OFFICIAL FEEDBACK THREAD: New Mounts in M14!

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  • lowjohn
    lowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    nl54#3191 said:

    Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.

    Well, there's the rub. Now people aren't going to want it if it has no advantage over the other legendary mounts. Most people don't care about the passive life steal severity. Nobody in their right mind is gonna pay 10 mill ad or open hundreds of lockboxes for what amounts to a fashion item.
    Not all mounts *need* to be 12Mil+ BIS items. It's actually good for the game to have some Legendary packs be decent-but-not-amazing while the lesser rewards are good, and others to have a BIS top-tier Legendary with a few slightly LUTEFISK lower-level lessers.
  • nl54#3191
    nl54#3191 Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    Not all mounts *need* to be 12Mil+ BIS items. It's actually good for the game to have some Legendary packs be decent-but-not-amazing while the lesser rewards are good, and others to have a BIS top-tier Legendary with a few slightly LUTEFISK lower-level lessers.

    I never said that they "needed" to be anything, but even the crappiest legendary has a price tag of 8 mill+. Just the way it is.

    Ninurta - 16.1k Half-Orc GWF

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  • spidey#3367
    spidey#3367 Member Posts: 400 Arc User

    We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    Thx a lot for removing. So i dont have to spend any ZEN. Great ^^
  • skias#5665
    skias#5665 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    Was in test server last night and a guildie of mine had the Bat Swarm mount. When she dismounted she was invisible.



    One of the Devs gave me the Mount yesterday evening so i could test a bit around. From what i see you got invisible after using the flourish of the mount.

    The Bat Swarm Mount expands and tightens formation and then explodes outward. Afterward, the bats come back together to reform.


    After the animation i got invisible until i move.

    Edit: Didnt read the whole Thread, so it got already reportet sry
    Post edited by skias#5665 on
  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    Yeah, I don't see why ANYONE would use this because it's a 10% single target debuff, while rex does the same in an AoE and can also eat a trash mob.

    I genuinely don't see why you'd make an inferior mount power to something already released.
  • agilesto
    agilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:

    Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.

    Well, there's the rub. Now people aren't going to want it if it has no advantage over the other legendary mounts. Most people don't care about the passive life steal severity. Nobody in their right mind is gonna pay 10 mill ad or open hundreds of lockboxes for what amounts to a fashion item.

    Oh I did spend 20 millions on a Champion's Armored Bulette, purely for fashion considering its useless passive/active for a GWF.
  • vordayn
    vordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    Yeah, I don't see why ANYONE would use this because it's a 10% single target debuff, while rex does the same in an AoE and can also eat a trash mob.

    I genuinely don't see why you'd make an inferior mount power to something already released.

    That's where it's at these days: single target takedowns. Gone were the days when controlling mobs was important. Hence the superiority of classes that CAN do a lot of single target damage.

    Of course though, the removal of the 10% damage buff takes this away from BiS PvE to almost a curiosity now. It isn't BiS in PvP either (never was), except maybe for certain builds.

    The demand for this has plummeted from 100% BiS in PvE to, "eh, I'll take it if I don't have anything better", or, "I just want it for its looks". A 5% damage buff may still have made it a contender for BiS in PvE, depending on the player's stat distribution, and wouldn't have dropped interest in this so dramatically.

    But the nerf hammer hits hard - even though this wasn't officially released yet. But it looks like it will be semi-dead in the water, just like Atropal.
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  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    vordayn said:

    Yeah, I don't see why ANYONE would use this because it's a 10% single target debuff, while rex does the same in an AoE and can also eat a trash mob.

    I genuinely don't see why you'd make an inferior mount power to something already released.

    That's where it's at these days: single target takedowns. Gone were the days when controlling mobs was important. Hence the superiority of classes that CAN do a lot of single target damage.

    Of course though, the removal of the 10% damage buff takes this away from BiS PvE to almost a curiosity now. It isn't BiS in PvP either (never was), except maybe for certain builds.

    The demand for this has plummeted from 100% BiS in PvE to, "eh, I'll take it if I don't have anything better", or, "I just want it for its looks". A 5% damage buff may still have made it a contender with BiS in PvE, depending on the player's stat distribution, and wouldn't have dropped interest in this so dramatically.

    But the nerf hammer hits hard - even though this wasn't officially released yet. But it looks like it will be semi-dead in the water, just like Atropal.
    The issue that we have here isn't as much being BiS as redundancy. You already have something that does its job better, has better stats, and looks pretty cool too. There is NOTHING appealing to me as someone who mains a DPS and a support.
    It went from "I really, REALLY want it on my GWF to replace my clunky tenser" to "Eww keep it away from me".

    It seems that this whole mod has that issue. The new hunt gear is mediocre, the new armor sets are still inferior to the Orcus set (very much so), and now this too? Killing it before it even started.
  • vordayn
    vordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.

    Feedback: A 5% damage buff may still make it a contender for BiS in PvE without completely dominating, depending on the player's stat distribution, and won't drop interest in this so dramatically.

    At around %5 damage buff, it won't replace Tenser's for personal damage. The debuff would need to be decreased if the damage buff was re-added, to maybe 8% if you wanted to keep the Tyrannosaurus still BiS for end-game parties. If the debuff were kept at 10% with the damage buff, it would be a little too good, and would likely be BiS for the DPS in the end-game party, and optional for other members in that party (taking into account costs to acquire). The Tyrannosaurus would still retain a 10% AoE debuff (so may still have superiority in certain fights), and the eating of minions, which presents greater options to those seeking their first or subsequent legendary mount.
    Post edited by vordayn on
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  • eclipseblood#1326
    eclipseblood#1326 Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    I personally think that the debuff should be removed instead and the damage buff stays, atm rex is an aoe debuff and eats souls while bat swarm is a single target debuff the equip power isnt much to look at and decreased damage is nice but not really needed unless u play pvp. It will give more diversity for dps to have a straight damage boost and be a more appealing box to open otherwise the rex will simply outperform the new legendary mount
  • vordayn
    vordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    I personally think that the debuff should be removed instead and the damage buff stays, atm rex is an aoe debuff and eats souls while bat swarm is a single target debuff the equip power isnt much to look at and decreased damage is nice but not really needed unless u play pvp. It will give more diversity for dps to have a straight damage boost and be a more appealing box to open otherwise the rex will simply outperform the new legendary mount

    If so, it will replace Tenser's as personal DPS BiS.

    Removing the other features takes away build variation, more so in PvP. It would only make it a personal DPS BiS required mount, as opposed to something supports can also use, taking away diversity.
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  • isaacorion#1994
    isaacorion#1994 Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    I'd agree something needs to be pulled from the Bat Swarm combat power. It was a lot to have in a power.
    Though I'd think it'd do better with a sort of reimagine to solidify it as either a personal buff or heavy debuff instead of trying to play both sides at once.
    Like, for personal buff, keep the 10% dmg gain and CC escape, maybe add AP Gain or dmg resist and scrap the debuff parts of it. Or for heavy debuff scrap the 10% dmg gain and CC escape, and then consider adding another debuff or upping the severity of existing ones.
    Just my 2 copper, Visually I think the new mounts are awesome and can't wait to get Mist Form for my 3 mains.
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  • rubytrue
    rubytrue Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    I would recommend keeping both the +damage buff & +debuff, but halve both of them. That way it is different from any other mount power bonus, but still really captures the vampire-esque feel of the player becoming more empowered while draining the life force from a foe without making it automatically BiS.
  • lowjohn
    lowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:


    I never said that they "needed" to be anything, but even the crappiest legendary has a price tag of 8 mill+. Just the way it is.

    Uh, you can regularly find Stags and Carpets for 5.

    And even if you were right, there's a huge difference between 8 million for a Legendary Carpet and 12 million for a T-Rex.
  • nunya#5309
    nunya#5309 Member Posts: 933 Arc User
    vordayn said:


    But the nerf hammer hits hard - even though this wasn't officially released yet. But it looks like it will be semi-dead in the water, just like Atropal.

    Cool with me. That means I might finally be able to afford a legendary mount in the near future. Plus, I only wanted it for its looks. If it had a cool combat power, that's a bonus. I mean, I already don't have a combat power and I'm getting by for now, which just means I don't take combat power much into account. The life steal severity will be nice for my SW when he's running in Temptation, though.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    vordayn said:


    But the nerf hammer hits hard - even though this wasn't officially released yet. But it looks like it will be semi-dead in the water, just like Atropal.

    Cool with me. That means I might finally be able to afford a legendary mount in the near future. Plus, I only wanted it for its looks. If it had a cool combat power, that's a bonus. I mean, I already don't have a combat power and I'm getting by for now, which just means I don't take combat power much into account. The life steal severity will be nice for my SW when he's running in Temptation, though.
    Buy a carpet. It will definitely be cheaper than the Swarm in any case. There ya go. A legendary. What else do you want? I'd rather have something useful cost 10 mil with the looks as a bonus, rather than just looking good and not being very useful.
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    > @noworries#8859 said:

    > Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    >

    > We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.



    @noworries#8859



    Even if you remove the 10% damage buff and with that reduced duration vs players, it will still be one of the most toxic things ever getting into pvp, when I saw someone talking about I thought it was a very, very bad joke.



    You guys already know that for example drains caused a lot of balance issues in pvp and dedicated players complained about them for entire modules, so, why giving a mount the ability to further mess pvpers up? Pvp is already a total mess with the items that already exist and that mount power will only worsen that big time.



    Simply put, that mount is obscenely overpowered and an incredibly cancerous thing to get into pvp.



    To keep it as something BiS for pve players that happen to be damage dealers (so this mount is something they look forward to in mod 14) and something of interest for pvpers without making that game mode more of a mess, I suggest you keep the 10% personal damage bonus and either remove everything else or perhaps make the player move 10% faster but that's it, in all seriousness, giving more benefits than that is beyond a joke from a balance perspective.

    Calm down on the PVP front. The bat swarm is not even the BIS choice for PVP, the golden lion mount still takes that crown. This means that although the lion isn't great for PVP's health, nothing is getting worse in PVP from introducing the bat swarm mount. The bat swarm power is 5 seconds in PVP and will be usuable once a minute so the 10% slow, 10% debuff, 10% reduction to AP gain, ect will only last 5 seconds. Even if you take into account entire teams that own one and try to coorninate them, you should still get more OPness out of 5X coordinated lions than 5X coordinated swarms or a mix of coordinated lions and swarms.

    The swarm power is also nowhere near as powerful as the old versions of AP drains and stamina drains you are comparing it to. They basically were active against your target almost 24/7 and effectivly wiped out all of your target's stamina and AP for the duration of the fight.

    I'm not particularly opposed to removing the PVP oriented parts of the bat swarm but doing so isn't going to change the situation in PVP much if at all.
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  • arcanjo86
    arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,092 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 have you guys thought about adding 50% lifesteal chance
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.

    I'd honestly rather you didn't nerf the bat swarm mount. Its got a less clunky faster activation time than the tenser's floating disk and a lot of dpsers would prefer working with a combat power with a less clunky animation. A lot of people I've talked to seemed really excited about this new power and the discord servers I'm on have also been discussing it a lot. From what I understand, the swarm will fall behind both the legendary tyrannosaur and the tenser's floating disk if you remove the dps buff.
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  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.

    I'd honestly rather you didn't nerf the bat swarm mount. Its got a less clunky faster activation time than the tenser's floating disk and a lot of dpsers would prefer working with a combat power with a less clunky animation. A lot of people I've talked to seemed really excited about this new power and the discord servers I'm on have also been discussing it a lot. From what I understand, the swarm will fall behind both the legendary tyrannosaur and the tenser's floating disk if you remove the dps buff.
    Yup. It's inferior to both. It doesn't have the AoE effect of Rex, nor the DPS buff of Tenser.
  • eclipseblood#1326
    eclipseblood#1326 Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    > @vordayn said:
    > I personally think that the debuff should be removed instead and the damage buff stays, atm rex is an aoe debuff and eats souls while bat swarm is a single target debuff the equip power isnt much to look at and decreased damage is nice but not really needed unless u play pvp. It will give more diversity for dps to have a straight damage boost and be a more appealing box to open otherwise the rex will simply outperform the new legendary mount
    >
    > If so, it will replace Tenser's as personal DPS BiS.
    >
    > Removing the other features takes away build variation, more so in PvP. It would only make it a personal DPS BiS required mount, as opposed to something supports can also use, taking away diversity.

    Well the animation for tensers takes 2 sec or so to finish so if u dont like the tensers animation the bat swarm is a good alternative, also tensers is a self buff so no chance to miss when theres adds while the bat swarm is single target. Tensers also doesnt work for everyone, cw for instance dont get intelligence boosts so no extra damage aside from power. With the debuff instead of damage buff the rex will outshine it. Support classes will more than likely use the rex for the aoe debuff on mobs/bosses anyways, dps will have another option other than the disk with the bats and it works for all of them, i would prefer not to have this mount be another expensive skin like the stag. Unless ur really into lifesteal severity :wink:
  • jaime4312#3760
    jaime4312#3760 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    > @noworries#8859 said:
    > Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.
    >
    > We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.
    >
    > I'd honestly rather you didn't nerf the bat swarm mount. Its got a less clunky faster activation time than the tenser's floating disk and a lot of dpsers would prefer working with a combat power with a less clunky animation. A lot of people I've talked to seemed really excited about this new power and the discord servers I'm on have also been discussing it a lot. From what I understand, the swarm will fall behind both the legendary tyrannosaur and the tenser's floating disk if you remove the dps buff.
    >
    > It is a semantics point, but it does seem inaccurate to call something a nerf when it is a change to something that isn't in game yet. The reason we have a preview server is to adjust/fix things before they are live so they go out in a better state.
    >
    > That said, some change is necessary on this power as the feedback universally was the way it had been was absolutely the bis for everyone and that feedback is valid and correct.
    >
    > A different option is to leave the damage boost on there, but change all of the values to 5% instead of 10%.

    Even then it would still be hilariously overpowered, imo, 10% personal damage buff and 5% team-wide debuff is more than enough to justify getting it for a dps character, anything more than that is just way too much.

    You should at least remove the AP debuff on players, it is already a cc breaker and able to slow down players, it's quite over the top.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.

    I'd honestly rather you didn't nerf the bat swarm mount. Its got a less clunky faster activation time than the tenser's floating disk and a lot of dpsers would prefer working with a combat power with a less clunky animation. A lot of people I've talked to seemed really excited about this new power and the discord servers I'm on have also been discussing it a lot. From what I understand, the swarm will fall behind both the legendary tyrannosaur and the tenser's floating disk if you remove the dps buff.
    It is a semantics point, but it does seem inaccurate to call something a nerf when it is a change to something that isn't in game yet. The reason we have a preview server is to adjust/fix things before they are live so they go out in a better state.

    That said, some change is necessary on this power as the feedback universally was the way it had been was absolutely the bis for everyone and that feedback is valid and correct.

    A different option is to leave the damage boost on there, but change all of the values to 5% instead of 10%.
    Or keep the DPS bonus as it is and drop the debuff? I honestly doubt we need even more debuff mounts.
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    Given the feedback on the Bat Swarm power here and on other forums/sites. We are going to look into removing the 10% damage boost to yourself and leave all of the debuffs in place.

    We certainly want the power to be a good choice for players but not the be all end all power that everyone feels they must have.

    I'd honestly rather you didn't nerf the bat swarm mount. Its got a less clunky faster activation time than the tenser's floating disk and a lot of dpsers would prefer working with a combat power with a less clunky animation. A lot of people I've talked to seemed really excited about this new power and the discord servers I'm on have also been discussing it a lot. From what I understand, the swarm will fall behind both the legendary tyrannosaur and the tenser's floating disk if you remove the dps buff.
    It is a semantics point, but it does seem inaccurate to call something a nerf when it is a change to something that isn't in game yet. The reason we have a preview server is to adjust/fix things before they are live so they go out in a better state.

    That said, some change is necessary on this power as the feedback universally was the way it had been was absolutely the bis for everyone and that feedback is valid and correct.

    A different option is to leave the damage boost on there, but change all of the values to 5% instead of 10%.
    Changing all values to 5% but leaving the self damage boost on there is better than the first sugestion of stripping off the self buff entirely but does still have some issues. Even with 5% damage buff, its likely that tenser's disk will still be better and the tyrannosaur will also still be better.

    If you are worried about it being best in slot for litterally everyone, it may not be for suport classes/non dps builds. Its well known at this point that the debuff is single target but I've received no word on whether or not the debuffs on this mount can stack with other people's copies of this mount. If they don't stack with other copies of this mount and are single target, then this mount probably isn't best in slot for support builds.

    If you want to make absolutely sure that this mount is not a universal best in slot, my sugestion is to remove the debuffs that say "the target takes 10% more damage and deals 10% less damage. Leave the 10% personal damage buff in since that will mean that dps classes can now switch from tenser's to bat swarm and enjoy the faster activation power they were excited about.

    This suggestion of mine should make it so the legendary tyrannosaur and swift golden lion will be BIS support build mounts and the bat swarm will be the BIS personal dps mount and soloing mount. The tenser's disk will still be a solid second best choice for personal dps and soloing. The legendary tyrannosaur will still be useful situationally for dps classes as well, such as for certain endgame dungeons like TONG where it can eat important mobs (souls for example).
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • eion311
    eion311 Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    agilesto said:


    Oh I did spend 20 millions on a Champion's Armored Bulette, purely for fashion considering its useless passive/active for a GWF.

    A mount that is STILL bugged since Feb 24th! been almost 3 months now and it's bugged small size has not been fixed.
  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    eion311 said:

    agilesto said:


    Oh I did spend 20 millions on a Champion's Armored Bulette, purely for fashion considering its useless passive/active for a GWF.

    A mount that is STILL bugged since Feb 24th! been almost 3 months now and it's bugged small size has not been fixed.
    I also own a champion's armored bulette. They did increase the size after it got shrunk again, its no longer pony sized but it still seems to be smaller than it was when it was released. Honestly, if they want to end the complaints they could just increase it to a similar size as the triceratops mount. I'm wondering if they lost the old size formula for the champion's armored bulette and improvised with their best guess the last time they tried to fix it.
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  • vordayn
    vordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited May 2018


    If you want to make absolutely sure that this mount is not a universal best in slot, my sugestion is to remove the debuffs that say "the target takes 10% more damage and deals 10% less damage. Leave the 10% personal damage buff in since that will mean that dps classes can now switch from tenser's to bat swarm and enjoy the faster activation power they were excited about.

    This just makes it a BiS DPS mount, and replaces Tensor's (as you mentioned Tensor's is already clunky and not attractive to classes without STR/DEX as primaries), plus removing any other variation.
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  • trgluestickz
    trgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    vordayn said:


    If you want to make absolutely sure that this mount is not a universal best in slot, my sugestion is to remove the debuffs that say "the target takes 10% more damage and deals 10% less damage. Leave the 10% personal damage buff in since that will mean that dps classes can now switch from tenser's to bat swarm and enjoy the faster activation power they were excited about.

    This just makes it a BiS DPS mount, and replaces Tensor's (as you mentioned Tensor's is already clunky and not attractive to classes without STR/DEX as primaries), plus removing any other variation.
    I'm not entirely sure what your point is here, I stated already that my sugestion would make the swarm a BIS mount for dps builds.

    The BIS mount combat powers right now are tyrannosaur for debuffs and eating special mechanic mobs, tenser's disk for dps builds, lion for group protecton/self protection. The sugestion I made would only change which mount is BIS for dps, not the number of BIS options so if your point was that this would somehow reduce variation it wouldn't.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • vordayn
    vordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    vordayn said:


    If you want to make absolutely sure that this mount is not a universal best in slot, my sugestion is to remove the debuffs that say "the target takes 10% more damage and deals 10% less damage. Leave the 10% personal damage buff in since that will mean that dps classes can now switch from tenser's to bat swarm and enjoy the faster activation power they were excited about.

    This just makes it a BiS DPS mount, and replaces Tensor's (as you mentioned Tensor's is already clunky and not attractive to classes without STR/DEX as primaries), plus removing any other variation.
    I'm not entirely sure what your point is here, I stated already that my sugestion would make the swarm a BIS mount for dps builds.

    The BIS mount combat powers right now are tyrannosaur for debuffs and eating special mechanic mobs, tenser's disk for dps builds, lion for group protecton/self protection. The sugestion I made would only change which mount is BIS for dps, not the number of BIS options so if your point was that this would somehow reduce variation it wouldn't.
    By making it only 10% damage buff flat (even without any of the debuffs), it is making it better than Tenser's (unless you can reach a certain threshold for power), and BiS for every DPS class. But then that's all it would be good for.

    Taking away the debuffs reduces alternative classes besides DPS from choosing this. Considering DPS in 5-person end-game party are usually only 1 or 2 members, you are affecting a lot of support classes from benefitting from this by taking away any meaningful debuff capability.

    A partial buff/debuff capability (not 10/10%, but maybe half, or a little bit more e.g. 5%/8% or 8%/8%) could still make it attractive to both DPS (because it is faster to activate vs Tenser's, doesn't rely on power increase or on DEX/STR, and still provide some group utility), and Support (if it retains some meaningful debuff i.e. increase to damage taken; I still think 5% debuff is too low, as it is for single targets already, so I probably won't choose it for support over a Tyrannosaurus), without it automatically replacing either Tenser's or Tyrannosaurus for pure DPS or Debuffing specs respectively.

    For example (if this is how Tenser's work currently, and using the functions here, thank you Janne!) if you have 120,000 power, activating Tenser's adds 10% power, for a damage increase of 7.5%. For some classes with STR/DEX which increase damage you also get +2% damage for a total of 9.5% (only for HR/TR/GF/GWF).

    With Bat Swarm, at 5% damage buff, for pure DPS it still wouldn't beat Tenser's, but at 10% it will, no doubt for personal damage. But, if it retains some debuffing then you can add some group wide utility and could rival Tenser's depending on what the party composition is. If for example current debuffs were at 250%, and you activated it, a 5% debuff would add 0.73% increased damage for the party. At an 8% debuff, you would add 1.17% damage to the party. Probably still not as useful if you were the primary DPS and contributing the largest portion of damage, but it gets better the more that other players contribute damage as a percentage, and in larger instances (say 10-man instances). Plus as you said, the Swarm is already better in terms of handling - it isn't clunky (I haven't tested it out yet), but if it activates instantly without a delay it would help in rotations and speed of damage delivered when buff timing is essential.

    If it still had a mix of buff/debuff, then DPS, hybrid support and some pure support classes (which don't have a T-Rex) could consider it. Maybe an 8% buff / 8% debuff would make it worthwhile for pure DPS over a Tenser's? Funny, how we are looking at what is probably a 1-4% improvement in damage with Legendary Mounts. If they can get it right, the demand for this could be good, and will determine whether price for this in the AH is from 5 to 12+ mil ..

    Whatever happens, adding a bit of damage back would make it more attractive than nothing, but adding only damage back and taking away the other debuffs would make it only attractive to DPS, hence no variation in those who would choose it (I probably used the wrong word variation here, but I hope you get what I mean).

    Post edited by vordayn on
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