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Cryptic now openly promoting the Meta?
lukejones77
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
I've been involved in a few threads about the state of class balance and the meta.
It's been fairly painful for non-meta classes since mod 12, I'm leaning strongly towards the Cryptic have been deliberately promoting and favouring the meta classes idea since mod 12, most likely to send players a signal that they can safely invest real money in certain classes for a nicely biased playing experience.
What really blows me away though, is the 3 classes they picked to showcase their official Ravenloft cinematic trailer. It's incredibly hard to try and believe that Cryptic are still trying for a balanced 3DPS/1 Tank/1 healer game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=69&v=HJEBJQU1Y_E
Can anyone pick the 3 classes taking onRavenloft?
It's been fairly painful for non-meta classes since mod 12, I'm leaning strongly towards the Cryptic have been deliberately promoting and favouring the meta classes idea since mod 12, most likely to send players a signal that they can safely invest real money in certain classes for a nicely biased playing experience.
What really blows me away though, is the 3 classes they picked to showcase their official Ravenloft cinematic trailer. It's incredibly hard to try and believe that Cryptic are still trying for a balanced 3DPS/1 Tank/1 healer game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=69&v=HJEBJQU1Y_E
Can anyone pick the 3 classes taking onRavenloft?
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Hello Vampire Hunter!
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
Every MMO needs a DPS class like the GWF - easy to play, doesn't die too easily, can get by smashing at-wills, gets invited to end game content etc etc. You need something for more casual and less skilled players. What Cryptic failed to do, was stop that easy path to acceptability rocketing through to dominance, especially at the hands of better players.
The GWF carries a lot of self-buffs, and when you stack all the others on top of it,the multiplicative and additive buffs lead to silly results, and silly amounts of compensating health on end-game bosses.
I actually created D&D software back in 3.5 that implemented this non-stacking rule (as per the rule books), and it's not hard to do. It does take a little longer to process your stats update loop, but it's not too bad, and not as bad as all the "special case" programming they've clearly done for various effects.
"Non-stacking benefits of the same type" not only lets you create classes that are easy starters without dominating in buff parties, it also helps you prevent support metas (which breaks 3DPS/1tank/1healer), by ensuring too many buffs are cancelling each other out. If you need to give a struggling class a party viability boost, give them a buff with a named type that nobody else has. Most of all - better Power Creep Control!
On the other hand, if the GWF is dominant by design, to give a clear dominating path for pay to win players, well.... nothing to be done.. It's already done.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
I mean Pathfinder Hunter Rangers have 2 Class Feat's practically USELESS and I consider that kind.
▪ Battlehoned: Gives +100 Regeneration per level or +400 Max?
╘ That seriously needs to be updated to +5% Regenerate per Level or 20% based on the BUFF value of the STAT.
▪ Cruel Recovery: Gives 1% Max Hitpoints when you deal Critical damage… Like OMG! Seriously 1%?
╘ How long is 1% going to last even if you had 175,000 HP that's maybe negating 1750 damage every 1-4s.
╘ That should be at least 2-3x that or 2-3% my goodness if not more.
▪ Crushing Roots: Weak Grasping Roots extended .125s per level or .5s at IV; Strong Grasping extended .25s or 1s.
╘ My goodness if they were actually Crushing they should enchance damage: 5% for Strong Roots, 2.5% for Weak:
♦ Contricting Arrow (Strong Grasping), Hindering Shot (Weak) two in Ranged
♦ Hindering Strike (Strong Grasping) one in Melee
♠ I mean even being a Trapper with Ancient roots that extends weak another 2.5s or strong by 5s.
╘ I've never seen roots weak or strong last longer than 2s despite they should be at least 3s or 6s total.
Still many classes have some weak or poor class abilities that almost make you ask why even bother; I'd love it they actually improved at least 1-2 class abilities similar to the ones identified above for a few other classes as well.
Still I've long wished they focus and finally address or improve Wizard's Feat's path more. So that Oppressor refocused once again on Control/Resisting, and returned Thaumaturge back to the Prime DPS Category regardless if Spellstorm or MoF, and even perhaps improved a Wizard's Renegade to BUFFS a little more. It also be nice if they extended the # of Arcane Stacks a Wizard could earn at maximum by 1 or 2.
"GWF is the class that overcompensating people who'll happily spend money to overcompensate even more have always gravitated to, so they make sure it does the most damage with the most survivability and the other DPS classes are barely functional, certainly not capable of carrying a less than patient party through any of the last few mods' endgame content."
In comparison to other Dps's GWF doesn't provide enough to the table over other choices. While it's still a viable choice, your better off taking a TR/GF/HR. As for previous content that's because people just want to get it over with... We've ran that content hundreds of times over, we just want the rewards and get outta there. A gwf doesn't have amazing survivability it's sub-par at best, lifesteal and health is the only thing going to save a Gwf in anything other than end-game. If the team isn't keeping the group well, then a gwf will drop just the same as anyone else in End-game. Every DPS class has some use except SW there buffers now.
"GWFs whining about PVE are pretty much equivalent to TRs and GFs whining about PVP. They've always been there, they'll always be there, and they can be sensibly ignored. GWF self-buffs by button-mashing. Missed your count of 20 stacks? No problem, you actually have effective at-wills that don't require anything close to sprite collision, so at 20 stacks you still did real damage. Run into a group of 10 mobs alone? No problem, the first time one breathes on you, it procs Unstoppable and all the buffs that come with it. Manage to get hurt anyway? No problem, you have perma-Sprint and can run away faster than their next attack animation. Need self-buffs? Awesome, all your animations are near-instantaneous and, as above, you buff just by button-mashing. But of course, oh, it's only the easiest to play at endgame level or the easiest to get there. What does that mean? Well, obviously, that the poster admitting it's easily the best DPS class while trying not to admit it. Any GWF who thinks that an HR at the same IL does the same DPS is obviously terrible at playing GWF."
Aye, every class has always been here, some introduced overtime but they all co-exist. As for Gwf's whining, I'm sorry but after reading this post isn't that what a lot of you are doing about CW...? The game Doesn't revolve around CW nor GWF it revolves around supports mostly which is understandable. A GWF brings a single buff to the table while others bring more buffs and more dmg or more damage outright if they know what they're doing... •-• The GWF class is a broken class in the since that it barely works, most other meta deeps are a lot more efficient vs. A gwf having to stack up its own buffs . As for sprint... It serves no difference in End-game vs any other class. Anyone can keep up with ya if there providing the right buffs. As for the mob thing that wouldn't happen in end-game a gwf would get one-shot. The group typically is right along with ya and if so then the group is vaperized by any dps in a hit or two. Most classes animation cancel that's normal... -3- A gwf is easy to get to a end-game State and that's because a gwf powers/feats/rotation/etc have been laid out for them forever whether they do well is dependent on group buffs and whether or not they activate there rotation at the right time just like anyother class. A HR shouldn't necessarily be on the same tier since what is provides to a group isn't just DPS. If all players knew what they were doing a GWF would land at around 4th for Deeps choice.
"@lukejones77 I'll agree with you that unstoppable for GWF seems unfair compared to how much damage they do, and yes the determination meter fills up stupidly fast in epic content (one or two hits given/received?) to the point that GWF's are probably unstoppable for 90% of combat time (I don't play GWF in epic content usually), but if you are in a decent powershare party with an ACDC and people running Shepherds' Devotion you end up with pretty much the same results for all party members. I'm not trying to encourage the conversation in that direction I just thought I should point that out since I don't think it's been mentioned yet in any replies."
If a GWF didn't have consistent Unstoppable the class would be next to useless, since it'd be a massive dmg loss due to lacking destroyer stacks and Destroyer purpose stacks and make it the literal worse and most pointless class... •^•
"there its only 1 tank in this game and that tank its paladin GF its buffer in this mod not tank anymore GWF its dps -SW buffer -DC buff+heal - hR its nothing - TR its nothing - CW its dust left behind heroes noticed before"
... Watch the video above does that change your view?
"Yea I admit I have a GWF and Hunter Ranger as well; yet despite my Hunter being almost 2-3k higher than my GWF I'm often surprised how quickly the GWF clean up. While I don't think a Hunter Ranger is horrible by any means, they are certainly no where close to the Dominant DPS Class; I'd welcome it if they 'slightly' reduced GWF damage 'a little' to buff Hunter Ranger's more; perhaps even improve Wizard's making them relevant again.
I mean Pathfinder Hunter Rangers have 2 Class Feat's practically USELESS and I consider that kind.
▪ Battlehoned: Gives +100 Regeneration per level or +400 Max?
╘ That seriously needs to be updated to +5% Regenerate per Level or 20% based on the BUFF value of the STAT.
▪ Cruel Recovery: Gives 1% Max Hitpoints when you deal Critical damage… Like OMG! Seriously 1%?
╘ How long is 1% going to last even if you had 175,000 HP that's maybe negating 1750 damage every 1-4s.
╘ That should be at least 2-3x that or 2-3% my goodness if not more.
▪ Crushing Roots: Weak Grasping Roots extended .125s per level or .5s at IV; Strong Grasping extended .25s or 1s.
╘ My goodness if they were actually Crushing they should enchance damage: 5% for Strong Roots, 2.5% for Weak:
♦ Contricting Arrow (Strong Grasping), Hindering Shot (Weak) two in Ranged
♦ Hindering Strike (Strong Grasping) one in Melee
♠ I mean even being a Trapper with Ancient roots that extends weak another 2.5s or strong by 5s.
╘ I've never seen roots weak or strong last longer than 2s despite they should be at least 3s or 6s total.
Still many classes have some weak or poor class abilities that almost make you ask why even bother; I once posted several for HR & Wizards.
Still I've long wished they focus and finally address or improve Wizard's Feat's path more. So that Oppressor refocused once again on Control/Resisting, and returned Thaumaturge back to the Prime DPS Category regardless if Spellstorm or MoF, and even perhaps improved a Wizard's Renegade to BUFFS a little more. It also be nice if they extended the # of Arcane Stacks a Wizard could earn at maximum by 1 or 2."
Here's all the Gwf's useless feats. (All the ones blacked out) •^• As I've already stated if they lowered the gwf's dmg more than its current state then it wouldn't compete in any form... The reason why you'd see a GWF typically in front it due to those self buffs bringing them a bit ahead of others prior to group buffs, while if group buffs come in and the group focuses on any of their main dps will get a similar result.
In the end the only two dps's that should be ahead of the bunch are TR/GWF if this was a perfect game since that's there main focus. While SW/HR/GF/ and CW especially provide a decent amount of buffs along with deeps...
farahead of the other dps classes.Every dps class rework/buff hinders the warrior more and more. And that's not going to stop.
...and what appears to be a human Monk.
But I see most of your FOCUS shifted to talking about FEATS path in how you choose to respond to my comments. I will completely agree with you there - cause GWF really have one true FEAT PATH & PARAGON that >90% of player's only EXCLUSIVELY use. Those that don't will likely learn over the next year why they should be running it almost exclusively. So I do agree some improvements could be made to GWF as well; especially in what other Paragon's or Feat Paths offer as well.
While GWF aren't the only one in that position either, they represent the worse choice of options! Honestly I suspect many would welcome if they improved a few other paragon's for several classes, or also improved some feats in less dominate tree's as well. Sometimes a series of subtle improvements when combined can make an old FEAT path viable again.
Much more attention to be given to improving some older Path's, Class Powers, & Paragon's at least a little to providing us more viable options again for sure!
Commenting that specific part of your post by asking you a question: what "decent amount of buffs" does a Soulbinder Fury warlock bring to the team that can in any way, shape or form compete with the party utility of other classes including gwf? SB fury does both less damage than other classes (played properly, that is) and, wth the exception of TR, other classes literary bring buffs to the table. How is that balanced?
By your logic it should then be TR > SB fury SW> the rest
Stat counting has shown this again, and again, and again.
IF the support isn't elite/optimal, everyone knows to grab a GWF as the DPS.
People can have opinions and expand on their their theory crafting ideas with feats, powers and numbers, but it's the actual results they do the real talking.
Difficult to line up the opinions against empirical facts here.
I totally agree that cruel recovery is an underperform class feat. IMO 5% is more appropriate.
Back to the topic, I don't understand why would developer encourage class imbalance. If they are meant to gain player investment on the fotm/meta class, they lost even more like the other non fotm/meta player base. Its unhealthy towards the game. Fotm/meta player will continue to support the game but u are giving the chance for non fotm player to quit the game. That's why class balance is so much important to make each class viable to play so player would continue to invest on the class they like to play.
Let me share my experience with NWO. I, myself played archery HR. But since mod 6 its been falling off quite abit. Being a 14k and getting outdpsed by 11-12k player clearly make me question on my investment on my character. Eventually my HR no longer able to play in latest content except if I change it to combat or trapper spec which I don't like. So the only thing that keep me ingame is through PUG which does not work either. Its been 2 mod since TONG is introduced and I cant even pug pass orcus. Finally it left me with no reason to play anymore and turn my gaze to Dungeons and dragons online.
DDO is so much better. Class balance is not the issue there as it has so many option to build my class that i can built anything and it still turn out viable. I can be a 2hdweapon swinging battle cleric or a shield wielding tanking warlock or a CC tanking druid class. I can even be a bow wielding elven cleric which fit the theme as a priest of Selune (Well except DDO is based on Eberon world so maybe priest of the silver flame? ). There are so many things to build with multiclassing and cross feat as the catalyst. Community there are much more friendly. They never kick player off the party except like some rare afk cases or u really pissed off someone which happen 1 out of 100. Also I can play the dungeon anytime I want. No queuing no waiting. I just put up lfm and enter the dungeon while waiting for player to join or I could choose to solo it myself. There are also casual, normal, hard, elite and reaper difficulty to pick. We dont get force into playing certain dungeon with certain difficulty. There are trap in the dungeon which makes rogue so much viable. I can choose play it tactically with stealth or just hack through everything in my path. The only thing that DDO lose out to NWO are cosmetic and 3D model. DDO model are still quite blockish even its graphic has been upgraded to the latest. But that's just graphic which I don't mind. I prefer gameplay over it. Other than that DDO just feel so much better than NWO in so many level. Everything just feels right in DDO while a lot of things feels wrong in NWO.
From what I see, the developer in DDO takes class balance as a foundation. They polished it and polish it till it feels real alright. For example if u gonna play a CC class, u wont be having dps. If u wanna focus on fire magic, u wont be effective in a carven full of fire elemental. If u a great with death magic, u wont be great with undead, instead clerics are really good with undead. Once the class balance is strong, only will they introduce new class & dungeons. They always revisit class balance every time they release new dungeon and content. Given a good foundation, they are able to dedicate themselves in making more dungeon. Whenever there is a bug, they are quick to resolve it. They usually takes like a week after someone reported it. That's is enough for me to have confidence in the game future. Anything they cant resolve is shared through their livestream which their community manager does every week. That's where things like bug and class balance is discuss. The bonding between the developer and the community is strong.
Anyway, not trying bash this game or promote other game in this forum but trying to share with u developer so u guys could improve ur game. Sometime u have to makes some survey on other game to further understand the correct direction to focus on.