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ELITE Players are the problem in neverwinter

tigercatgirltigercatgirl Posts: 187Member Arc User
It has finally become obvious to me that the elite players, the high 5% with maxed out equipment and rank 14 everything with mythic artifacts are the problem in Neverwinter.

1) DUNGEONS:
The elites wanted tougher and tougher dungeons. When Chult mod was released most of the 90% player base could not do the dungeon. The listed item level and the one people were asking for was like 2000 points higher. When Ravenloft came out, it was made even more clear. You need resurrection scrolls to survive, its a kobyashi maru dungeon where 99% of people will fail. A pure player killer dungeon for the 90% of the mmo players. No one likes to play things that aren't fun or are incredably hard, and no one can remember each and every hard dungeon over time.
So proof elites have wrecked dungeons from the chult mod.

2) PROFESSIONS:
Here the elite crafters of masterwork have wrecked professions. This is because the profession system is suppose to be a hard reset for everyone....but it isn't. Masterwork was not changed in fact it is what made the professions system the terrible thing that it is. Because only a few 1-3% of players probably had any master work levels they choose not make any major changes to the task in them. This then limits all players.
Example for masterwork 1 recipes you need to do 3 tasks. Your reward is a well worn item that is 370/370. It falls between the regular adamantine and is lower than the +1 version you could build anyway. Then you have 3 task to get lvl 2 recipes, and so on and so on. The prize is nothing more than a booby prize from an old carnival game.
So because of these elite crafters every normal player has a screwed up profession system and huge gold sink, which will become an even bigger gold sink in masterwork so much so that you'll give up. So only the elite will survive and you must buy off them. They will become the walmart's. macy's, etc. of the auction crafting system.

GENERAL GAME ENVIRONMENT:
This whole favor the elites and what they want hurts the entire game environment. It makes the 90% have to depend upon an elite player being in a zone or dungeon to help them. The elites get mad because they do not want to be pulling and supporting everyone...so they leave a group or kick the low person out.
This then creates a class warfare system within the game. It is becoming more obvious in zone chats, and alliance chats.

I mean it was the elite players asking for an ad cap increase in the auction so they could sell their stuff at much higher prices because more and more people could get AD easier. So cryptic got rid of salvage to make it harder. Oh yes now you are forced to run dungeons, dungeons others may not know how to do correctly, because remember some were designed for the elite.

In the MMO world many companies hire elite players to work for them. So think if the company hires elite players who are the elite players going to design content for? Not the normal player...no they are elite so they will design for elite players. A game is meant to be an escape, not a copy of the real world and the problems it faces.
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Comments

  • guufy#5261 guufy Posts: 14Member Arc User
    Seems your guild is not so helpful. There are truly elitsit players here whos skill level is not so great but they managed to get to the late endgame and there are players who are really good but are like 15-16k ilvl still owning those 18k+ players. Thing is play good get friends play with those you know friend list,guild and alliance. Those people you can play all the time and get better together and belive me they wont leave or kick anyone. I am maxed out 18.4k DC and i give everyone the chance to run things exept Cr because 14k people think its so easy and wont even research the dungeon mechanics. That makes other people in party carry that person or they will fail all together and use tons of scrolls. Truth is the cryptic ilvl for certain dungeons are too low and when playing lower content those are too easy. When you move up to Tong or Cradle then those places have mechanics that can oneshot you so you need to know dungeon and your class really well. Problem is not elitist but people unwilling to learn the harder dungeons because all before were just run thro dungeons. There are exeptions also. I ask when i see new player bonus in dungeon whos new and does he know what to do. Most wont even answer and fail. I ask that because i wanna explain the mechanics and movements so they could learn but most dont even care so iv stoped it until they ask me.
  • clericalistclericalist Posts: 572Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    While I somewhat agree, ultimately its the developers only catering for the elite players that is the problem (and as others have said not all elite players are selfish players). As for the "get good" argument that does not apply for all the new content, no matter how much you understand the boss mechanics and what works best for parties, the bosses have been designed with absolutely built in time limits that cannot be bypassed with skill, it requires raw brute force or taking advantage of exploits and other cheesy tactics.
  • I feel like 90% of the content should be easily attainable and reasonably difficult. Keep 10% of it hardcore, why else aspire to BIS and grind if everything is a cake walk. Just my 2 cents as a new player who is casual.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 1,183Member Arc User
    I think enjoyable is more of a relevant word here.

    I run dungeons I enjoy or content I enjoy rather than content I hate - example being FBI and upward - and content I feel I can finish in a reasonable time and reasonable difficulty.

    Best examples are the end bosses in Malabog's Castle [relatively easy but can be a challenge] and Valindra's Tower [more difficult but doable] - both of those end bosses are a challenge but fun.

    I don't find the mountain climb in FBI fun at all - sorry.
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Posts: 1,996Member Arc User

    People at 11-12-13k IL have no business in Tong etc.

    That 12K direct queued for ToNG allowing players in REQ to get it. People should consider this before kicking the lowbie. A single carry is pretty easy now in ToNG. If it can't be done, I just abandon it.

  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Posts: 525Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I am waiting for this flame thread to be closed. It solves nothing, pits half the community against another part, and offers no solution at the base problem within the game: random queue system's 3 tier dungeon system, assumption by devs that TIL is a good measuring stick for dungeon difficulty when the real stick is stacking buffs and knowing mechanics, and the non-linear progression offered by campaigns in relation to dungeon difficulty.
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends




  • pteriaspterias Posts: 661Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I chuckled when I read the title because I knew how everyone would respond. I actually expected worse.

    This is sizeable chunk of why I've gone from playing 3-4 hours per day to 2-3 hours per week. Add on the 4-support meta, the de facto requirement to be in a guild (to pad IL for the elitists, kinda the same issue), and the current self parody Mod, that about rounds it out.

    Anyway, I'll let you all get back to the regularly scheduled flaming while I go play something else.
  • jade1280jade1280 Posts: 160Member Arc User
    Those leet players are paying the bills and keeping the bathtubs full of cash money so no dice.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,445Member Arc User

    People at 11-12-13k IL have no business in Tong etc.

    That 12K direct queued for ToNG allowing players in REQ to get it. People should consider this before kicking the lowbie. A single carry is pretty easy now in ToNG. If it can't be done, I just abandon it.

    This is exactly how many players leveled up in the first place, before the XP gat buffed into ridiculousness. New players would get carried thru the leveling dungeons as soon as they unlocked a zone.
  • nunya#5309 nunya Posts: 933Member Arc User

    kreatyve said:


    Have you even played any of mod 15 at all? That module is aimed specifically at new players, nothing elite about it.

    Honestly Mod 15 is like a partial mod, mostly a reuse of content (ex: reuse the underdark and plop some beholders in there). Ravenloft was a full mod, Icewind Dale was a full mod. Heart of Fire? Not so much. I am running it mostly to get the stuff and boons but not really enjoying and really hating it.

    This is how I feel about it. What's worse is that I'm going to have to run it basically forever because I want those stupid keys from the campaign store.
  • kvetkvet Posts: 2,700Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Hm, I like AI campaign. I don't like grinding it - Cryptic really screwed up only providing a single (now hourly) repeatable mission to top off the haul. Yes... you can also run the skirmish, as long as you have 10K IL which isn't easy for new players or alts you're not investing heavily in (my toons are all in the 8-9K range except maybe 2 or 3 --- I have 22 toons). But, I really did enjoy the silly humor on the first run through. Yes, like all MMO content everywhere, it gets old once you have to grind the same thing over and over, and yes, the silliness of AI gets old on the second run through... but that's OK, it was fun the first time.

    As to the game being aimed at Elite players only... I disagree. There is end game content, which requires end game level characters to run, yes.. this is true. But it's also nothing unusual or even surprising. Every game gets harder as you progress, even solo games. If you make a new character in Skyrim and go right to the big bads, they'll kill you outright. Unless you cheat, and well.. there's that. Players in NW can be really unpleasant, and I've made no secret of my dislike for elitist attitudes, but there's a huge difference been an elite player and an elitist player. This thread indicates the game is ruined by elite players (those with high end characters) because there is no content available for players that are not yet at that level. I would vehemently disagree and point at every single campaign, every single dungeon, and every single skirmish (except MSVA, FBI, Tong, Cradle, and CR) as examples of content that nearly any player that qualifies to run it can do so with relative ease. In other words... MOST OF THE GAME is perfectly suited for low and mid-range characters.

    Yes... the best rewards come from those higher end runs I mentioned. *shrug* welcome to life. You have to work hard, and be challenged, and possible fail along the way a few times, before you can get the gold medal (as it were). Crying that you can't get your trophy too just because you show up is typical millennial trash.

    I'm not advocating that elite players should simply exclude lower level players as that isn't elite play, that's elitist play. I advocate the opposite actually - it's important that elite players help lower level players learn their way through the more advanced content, and help those players gear up so they're properly prepared. It's an indication of a truly elite player when they do that sort of thing. However, it's equally important for mid-range players to recognize their limitations and work to overcome them. If you are 10K IL, you cannot assume a party of strangers will understand that you've been playing for 4 years, have other solid toons, and know what you're doing - you have to prove yourself. The best advice is to play with people you know (a guild, friends, become a regular on any of the various public channels, whatever). They'll be more willing to help you, and will recognize your ability and be willing to overlook your lower IL.

    Now... having said all that, if you're just sad because the game, itself, is hard and you keep dying and really can't actually do anything.... well. The only explanation there is you're unwilling to put in the effort required to make the game not hard because that's all it takes, and frankly, that makes your entirely argument irrelevant from the start. Sounds like NW may not be the game for you. I suggest Skyrim, then enter this into the console: tgm.

  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Posts: 208Member Arc User
    Its good to have hard content! It challenges everyone. Creates player goals. makes things more interesting when done right.

    As for Master Crafting. I do agree with the OP about how on how those qualified pre-patch got a complete pass while at the same time the barrier to entry was made even more formidable by the "+1" exclusion. The crafting rework was and is pretty poorly executed.

    The new campaign seems to be a love or hate it thing. Personally I think Jim Darkmagic must die a horrible death!
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,292Member Arc User
    edited December 2018
    There are games where you can exclusivly absolve endcontent with "endgeared" chars and a big chunk of experience same as skill.
    NWO definitely is not one of these game, tbh the content in this game compared to others is absurdly easy if we talk about games where an enddungeon can only be absolved in an experienced group, every player high geared, knowing each other, all connected via chat and even doing so they fail 50 times in a row.
    Noone in this game get´s excludet from endcontent if he is willing to run it.
    You don´t have to run those dungeons 100 times to get that achievement/success, beside some bugged dungeons. Even being completely unaware of your class and content you get pulled through, no chat, no higher form of coordination needed.
    You can absolve every content with 14k chars if you know the class and some might interfere and tell me they did all that on a 13k IL toon with ease.

    Elite player (if elite= experienced or skilled) are the ones that carry a good portion of those ones, who don´t care about their char or their build and setup and deny to achieve a higher level of gameplay. Many deny to inform themselve in videos about their class or that dungeon, even if it took 5 min to watch, but insist to run expert and advanced queue up and down.
    If you fail to absolve a dungeon in this game, there is only one to blame. Not cryptic, not the class.. no it´s you not willing to inform yourself about the build and way to play your class.
    I myself carry dozens of players i never met before through content every week. They don´t ask, they don´t say a word, they just expect to be carried though, they even don´t say "thank you" after opening the chest in 80% of those runs.
    So who is the real problem ?
  • earlgreybeardearlgreybeard Posts: 321Member Arc User
    As pointed out , the end game meta-players will be a driving force in any mmo.. they really are the core of the player base.. I feel there are 2 types; meta players that enjoy a casual environment and like the challenges involved in helping lesser equipped players get through the harder dungeons and those that prefer an all elite environment where they don't have to bother with that..

    this could mirror some of the empathy vs elitism divide we see a lot of these days..
    and the endless circular arguments ^ (by misrepresentation)

    There are stacks of cool casual alliances and guilds often with many high end players involved, mostly about helping newer players learn the ropes.. my guild was formed with in mind in 2015 and many have passed through and gone on to joining one of the meta-guilds and alliances..

    personally for me D&D is about slowly tweaking all the classes as the game evolves.. I could of poured that into one char and stopped when it could not be improved any more but I probably wouldn't be still here playing nwo.
    B)
    2c
    Guild Leader Den of the Misfits
  • lantern22lantern22 Posts: 966Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I think enjoyable is more of a relevant word here.

    I run dungeons I enjoy or content I enjoy rather than content I hate - example being FBI and upward - and content I feel I can finish in a reasonable time and reasonable difficulty.

    Best examples are the end bosses in Malabog's Castle [relatively easy but can be a challenge] and Valindra's Tower [more difficult but doable] - both of those end bosses are a challenge but fun.

    I don't find the mountain climb in FBI fun at all - sorry.

    When VT first came out it was just as hard as the end game dungeons now (well for me at the time anyway). Maybe harder. It wasn't uncommon to spend 30 mins just getting through the last boss if ppl didn't know how to clear the caskets and many runs runs resulted in failures.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,292Member Arc User
    edited December 2018

    As pointed out , the end game meta-players will be a driving force in any mmo.. they really are the core of the player base.. I feel there are 2 types; meta players that enjoy a casual environment and like the challenges involved in helping lesser equipped players get through the harder dungeons and those that prefer an all elite environment where they don't have to bother with that..

    this could mirror some of the empathy vs elitism divide we see a lot of these days..
    and the endless circular arguments ^ (by misrepresentation)

    There are stacks of cool casual alliances and guilds often with many high end players involved, mostly about helping newer players learn the ropes.. my guild was formed with in mind in 2015 and many have passed through and gone on to joining one of the meta-guilds and alliances..

    personally for me D&D is about slowly tweaking all the classes as the game evolves.. I could of poured that into one char and stopped when it could not be improved any more but I probably wouldn't be still here playing nwo.
    B)
    2c

    To prevent to be misunderstood. I play this game as you obviously do. I don´t want to queue in meta-groups and onehit bosses, same as I have no problem to be paired with 13 or 14k chars.
    But if I am paired with player that don´t know how to buff or how to use their class at all, like using Devine Armor instead of Hollowed Ground, skipping every debuff at bosses, making a simple run fail, I get mad.
    This is a player , that never searched for any information about his class : "Neverwinter DC mod 15" or "NWO DC build". There are great detailed information about the correct way to play a class, like this one: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQswjajsP098kH3NtIQsBOUsM0bn8uWgBDdZVOMLJS9TL-x4Yjo1evB4jta9vaC7KLaUO-NJtiHkLBn/pub

    Atm. i am pretty much informed about 3 classes DC, GF, SW and I work on my paladin but did not get over the point to be "experienced" about the gameplay and wich power to use in a dungeon/boss etc.. I read maybe 3 to 4 guides, watched some vidoes etc. but I only feel comfortible in the prot-paragon, since the occasions to play Devo are rare outside a premade buffer group.
    I don´t queue for REQ with my 14.3k paladin, same as I avoid to random-queue with my 16.2k GF in REQ, since I know in 3 out of 5 runs that GF is in trouble doing tong or CR with 3 "uninformed" teammates...that´s what you actually get in random queue.
    So I carry with my lock as dps and my DC as a well build powerbuffer and stick with FBI/MSP on my paladin. My GF is somehow "out of function" atm even though I know how to run him, but my experience in random queu is: "You need 2-3 knowledgeable teammates to make those runs fluent."

    I am miserable on TR, Hunter, CW and I know how to play my 13k GWF, but have not much interest in that class.
    Those chars run leveling dungeons and RIQ at best, no need to upset anyone with my noobish gameplay.
    I´d like to be better, but have no time left to inform myself about those classes.
  • clericalistclericalist Posts: 572Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    lantern22 said:



    When VT first came out it was just as hard as the end game dungeons now (well for me at the time anyway). Maybe harder. It wasn't uncommon to spend 30 mins just getting through the last boss if ppl didn't know how to clear the caskets and many runs runs resulted in failures.

    Interesting you mention VT, it was a very hard boss to beat when it came out, but it was still beatable. It did require some coordination and communication with a party, but it was possible to win with a PUG party. It is not possible to win with a PUG party in all the new dungeons (other than perhaps for FBI where there is a very small chance to succeed).

    Obviously PUG parties should not have it so easy way to win all the hardest content, but having a 0% success chance in the expert queue is terrible.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 3,005Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    lantern22 said:



    When VT first came out it was just as hard as the end game dungeons now (well for me at the time anyway). Maybe harder. It wasn't uncommon to spend 30 mins just getting through the last boss if ppl didn't know how to clear the caskets and many runs runs resulted in failures.

    Interesting you mention VT, it was a very hard boss to beat when it came out, but it was still beatable. It did require some coordination and communication with a party, but it was possible to win with a PUG party. It is not possible to win with a PUG party in all the new dungeons (other than perhaps for FBI where there is a very small chance to succeed).

    Obviously PUG parties should not have it so easy way to win all the hardest content, but having a 0% success chance in the expert queue is terrible.
    VT with a pug party in mod2 had much less chance than anything today. That is unless you count jumping bellow her...

    Coordinating the zones for caskets in a pug... yeah.. right...
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • clericalistclericalist Posts: 572Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2018
    micky1p00 said:

    lantern22 said:



    When VT first came out it was just as hard as the end game dungeons now (well for me at the time anyway). Maybe harder. It wasn't uncommon to spend 30 mins just getting through the last boss if ppl didn't know how to clear the caskets and many runs runs resulted in failures.

    Interesting you mention VT, it was a very hard boss to beat when it came out, but it was still beatable. It did require some coordination and communication with a party, but it was possible to win with a PUG party. It is not possible to win with a PUG party in all the new dungeons (other than perhaps for FBI where there is a very small chance to succeed).

    Obviously PUG parties should not have it so easy way to win all the hardest content, but having a 0% success chance in the expert queue is terrible.
    VT with a pug party in mod2 had much less chance than anything today. That is unless you count jumping bellow her...

    Coordinating the zones for caskets in a pug... yeah.. right...
    That is not the experience I had with VT then, sure most ended in failure but I had a fair of wins in random parties. Perhaps I just had bad luck, but I have had zero success in TONG PUGS (and the ones after that) and that is with more tries than I had with VT in the past.

    Going back the opening post, I really do believe that the developers have done this because they listened to the people that shouted the loudest and built in this iron door that has shut out the bulk of the player base.

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 3,005Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2018

    micky1p00 said:

    lantern22 said:



    When VT first came out it was just as hard as the end game dungeons now (well for me at the time anyway). Maybe harder. It wasn't uncommon to spend 30 mins just getting through the last boss if ppl didn't know how to clear the caskets and many runs runs resulted in failures.

    Interesting you mention VT, it was a very hard boss to beat when it came out, but it was still beatable. It did require some coordination and communication with a party, but it was possible to win with a PUG party. It is not possible to win with a PUG party in all the new dungeons (other than perhaps for FBI where there is a very small chance to succeed).

    Obviously PUG parties should not have it so easy way to win all the hardest content, but having a 0% success chance in the expert queue is terrible.
    VT with a pug party in mod2 had much less chance than anything today. That is unless you count jumping bellow her...

    Coordinating the zones for caskets in a pug... yeah.. right...
    That is not the experience I had with VT then, sure most ended in failure but I had a fair of wins in random parties. Perhaps I just had bad luck, but I have had zero success in TONG PUGS (and the ones after that) and that is with more tries than I had with VT in the past.

    Going back the opening post, I really do believe that the developers have done this because they listened to the people that shouted the loudest and built in this iron door that has shut out the bulk of the player base.



    Before I've joined legit, every single pug VT was either going under her, or a failure. You either got friends, or you failed. I'm not sure where you even found a legit run in pug groups. The first week after release it was a rush to get the seals in any way possible (the quest sharing thing), no one even knew how it was supposed to be done.

    It took months until the proper way got to the general population..and therefore to pug groups.

    In any way, I think there is a basic assumption here, IMO, the bulk of the player base can do TONG without issue, that is if they play long enough to reach end-game.

    That doesn't mean necessarily gear / IL, that means the minimal experience in their class, the build, how to form a party, or why/what classes should go into a party, and in general how to join / form one without using the PubQ.

    For some it takes a month to figure, gear and be ready, for others years and they are still not up to it. But if we talk about the bulk of players... All the channels (open), alliances, take care of training runs, no IL runs, and whatever.. And that is the bulk of the player base, and not pockets of solo players.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • clericalistclericalist Posts: 572Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    You are talking about the first week of VT, TONG is more than a year old now and there is no way the failure rate of an average PUG in VT a year after is anything near as bad as TONG. In VT you could communicate to the others about calling their clock positions, in TONG one can try plan as much as you want, if you don't make the time limit the green balls will kill you.

    I also need to add that when VT came out the huge gap between the elite and the rest was not as bad as it is now, there were no level 20 guilds for the elite to belong to, there were less items one had to spend a lot of money or grind time on, and most importantly the developers then were more competent than now. This gap will only get worse as the developers don't know how to deal with the power creep and then decide to fix this by listening to only a tiny amount of the super elite.
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