Thank You for ruining DCs

heavensake

Really this is all just to much we need devs that have played game enough to understand what are good changes vs bad changes. I have been playing DC since open beta and have dealt with so many changes but the change to FF has tipped the scales. Really i am about ready to give this game up and know that is what the management wants. Get rid of all the old players and hope to just replace them with new. I have no issues with changes to TI and was all for the removal of its group buff. When it was added in mod 12 i thought it was pretty stupid. But being forced now to run BTS just hurts the AC play style. With so much lag in this game and then having to use a another laggy power on AC just takes all the fun out of the game. Feel like i am playing a tin can it is just so clunky.

fyrstigor

I always used BtS on my AC from the beginning, it had higher buff anyway. Now being forced to use it doesnt really matter. For the laggy part, its not laggy, it just have a slow animation when ur used to FF.

General lag in the game depends on many things. Ur PCs power. Ur internet speed. Who else is stealing all ur internet. And ur location. Since all servers are placed in the US, depending on where u live u can get some really bad ping times.

pitshade

Forgemasters and Break the Spirit have the same cast time:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1237385/bts-vs-ff/p1

It was silly that the devs in mod 5 made FF and BTS empowered do the same thing. Frankly I wish the current change at least made empowered FF still useful, but as far as it went, something had to be done about the two powers stacking.

heavensake

pitshade said:

Forgemasters and Break the Spirit have the same cast time:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1237385/bts-vs-ff/p1

It was silly that the devs in mod 5 made FF and BTS empowered do the same thing. Frankly I wish the current change at least made empowered FF still useful, but as far as it went, something had to be done about the two powers stacking.

Does casting time take into effect of laggy animation. If those videos was done with fallowing up by casting another power right after good chance there would be extra delay from BTS. Also in them videos the caster is standing still try casting BTS after a dodge vs casting FF. FF has always been a cleaner cast with short animations sure some depends on FPS issues also.

Besides this thread is not about BTS or FF be better than the other.

pitshade

The video shows everything that needs to be known. They have the same casting time and if you are experiencing lag, the powers will be affected the same.

"Besides this thread is not about BTS or FF be better than the other. "

Then exactly what is it about? All I see in the OP is your claim (which has been demonstrated to be false) that FF is faster and you don't like having to use it.

heavensake

pitshade said:

The video shows everything that needs to be known. They have the same casting time and if you are experiencing lag, the powers will be affected the same.

"Besides this thread is not about BTS or FF be better than the other. "

Then exactly what is it about? All I see in the OP is your claim (which has been demonstrated to be false) that FF is faster and you don't like having to use it.

Yeah right (nope you are wrong it proves nothing really. Casting FF or BTS at dummies is nothing even closer to the same as casting them in other conditions like MSPs lagfest. I must be dreaming when casting BTS that i just took 6 casts 4 failed from lag with animation rather then the 2 i intended.

aerhythia

FF does have the better "casting animation" or whatever you wanna call it. Try using each one as a dps single target encounter and you will notice (ignoring the damage of it of course). FF (while having a target) will always fire smoothly just like an IBS or Disintegrate or basically most skills in the game. BtS won't.

Also BtS seem to work better after casting an At-Will.

fyrstigor

heavensake#5599 said:

pitshade said:

The video shows everything that needs to be known. They have the same casting time and if you are experiencing lag, the powers will be affected the same.

"Besides this thread is not about BTS or FF be better than the other. "

Then exactly what is it about? All I see in the OP is your claim (which has been demonstrated to be false) that FF is faster and you don't like having to use it.

Yeah right (nope you are wrong it proves nothing really. Casting FF or BTS at dummies is nothing even closer to the same as casting them in other conditions like MSPs lagfest. I must be dreaming when casting BTS that i just took 6 casts 4 failed from lag with animation rather then the 2 i intended.

This "lagfest" u so speak of. Where does one go to experience it? And if u have it everywhere all the time no matter what u do. The lag is most likely on ur end. The game isnt perfect, there is lag at times. And i can force an instance to lag so much that everyone will feel it (doesnt work in all scenarios). But when ur explaining seems like its on ur end there is issues. Not the game, not the servers.

Maybe u should try figuring out theses things, get it smooth running first. Then complain about actual stuff that needs to be fixed. (And yes BtS could be running more smoothly like FF does. But its not at the point where we cant use it)

arcanjo86

if someone dont know how to cast empowereed ff+empowered bts in mod 15 well you need to time it right when casting it to have both buffs at same time, althou that ff no longer buffs damage, but damage resistance.

schietindebux

FF definitely performs better and smoother in my case, always did so. But it's outdated in mod 15. Those changes were band aids for a class stacking too much buffs in a double setup, needed changes but not perfect.

heavensake

arcanjo86 said:

if someone dont know how to cast empowereed ff+empowered bts in mod 15 well you need to time it right when casting it to have both buffs at same time, althou that ff no longer buffs damage, but damage resistance.

Um FF + BTS never worked really go test it just because you see both icons on buff bar does not mean you have both buffs in effect. FF + exalt could give both in empowered there are many ways to glitch the buff icon so that BTS shows and yet the buff does not.

heavensake

fyrstigor said:

heavensake#5599 said:

pitshade said:

The video shows everything that needs to be known. They have the same casting time and if you are experiencing lag, the powers will be affected the same.

"Besides this thread is not about BTS or FF be better than the other. "

Then exactly what is it about? All I see in the OP is your claim (which has been demonstrated to be false) that FF is faster and you don't like having to use it.

Yeah right (nope you are wrong it proves nothing really. Casting FF or BTS at dummies is nothing even closer to the same as casting them in other conditions like MSPs lagfest. I must be dreaming when casting BTS that i just took 6 casts 4 failed from lag with animation rather then the 2 i intended.

This "lagfest" u so speak of. Where does one go to experience it? And if u have it everywhere all the time no matter what u do. The lag is most likely on ur end. The game isnt perfect, there is lag at times. And i can force an instance to lag so much that everyone will feel it (doesnt work in all scenarios). But when ur explaining seems like its on ur end there is issues. Not the game, not the servers.

Maybe u should try figuring out theses things, get it smooth running first. Then complain about actual stuff that needs to be fixed. (And yes BtS could be running more smoothly like FF does. But its not at the point where we cant use it)

Some of the lag is on my end and yet much of it is not. I can recall there was never any lag before mod 6 launched and after lag became the new meta in game. Even overpowered the double DC in mod 12. Then again are you able to run msp to understand the lag that happens on pretty much every run just after the 2nd boss. It is almost like you haven taken the words from a customer support template you received "blaming me"". But next you will try to tell me it is also bug free and i am somehow to blame also.

heavensake

fyrstigor said:

heavensake#5599 said:

pitshade said:

The video shows everything that needs to be known. They have the same casting time and if you are experiencing lag, the powers will be affected the same.

"Besides this thread is not about BTS or FF be better than the other. "

Then exactly what is it about? All I see in the OP is your claim (which has been demonstrated to be false) that FF is faster and you don't like having to use it.

Yeah right (nope you are wrong it proves nothing really. Casting FF or BTS at dummies is nothing even closer to the same as casting them in other conditions like MSPs lagfest. I must be dreaming when casting BTS that i just took 6 casts 4 failed from lag with animation rather then the 2 i intended.

This "lagfest" u so speak of. Where does one go to experience it? And if u have it everywhere all the time no matter what u do. The lag is most likely on ur end. The game isnt perfect, there is lag at times. And i can force an instance to lag so much that everyone will feel it (doesnt work in all scenarios). But when ur explaining seems like its on ur end there is issues. Not the game, not the servers.

Maybe u should try figuring out theses things, get it smooth running first. Then complain about actual stuff that needs to be fixed. (And yes BtS could be running more smoothly like FF does. But its not at the point where we cant use it)

Sure some of the lag could be on my end but a good share of it is not. Like pretty much everyone that runs msp knows of the lag just after second boss when fighting mobs. But so snarky of a response from you it is almost like you stole a template from customer support how you explained that it is me and not the game.
FYI i am not complaining about something needing fix i am complaining about something they broke. Get what smooth running BTS ? With such long casting animations it is out of my control. And as for isp i have tried several have newer top end PC all i have found is has something to do with how the server is directed into my area of the US.

fyrstigor

heavensake#5599 said:

fyrstigor said:

heavensake#5599 said:

pitshade said:

The video shows everything that needs to be known. They have the same casting time and if you are experiencing lag, the powers will be affected the same.

"Besides this thread is not about BTS or FF be better than the other. "

Then exactly what is it about? All I see in the OP is your claim (which has been demonstrated to be false) that FF is faster and you don't like having to use it.

Yeah right (nope you are wrong it proves nothing really. Casting FF or BTS at dummies is nothing even closer to the same as casting them in other conditions like MSPs lagfest. I must be dreaming when casting BTS that i just took 6 casts 4 failed from lag with animation rather then the 2 i intended.

This "lagfest" u so speak of. Where does one go to experience it? And if u have it everywhere all the time no matter what u do. The lag is most likely on ur end. The game isnt perfect, there is lag at times. And i can force an instance to lag so much that everyone will feel it (doesnt work in all scenarios). But when ur explaining seems like its on ur end there is issues. Not the game, not the servers.

Maybe u should try figuring out theses things, get it smooth running first. Then complain about actual stuff that needs to be fixed. (And yes BtS could be running more smoothly like FF does. But its not at the point where we cant use it)

Sure some of the lag could be on my end but a good share of it is not. Like pretty much everyone that runs msp knows of the lag just after second boss when fighting mobs. But so snarky of a response from you it is almost like you stole a template from customer support how you explained that it is me and not the game.
FYI i am not complaining about something needing fix i am complaining about something they broke. Get what smooth running BTS ? With such long casting animations it is out of my control. And as for isp i have tried several have newer top end PC all i have found is has something to do with how the server is directed into my area of the US.

Im not from customer support. And i would love for them to fix things or not break things. But having people complain about stuff thats just wrong, takes the focus away from things that matter.

BtS could be better. But its in the same state its been for a long time. I used it 2 years ago, i use it now. Nothing really changed on it for me. I prefer FF cause its smoother, just like everyone else. If ur post had been along the lines of "make BtS as smooth as FF" i would agree. But simply stating DCs are ruined cause ur unable to use BtS correctly, and because u have a setup that clearly cant run Neverwinter correctly, or u live in an area where ur ISP is messing with u. All that doesnt mean the DCs have been broken. That just means u have personal issues.

I play from EU, i have an average of about 140 ping. My PC isnt top tier but a strong middle line. Neverwinter is always running at 60 FPS. Im unable to agree with anything of what ur saying is the "normal" behavior of a dungeon.

heavensake

fyrstigor said:

heavensake#5599 said:

fyrstigor said:

heavensake#5599 said:

pitshade said:

The video shows everything that needs to be known. They have the same casting time and if you are experiencing lag, the powers will be affected the same.

"Besides this thread is not about BTS or FF be better than the other. "

Then exactly what is it about? All I see in the OP is your claim (which has been demonstrated to be false) that FF is faster and you don't like having to use it.

Yeah right (nope you are wrong it proves nothing really. Casting FF or BTS at dummies is nothing even closer to the same as casting them in other conditions like MSPs lagfest. I must be dreaming when casting BTS that i just took 6 casts 4 failed from lag with animation rather then the 2 i intended.

This "lagfest" u so speak of. Where does one go to experience it? And if u have it everywhere all the time no matter what u do. The lag is most likely on ur end. The game isnt perfect, there is lag at times. And i can force an instance to lag so much that everyone will feel it (doesnt work in all scenarios). But when ur explaining seems like its on ur end there is issues. Not the game, not the servers.

Maybe u should try figuring out theses things, get it smooth running first. Then complain about actual stuff that needs to be fixed. (And yes BtS could be running more smoothly like FF does. But its not at the point where we cant use it)

Sure some of the lag could be on my end but a good share of it is not. Like pretty much everyone that runs msp knows of the lag just after second boss when fighting mobs. But so snarky of a response from you it is almost like you stole a template from customer support how you explained that it is me and not the game.
FYI i am not complaining about something needing fix i am complaining about something they broke. Get what smooth running BTS ? With such long casting animations it is out of my control. And as for isp i have tried several have newer top end PC all i have found is has something to do with how the server is directed into my area of the US.

Im not from customer support. And i would love for them to fix things or not break things. But having people complain about stuff thats just wrong, takes the focus away from things that matter.

BtS could be better. But its in the same state its been for a long time. I used it 2 years ago, i use it now. Nothing really changed on it for me. I prefer FF cause its smoother, just like everyone else. If ur post had been along the lines of "make BtS as smooth as FF" i would agree. But simply stating DCs are ruined cause ur unable to use BtS correctly, and because u have a setup that clearly cant run Neverwinter correctly, or u live in an area where ur ISP is messing with u. All that doesnt mean the DCs have been broken. That just means u have personal issues.

I play from EU, i have an average of about 140 ping. My PC isnt top tier but a strong middle line. Neverwinter is always running at 60 FPS. Im unable to agree with anything of what ur saying is the "normal" behavior of a dungeon.

Get over yourself what game are you playing? I have np running my DC it has just become very boring. The lag i have is just bas normal as anyone in this game. Geesh just last night as the night before i had 2 people complain of lag in msp. had 3 other get disconnected from 3 or 4 randumb runs. But i am far from alone with these feelings just alone in the fact that anyone who had cared about this game has either given it up or given up on posting. FF has always had a damage buff BoTS always ticked in divine mod. Some things in game should not be changed just because a few developers can not solve power creep issues. Not when it causes other long term players grief from not being able to play the game in ways that they have been doing for years.

fyrstigor

So we have now shifted from the DCs being broken. To working just fine, and ur lag is suddenly not real lag that keeps u from playing the game anymore. And ur definition of a broken DC is because u are bored with playing it. Have u considered another class to spice things up a bit?

Changes to FF buff, BoTS building divinity in divine mode doesnt really affect the power creep issue and was changed because of other reasons. FF was changed cause Cryptic wanna try and force us away from the 2 DC meta. This helps with it. I dont know why the other thing was changed, but it still a pretty small change overall.

Its very normal for a MMO to shift and change over time. If u as a player are unwilling to change with it, or adapt to these changes MMO games are proberly not the right choice for u.

Do u remember the old days where a group was made with CW and GWF only. And there was so much CC that nothing ever moved in a dungeon. Cryptic didnt like that, so they shifted the game and pushed it away from that. This isnt any different.

heavensake

fyrstigor said:

So we have now shifted from the DCs being broken. To working just fine, and ur lag is suddenly not real lag that keeps u from playing the game anymore. And ur definition of a broken DC is because u are bored with playing it. Have u considered another class to spice things up a bit?

Changes to FF buff, BoTS building divinity in divine mode doesnt really affect the power creep issue and was changed because of other reasons. FF was changed cause Cryptic wanna try and force us away from the 2 DC meta. This helps with it. I dont know why the other thing was changed, but it still a pretty small change overall.

Its very normal for a MMO to shift and change over time. If u as a player are unwilling to change with it, or adapt to these changes MMO games are proberly not the right choice for u.

Do u remember the old days where a group was made with CW and GWF only. And there was so much CC that nothing ever moved in a dungeon. Cryptic didnt like that, so they shifted the game and pushed it away from that. This isnt any different.

"You" have shifted and derailed the thread over and over. Accusing my problems is due to lag on my end or saying i do not know how to play DC. Just one insult after another is all that comes from your replies. When in fact i am far from alone when it comes to feeling the changes to DC. But like most on forums they are either new players or very casual players that are not really impacted by changes.

I have been playing DC since open beta and have seen and dealt with many changes. But these last changes have ruined DOs and am forced to run AC to get into groups outside of guild friends and randumb. I have always ran righteous DO since open beta pretty much have run dual DC since mod 4 onward. But with the last changes i feel like wasted space. There is no real go to power for the 2nd DC now and no real place for a DO at all.. DO under performs vs AC so now i am forced to run a clunky AC or play wheel chair with my DO.

They have taken the last bit of enjoyment from the game. Turning things that used to be fun into something that feels more like work or a second job "professions". I have always played this game in a way that i wanted to. But now i am being told how i must play the game. Making less and less options where it maters and adding tons of options to things most could care less about.

dragoness10

My DO DC is F I N E. So is my TR and CW.

That's probably the build I use rather than one that's pulled up from some web page used as a recipe blindly followed rather than taking into account an individual's playstyle.

heavensake

dragoness10 said:

My DO DC is F I N E. So is my TR and CW.
playstyle.

Explain "Fine"

cdnbison

dragoness10 said:

My DO DC is F I N E. So is my TR and CW.

That's probably the build I use rather than one that's pulled up from some web page used as a recipe blindly followed rather than taking into account an individual's playstyle.

I use my DO for questing / soloing, and I've had no problems. I quest, stuff dies, good guys win! My AC / group loadout is also doing just fine. Can still buff through all content without a problem.

vorphied

cdnbison said:

dragoness10 said:

My DO DC is F I N E. So is my TR and CW.

That's probably the build I use rather than one that's pulled up from some web page used as a recipe blindly followed rather than taking into account an individual's playstyle.

I use my DO for questing / soloing, and I've had no problems. I quest, stuff dies, good guys win! My AC / group loadout is also doing just fine. Can still buff through all content without a problem.

To be fair, this hasn't been and is not the issue with DO. Any class can complete solo questing activities satisfactorily, and DO was already highly efficient in this area.

The devs should really double down on the DO being the DPS DC path since they are intent on setting AC DC as the premier buff support. Cryptic has made it very plain that they do not want players to take 2x supporting DCs (never mind that they still don't seem to understand that it's the overall buff meta that is the issue), so they can either make DO truly competitive in a different role or they can do...nothing, and leave DO DC to keep support CW company in the bottom tier, where you are only desirable to fill extra slots in 10-person content.

thefabricant

I just popped into this thread to reiterate what has already been said. FF and BtS have the same animation time. Here are 2 reliable sources which both verify the same thing:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1239363/dc-power-animation-times-and-power-cancelling
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1237385/bts-vs-ff/p1

And I will also add that I have tested this myself and found no difference either. Anyone who has actually tested these powers and isn't just pulling information out of thin air would know this.

heavensake

thefabricant said:

I just popped into this thread to reiterate what has already been said. FF and BtS have the same animation time. Here are 2 reliable sources which both verify the same thing:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1239363/dc-power-animation-times-and-power-cancelling
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1237385/bts-vs-ff/p1

And I will also add that I have tested this myself and found no difference either. Anyone who has actually tested these powers and isn't just pulling information out of thin air would know this.

Out of thin air? i have been pulling it from 4+ years of playing DC. Those test are under perfect conditions and that is where it fails to apply to this thread. Because it is not the animation time it what powers animation can get laggy more often. I never made any such claim when it comes to time but like many others its black or white no other variables mater. I know for a fact and am sure you do as well that in some conditions there is this special kind of animation lag when using BTS that we do not get with FF. I have spoken to so many DCs in game and pretty much have yet to hear anyone disagree.

schietindebux

"Thin air" can´t be an argument when player just state that FF is more comfortable and fluent to be applied, running the class in groupcontent.
FF allways felt more fluent to me, same as BtS often feels like "did I cast it 3 times or did I miss one ?", not that I want to start a discussion about the possiblity to apply BtS in the same time standing solo in front of a dummy.
If someone pops in and says he think that BtS is the easier and more handy encounter from both, I will accept it.

vorphied said:

cdnbison said:

dragoness10 said:

My DO DC is F I N E. So is my TR and CW.
That's probably the build I use rather than one that's pulled up from some web page used as a recipe blindly followed rather than taking into account an individual's playstyle.

I use my DO for questing / soloing, and I've had no problems. I quest, stuff dies, good guys win! My AC / group loadout is also doing just fine. Can still buff through all content without a problem.

To be fair, this hasn't been and is not the issue with DO. Any class can complete solo questing activities satisfactorily, and DO was already highly efficient in this area.

The devs should really double down on the DO being the DPS DC path since they are intent on setting AC DC as the premier buff support. Cryptic has made it very plain that they do not want players to take 2x supporting DCs (never mind that they still don't seem to understand that it's the overall buff meta that is the issue), so they can either make DO truly competitive in a different role or they can do...nothing, and leave DO DC to keep support CW company in the bottom tier, where you are only desirable to fill extra slots in 10-person content.

From my pov the change to DO made a significant change in almost every random group I entered.
The chat I read 24/7, searching for " OP-DC-DC " stopped, the groups are far more "balanced".
I see far more runs with two dps in a groups.
This looks like an improvement to me.
Now DO needs some finetuning maybe, but there are not many player actually playing a DO-DC on a maxed dps level to have any insight in the actual ability of that class.
The core problem is that you can´t enter with your DO as a dps in queue, same problem GF got.
In terms of added buffs a DO stands head to head with other second degree buffer or is slightly better than others, using HG+TI+PoD.
I think it was said to maybe change in mod 16... but if they do so, they have to be very careful especially about dps GF imo to not enter into the next "oneway-meta".

thefabricant

heavensake#5599 said:

thefabricant said:

I just popped into this thread to reiterate what has already been said. FF and BtS have the same animation time. Here are 2 reliable sources which both verify the same thing:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1239363/dc-power-animation-times-and-power-cancelling
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1237385/bts-vs-ff/p1

And I will also add that I have tested this myself and found no difference either. Anyone who has actually tested these powers and isn't just pulling information out of thin air would know this.

Out of thin air? i have been pulling it from 4+ years of playing DC.

So out of thin air then? Got it. I could have said I have been playing NW for the same period of time (I have, as a matter of fact) and it wouldn't mean anything, which is why I didn't bring up "number of years playing nw" as an argument, because it isn't 1. It isn't relevant to the discussion because all that matters is how that time is spent. I know people with 100's of millions of AD, with most classes BiS without spending $. These players play every class at the highest level and can kill every boss in seconds and most of them have been playing for under a year and you know what, they know how to test stuff. I also know people who have been playing for 4+ years and have never set foot in any dungeon harder than CN, who don't. So no, bringing up playtime is not relevant in this argument.

Objectively, they have an animation of the same length and you know what, when I am lagging in ToNG or CR, I find BtS easier to use since if an enemy dies while you are casting FF, it is very easy to accidentally empower whatever you were going to use after FF since it cancels the cast.

I do not agree with the changes, but the reason given is not a good reason to argue for FF to keep its buff. The real issue is that now FF is useless and already before the change FF was just -BtS. What I would have done is:

1) Fix the bug with FF+ Exa.
2) Leave TI at 20%. It wasn't broken, don't change it.
3) Remove the buff from BtS. Change empowered BtS to make the normal effect a 50' AoE that reduces enemies damage.
4) Leave the buff on FF at 15%.

Then you have 2 distinct, useful powers that have very clearly defined roles.