When I do run with GWF, most runs take longer for some reason. T9 typically without a GWF it is under 20 minutes. With a GWF in there we are talking around 22-25 minutes.
This isn't at all my experience with a strong GWF, unless perhaps they are playing main DPS for a low-buff group. While CW can provide more damage bonuses to the party compared to GWF, this doesn't add up to much unless you're in the unusual situation of having multiple strong DPS (which, outside of Cradle with its 10-slot makeup, means lacking buffs). The sheer damage the GWF puts out should easily counter the added benefit the MoF brings, provided that the GWF is at least as strong as the MoF.
I used to be more in the camp of "CW is a great supporting DPS because of X, Y, and Z", but truly? SW does it better. While a proper DPS MoF will (or at least should) definitely exceed the single-target damage of a Templock, the Templock effortlessly fills the healer role (for any situation except one where enemies cannot be damaged) while improving party damage and providing a 20% movement speed buff to the entire party during fights and for 5 seconds after. Support SW is simply a more efficient choice for most content because of all of the benefits it brings.
Unfortunately, Cradle is currently the only place where I feel that a CW (MoF) truly has its own place. Again, CW is obviously capable of completing any content, but it's still Miss Congeniality at best in the DPS Pageant.
There are more bad GWF at end game than STRONG GWF at at end game. That is the issue at hand. You find that with other class, most players tend to be better for their IL than most of the GWF because finding a STRONG GWF is like finding a needle in a hack stack.
So when I form groups I am rarely going to pick up a GWF because finding a strong one is like finding a needle in the hay stack. I rather just pick up a HR, TR, or a SW over a GWF.
0
lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
You're talking about how useful the CW is as a buffer and debuffer. You were responding to a post about BIS maximising of a class' damage potential, and how the CW fits that compared to others. So, you're talking about something else not actually relevant to the point being made.
Well that's almost as ridiculous as posting in the CW Library repeatedly to just bash the class and talk about how it has no future...
Oh wait, that's what -you- keep doing in various threads, whereas mebengalsfan was actually being helpful here.
And looking at the OP's title, and original post, the acronym DPS doesn't appear once, nor the phrase "damage potential". That's your interpretation until/unless smulch specifies otherwise.
So GWF has an easier time doing DPS... yeah that's nice. Mebengalsfan was pointing out other value that the CW can bring which contributes to the overall effectiveness of the run. Like, the whole team's performance. While still doing a bunch of DPS.
"Best" is a subjective term. If the only thing that qualified something as "Best" or a candidate for "Best In Slot":was DPS potential, and utility or buff/debuff benefits added no value, then several classes would be considered useless. Clearly that's not the case.
-Gohaken
How was that being helpful? I'm "bashing the class", and mebengalsfan is talking about how "things aren't so bad". Stop and think for a moment. CW has been in a bad place for a long, long time. Until recently TRs and SWs were down there with us, but now, we're in the ditch all by ourselves. How is any talk in this forum going to help the situation at all? People keep making suggestions here about their clever ideas to make things better, and how can that possibly have any affect? Well, it might have an effect if DEVs looks in here to see how CWs are feeling, and take notice. If they look in here and see a bunch of CWs that are saying "things aren't so bad", then they know they don't need to get off their buts and do something for the class. If they see people complaining about how bad a state the class is in, different thing. Really, stop and think for a moment about what is actually being realistically helpful to CWs. Far as I'm concerned, CWs generally have themselves to blame for the lack of attention and care from DEVs - mostly because they don't take the opportunity to communicate how bad the problem is. The one thing that is worse than silence, is posts saying "things aren't so bad".
You're talking about how useful the CW is as a buffer and debuffer. You were responding to a post about BIS maximising of a class' damage potential, and how the CW fits that compared to others. So, you're talking about something else not actually relevant to the point being made.
Well that's almost as ridiculous as posting in the CW Library repeatedly to just bash the class and talk about how it has no future...
Oh wait, that's what -you- keep doing in various threads, whereas mebengalsfan was actually being helpful here.
And looking at the OP's title, and original post, the acronym DPS doesn't appear once, nor the phrase "damage potential". That's your interpretation until/unless smulch specifies otherwise.
So GWF has an easier time doing DPS... yeah that's nice. Mebengalsfan was pointing out other value that the CW can bring which contributes to the overall effectiveness of the run. Like, the whole team's performance. While still doing a bunch of DPS.
"Best" is a subjective term. If the only thing that qualified something as "Best" or a candidate for "Best In Slot":was DPS potential, and utility or buff/debuff benefits added no value, then several classes would be considered useless. Clearly that's not the case.
-Gohaken
How was that being helpful? I'm "bashing the class", and mebengalsfan is talking about how "things aren't so bad". Stop and think for a moment. CW has been in a bad place for a long, long time. Until recently TRs and SWs were down there with us, but now, we're in the ditch all by ourselves. How is any talk in this forum going to help the situation at all? People keep making suggestions here about their clever ideas to make things better, and how can that possibly have any affect? Well, it might have an effect if DEVs looks in here to see how CWs are feeling, and take notice. If they look in here and see a bunch of CWs that are saying "things aren't so bad", then they know they don't need to get off their buts and do something for the class. If they see people complaining about how bad a state the class is in, different thing. Really, stop and think for a moment about what is actually being realistically helpful to CWs. Far as I'm concerned, CWs generally have themselves to blame for the lack of attention and care from DEVs - mostly because they don't take the opportunity to communicate how bad the problem is. The one thing that is worse than silence, is posts saying "things aren't so bad".
Devs cannot resolve the problem of the CW unless you show where the problem is damage wise. If you go through my post I am never on the side of OMG DPS is awesome. I'm on the side of the buffing/hybrid build of CWs and that is where things are not so bad. Especially the hybrid build which is what I run.
As for the damage of a CW, prior to mod 13 CW using the SS offhand running a Lighting enchantment were doing really good damage. Than if you went with a Fey on bosses you would not lose as much damage and keep up with HR and GWF. Since mod 13 the devs fixed the CW and yeah we took a hit on the Thaum build but end up with a viable Oppressor build for a true hybrid build. My Opp builds do roughly 85-90% of the damage of my Thaum but I am able to add a debuff and a buff to the group making the primary DPS even stronger and helping the group complete content quicker. How is this a bad thing?
When comparing a CW to a SW, the SW Temp build is pure buffing - lines up closer to a DO than a CW MoF Buffer/Hybrid. The CW should be the secondary DPS in content for additional buffing to the group when you cannot get a GF to run with. The renegade buffer path does need work to get it closer to a DO DC and a Templock.
As for pure DPS, I am a bit behind a HR, TR and GWF. Around 10% less damage. So something for the Thaum build does need to be done and I'm not going to disagree with that. But the CW is not in as bad as a place like TRs due to the fact TRs did not have other options, CW do and that is where CW has the ability to get into groups.
This post also was about his stats and his gear and not how the original poster plays his CW. He simply was showing his gear and stats. He has done a great job achieving high stats but is it better lower some of those stats to squeeze more damage out or is he fine where he is at because he plays his CW more as a buffer? That is up to the OP and if he does play as a buffer than I'm fine with his stats and gear as he will be able to keep CA up do to higher recovery. Though swapping over to Quick Action Mount equipped power would be better than the 4K power if he is trying to keep up his Action Points.
Now if he is a dps than I would consider going with the Jaw Rippers gloves for the 3% damage boost to encounters and keeping the enduring boots. As for armor enchantment, if you keep the enduring boost I would get an Eclipse enchantment for the sole purpose of keeping Stamina full.
As for pure DPS, I am a bit behind a HR, TR and GWF. Around 10% less damage.
You might want to try running with some different (better) DPS. If everyone executes at about the same level and has equivalent buff support, the CW will be more than 10% behind even if they are running an actual DPS setup and not some over-debuffing pure support build.
Though swapping over to Quick Action Mount equipped power would be better than the 4K power if he is trying to keep up his Action Points.
Now if he is a dps than I would consider going with the Jaw Rippers gloves for the 3% damage boost to encounters and keeping the enduring boots. As for armor enchantment, if you keep the enduring boost I would get an Eclipse enchantment for the sole purpose of keeping Stamina full.
Quick Action is a good idea regardless since CW dailies are strong. 4k power isn't much at all in a buffed party, as I'm sure you're aware.
Eclipse's stamina restoration only kicks in if you deplete it first, so the CW would already have to be teleporting quite a bit in order to benefit from the enchantment's proc, basically defeating the entire idea. I think an Elven Battle would be better for this purpose, but I question the usefulness of dedicating an armor enchantment slot to gaining slightly more uptime on a marginal DPS bonus on a very low-stat piece of equipment that is likely to get replaced sooner rather than later.
As for pure DPS, I am a bit behind a HR, TR and GWF. Around 10% less damage.
You might want to try running with some different (better) DPS. If everyone executes at about the same level and has equivalent buff support, the CW will be more than 10% behind even if they are running an actual DPS setup and not some over-debuffing pure support build.
If you want to talk about class and damage you need to set things to level ground.
1) No buffs 2) Damage is parsed at a sparring target 3) Damage is monitored in 10 second intervals 4) Each class than will parse a target for 30 second, 60 seconds, 90 seconds, etc...all the way up to 5 minutes 5) Tool that is used to capture this has to be able to capture the following: damage per a second within 10 second intervals, damage per a second for the full time allocated (30,60, 90, etc...), lowest damage by each ability, highest damage by each ability, total damage within 10 seconds and total damage for the full time parsing 6) No artifact used - just at wills, encounters and dailies 7) All classes stats will be similar for power, crit, recovery, and armor pen 8) All classes will run the same mount insignia bonus 9) All classes will run the same mount power 10) etc...
I have done extensive testing in other games for class balancing and it was not pretty. Everyone gets upset when you state that XYZ is broken or when you show the devs that a class is over or under performing. Most games want their classes to be within 5% of each other.
This game tools to test and validate are HAMSTER and not even good to say XYZ is balanced. It is also not the responsibility of the player base to validate if a class is balance and within 5% of the other classes. That is on the devs to do and if they do it than great and if not, than they need to step up and fix it.
As for the CW in its current state, I typically do my test from MC up to CN with similarly geared and skilled players. My CW is within 10% of the top DPS and I'm usually last in damage in my group. I run with a HR, GWF, TR, SW and my CW. The top DPS in the group is the HR, followed by either the TR or the GWF and than it is between the SW and CW with CW taking lead when content has more adds.
I'm not saying the CW doesn't need to be adjusted, because it does need to be adjusted. I'm stating that many here make the CW sound like it worst than it really is. It is still viable for end game content.
As for the CW in its current state, I typically do my test from MC up to CN with similarly geared and skilled players.
I'm not going to quibble over potential for disparate impact with the testing parameters you outlined since I'm not having this discussion just for the sake of arguing, but I would at least call out that dungeons like MC and CN are not excellent testing grounds.
I would suggest that any dungeon that can be comfortably soloed is not an ideal test environment since the numbers will be very strongly skewed towards who ends up hitting the most mobs the fastest on account of the enemies not having many HP to begin with, and boss fights are so short that some classes can't even finish stacking their self-buffs before the target dies.
I'm also noting no DC or OP in your test configuration, which I would assume to be consequential since classes that self-buff the best should benefit the most from further multiplicative buff stacking, as would likely happen in an average end-game party. CW and SW are both comparatively light on self buffs (not counting Chilling Presence, which is needed just to pull decent, much less exceptional DPS), while the physical DPS classes have much more in the way of self-buffing built in to their kits.
I'm not saying the CW doesn't need to be adjusted, because it does need to be adjusted. I'm stating that many here make the CW sound like it worst than it really is. It is still viable for end game content.
I agree that CW is viable if by that we mean "adequate." What I don't want is for players or devs to think that mere viability is an acceptable standard. Being very obviously the worst overall class in the game is not acceptable.
As for the CW in its current state, I typically do my test from MC up to CN with similarly geared and skilled players.
I'm not going to quibble over potential for disparate impact with the testing parameters you outlined since I'm not having this discussion just for the sake of arguing, but I would at least call out that dungeons like MC and CN are not excellent testing grounds.
Dungeons are not perfect place to test. In T9 or CR it is a matter of who gets there first just like the lower level dungeons. As for buffs, the buffers have to ensure they are equally buffing both the DPS classes and given how aiming works it is a very hard thing to manage. The pure DPS run is not perfect but it is fun to do.
As for having group buffs for testing out the classes; that is an end test after you get a baseline. You need to form a baseline first and the parameters I listed are a start to doing true class balancing for damage. Once you have the baseline you adjust each class as needed to get closer to each other in damage. Than you start to add the buffs and debuff from other classes and slowly adjust things again as needed.
The devs need to pull testing away from the hands of the player base and keep it in house. Other games where the players were testing, class specific bugs were not reported due to the high player population of the class and it resulted in other players leaving the game due to class imbalances. I'm all for giving player the chance to test out new content but when it comes to class balancing, I rather leave to the company as they know all the inner working of the game and what they can and cannot adjust easily to fix the imbalance of classes.
... I agree that CW is viable if by that we mean "adequate." ...
The adequacy of CW is a point of debate and contention I suppose.
But...
The payment is adequate. Of this, there can be no question.
It is my understanding come mod 15 the only DPS that will be above and beyond all others is the GWF than the GF. This is due to the self buffing that these classes have and this will result in them being able to surpass other DPS builds/classes.
My gut tells that come mod 16 we may see changes to these two classes reducing or modifying how they produce damage, evening out the field and getting all classes closer together along with expanding each class to have 2 roles for Qing in the game.
Mod 15 just seems like a bore at this point and the devs are trying to push il over gear of value. I hope mod 16 this changes as I am not a fan of mod 15 at all.
Comments
So when I form groups I am rarely going to pick up a GWF because finding a strong one is like finding a needle in the hay stack. I rather just pick up a HR, TR, or a SW over a GWF.
I'm "bashing the class", and mebengalsfan is talking about how "things aren't so bad".
Stop and think for a moment. CW has been in a bad place for a long, long time. Until recently TRs and SWs were down there with us, but now, we're in the ditch all by ourselves.
How is any talk in this forum going to help the situation at all? People keep making suggestions here about their clever ideas to make things better, and how can that possibly have any affect? Well, it might have an effect if DEVs looks in here to see how CWs are feeling, and take notice. If they look in here and see a bunch of CWs that are saying "things aren't so bad", then they know they don't need to get off their buts and do something for the class. If they see people complaining about how bad a state the class is in, different thing.
Really, stop and think for a moment about what is actually being realistically helpful to CWs. Far as I'm concerned, CWs generally have themselves to blame for the lack of attention and care from DEVs - mostly because they don't take the opportunity to communicate how bad the problem is. The one thing that is worse than silence, is posts saying "things aren't so bad".
As for the damage of a CW, prior to mod 13 CW using the SS offhand running a Lighting enchantment were doing really good damage. Than if you went with a Fey on bosses you would not lose as much damage and keep up with HR and GWF. Since mod 13 the devs fixed the CW and yeah we took a hit on the Thaum build but end up with a viable Oppressor build for a true hybrid build. My Opp builds do roughly 85-90% of the damage of my Thaum but I am able to add a debuff and a buff to the group making the primary DPS even stronger and helping the group complete content quicker. How is this a bad thing?
When comparing a CW to a SW, the SW Temp build is pure buffing - lines up closer to a DO than a CW MoF Buffer/Hybrid. The CW should be the secondary DPS in content for additional buffing to the group when you cannot get a GF to run with. The renegade buffer path does need work to get it closer to a DO DC and a Templock.
As for pure DPS, I am a bit behind a HR, TR and GWF. Around 10% less damage. So something for the Thaum build does need to be done and I'm not going to disagree with that. But the CW is not in as bad as a place like TRs due to the fact TRs did not have other options, CW do and that is where CW has the ability to get into groups.
This post also was about his stats and his gear and not how the original poster plays his CW. He simply was showing his gear and stats. He has done a great job achieving high stats but is it better lower some of those stats to squeeze more damage out or is he fine where he is at because he plays his CW more as a buffer? That is up to the OP and if he does play as a buffer than I'm fine with his stats and gear as he will be able to keep CA up do to higher recovery. Though swapping over to Quick Action Mount equipped power would be better than the 4K power if he is trying to keep up his Action Points.
Now if he is a dps than I would consider going with the Jaw Rippers gloves for the 3% damage boost to encounters and keeping the enduring boots. As for armor enchantment, if you keep the enduring boost I would get an Eclipse enchantment for the sole purpose of keeping Stamina full.
Quick Action is a good idea regardless since CW dailies are strong. 4k power isn't much at all in a buffed party, as I'm sure you're aware.
Eclipse's stamina restoration only kicks in if you deplete it first, so the CW would already have to be teleporting quite a bit in order to benefit from the enchantment's proc, basically defeating the entire idea. I think an Elven Battle would be better for this purpose, but I question the usefulness of dedicating an armor enchantment slot to gaining slightly more uptime on a marginal DPS bonus on a very low-stat piece of equipment that is likely to get replaced sooner rather than later.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
If you want to talk about class and damage you need to set things to level ground.
1) No buffs
2) Damage is parsed at a sparring target
3) Damage is monitored in 10 second intervals
4) Each class than will parse a target for 30 second, 60 seconds, 90 seconds, etc...all the way up to 5 minutes
5) Tool that is used to capture this has to be able to capture the following: damage per a second within 10 second intervals, damage per a second for the full time allocated (30,60, 90, etc...), lowest damage by each ability, highest damage by each ability, total damage within 10 seconds and total damage for the full time parsing
6) No artifact used - just at wills, encounters and dailies
7) All classes stats will be similar for power, crit, recovery, and armor pen
8) All classes will run the same mount insignia bonus
9) All classes will run the same mount power
10) etc...
I have done extensive testing in other games for class balancing and it was not pretty. Everyone gets upset when you state that XYZ is broken or when you show the devs that a class is over or under performing. Most games want their classes to be within 5% of each other.
This game tools to test and validate are HAMSTER and not even good to say XYZ is balanced. It is also not the responsibility of the player base to validate if a class is balance and within 5% of the other classes. That is on the devs to do and if they do it than great and if not, than they need to step up and fix it.
As for the CW in its current state, I typically do my test from MC up to CN with similarly geared and skilled players. My CW is within 10% of the top DPS and I'm usually last in damage in my group. I run with a HR, GWF, TR, SW and my CW. The top DPS in the group is the HR, followed by either the TR or the GWF and than it is between the SW and CW with CW taking lead when content has more adds.
I'm not saying the CW doesn't need to be adjusted, because it does need to be adjusted. I'm stating that many here make the CW sound like it worst than it really is. It is still viable for end game content.
I would suggest that any dungeon that can be comfortably soloed is not an ideal test environment since the numbers will be very strongly skewed towards who ends up hitting the most mobs the fastest on account of the enemies not having many HP to begin with, and boss fights are so short that some classes can't even finish stacking their self-buffs before the target dies.
I'm also noting no DC or OP in your test configuration, which I would assume to be consequential since classes that self-buff the best should benefit the most from further multiplicative buff stacking, as would likely happen in an average end-game party. CW and SW are both comparatively light on self buffs (not counting Chilling Presence, which is needed just to pull decent, much less exceptional DPS), while the physical DPS classes have much more in the way of self-buffing built in to their kits. I agree that CW is viable if by that we mean "adequate." What I don't want is for players or devs to think that mere viability is an acceptable standard. Being very obviously the worst overall class in the game is not acceptable.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
As for having group buffs for testing out the classes; that is an end test after you get a baseline. You need to form a baseline first and the parameters I listed are a start to doing true class balancing for damage. Once you have the baseline you adjust each class as needed to get closer to each other in damage. Than you start to add the buffs and debuff from other classes and slowly adjust things again as needed.
The devs need to pull testing away from the hands of the player base and keep it in house. Other games where the players were testing, class specific bugs were not reported due to the high player population of the class and it resulted in other players leaving the game due to class imbalances. I'm all for giving player the chance to test out new content but when it comes to class balancing, I rather leave to the company as they know all the inner working of the game and what they can and cannot adjust easily to fix the imbalance of classes.
My gut tells that come mod 16 we may see changes to these two classes reducing or modifying how they produce damage, evening out the field and getting all classes closer together along with expanding each class to have 2 roles for Qing in the game.
Mod 15 just seems like a bore at this point and the devs are trying to push il over gear of value. I hope mod 16 this changes as I am not a fan of mod 15 at all.