kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited January 2018
@demonmonger so which other classes have a propensity/ability to kill steal then aside from Tr ? cw hr sw gwf pally ???..which classes cant kill steal then ??? that means taking leader board stats into account they are doing even worse then perceived by that logic/ line of thinking and need even more of a buff how come other classes that "kill steal" are not doing as well then in k/d ratios
I already mentioned stuns/ pants / rings and multiple ways to reveal a tr in multiple threads already you are preaching to the pope there
is there a difference between kill stealing due to burst/ timing / deliberately waiting strategically and/ or kill stealing due to the natures of dot damage delivery / proper rotations ?
recommending broken mechanics to deal with broken mechanics ...tr are mad there ever were stealth rings ( that mimics thier class feature or reveals rings.... how many other rings in the game mimic entire class feature powers with no investment
discussing a classes perceived overpowered offensibility is different then its defensibility . declaring that Tr can kill steal as a possible reason for k?d on the leader board is only one side of the coin the other its hardness to target and kill (by players refusing to use broken rings/ items to deal with that also that being thier other moral dilemma )
can not any player using an invisible ring/ armor enchant be "kill stealing" and skewing results
There are guilds hypocritically declaring and forbidding the use of certains items and/or player being frowned upon/ looked down on for using them / policing themselves with their own moral compass .. or the devs refusing tho fix certain broken items and players declaring the working as intended moto
by the way personally i think tr have an artificially lower death ratio more because they are running away and disengaging then due to extreme defensive mechanics that are couterable by rings when they are caught and they will/ should try to avoid those players that are using them
Post edited by kalina311 on
3
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
@demonmonger so which other classes have a propensity/ability to kill steal then aside from Tr ? cw hr sw gwf pally ???..which classes cant kill steal then ??? that means taking leader board stats into account they are doing even worse then perceived by that logic/ line of thinking and need even more of a buff how come other classes that "kill steal" are not doing as well then in k/d ratios
I already mentioned stuns/ pants / rings and multiple ways to reveal a tr in multiple threads already you are preaching to the pope there
is there a difference between kill stealing due to burst/ timing / deliberately waiting strategically and/ or kill stealing due to the natures of dot damage delivery / proper rotations ?
recommending broken mechanics to deal with broken mechanics ...tr are mad there ever were stealth rings ( that mimics thier class feature or reveals rings.... how many other rings in the game mimic entire class feature powers with no investment
discussing a classes perceived overpowered offensibility is different then its defensibility . declaring that Tr can kill steal as a possible reason for k?d on the leader board is only one side of the coin the other its hardness to target and kill (by players refusing to use broken rings/ items to deal with that also that being thier other moral dilemma )
can not any player using an invisible ring/ armor enchant be "kill stealing" and skewing results
There are guilds hypocritically declaring and forbidding the use of certains items and/or player being frowned upon/ looked down on for using them / policing themselves with their own moral compass .. or the devs refusing tho fix certain broken items and players declaring the working as intended moto
by the way personally i think tr have an artificially lower death ratio more because they are running away and disengaging then due to extreme defensive mechanics that are couterable by rings when they are caught and they will/ should try to avoid those players that are using them
i agree.
tr can ks more easily than all except maybe archer
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all this talk of GFs being the issue is absurd. Im a "squishy" CW yet it is not possible to one rotate me. Ive gone 1v1 vs some of the "so-called" best GFs on PS4. Their rotation doesnt drop me below 80% and then without even using a potion/lion/artifact i heal back up. I have killed GFs with ease this mod. it sounds like theres a build and/or gear issue to be complaining about GFs. The shield also doesnt matter as a fully charged storm pillar hits them from behind briefly interrupting shielding. GFs are strong but hardly an issue and not broken.
The issue at hand is the deflection. Give all characters equal deflect stats if thats what they desire, or reduce to TR to what everyone else has. At the end of the day everything can be solved if the devs either make it so skills work differently in pvp vs pve (class rework) or remove pvp altogether if they refuse to allow for balance/always allow 1-2 classes to be broken.
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If you study the leaderboard posted by @macjae and reading all the threads - where are the overpowered OP's on the leaderboard? Question concerning the GWF with the 43 ratio - is he that certain GWF, sitting at the campfire for a whole match when "uncomfortable" opponents show up that could ruin his score.....I would not count that into the ratio table - but I have to give it to him, unlike me he knows which fights to pick.
Post edited by demolitioninc#2453 on
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> @demonmonger said: > > @kalina311 said: > > > @marnival said: > > > > > > @marnival said: > > > > > > > > > > > Lol if anyone can resonably explain why rogues are more "unkillable" than a perma shield GF maybe this thread would have some merit. If rogues are tanky then im arnold schwarneggar. Hint, i'm not arnold schwarneggar. Anyone who has actually played as a rogue will tell you ITC got nerfed to hell. Itc + stealth was ruined a long time ago plus can no longer activate while dodging. Why don't you guys start by telling me what rogues are actually allowed to have? Lol. Can we have any at wills? I'm guessing the majority of you have a problem with duelist flurry as well lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Press L take up leaderboard Press KILLS study the Tr kill ratio end of discussion mkay. > > > > > > > > > > > You are clearly as clueless as it is possible to be... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say while not addressing a single point i made. Who's the clueless one? If you add nothing to the conversation then don't join in. K? > > > > > > > > > > So pressing L is to much for you ? Do your homework its long overdue mkay. If you cant figure out whey Tr die 1/10 of all other classes in pvp and kill 3 times as much you have NOT done your homework simple as that.... > > > > > > > > Lol and still not adressed anything i said. Time wasters arent worth bothering with. Have fun with your nonsense. > > > > @mikal#9243 > > > > whether he listened to you or not / waitsted thread time or not moot point... my turn then > > > > How are these leader board top tr achieving the kills deaths ratios he is describing despite the Tr powers you yourself listed as being nerfed/ ruined? ..just how are they doing it then ? riddle me that . > > Many try kills come from kill stealing from other players. Shadow of demise might finish someone off, or a saboteur might throw the last dagger that finishes a fleeing opponent. > I hear many people telling how vulnerable trs are when stunned. Guess what, it's true. > > All you need to kill a tr even as a mediocre player = sandys assault pants, ring of curse bringer. > > Trans thunderhead, can help also (stuns when they critical you) > > Add in a ring of vanishing presence or ring of ambush and tr''s will hate you. >
The reason i call it time wasting is because anybody can describe lobbies where rogues run rampant and get like 39485 kills with 0 deaths. Screenshots? Video? Proof? It takes a hell of a lot of work and time invested (diamonds spent) to build a good rogue. But also if you know what you are doing, even the good ones can be neautralised.
Also pvp is a competitive player vs player environment. Should people not spec to their own advantage? Rogues have pathetic defense so stacking def enchants in pointless. Since we start with a deflect stat it makes sense to build on that. Their are guides littering youtube right now that show virtually every class can do the same. +4000 deflect mount, stack deflect enchant in all slots, sigil of the trickster. If it apparently makes you so god like then why don't you just join the party? Then when you are all apparently invincible maybe the devs will finally seperate how EVERYTHING works in pvp vs pve. Everything you are complaining about can be countered or equalled, but you dont want to put any effort in. Its just easier to nerf stuff until you can kill it.
Also pvp is a competitive player vs player environment. Should people not spec to their own advantage? Rogues have pathetic defense so stacking def enchants in pointless. Since we start with a deflect stat it makes sense to build on that. Their are guides littering youtube right now that show virtually every class can do the same. +4000 deflect mount, stack deflect enchant in all slots, sigil of the trickster. If it apparently makes you so god like then why don't you just join the party? Then when you are all apparently invincible maybe the devs will finally seperate how EVERYTHING works in pvp vs pve. Everything you are complaining about can be countered or equalled, but you dont want to put any effort in. Its just easier to nerf stuff until you can kill it.
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
1
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
"specing" to fight a tr usually is a completly different load out (ringwise /gear wise ) for some classes and since you can no longer swap gear while in combat you are instantly at a disadvantage as son as another class shows up.. ya you can counter and then die soon after due to wrong powers / loadouts
an organised 1 v 1 and the choas of a pvp match with rotations are 2 different thing I already listed in multiple threads ways to counter trs items to use etc ... and how ethically such items may seem to guilds or the comunity or players..or how fair it is for anybody to get a core stealth tr mechanic simply by putting on a ring how fair is the stealth reveal ring to non Bis trs
It takes a hell of a lot of work and time invested (diamonds spent) to build a good ANYTHING and then apon reaching max item level certain classes way out perform others for thier "INVESTMENT"
The reason why TR's have better k/d is because they can go stealth and run away if 3v1. Even a good tr can't fight 3v1 (near item level) without 15 sec CB. Since CB is nerfed, tr has no choice to either use bloodbath (or try to dunk) to see if one can be killed. If he can't, he will run away because of combat disadvantage lol You worry about our deflect chance and deflect severity which makes us tanky right ? I can tell you, once we are stunned by class powers, rings, sandy pants, thunderhead enchants, etc, etc... we are easy to kill. Our itc doesn't work when we dodge a lot.
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited January 2018
Tr class argument comments (can be applied to maNY CLASSES INSERT WHICH EVER ONE YOU WANT ).....vs other classes 101
learn to play this only applies if you are max gear score .. this does not apply if you are not max gear score ...blah blah this assuming 2 opponents of equal gear score . dont use sub optimal hybrid builds for pve in pvp as a point of comparison this is only in a 1 v 1 with unlimited time and does/ does not represent a real pvp match terrain ..no tenacity .. icewind dale ..pets on ..etc ..
no one/ anybody /everybody should have stealth marginalised via items high k/d ratio does / does not mean high defensibly due to stealth and high deflect and itc (cause player can use certain items that you yourself should get ) your hitpoints were too low / not high enough expecting every player to be bis with 250K + hitpoints as the "solution " / reason
Sod same thing ... can be countered and is ok cause YOU should be using items that are situational rare/ Broken or not readily available or have multiple armour weapon types etc . full guild boons vs not full recovery vs not
there are bad trs on the leader board as well as good ones if we remove the top 10 or so trs (from overall/ from wins and from kills ) (or any class for that matter ) do the rest have average performance compared to other classes then .
.is this not how to balance then for the average player .. should a class be nerfed simply because there are 10-20 players that super excel at them and skew leader board results ..a
1. Tr is broken I never use broken stuff TO FIGHT THEM 2. Tr is not broken I never use broken stuff TO FIGHT THEM 3. Tr is broken ... so use these rings and pants/boons etc (which the devs put in the game to counter them ) 4. Tr is not broken ...but regardless I use these rings and pants/boons etc which are also broken to fight anyway 5. Tr is broken ... s\ i use these rings and pants (until they are fixed (according to me) to counter them ) 6. Tr is not broken but regardless I use these rings and pants/boons etc (which the devs put in the game to counter them cause i do not think they are broken either )
Lol do your research people, you can find videos online of every single class demolishing in pvp. Picking out boring trickster rogue videos and treating it as universal is just nonsense. Items are in the game, given to you by the devs, which counter all of your complaints. As ive stated, by a 4k deflect mount, equip silvery's and a TR sigil and you can get more than enough deflect rating to compete. But you wont do that, the problem is of your own making. Bothered about stealth? Just equip a ring, get them by the bucket load from demonic skirmishes. The only work involved in any of that is saving the diamonds for the mount.
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
item level plays a big part as well.... I was fighting a TR that was item level 8000 and he could not damage me even if i stood still. item level 12000 is about the same..
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dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
This is not true. Bis gwf you said ? That means his IL would be higher than the tr's right yet gwf was getting melted in sec which proves he was not bis or higher item level than the tr nor same item level as the tr. Clearly that bis gwf you are talking about had a lower IL and outdated build /bad build or he put everything in power and nothing in defense and deflect lmao.
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
This is not true. Bis gwf you said ? That means his IL would be higher than the tr's right yet gwf was getting melted in sec which proves he was not bis or higher item level than the tr nor same item level as the tr. Clearly that bis gwf you are talking about had a lower IL and outdated build /bad build or he put everything in power and nothing in defense and deflect lmao.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......DUDE PLEASE ----> LEAVE THIS THREAD!
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
This is not true. Bis gwf you said ? That means his IL would be higher than the tr's right yet gwf was getting melted in sec which proves he was not bis or higher item level than the tr nor same item level as the tr. Clearly that bis gwf you are talking about had a lower IL and outdated build /bad build or he put everything in power and nothing in defense and deflect lmao.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......DUDE PLEASE ----> LEAVE THIS THREAD!
Uhm.. that laugh tho... lemme guess, you must be a low level gwf with very bad build who can't kill anything hehe
And every person in here that plays a TR neglects to acknowledge the fact that deflect severity is so overpowered because of the way ITC works. ITC essentially gives you a 1000% chance to deflect (not a typo) which essentially means you are guaranteed to deflect every hit while this power is active. Now consider what foehammer's favor elixir does, giving you extra deflect severity. This synergizes too well with builds that rely on high recovery as they can keep ITC up with almost no down time. Now consider what happens when you use ITC in stealth, yes an extra layer of damage resistance. So now you have deflect severity reduction + foehammer's, combined with AN EXTRA LAYER OF DR!! This results in no damage being done to the TR.
ITC ladies and gentlemen when cycled correctly is the reason why the "squishy TR" suddenly becomes nigh unkillable to anyone but the two classes with piercing damage, TRs and HRs. Anyone that plays a TR that complains about being killed by other classes either is:
1. Undergeared Or 2. Not stacking the right stats (30k+ rec) and not using the proper rotations/playstyle Or a combination of both.
Finally TRs can pick and choose when to engage and run away. This is one of the advantages of the stealth mechanic and I don't see a problem with that. The problem is the survivability options on a TR once engaged in combat is the reason they can survive as long as they do. Bloodbath granting damage immunity along with high daily spam with AP gain exacerbates this problem also. If you play a TR these problems are glaring and easy to spot.
Also I haven't even touched on the problems with smoke bomb and cb that still exist. I'm going to stick to the topic at hand however and ignore how these effect TR survivability as well (smokebomb duration anyone?)
Hopefully in a future mod the devs do a in-depth class review and do something to make the class more skill based and less faceroll encounter power/daily spam based.
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
dude are you really serious? TR's has got the best defensive mechanic in game- stealth- it is not my fault you can't use that properly, also this is not my fault if you are weak TR. I am not gona argue with you when all the forum is telling that TR is broken but some mikal and demonmonger are telling no it isn't- well i have no time for that. You want video with dedaly TR? Well a bunch of videos are on youtube but Catch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sri3krCMdws
Same boring video over and over again. I should record some vids about the cw's i've seen on xbox. They are tanky af lol.
please do it ( but not with some no skill TRs ok? ) i wish to met these pro elo CW's.
13k tr kill bis gwf, staying at 1 node chill, no1 can kill it. 13k TR kill 4:43 bullcharge pff np I have 85% DS and kill bis GF with hafl rotation. 9:20 pala and gwf cant even harm him again. GG. Its only 13k, no rly?
This is not true. Bis gwf you said ? That means his IL would be higher than the tr's right yet gwf was getting melted in sec which proves he was not bis or higher item level than the tr nor same item level as the tr. Clearly that bis gwf you are talking about had a lower IL and outdated build /bad build or he put everything in power and nothing in defense and deflect lmao.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......DUDE PLEASE ----> LEAVE THIS THREAD!
Uhm.. that laugh tho... lemme guess, you must be a low level gwf with very bad build who can't kill anything hehe
@finalfantasyac7 reading your comments and I did fall out of my chair laughing. Please follow @modlesie advice........after you find that bad GWF on the leaderboard, that got melted in seconds.
PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
> @sh00termcl0vin said: > And every person in here that plays a TR neglects to acknowledge the fact that deflect severity is so overpowered because of the way ITC works. ITC essentially gives you a 1000% chance to deflect (not a typo) which essentially means you are guaranteed to deflect every hit while this power is active. Now consider what foehammer's favor elixir does, giving you extra deflect severity. This synergizes too well with builds that rely on high recovery as they can keep ITC up with almost no down time. Now consider what happens when you use ITC in stealth, yes an extra layer of damage resistance. So now you have deflect severity reduction + foehammer's, combined with AN EXTRA LAYER OF DR!! This results in no damage being done to the TR. > > ITC ladies and gentlemen when cycled correctly is the reason why the "squishy TR" suddenly becomes nigh unkillable to anyone but the two classes with piercing damage, TRs and HRs. Anyone that plays a TR that complains about being killed by other classes either is: > > 1. Undergeared > Or > 2. Not stacking the right stats (30k+ rec) and not using the proper rotations/playstyle > Or a combination of both. > > Finally TRs can pick and choose when to engage and run away. This is one of the advantages of the stealth mechanic and I don't see a problem with that. The problem is the survivability options on a TR once engaged in combat is the reason they can survive as long as they do. Bloodbath granting damage immunity along with high daily spam with AP gain exacerbates this problem also. If you play a TR these problems are glaring and easy to spot. > > Also I haven't even touched on the problems with smoke bomb and cb that still exist. I'm going to stick to the topic at hand however and ignore how these effect TR survivability as well (smokebomb duration anyone?) > > Hopefully in a future mod the devs do a in-depth class review and do something to make the class more skill based and less faceroll encounter power/daily spam based.
I must have missed the part in the ITC tool tip that states a 1000% deflect chance, maybe you could screen cap it for me. If a rogue is stacking recovery to reach 30k as you state then they are not speccing in power, crit and arpen. Everything is a trade off, if you spec for higher recovery at the expense of damage output then you will survive longer in combat. I could do the exact same thing with a GF with into the fray (AP gain) and fighters recovery = infinite heals + perma shield up time. These exploits exist in most classes.
> @macjae said: > I must have missed the part in the ITC tool tip that states a 1000% deflect chance, maybe you could screen cap it for me. If a rogue is stacking recovery to reach 30k as you state then they are not speccing in power, crit and arpen. Everything is a trade off, if you spec for higher recovery at the expense of damage output then you will survive longer in combat. I could do the exact same thing with a GF with into the fray (AP gain) and fighters recovery = infinite heals + perma shield up time. These exploits exist in most classes. > > And here is where you betray that you don't know how to build a TR for PVP, or understand a lot of the things that are broken with TRs. You should at least try to know the basic facts. > > I will point out two very simple things about TRs: > > 1. TRs in PVP don't need ArPen because SoD hits based on pre-mitigation damage. In other words, ArPen does nothing for it, but stacking lots of Power does. > > 2. TRs in PVP don't need Crit, because they have a 100% crit chance in stealth anyway. And guess what? They try to always remain in stealth, for defensive reasons. > > So there is no trade-off. One of the things about TRs that have been broken for a very long time is the fact that they only need two offensive stats in PVP; Power and Recovery. Before, it was piercing damage that made it so, now it's Shadow of Demise. > > And as a bonus piece of info, ITC gives +20000% deflection chance. Try activating it and looking at your character sheet while it's active (under deflection chance, not Deflection score). > > Of course, there are other issues with TRs that should probably be looked at if some of the broken things get fixed. They aren't alone in having broken aspects, they're just more broken than other classes, and in several different ways. Making it so SoD doesn't proc off of pre-mitigation damage and removing the 100% crit chance in stealth (and replacing it with something else; I think a bonus to combat advantage damage would be appropriate) would go a long way towards fixing their stat issues. They also need to be easier to kill, but I think making some PVP-specific adjustments to stealth would go a long way there, along with toning down the deflect severity (which they got when the chance to deflect maxed out at around 50%).
So because i disagree with you i dont understand how to build a rogue? The ignorance is astounding. You talk about SOD as though executioner is the only path that people use, i run saboteur and that works fine for me. Yes rogues have 100% crit chance IN stealth but anyone who know ANYTHING about rogues knows that 90% of damage comes from outside of stealth. Moves that replenish stealth (such as shadow strike) universally suck and are glitched to hell.
Rogues are only just being fixed now so that weapon and armor enchants actually work. That's in the mod patch notes, so yes rogues are broken but not in the way that you continue to suggest in a patronizing way. And rogues don't need armor pen? What are you smoking? If the only content in the game that you play is pvp then perhaps, but that isnt the case for the vast majority of players. A good rogue player specs into high crit and recovery as standard because of the patch that made stealth instantly drain on use of encounter powers. That's why i use saboteur because i can get free stealth refills intermitantly. So yes i have a rogue that needs crit and armor pen. Again, just because i 100% disagree with every word you say doesn't instantly make you right and me wrong.
> And every person in here that plays a TR neglects to acknowledge the fact that deflect severity is so overpowered because of the way ITC works. ITC essentially gives you a 1000% chance to deflect (not a typo) which essentially means you are guaranteed to deflect every hit while this power is active. Now consider what foehammer's favor elixir does, giving you extra deflect severity. This synergizes too well with builds that rely on high recovery as they can keep ITC up with almost no down time. Now consider what happens when you use ITC in stealth, yes an extra layer of damage resistance. So now you have deflect severity reduction + foehammer's, combined with AN EXTRA LAYER OF DR!! This results in no damage being done to the TR.
>
> ITC ladies and gentlemen when cycled correctly is the reason why the "squishy TR" suddenly becomes nigh unkillable to anyone but the two classes with piercing damage, TRs and HRs. Anyone that plays a TR that complains about being killed by other classes either is:
>
> 1. Undergeared
> Or
> 2. Not stacking the right stats (30k+ rec) and not using the proper rotations/playstyle
> Or a combination of both.
>
> Finally TRs can pick and choose when to engage and run away. This is one of the advantages of the stealth mechanic and I don't see a problem with that. The problem is the survivability options on a TR once engaged in combat is the reason they can survive as long as they do. Bloodbath granting damage immunity along with high daily spam with AP gain exacerbates this problem also. If you play a TR these problems are glaring and easy to spot.
>
> Also I haven't even touched on the problems with smoke bomb and cb that still exist. I'm going to stick to the topic at hand however and ignore how these effect TR survivability as well (smokebomb duration anyone?)
>
> Hopefully in a future mod the devs do a in-depth class review and do something to make the class more skill based and less faceroll encounter power/daily spam based.
I must have missed the part in the ITC tool tip that states a 1000% deflect chance, maybe you could screen cap it for me. If a rogue is stacking recovery to reach 30k as you state then they are not speccing in power, crit and arpen. Everything is a trade off, if you spec for higher recovery at the expense of damage output then you will survive longer in combat. I could do the exact same thing with a GF with into the fray (AP gain) and fighters recovery = infinite heals + perma shield up time. These exploits exist in most classes.
And this is problem- Tr need only to stack Power and recovery- he doesn't need crit because of 100% crit chance in stealth and he is atacking only in stealth, and he doesn't need arm pen- he have shadow of demise.
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited January 2018
+1 @macjae comments saved me the trouble of typing a full reply : D
@mikal#9243 why are you using a sub optimal pvp /pvp hybrid builds as the base line for optimal Pvp Tr performance .. perhaps you are missing the enchants and that is the grounds of your whole argument ..if you could use any enchant you want on your Tr in pvp no cost bared would you be using your current ones in pvp ?
I must have missed the part in the ITC tool tip that states a 1000% deflect chance, maybe you could screen cap it for me. If a rogue is stacking recovery to reach 30k as you state then they are not speccing in power, crit and arpen. Everything is a trade off, if you spec for higher recovery at the expense of damage output then you will survive longer in combat. I could do the exact same thing with a GF with into the fray (AP gain) and fighters recovery = infinite heals + perma shield up time. These exploits exist in most classes.
And here is where you betray that you don't know how to build a TR for PVP, or understand a lot of the things that are broken with TRs. You should at least try to know the basic facts.
I will point out two very simple things about TRs:
1. TRs in PVP don't need ArPen because SoD hits based on pre-mitigation damage. In other words, ArPen does nothing for it, but stacking lots of Power does.
2. TRs in PVP don't need Crit, because they have a 100% crit chance in stealth anyway. And guess what? They try to always remain in stealth, for defensive reasons.
So there is no trade-off. One of the things about TRs that have been broken for a very long time is the fact that they only need two offensive stats in PVP; Power and Recovery. Before, it was piercing damage that made it so, now it's Shadow of Demise.
And as a bonus piece of info, ITC gives +20000% deflection chance. Try activating it and looking at your character sheet while it's active (under deflection chance, not Deflection score).
Of course, there are other issues with TRs that should probably be looked at if some of the broken things get fixed. They aren't alone in having broken aspects, they're just more broken than other classes, and in several different ways. Making it so SoD doesn't proc off of pre-mitigation damage and removing the 100% crit chance in stealth (and replacing it with something else; I think a bonus to combat advantage damage would be appropriate) would go a long way towards fixing their stat issues. They also need to be easier to kill, but I think making some PVP-specific adjustments to stealth would go a long way there, along with toning down the deflect severity (which they got when the chance to deflect maxed out at around 50%).
Thank you @macjae for the correction, I forgot how ridiculously high it boosts the stat! @mikal Either way the percentage is irrelevant since anything past 100% has no effect however the point about guaranteed deflection still stands. I'm sorry but your just plain wrong. This isn't a matter of opinion or playstyle, it's just facts about the class mechanics and how they work. Also you can have recovery and power both at high values (30k+) without sacrificing either stat. Armor pen is not necessary considering how SOD works either. Finally stacking crit is probably the most uninformed thing I have heard from anyone that purports to play a TR in PVP. PVE builds in pve for a TR are suboptimal. Crit is useless. These facts have remained throughout every mod. Stealth grants 100% crit when you attack from stealth as well as combat advantage. All of your hard hitting damage your doing on a TR in PVP is going to be from stealth. SOD calculates on pre-mitigated damage, therefore the pitiful extra damage you get from crits out of stealth will not add extra damage to SOD. What will add extra damage is being able to land more powers in the short time that SOD is adding up damage.
You guys keep complaning about TR yet i don't see anyone complaining about other classes lmao. About saber, i didn't know he was better than all of you on pc. Gwf better than other classes. From the look of his stats.. it seems he played a lot in premades and since he can't tank vs a tr proves he's not that good at all. Im playing on xbox so i don't really care if he's the best gwf or not.
Why don't you go make a tr, get your deflect up to 50%, use ITC with 25k recovery and fight against some good cw's with lightning enchant or op's, dps dc's, even stealthed ITC will not save you from radiant damage.
So many things in game can be used against a tr such as Thunderhead enchant, curse rings, stealth reveal rings, sandy pants, shadowclad, lightning enchant yet you come here saying why tr have high deflect severity. I can also say this - Why can a gf shield absorb 90k sod and kill any class in no time ? Their prone and stuns are long enough to get your hp to 10% or kill you < gf broken. Why can pally do that amount of damage and being tanky af. When i hit them, all i see is 0, 0, 0, 0 damage. < pally broken.
Devo pallies healing still op in group. It looks like the healing depression doesn't affect devo pallies. We don't want that kind of healing in pvp.
Dc healing is still OP. We don't want that much of healing in pvp.
> @macjae said: > So because i disagree with you i dont understand how to build a rogue? The ignorance is astounding. You talk about SOD as though executioner is the only path that people use, i run saboteur and that works fine for me. > > Yes rogues have 100% crit chance IN stealth but anyone who know ANYTHING about rogues knows that 90% of damage comes from outside of stealth. Moves that replenish stealth (such as shadow strike) universally suck and are glitched to hell. > > > > Rogues are only just being fixed now so that weapon and armor enchants actually work. That's in the mod patch notes, so yes rogues are broken but not in the way that you continue to suggest in a patronizing way. > > And rogues don't need armor pen? What are you smoking? If the only content in the game that you play is pvp then perhaps, but that isnt the case for the vast majority of players. > > A good rogue player specs into high crit and recovery as standard because of the patch that made stealth instantly drain on use of encounter powers. That's why i use saboteur because i can get free stealth refills intermitantly. So yes i have a rogue that needs crit and armor pen. Again, just because i 100% disagree with every word you say doesn't instantly make you right and me wrong. > > This is the PVP forum. We are talking about TR performance in PVP. For not being in PVP, you can switch to a different loadout with different stats. For being in PVP, a well-built TR can go entirely without ArPen or Crit and do better than if he had wasted points in those stats. > > (Also, unless there was some bug, there was never a "patch" that made stealth drain on use of encounter powers. That was always the case, from the start of the game. What they did add in later was making the use of at-wills gradually drain stealth, however.) > > As for your disagreement, there's a difference between disagreeing on the basis of facts and disagreeing with the facts. The former is fine, if you can bring good arguments; the latter is just being willfully ignorant. Your using a particular build doesn't change the facts that there are broken aspects about different builds that aren't (as) present in your build. That's as absurd as trying to argue that everyone should have free access to nuclear bombs because you prefer to use a knife.
I would be disagreeing with facts if you was actually presenting any. Rogues were altered to make stealth far less effective and drain twice as fast, instantly on encounter powers. Ignoring or denying this is counter prosuctive. I've told you 3 times now how to counter every single complaint that you have made just using a little effort. I can't do any more than that. As ive stated there are broken aspects in every build of every class.
You also seem to gloss over the fact that ive been exclusively talking about pvp for the last several wasted replies. The point i am trying to make that you clearly dont care about is that people dont only play pvp, pve and pvp are directly linked. I will say it again, your point holds if pvp is the only content in that game that you care about. I wont repeat this a 3rd time. Yes this a pvp thread, but changes in pvp are carried to pve. I dont want to be here arguing this out but the devs refuse to seperate the 2 modes and make significant alterations. Until that point pve players have every right to be in on the discussion when it comes to significant changes to ANY class in any mode.
Comments
so which other classes have a propensity/ability to kill steal then aside from Tr ? cw hr sw gwf pally ???..which classes cant kill steal then ??? that means taking leader board stats into account they are doing even worse then perceived by that logic/ line of thinking and need even more of a buff
how come other classes that "kill steal" are not doing as well then in k/d ratios
I already mentioned stuns/ pants / rings and multiple ways to reveal a tr in multiple threads already you are preaching to the pope there
is there a difference between kill stealing due to burst/ timing / deliberately waiting strategically and/ or kill stealing due to the natures of dot damage delivery / proper rotations ?
recommending broken mechanics to deal with broken mechanics ...tr are mad there ever were stealth rings ( that mimics thier class feature or reveals rings.... how many other rings in the game mimic entire class feature powers with no investment
discussing a classes perceived overpowered offensibility is different then its defensibility . declaring that Tr can kill steal as a possible reason for k?d on the leader board is only one side of the coin the other its hardness to target and kill (by players refusing to use broken rings/ items to deal with that also that being thier other moral dilemma )
can not any player using an invisible ring/ armor enchant be "kill stealing" and skewing results
There are guilds hypocritically declaring and forbidding the use of certains items and/or player being frowned upon/ looked down on for using them / policing themselves with their own moral compass .. or the devs refusing tho fix certain broken items and players declaring the working as intended moto
by the way personally i think tr have an artificially lower death ratio more because they are running away and disengaging then due to extreme defensive mechanics that are couterable by rings when they are caught and they will/ should try to avoid those players that are using them
tr can ks more easily than all except maybe archer
Question concerning the GWF with the 43 ratio - is he that certain GWF, sitting at the campfire for a whole match when "uncomfortable" opponents show up that could ruin his score.....I would not count that into the ratio table - but I have to give it to him, unlike me he knows which fights to pick.
> > @kalina311 said:
> > > @marnival said:
> >
> > > > @marnival said:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > Lol if anyone can resonably explain why rogues are more "unkillable" than a perma shield GF maybe this thread would have some merit. If rogues are tanky then im arnold schwarneggar. Hint, i'm not arnold schwarneggar. Anyone who has actually played as a rogue will tell you ITC got nerfed to hell. Itc + stealth was ruined a long time ago plus can no longer activate while dodging. Why don't you guys start by telling me what rogues are actually allowed to have? Lol. Can we have any at wills? I'm guessing the majority of you have a problem with duelist flurry as well lol
> >
> > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > Press L take up leaderboard Press KILLS study the Tr kill ratio end of discussion mkay.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > You are clearly as clueless as it is possible to be...
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > You say while not addressing a single point i made. Who's the clueless one? If you add nothing to the conversation then don't join in. K?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > So pressing L is to much for you ? Do your homework its long overdue mkay. If you cant figure out whey Tr die 1/10 of all other classes in pvp and kill 3 times as much you have NOT done your homework simple as that....
> >
> >
> >
> > Lol and still not adressed anything i said. Time wasters arent worth bothering with. Have fun with your nonsense.
> >
> > @mikal#9243
> >
> > whether he listened to you or not / waitsted thread time or not moot point... my turn then
> >
> > How are these leader board top tr achieving the kills deaths ratios he is describing despite the Tr powers you yourself listed as being nerfed/ ruined? ..just how are they doing it then ? riddle me that .
>
> Many try kills come from kill stealing from other players. Shadow of demise might finish someone off, or a saboteur might throw the last dagger that finishes a fleeing opponent.
> I hear many people telling how vulnerable trs are when stunned. Guess what, it's true.
>
> All you need to kill a tr even as a mediocre player = sandys assault pants, ring of curse bringer.
>
> Trans thunderhead, can help also (stuns when they critical you)
>
> Add in a ring of vanishing presence or ring of ambush and tr''s will hate you.
>
The reason i call it time wasting is because anybody can describe lobbies where rogues run rampant and get like 39485 kills with 0 deaths. Screenshots? Video? Proof? It takes a hell of a lot of work and time invested (diamonds spent) to build a good rogue. But also if you know what you are doing, even the good ones can be neautralised.
"specing" to fight a tr usually is a completly different load out (ringwise /gear wise ) for some classes
and since you can no longer swap gear while in combat you are instantly at a disadvantage as son as another class shows up.. ya you can counter and then die soon after due to wrong powers / loadouts
an organised 1 v 1 and the choas of a pvp match with rotations are 2 different thing
I already listed in multiple threads ways to counter trs items to use etc ... and how ethically such items may seem to guilds or the comunity or players..or how fair it is for anybody to get a core stealth tr mechanic simply by putting on a ring
how fair is the stealth reveal ring to non Bis trs
It takes a hell of a lot of work and time invested (diamonds spent) to build a good ANYTHING
and then apon reaching max item level certain classes way out perform others for thier "INVESTMENT"
Even a good tr can't fight 3v1 (near item level) without 15 sec CB. Since CB is nerfed, tr has no choice to either use bloodbath (or try to dunk) to see if one can be killed. If he can't, he will run away because of combat disadvantage lol
You worry about our deflect chance and deflect severity which makes us tanky right ? I can tell you, once we are stunned by class powers, rings, sandy pants, thunderhead enchants, etc, etc... we are easy to kill. Our itc doesn't work when we dodge a lot.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
learn to play
this only applies if you are max gear score ..
this does not apply if you are not max gear score ...blah blah
this assuming 2 opponents of equal gear score .
dont use sub optimal hybrid builds for pve in pvp as a point of comparison
this is only in a 1 v 1 with unlimited time and does/ does not represent a real pvp match terrain ..no tenacity .. icewind dale ..pets on ..etc ..
no one/ anybody /everybody should have stealth marginalised via items
high k/d ratio does / does not mean high defensibly due to stealth and high deflect and itc (cause player can use certain items that you yourself should get )
your hitpoints were too low / not high enough expecting every player to be bis with 250K + hitpoints as the "solution " / reason
Sod same thing ... can be countered and is ok cause YOU should be using items that are situational rare/ Broken or not readily available or have multiple armour weapon types etc .
full guild boons vs not full recovery vs not
there are bad trs on the leader board as well as good ones if we remove the top 10 or so trs (from overall/ from wins and from kills ) (or any class for that matter ) do the rest have average performance compared to other classes then .
.is this not how to balance then for the average player .. should a class be nerfed simply because there are 10-20 players that super excel at them and skew leader board results ..a
1. Tr is broken I never use broken stuff TO FIGHT THEM
2. Tr is not broken I never use broken stuff TO FIGHT THEM
3. Tr is broken ... so use these rings and pants/boons etc (which the devs put in the game to counter them )
4. Tr is not broken ...but regardless I use these rings and pants/boons etc which are also broken to fight anyway
5. Tr is broken ... s\ i use these rings and pants (until they are fixed (according to me) to counter them )
6. Tr is not broken but regardless I use these rings and pants/boons etc (which the devs put in the game to counter them cause i do not think they are broken either )
there that about sums up the whole thread
Catch- brainless daily power using vs top1 GWF on PC
Clearly that bis gwf you are talking about had a lower IL and outdated build /bad build or he put everything in power and nothing in defense and deflect lmao.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
Uhm.. that laugh tho... lemme guess, you must be a low level gwf with very bad build who can't kill anything hehe
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
ITC ladies and gentlemen when cycled correctly is the reason why the "squishy TR" suddenly becomes nigh unkillable to anyone but the two classes with piercing damage, TRs and HRs. Anyone that plays a TR that complains about being killed by other classes either is:
1. Undergeared
Or
2. Not stacking the right stats (30k+ rec) and not using the proper rotations/playstyle
Or a combination of both.
Finally TRs can pick and choose when to engage and run away. This is one of the advantages of the stealth mechanic and I don't see a problem with that. The problem is the survivability options on a TR once engaged in combat is the reason they can survive as long as they do. Bloodbath granting damage immunity along with high daily spam with AP gain exacerbates this problem also. If you play a TR these problems are glaring and easy to spot.
Also I haven't even touched on the problems with smoke bomb and cb that still exist. I'm going to stick to the topic at hand however and ignore how these effect TR survivability as well (smokebomb duration anyone?)
Hopefully in a future mod the devs do a in-depth class review and do something to make the class more skill based and less faceroll encounter power/daily spam based.
> And every person in here that plays a TR neglects to acknowledge the fact that deflect severity is so overpowered because of the way ITC works. ITC essentially gives you a 1000% chance to deflect (not a typo) which essentially means you are guaranteed to deflect every hit while this power is active. Now consider what foehammer's favor elixir does, giving you extra deflect severity. This synergizes too well with builds that rely on high recovery as they can keep ITC up with almost no down time. Now consider what happens when you use ITC in stealth, yes an extra layer of damage resistance. So now you have deflect severity reduction + foehammer's, combined with AN EXTRA LAYER OF DR!! This results in no damage being done to the TR.
>
> ITC ladies and gentlemen when cycled correctly is the reason why the "squishy TR" suddenly becomes nigh unkillable to anyone but the two classes with piercing damage, TRs and HRs. Anyone that plays a TR that complains about being killed by other classes either is:
>
> 1. Undergeared
> Or
> 2. Not stacking the right stats (30k+ rec) and not using the proper rotations/playstyle
> Or a combination of both.
>
> Finally TRs can pick and choose when to engage and run away. This is one of the advantages of the stealth mechanic and I don't see a problem with that. The problem is the survivability options on a TR once engaged in combat is the reason they can survive as long as they do. Bloodbath granting damage immunity along with high daily spam with AP gain exacerbates this problem also. If you play a TR these problems are glaring and easy to spot.
>
> Also I haven't even touched on the problems with smoke bomb and cb that still exist. I'm going to stick to the topic at hand however and ignore how these effect TR survivability as well (smokebomb duration anyone?)
>
> Hopefully in a future mod the devs do a in-depth class review and do something to make the class more skill based and less faceroll encounter power/daily spam based.
I must have missed the part in the ITC tool tip that states a 1000% deflect chance, maybe you could screen cap it for me. If a rogue is stacking recovery to reach 30k as you state then they are not speccing in power, crit and arpen. Everything is a trade off, if you spec for higher recovery at the expense of damage output then you will survive longer in combat. I could do the exact same thing with a GF with into the fray (AP gain) and fighters recovery = infinite heals + perma shield up time. These exploits exist in most classes.
> I must have missed the part in the ITC tool tip that states a 1000% deflect chance, maybe you could screen cap it for me. If a rogue is stacking recovery to reach 30k as you state then they are not speccing in power, crit and arpen. Everything is a trade off, if you spec for higher recovery at the expense of damage output then you will survive longer in combat. I could do the exact same thing with a GF with into the fray (AP gain) and fighters recovery = infinite heals + perma shield up time. These exploits exist in most classes.
>
> And here is where you betray that you don't know how to build a TR for PVP, or understand a lot of the things that are broken with TRs. You should at least try to know the basic facts.
>
> I will point out two very simple things about TRs:
>
> 1. TRs in PVP don't need ArPen because SoD hits based on pre-mitigation damage. In other words, ArPen does nothing for it, but stacking lots of Power does.
>
> 2. TRs in PVP don't need Crit, because they have a 100% crit chance in stealth anyway. And guess what? They try to always remain in stealth, for defensive reasons.
>
> So there is no trade-off. One of the things about TRs that have been broken for a very long time is the fact that they only need two offensive stats in PVP; Power and Recovery. Before, it was piercing damage that made it so, now it's Shadow of Demise.
>
> And as a bonus piece of info, ITC gives +20000% deflection chance. Try activating it and looking at your character sheet while it's active (under deflection chance, not Deflection score).
>
> Of course, there are other issues with TRs that should probably be looked at if some of the broken things get fixed. They aren't alone in having broken aspects, they're just more broken than other classes, and in several different ways. Making it so SoD doesn't proc off of pre-mitigation damage and removing the 100% crit chance in stealth (and replacing it with something else; I think a bonus to combat advantage damage would be appropriate) would go a long way towards fixing their stat issues. They also need to be easier to kill, but I think making some PVP-specific adjustments to stealth would go a long way there, along with toning down the deflect severity (which they got when the chance to deflect maxed out at around 50%).
So because i disagree with you i dont understand how to build a rogue? The ignorance is astounding. You talk about SOD as though executioner is the only path that people use, i run saboteur and that works fine for me.
Yes rogues have 100% crit chance IN stealth but anyone who know ANYTHING about rogues knows that 90% of damage comes from outside of stealth. Moves that replenish stealth (such as shadow strike) universally suck and are glitched to hell.
Rogues are only just being fixed now so that weapon and armor enchants actually work. That's in the mod patch notes, so yes rogues are broken but not in the way that you continue to suggest in a patronizing way.
And rogues don't need armor pen? What are you smoking? If the only content in the game that you play is pvp then perhaps, but that isnt the case for the vast majority of players.
A good rogue player specs into high crit and recovery as standard because of the patch that made stealth instantly drain on use of encounter powers. That's why i use saboteur because i can get free stealth refills intermitantly. So yes i have a rogue that needs crit and armor pen. Again, just because i 100% disagree with every word you say doesn't instantly make you right and me wrong.
@mikal#9243
why are you using a sub optimal pvp /pvp hybrid builds as the base line for optimal Pvp Tr performance ..
perhaps you are missing the enchants and that is the grounds of your whole argument ..if you could use any enchant you want on your Tr in pvp no cost bared would you be using your current ones in pvp ?
Gwf better than other classes. From the look of his stats.. it seems he played a lot in premades and since he can't tank vs a tr proves he's not that good at all. Im playing on xbox so i don't really care if he's the best gwf or not.
Why don't you go make a tr, get your deflect up to 50%, use ITC with 25k recovery and fight against some good cw's with lightning enchant or op's, dps dc's, even stealthed ITC will not save you from radiant damage.
So many things in game can be used against a tr such as Thunderhead enchant, curse rings, stealth reveal rings, sandy pants, shadowclad, lightning enchant yet you come here saying why tr have high deflect severity.
I can also say this -
Why can a gf shield absorb 90k sod and kill any class in no time ? Their prone and stuns are long enough to get your hp to 10% or kill you < gf broken.
Why can pally do that amount of damage and being tanky af. When i hit them, all i see is 0, 0, 0, 0 damage. < pally broken.
Devo pallies healing still op in group. It looks like the healing depression doesn't affect devo pallies. We don't want that kind of healing in pvp.
Dc healing is still OP. We don't want that much of healing in pvp.
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> So because i disagree with you i dont understand how to build a rogue? The ignorance is astounding. You talk about SOD as though executioner is the only path that people use, i run saboteur and that works fine for me.
>
> Yes rogues have 100% crit chance IN stealth but anyone who know ANYTHING about rogues knows that 90% of damage comes from outside of stealth. Moves that replenish stealth (such as shadow strike) universally suck and are glitched to hell.
>
>
>
> Rogues are only just being fixed now so that weapon and armor enchants actually work. That's in the mod patch notes, so yes rogues are broken but not in the way that you continue to suggest in a patronizing way.
>
> And rogues don't need armor pen? What are you smoking? If the only content in the game that you play is pvp then perhaps, but that isnt the case for the vast majority of players.
>
> A good rogue player specs into high crit and recovery as standard because of the patch that made stealth instantly drain on use of encounter powers. That's why i use saboteur because i can get free stealth refills intermitantly. So yes i have a rogue that needs crit and armor pen. Again, just because i 100% disagree with every word you say doesn't instantly make you right and me wrong.
>
> This is the PVP forum. We are talking about TR performance in PVP. For not being in PVP, you can switch to a different loadout with different stats. For being in PVP, a well-built TR can go entirely without ArPen or Crit and do better than if he had wasted points in those stats.
>
> (Also, unless there was some bug, there was never a "patch" that made stealth drain on use of encounter powers. That was always the case, from the start of the game. What they did add in later was making the use of at-wills gradually drain stealth, however.)
>
> As for your disagreement, there's a difference between disagreeing on the basis of facts and disagreeing with the facts. The former is fine, if you can bring good arguments; the latter is just being willfully ignorant. Your using a particular build doesn't change the facts that there are broken aspects about different builds that aren't (as) present in your build. That's as absurd as trying to argue that everyone should have free access to nuclear bombs because you prefer to use a knife.
I would be disagreeing with facts if you was actually presenting any. Rogues were altered to make stealth far less effective and drain twice as fast, instantly on encounter powers. Ignoring or denying this is counter prosuctive. I've told you 3 times now how to counter every single complaint that you have made just using a little effort. I can't do any more than that. As ive stated there are broken aspects in every build of every class.
You also seem to gloss over the fact that ive been exclusively talking about pvp for the last several wasted replies. The point i am trying to make that you clearly dont care about is that people dont only play pvp, pve and pvp are directly linked. I will say it again, your point holds if pvp is the only content in that game that you care about. I wont repeat this a 3rd time. Yes this a pvp thread, but changes in pvp are carried to pve. I dont want to be here arguing this out but the devs refuse to seperate the 2 modes and make significant alterations. Until that point pve players have every right to be in on the discussion when it comes to significant changes to ANY class in any mode.