems,but there was a bug,ads had 100% RI,and the excessive damage was not intended.
In mod16 we do not have a bug,but a well thought and tested (?) mechanism and stat curve by the devs and the "3l33t" players for three nonths.
And in three months they did not figured out the problem.Mod16 add damage is WAI and not a bug.
Problem 5 :
The removal of tested and proven mechanics in favor of a new philosophy ,was not well thought.
The 50% crit cap,the 50% defense cap,and most imporrtant the removal of the majority of aoe encounters/att wills ,means DPS cannot kill adds in time.
As for tanks they were designed to hold threat in od 16 with out hard taunts as in the apst,but by doing damage .At the same time they had few pitifull encounters with aoe ,and get an inherit damage penalty as class.
So tanks must gain threat by doing mostly single attack damage,at a 4-5 population mob,with pitifull damage encounters.Add to that an inherit 10% damage penalty to the tank classes,cause "we need to differentiate tanks and DPS" .No matter tanks need to invest 150-200k stats in defensive stats let's give them and a penalty aswell.What to say?
So new philosophy is not supported and backed up by classes design.
if you want threat by damage ,give damge to tanks,or a lot of aoes.
If you want tanks to be fragile,and to stay alive only by healers,give DPS aoes to clean the adds fast.
If you give defense cap to tanks,(50%) at least make the adds not to hit with 50k att wills.
Problem 6:
Removal of LS hurt survivability of all toons.Maybe it needed to go,maybe it needed a nerf.But you cannot mega nerf players defenses ( 50% defense cap,LS removal) and at the same time leave adds unchecked.
Problem 7:
While the current situation,any sane person would get its whereabouts in 3-4 mins playing,it eluded the elite beta testers and the devs for three months.
That means that the people that influence the devs and are vocal in forums,are totally and absolutly clueless.So the devs do not get good feedback.
------------------
Synopsis:
Current situation as defined,the status of gameplay ,the joy of it,and the game balance ,is not good.
Is not good for 18k ,5 year playing NW veterans,and I suspect it is simply unbearable for new and low IL players.
Situation will get worse,problem is not evident yet,cause most players level at 80 atm,or doing master expenditions.
Very few play dungeons,and the ones that play and fail them are new players and do not come into the forums.
The vets that fail,think that they fail cause they lack new gear.Nope it is not the gear,it the scaling mechanism and the whole philosophy and design of mod16.
So you dont get the full wave of discomfort yet.in 2-3 weeks people will start leaving the game.
Can it saved?
Very difficult.devs would have to swallow their pride and rework the scaling mechanism,which they defend it with passion.So slim chances there.
As I said above,we do not have this situation as a result of bugs or not WAI mechanisms.What we see now and more will see in the coming weeks it is the result of a three month tessting ,and a result of a well thought rework that took a lot of time and resources.
That were the things I wanted to say.
Good game to all.
3
Comments
Perhaps if you had looked at the preview threads before the mod dropped live, you might have noticed some of this earlier.
generalizations are always wrong ,and I generalized in my post.
I should said that a great part of the people that give feedback are clueless.There are good players that givefeedback ,and are players that for a variety of reasons ,
( clueless cause they were carried by overgear,selfish-buff my class nerf the others,elites-game is too easy for me on preview nerf us please)
give wrong feedback.
There is no reason to stay and no hope on my side, it will take 4 years to correct this mess I am done, cheers @hypervoreian
Situation is as you said and described it.
Scaling in level 70 content is completely unnecesarry in level 70 content.I will type it again for people to see it,level 70 mobs lose 10% of a level 80 ratings mob,while players lose 50%.Plus hardcaps ,lack of aoes and LS.And with the new stat system -stat and counterstat- players dont do enough damage and tanks dont have enough defense.
how that passed uncheck,still puzzles me.I know I repeat myself but i always do that when i see the obvious goes unchecked.Anyway.
I 'll try to log once per week to check any changes but for now things look grim.
Cheers Quallo and happy gaming in NW or elsewhere o/
It is also not only dungeons. Try to start the 'Underdark' quest if you are above level 70... you get scaled back to 70, stats reduced etc... but the foes all stay at whatever level you are. Try fighting level 77 foes when you are level 70.
Again, all this reported numerous times - Cryptic simply can't address all the bugs even with months of reports. They changed way too much with too many effects all over the game, and they will be months fixing even the most glaring ones.
Various white knights will report they are working on it hard, they haven't reduced the team to shift devs over to M:tG, it's not really a problem, just play the new campaign and do nothing else etc... but the fact is that game-breaking issues have been reported for months, and are still not fixed.
Unacceptable sloppy development work, IMO.
Original Serenity Mostly Retired DC
Tokarek Bearded Dwarven OP Tankadin
JuiceHead Goofy Human GWF
Member of H3llzWarriors and Limitless.
Teammates in there rant against each other, since they can´t understand that the endboss is unplayable.
Tank dies in a row, healer can´t figure out how to heal all that incoming damage and striker scratches their heads, why those mobs don´t die, even though they put all stats into arp, crit and accuracy they could find