Why is TR dealing piercing with EVERYTING

leonidrex

preety much title.
i dont mean oppresive darkness.
i mean all dailies encounters and atwills like cloud of steal, gloaming, bloodbath, impact shot, shadow strike.
how does that work exactly ?

kalina311

piercing damage is the last pvp frontier that should get nerfed ..if classes were not lazyfixed and balanced properly .......tread carefully ....or a flame war will erupt in this thread from tr / hrs : Ds

jonkoca

Not from HRs actually, we have very low piercing damage. One feat in the archer tree, long shot. I've only taken it this mod because stillness got nerfed. From act it accounts for between 5-10% of my damage during a pvp match, depending on how long the match is, and how tanky the opposition were.

But I agree with the op - TRs are magically murdering ppl in pvp again, I played a lot of matches yesterday, and there are some TRs who shred you just with at wills, some who kill you while you walk..... reallly.... slowly.... away. I acually preferred last mod's 'un-nerfed' TRs. This mod's are worse. One of them clocked up 40 kills in a match lol.

baoshione

superstevenshu said:

To fight against TR/archery u need to stack hp+deflect, since most of their damage is piercing. For your question, yes TR deal piecing damage all the time. The reason is they have passive/stealth that grants combat advantage, and most of them use oppressive darkness, which says whenever u deal combat advantage it will also deal piercing damage. I think the reason devs don’t wanna get rid of this is because without piercing most players can stack extreme defense/deflect and make them unkillable. So they try to compromise it by introducing piercing damage

Then they should add piercing dmg to every classes... why TR always has to be special? it should be for everyone or for no one.
If we have to say more TR is a class that shouldn't have piercing being they spam HAMSTER out of stun/daze etc.. HR's piercing compared to TR's it's a joke. And if we want to be politically correct, to equal HR's pircing to TR's they should add piercing dmg feat also on Trapper path (and pls don't)

demonmonger

Pffft... tr is not special

leonidrex

I think you peeps misunderstood me, i didnt mean oppresive darkness itself dealing piercing but rather powers themself.
recently i got hit by tr and teneb enchant dealt 1k ( 17k ) meaning around 8% effectiveness while cloud of steal AND oppresor deals 15k ( 25k ) meaning it ignored all my def, and yes tr had 0 armorpen. I read throught all TR feats and powers and could not for the life of me find anything that could make that happen.

leonidrex

demonmonger said:

Pffft... tr is not special

85% deflect severity, damage that ignores defence and deflection, immunities to CC, immunities to damage, CC that ignores cc resist, CC that ignores CC immunities. Not special at all ;p

leonidrex

is there a way to make specific people unable to post on my discusions ? When i have a notification that someone posted in this threath, thinking its the answear to my question or something constructive in general, only to be dissapointing by seeing demonmonger again.

vordayn

leonidrex said:

I think you peeps misunderstood me, i didnt mean oppresive darkness itself dealing piercing but rather powers themself.
recently i got hit by tr and teneb enchant dealt 1k ( 17k ) meaning around 8% effectiveness while cloud of steal AND oppresor deals 15k ( 25k ) meaning it ignored all my def, and yes tr had 0 armorpen. I read throught all TR feats and powers and could not for the life of me find anything that could make that happen.

Were you proned by any chance when that happened?

leonidrex

vordayn said:

leonidrex said:

I think you peeps misunderstood me, i didnt mean oppresive darkness itself dealing piercing but rather powers themself.
recently i got hit by tr and teneb enchant dealt 1k ( 17k ) meaning around 8% effectiveness while cloud of steal AND oppresor deals 15k ( 25k ) meaning it ignored all my def, and yes tr had 0 armorpen. I read throught all TR feats and powers and could not for the life of me find anything that could make that happen.

Were you proned by any chance when that happened?

nope, i was crabwalking with my shield like usual

schietindebux

How is Opressive Darkness calculated and buffed ? ... no clue tbh.
The most presumably answer is, they broke something. That´s what happens in this game all time, like SWW
My Gf is a killing machine, everything hits for double....

leonidrex

schietindebux said:

How is Opressive Darkness calculated and buffed ? ... no clue tbh.
The most presumably answer is, they broke something. That´s what happens in this game all time, like SWW
My Gf is a killing machine, everything hits for double....

Oppresive is like weapon enchantment, separate hit for 31,2% weapon dmg as piercing. ( this is pre buff so right now it deals more ) so 31,2% x weapon dmg x all buffs x power x 0,6 ( pvp reduction ) x debuffs on target x crit + ca = dmg

demonmonger

Its not that tr's are doing piercing damage with everything, but that armor pen is not working properly. Everyone overall is doing more damage it seems. 65% effectiveness or higher with encounter powers.

leonidrex

demonmonger said:

Its not that tr's are doing piercing damage with everything, but that armor pen is not working properly. Everyone overall is doing more damage it seems. 65% effectiveness or higher with encounter powers.

no, no, no, and no. to have 65% effectiveness, my pally uses UNP dread to reduce deff by 45%, 15k armorpen and 80% debuff from powers. TR uses NO debuffs, uses feytouch instead of dread and has 0 armor pen.

demonmonger

Maybe it's the new feat that executioners got from sabo tree?

leonidrex

didnt find anything that could couse that other then maybe if gutterbors touch armor pen bonus was stacking ? but i did found riposte, whenever TR deflects you reposte and deal 200% weapon dmg to the attacker. i hope this HAMSTER has internal cooldown, lol.

trgluestickz

leonidrex said:

didnt find anything that could couse that other then maybe if gutterbors touch armor pen bonus was stacking ? but i did found riposte, whenever TR deflects you reposte and deal 200% weapon dmg to the attacker. i hope this HAMSTER has internal cooldown, lol.

This feat does have a cooldown and its damage is fairly minor. This feat can only trigger against the same target once a second.

leonidrex

trgluestickz said:

leonidrex said:

didnt find anything that could couse that other then maybe if gutterbors touch armor pen bonus was stacking ? but i did found riposte, whenever TR deflects you reposte and deal 200% weapon dmg to the attacker. i hope this HAMSTER has internal cooldown, lol.

This feat does have a cooldown and its damage is fairly minor. This feat can only trigger against the same target once a second.

preety sure OP daily deals 245% weapon dmg, if you call that minor. but at least it has internal cooldown

trgluestickz

A good chunk of TR's damage is piercing damage, this was true last module as well but we did get a few buffs to it this module. I don't think piercing damage should have been introduced to Neverwinter since it has a long history of causing issues in PVP, does not benefit PVE players at all, and we already have armor pen stat to represent piercing through armor.

That said, I don't think piercing damage is a priority #1 issue this module since everyone and their mother is dealing a ton of damage this module anyway and TR isn't even the top of the list. Definitely keep reporting any new bugs you dig up though.

Here is where TR piercing damage comes from:
Much of it comes from the oppressive darkness passive, which causes all of our attacks to deal some extra piercing damage to the target if we have combat advantage. If you are sabotuer, you also have shadowy opportunity, which makes it so your attacks deal 50% of your weapon damage as piercing damage for 5 seconds after leaving stealth. Our shocking execution daily is piercing damage but this is more widely known and doesn't appear to be what you are asking about.

One thing that may be bugged/overpreforming is hateful knives daily, the damage I've been seeing people do with this power lately has been massive and it also knocks you prone. I don't know what changed since normally this daily is underwelming, I'm guessing there is a buggy interaction with TR piercing damage sources and this daily but I am not sure.

trgluestickz

leonidrex said:

trgluestickz said:

leonidrex said:

didnt find anything that could couse that other then maybe if gutterbors touch armor pen bonus was stacking ? but i did found riposte, whenever TR deflects you reposte and deal 200% weapon dmg to the attacker. i hope this HAMSTER has internal cooldown, lol.

This feat does have a cooldown and its damage is fairly minor. This feat can only trigger against the same target once a second.

preety sure OP daily deals 245% weapon dmg, if you call that minor. but at least it has internal cooldown

Test it, mocking gesture doesn't do a ton of damage, it is mildly helpful if you pair it with lots of other reflect damage boons and gear. I mostly took that feat for the deflect it grants.

leonidrex

i have looked into the logs some more, and noticed that its not piercing, but rather there are short ammounts of times where tr ignores my armour, i can still deflect tho

leonidrex

well, in every other game i play. if this was to happen there would be wichhunt for whats wrong. I can read throught logs, see the number. draw conclusions all I want but in the end, i dont play TR so i will never be sure. It saddens me that its accepted by everyone that TR ignores armour, and thats it. Community itself doesnt want things to be fixed, they are content with using broken things, and moving to the others when it gets fixed. And I think its time i should give up too, have fun with piercing TR, everyone. they are not going away, not this mod, not the next. and not the one after that. Who knows maybe the class you play gets some broken powers.

tremeliques

I'm kinda late to this discussion but i just wanted to comment something, you said that you were with your shield up, if that was the case piercing wouldn't have passed the extra DR barrier from it, in other words if you had the shield up and you got hit by someone with piercing damage it would still hit for 1/5 of the original damage ( deflect not account for) not "15k ( 25k )" this unless the person was ahead of you, but i suppose you would have specified if that was the case.
Also what about the TR, I'm kinda of curious on this one, how does a tr do damage that ignores defense and deflection? half the classes can have immunities to CC so i don't see the argument here, all classes can have immunities to damage aswell, also I don't know about this one, i do know that Dazing Strike CC that ignores CC immunities can not stun but stop a charging power in PvE no clue about PvP but shouldn't be a problem, if you can teach me something new I would be happy to learn.

leonidrex

tremeliques#2035 said:

I'm kinda late to this discussion but i just wanted to comment something, you said that you were with your shield up, if that was the case piercing wouldn't have passed the extra DR barrier from it, in other words if you had the shield up and you got hit by someone with piercing damage it would still hit for 1/5 of the original damage ( deflect not account for) not "15k ( 25k )" this unless the person was ahead of you, but i suppose you would have specified if that was the case.
Also what about the TR, I'm kinda of curious on this one, how does a tr do damage that ignores defense and deflection? half the classes can have immunities to CC so i don't see the argument here, all classes can have immunities to damage aswell, also I don't know about this one, i do know that Dazing Strike CC that ignores CC immunities can not stun but stop a charging power in PvE no clue about PvP but shouldn't be a problem, if you can teach me something new I would be happy to learn.

i dont have real proof but from what i read throught my logs, i noticed a pattern. when TR has combat advantage, their hits ignore defence. i dont know if its bugged interaction with shadow of demise, or some other feats. as for the shield thing. I play paladin so that gives me damage resistance. For the logs i ignore any TR that has 5k or more armor penetration, ignore times when i get tagged with dread ( nobody uses it ) and times i get hit by CB ( its often ).
I have 65% dmg resistance standing still and ocasional buffs from : shield 30-80%, negation 40% and shep devo, around 8%.

leonidrex

this is good example, without CA TR dealt 1/3 of the effectiveness, i was able to deflect couple hits "dodge" but when i didnt it dealt 60% dmg, this is maximum effectiveness. only way you can get more is if the target is debuffed.

vordayn

leonidrex said:

this is good example, without CA TR dealt 1/3 of the effectiveness, i was able to deflect couple hits "dodge" but when i didnt it dealt 60% dmg, this is maximum effectiveness. only way you can get more is if the target is debuffed.

Were they Saboteur by any chance? There are two feats in this tree which might partially explain what is happening.

Exposed Weakness [Tier 3]: "While in Stealth, you ignore an additional 5/10/15/20/25% of your target's armor."

Gutterborn's Touch [Tier 4]: "Dealing damage from behind your target, or dealing Combat Advantage damage, grants you the Gutterborn effect for 6 seconds. Gutterborn: Your Armor Penetration and Damage are increased by 2/4/6/8/10%."

You said your DR is 65%, U. Negation and Shield 30-80% (why does this fluctuate?). So say you had the minimum values = 65 + 16 (4 prior hits to proc Negation stacks) + 30 = 111% DR. What was the Armor Penetration of the TR? If you said it was around 5k, then this will negate about 20% DR in PvP (60% less effective, hence 5000*0.4=2000 effective Armor Penetration or 20% Defenses Ignored).

Now with Gutterborn, sometimes the wording of this is strange: "10% Increased Armor Penetration" can sometimes mean the base stat, the buffed stat, or the % defenses ignored. You'll have to check with what happens in the character sheet. So this could mean either 22%-30% defenses ignored if the TR has 5k Armor Penetration.

So your effective DR is about 111-(20 or 30%)-25% (Exposed Weakness) = 56-66%. This means his effectiveness should be around 34-44%. If his Armor Pen was any higher than 5k (or if you had any extra debuff on you) this would be cutting into your DR even more.

The other possibility, of course, is that an additional damage source occurs AFTER damage mitigation has taken place, and it contributes to the Gloaming Cut damage.

leonidrex

i mean shield 30-80%, becouse it depends on the spec, there were times where i had 40% from negation, 80% from shield, 65% from stats, 25% from CoP and same thing happens. as for negation it preety much is up 100% of the time. only first 1-2s of combat its not up, then its constant with all the reflecting, dots and every attack triggering it several times.
P.S this TR had 1,1k armorpenetration, i simply ignore those that have 5k or more assuming that it might be armpen that shreads it.
this is something i noticed almost all TR do, no matter what armorpen they hit with 60% effectiveness, if the numbers were fluctuating i wouldnt even notice that something is wrong.
i might play some prot pally and run logs with 300% damageres and we will see how it goes then.

vordayn

leonidrex said:

i mean shield 30-80%, becouse it depends on the spec, there were times where i had 40% from negation, 80% from shield, 65% from stats, 25% from CoP and same thing happens. as for negation it preety much is up 100% of the time. only first 1-2s of combat its not up, then its constant with all the reflecting, dots and every attack triggering it several times.
P.S this TR had 1,1k armorpenetration, i simply ignore those that have 5k or more assuming that it might be armpen that shreads it.
this is something i noticed almost all TR do, no matter what armorpen they hit with 60% effectiveness, if the numbers were fluctuating i wouldnt even notice that something is wrong.
i might play some prot pally and run logs with 300% damageres and we will see how it goes then.

I think you are right about something happening which they do. Personally, I think TRs have been balanced quite a fair bit recently, but there is something strange happening, I agree.

I'm doing a bit of preliminary testing on the Saboteur tree and Gloaming Cut, I'm not sure if it is this tree which is causing the discrepancy in damage, or if it is Gloaming Cut.

I'll get back to you with some results.

leonidrex

vordayn said:

leonidrex said:

i mean shield 30-80%, becouse it depends on the spec, there were times where i had 40% from negation, 80% from shield, 65% from stats, 25% from CoP and same thing happens. as for negation it preety much is up 100% of the time. only first 1-2s of combat its not up, then its constant with all the reflecting, dots and every attack triggering it several times.
P.S this TR had 1,1k armorpenetration, i simply ignore those that have 5k or more assuming that it might be armpen that shreads it.
this is something i noticed almost all TR do, no matter what armorpen they hit with 60% effectiveness, if the numbers were fluctuating i wouldnt even notice that something is wrong.
i might play some prot pally and run logs with 300% damageres and we will see how it goes then.

I think you are right about something happening which they do. Personally, I think TRs have been balanced quite a fair bit recently, but there is something strange happening, I agree.

I'm doing a bit of preliminary testing on the Saboteur tree and Gloaming Cut, I'm not sure if it is this tree which is causing the discrepancy in damage, or if it is Gloaming Cut.

I'll get back to you with some results.

its not the glaming cut, its the same with cloud of steel, dazing strike and impact shots.