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Loot feedback Illusionist's Gambit

ejziponkenejziponken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 887 Arc User
edited January 2018 in Player Feedback (PC)
Here I am with some more feedback. This time after 150+ rounds of Illusionist's Gambit I have still not obtained a single +4 companion gear that goes with my companion.

Is this supposed to be fun? Each run takes about 11-12 minutes with a CW IL 17.3k. This means I've spent 30 hours in this Skirmish with 0 progress to my char. How does this make any sense at all? And the worst of all is that when I do get a +4 item, its the wrong one. And I know players who spent three times that or even more.

Suggestion:
Make it so that when you actually win something, you can choose the item with the correct stats for your class. I'm sick of getting lifesteal and defense etc and the wrong kind. I need 3 rings for example and I keep getting belts and icons etc.


Please let me know what you think about this.

@nitocris83 @noworries#8859 @asterdahl @terramak @miasmat

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Comments

  • tolkienbufftolkienbuff Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,424 Arc User
    This is the problem with RNG based rewards. Some players do thousands of MSVA and wind up with not a single legendary ring (I am in this boat). Some people go for less than 10 and wind up with one or multiple. Some people who run IG get the companion gear they're looking for in the first 20 runs. Others wind up doing 100s or thousands with no luck.

    I hate this mechanic tbh. It is ridiculously bad for some players and ridiculously good for others. You may be rewarded for your efforts or you may never be. This is a terrible method of crossing your fingers and being disappointed time and time again. The "grind" of doing these dungeons/skirmishes/epic trials repeatedly for days on end just to get nothing is getting very old.

    I appreciate your suggestion and others like it, the goal should be that eventually, you should have a 100% chance of being rewarded with what you seek.

    Thanks for your post!
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,112 Arc User


    Suggestion:
    Make it so that when you actually win something, you can choose the item with the correct stats for your class. I'm sick of getting lifesteal and defense etc and the wrong kind. I need 3 rings for example and I keep getting belts and icons etc.

    If you do mean you want 3 rings (you probably not), you should not farm them in IG.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • ejziponkenejziponken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 887 Arc User

    This is the problem with RNG based rewards. Some players do thousands of MSVA and wind up with not a single legendary ring (I am in this boat). Some people go for less than 10 and wind up with one or multiple. Some people who run IG get the companion gear they're looking for in the first 20 runs. Others wind up doing 100s or thousands with no luck.

    I hate this mechanic tbh. It is ridiculously bad for some players and ridiculously good for others. You may be rewarded for your efforts or you may never be. This is a terrible method of crossing your fingers and being disappointed time and time again. The "grind" of doing these dungeons/skirmishes/epic trials repeatedly for days on end just to get nothing is getting very old.

    I appreciate your suggestion and others like it, the goal should be that eventually, you should have a 100% chance of being rewarded with what you seek.

    Thanks for your post!

    Yeah and same with the loot in the Epic dungons. Who think its fun running Tong or MSP for 4 weeks without a single legendary enchanting stone drop? I know for a fact that I dont. The players needs to feel that every run is progress. With the current system you have to grind and grind for a long time until you get that big score. A better system would be that you grind and grind but you gain stuff every round.

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • tolkienbufftolkienbuff Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,424 Arc User

    This is the problem with RNG based rewards. Some players do thousands of MSVA and wind up with not a single legendary ring (I am in this boat). Some people go for less than 10 and wind up with one or multiple. Some people who run IG get the companion gear they're looking for in the first 20 runs. Others wind up doing 100s or thousands with no luck.

    I hate this mechanic tbh. It is ridiculously bad for some players and ridiculously good for others. You may be rewarded for your efforts or you may never be. This is a terrible method of crossing your fingers and being disappointed time and time again. The "grind" of doing these dungeons/skirmishes/epic trials repeatedly for days on end just to get nothing is getting very old.

    I appreciate your suggestion and others like it, the goal should be that eventually, you should have a 100% chance of being rewarded with what you seek.

    Thanks for your post!

    Yeah and same with the loot in the Epic dungons. Who think its fun running Tong or MSP for 4 weeks without a single legendary enchanting stone drop? I know for a fact that I dont. The players needs to feel that every run is progress. With the current system you have to grind and grind for a long time until you get that big score. A better system would be that you grind and grind but you gain stuff every round.
    Perhaps something in T09G like if you accumulate a large amount of seals of the brave you could turn them in for a UES to offset the bad RNG. Each type of dungeon/trial/skirmish could have it's own currency that you could turn in for any piece that drops from that particular content. That way, even if RNG doesn't pan out, you're working, even if slowly, towards the goal making progression rather than simply wasting time?
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • ejziponkenejziponken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 887 Arc User

    This is the problem with RNG based rewards. Some players do thousands of MSVA and wind up with not a single legendary ring (I am in this boat). Some people go for less than 10 and wind up with one or multiple. Some people who run IG get the companion gear they're looking for in the first 20 runs. Others wind up doing 100s or thousands with no luck.

    I hate this mechanic tbh. It is ridiculously bad for some players and ridiculously good for others. You may be rewarded for your efforts or you may never be. This is a terrible method of crossing your fingers and being disappointed time and time again. The "grind" of doing these dungeons/skirmishes/epic trials repeatedly for days on end just to get nothing is getting very old.

    I appreciate your suggestion and others like it, the goal should be that eventually, you should have a 100% chance of being rewarded with what you seek.

    Thanks for your post!

    Yeah and same with the loot in the Epic dungons. Who think its fun running Tong or MSP for 4 weeks without a single legendary enchanting stone drop? I know for a fact that I dont. The players needs to feel that every run is progress. With the current system you have to grind and grind for a long time until you get that big score. A better system would be that you grind and grind but you gain stuff every round.
    Perhaps something in T09G like if you accumulate a large amount of seals of the brave you could turn them in for a UES to offset the bad RNG. Each type of dungeon/trial/skirmish could have it's own currency that you could turn in for any piece that drops from that particular content. That way, even if RNG doesn't pan out, you're working, even if slowly, towards the goal making progression rather than simply wasting time?
    Yes exactly. The seals are a perfect way of giving us gradually progress over time for each run. You leave as a winner every single time and you will feel that you making progress and you wanna keep going so you spend even more time in the game. But after 5 tong runs one day you feel like a looser 99% of the time and you need to take a break because of the failures.

    I honestly dont understand how this isn't obvious for the devs.

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • tolkienbufftolkienbuff Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,424 Arc User

    My suggestion: For important RNG-based loot, such as the +4/+5 rings currently, assign each toon a count of the number of times they didn't receive the top drop. Gradually increase their chance of obtaining the best loot table slot until they do receive it, then reset the counter to zero. That keeps the character of "some players are thrilled to receive awesome loot on their third run" while all-but-removing the withering disappointment of "I ran this 500 times and still don't have what I want."

    Another great solution to this issue, making character progression assured at some rate rather than potentially never progressing based off pure luck (or misfortune in my case).
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    My suggestion: For important RNG-based loot, such as the +4/+5 rings currently, assign each toon a count of the number of times they didn't receive the top drop. Gradually increase their chance of obtaining the best loot table slot until they do receive it, then reset the counter to zero. That keeps the character of "some players are thrilled to receive awesome loot on their third run" while all-but-removing the withering disappointment of "I ran this 500 times and still don't have what I want."

    I think many of us already thoughts about it and many devs too and not only in this game, and while it wouldn't be hard at all to implement it I think sadly the devs don't want such a thing implemented because in the long run people would get their items faster and play less and as a result less money to make ?
  • dafrca#4810 dafrca Member Posts: 469 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    c3rb3r3 said:

    My suggestion: For important RNG-based loot, such as the +4/+5 rings currently, assign each toon a count of the number of times they didn't receive the top drop. Gradually increase their chance of obtaining the best loot table slot until they do receive it, then reset the counter to zero. That keeps the character of "some players are thrilled to receive awesome loot on their third run" while all-but-removing the withering disappointment of "I ran this 500 times and still don't have what I want."

    I think many of us already thoughts about it and many devs too and not only in this game, and while it wouldn't be hard at all to implement it I think sadly the devs don't want such a thing implemented because in the long run people would get their items faster and play less and as a result less money to make ?
    I would love to see the numbers to show the impact of players who drop out of game for lack of level appropriate rewards vs the amount of players who get tired and pay cash. Then contrast that with a model where players get rewarded based on level and effort. Would be nice to see the real numbers rather than the guessing we players do in the conversations. It would be fun to see them though.
  • ejziponkenejziponken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 887 Arc User

    c3rb3r3 said:

    My suggestion: For important RNG-based loot, such as the +4/+5 rings currently, assign each toon a count of the number of times they didn't receive the top drop. Gradually increase their chance of obtaining the best loot table slot until they do receive it, then reset the counter to zero. That keeps the character of "some players are thrilled to receive awesome loot on their third run" while all-but-removing the withering disappointment of "I ran this 500 times and still don't have what I want."

    I think many of us already thoughts about it and many devs too and not only in this game, and while it wouldn't be hard at all to implement it I think sadly the devs don't want such a thing implemented because in the long run people would get their items faster and play less and as a result less money to make ?
    I would love to see the numbers to show the impact of players who drop out of game for lack of level appropriate rewards vs the amount of players who get tired and pay cash. Then contrast that with a model where players get rewarded based on level and effort. Would be nice to see the real numbers rather than the guessing we players do in the conversations. It would be fun to see them though.
    I would never pay for a game that I think is doing a bad job. And the RNG system in this game is super bad.

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • jmiller84jmiller84 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 188 Arc User
    They need to either change the RNG system or have a trade-in system or professions tasks to get what you're trying to get. For example:

    Trade-in: a +5 or Greater Ostorian with 2 offensive slots can be traded for a +5/Greater Ostorian with 2 offensive slots. Likewise defensively.

    Professions: 10 +4 of any singular ring (Rising Power, Rising Precision, etc.) can be crafted in a +5 of that type. Basically Rising Power +4 x10 = Rising Power +5. Doesn't take away the farming, but at least players can make progress towards what they're trying to get.

    As for UES, the drop rate is ridiculous. I'm up to roughly 70-75 runs without a drop, since day 2 of 2x enchants/runes in December. I don't know if max seals is the answer, because seals cap on weekly basis. But whatever the cap may be, and its not 400 like the tool-tip suggests, should be enough to purchase 1 UES. Given that it takes 3 to upgrade anything to 14, its still a massive grind for most players. This would also encourage more players to gear up alts and support classes to be able to get more. But let's just say you've got 1 toon capable of running ToNG. If you capped seals each week for 1 UES, it would still take nearly 2 years to rank up everything to r14/unparalleled. But like I said before, at least you're making progress towards what you're trying to get.
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  • chimeraxchimerax Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    Problem is that Cryptic relies too heavily on the RNG system that is in place. To them if you don't get the drops you are tying to get you will eventually get frustrated and BUY them by spending cash. This game is not Casual friendly. Everything in this game runs off of the RNG.
  • masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    Chimeric, you can't buy ANY of the items people are complaining about with real $. Closest ones would be the Hunt rings....but even buying 20,000 lures doesn't mean you will get even 1 ring. So it makes no sense financially for them keep this system, as it generates no income.

    I have 120m diamonds, a stockpile of extra rank 12s, and ALL my characters are maxed EXCEPT they have 0 top end RNG based equipment. It's honestly going to make me quit if I don't get some soon....
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,101 Arc User
    The top end rings are the perfect carrot to get people to grind ad nauseam. I don't think they will ever make them purchasable with RL money or tradeable with lesser rings. They rather have the hundreds of hours some players are willing to sink into the grind.
    masteroga said:


    I have 120m diamonds, a stockpile of extra rank 12s, and ALL my characters are maxed EXCEPT they have 0 top end RNG based equipment. It's honestly going to make me quit if I don't get some soon....

    With such wealth, you seem like a long time player. Zero rings? I never grind just for the rings, but when the devs did the "improved loot" key update, I got the four +5 rings I have now during that first week. They must have messed up the drop rate a bit because I was seeing someone get a +5 ring nearly every CN run. Sometimes two people got the same +5 ring. Did you happen to not play that week? That was the best week or two to get a +5 ring before the drop rate was fixed.

    And lets be for real, no one at or near BiS, sans the top rings, is going to quit the game just because they can't get a ring.
  • demolitioninc#2453 demolitioninc Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    I almost rage quitted the game yesterday. I did my 3rd KoS hunt - all self collected - and for the 3rd time got a double drop of Keffiyahs with a +4 Yuan-Ti ring.....not a single corona or amiculum drop in 3 attempts. I don't feel rewarded for all the work and effort I put in.
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  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User

    I almost rage quitted the game yesterday. I did my 3rd KoS hunt - all self collected - and for the 3rd time got a double drop of Keffiyahs with a +4 Yuan-Ti ring.....not a single corona or amiculum drop in 3 attempts. I don't feel rewarded for all the work and effort I put in.

    If it weren't for them being bound, I'd take those off your hands if you REALLY didn't want them @demolitioninc. :P Those are two little items I wouldn't mind adding to my collection.
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  • manipulosmanipulos Member Posts: 235 Arc User

    I almost rage quitted the game yesterday. I did my 3rd KoS hunt - all self collected - and for the 3rd time got a double drop of Keffiyahs with a +4 Yuan-Ti ring.....not a single corona or amiculum drop in 3 attempts. I don't feel rewarded for all the work and effort I put in.

    Dang man I feel for you. I stopped bothering with the hunts after about a week of messing around in there and working up to a few Tier 2 hunts and seeing how bag the drop rates are.
  • rannxeroxxrannxeroxx Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    Frankly I HATE randomize rewards. I actually hope states start banning lockbox/key systems since it really is unregulated gambling. Tell me what the price is of something and I will either pay it or not either with time or money.
  • nitocris83nitocris83 Member, Cryptic Developer, Administrator Posts: 4,106 Community Manager
    Feedback is being passed on.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    I've done thousands of instances that can generate +5s, I've had a total of 3 straight to guild coffer completely useless to any class +5s (2 stealth related, I don't PvP).

    You don't necessarily have to be given the one you want, but a choice of 1 offensive, 1 defensive and one utility item would be a MASSIVE improvement.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    Actually, DOTA2 does this quite well with chance-based systems, via the so called "pseudo-random distribution". (https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Random_distribution)

    This way you'll keep the content grindy, but far less painful than before. Another thing that would be nice is what another forum user said - bring back DF. Make fangs+seals of the brave give comp. gear that are loyal-tier.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,536 Arc User

    Frankly I HATE randomize rewards. I actually hope states start banning lockbox/key systems since it really is unregulated gambling. Tell me what the price is of something and I will either pay it or not either with time or money.

    Interesting. It has only just dawned on me how much an MMO in general is a randomized unregulated gambling arena. I guess that the Terms of Service probably state that all of our stuff in game actually belongs to someone else and that the servers can get turned off any time without warning as there is no monthly subscription payment. Very interesting.

  • azaylin#1903 azaylin Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    Please just change companion gear to a Seal Merchant similar to primal gear. Gambit Seals for lack of a better name...

    Allow the merchant to sell +3 +4 and +5 Companion gear. Change the +5 gear to two offense or two defense slots similar to the current +4 gear.

    Give the +5 gear the same stat distribution as the most current high end rings. When new rings get introduced change the old +5 rings to +4 rings etc.. and set the new +5 to match the current ring stat distribution. So this would change gear on our companions as well forcing us to grind new gear as it become available.

    Now make the Gambit Seals for lack of better name drop in the most current skirmishes only... etc. Keeping our grind fresh.

    I would hope that the gambit seals would drop in Random amounts since we all love random... however with a low guarantee of 1 per run. Thus if we grind long enough we are able to get the desired stats / on the desired item we want for our companions.

    Hopefully this will future proof companion gear from becoming obsolete and we wont be forced to all run companions with ring slots allowing more choice.
  • rannxeroxxrannxeroxx Member Posts: 168 Arc User

    Please just change companion gear to a Seal Merchant similar to primal gear. Gambit Seals for lack of a better name...

    Allow the merchant to sell +3 +4 and +5 Companion gear. Change the +5 gear to two offense or two defense slots similar to the current +4 gear.

    Give the +5 gear the same stat distribution as the most current high end rings. When new rings get introduced change the old +5 rings to +4 rings etc.. and set the new +5 to match the current ring stat distribution. So this would change gear on our companions as well forcing us to grind new gear as it become available.

    I really, really like this idea. The problem with IG is even parties that go in and just slaughter the content I have seen come out with less then gold and end up with blue junk. For me, its just a complete waste of time staying paste the first stage. But if you knew you would get x amount of seals for each level, even a unsuccessful attempt gives you a useful reward.

  • sgaddis13#3703 sgaddis13 Member Posts: 107 Arc User

    My suggestion: For important RNG-based loot, such as the +4/+5 rings currently, assign each toon a count of the number of times they didn't receive the top drop. Gradually increase their chance of obtaining the best loot table slot until they do receive it, then reset the counter to zero. That keeps the character of "some players are thrilled to receive awesome loot on their third run" while all-but-removing the withering disappointment of "I ran this 500 times and still don't have what I want."

    That is an excellent idea.

    Side note - I am all about keeping things rare and exciting, so I normally don't complain about RNG (would legendary mounts be worth worrying about if we all got one every few months? No....) but I did find it pretty hilarious that it took me 71 gold IG runs (I used my fleece as a way of counting. I didn't keep a graph or anything crazy like that) to get my first fierce +4 piece, yet I got pretty much every other +4 several times over. Shouldn't all +4's be equally as likely to drop?

    (It was also a fierce +4 that I couldn't actually use, which made it even more funny.)
  • dafrca#4810 dafrca Member Posts: 469 Arc User

    I would never pay for a game that I think is doing a bad job.

    But there are those who do and thus the Devs, as long as they get the target amount of money, will focus on what gets those who pay to keep on paying.

  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    > @sgaddis13#3703 said:
    > My suggestion: For important RNG-based loot, such as the +4/+5 rings currently, assign each toon a count of the number of times they didn't receive the top drop. Gradually increase their chance of obtaining the best loot table slot until they do receive it, then reset the counter to zero. That keeps the character of "some players are thrilled to receive awesome loot on their third run" while all-but-removing the withering disappointment of "I ran this 500 times and still don't have what I want."
    >
    >
    > That is an excellent idea.
    >
    > Side note - I am all about keeping things rare and exciting, so I normally don't complain about RNG (would legendary mounts be worth worrying about if we all got one every few months? No....) but I did find it pretty hilarious that it took me 71 gold IG runs (I used my fleece as a way of counting. I didn't keep a graph or anything crazy like that) to get my first fierce +4 piece, yet I got pretty much every other +4 several times over. Shouldn't all +4's be equally as likely to drop?
    >
    > (It was also a fierce +4 that I couldn't actually use, which made it even more funny.)

    i'm pretty sure +4 fierces have a worse loot chance than others. I've had in total 4 +4 fierces and at least 7-8 of each others. And I did 300+ of them
  • sgaddis13#3703 sgaddis13 Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    When I noticed how frequently I received other +4s, my initial thought was "Well, fierce +4s are more rare because they are the best." Then I immediately had two more thoughts:

    - "Stop being such a class snob. Even thought it is the best for you, someone else may think it's junk for them."
    - "All +4s should have the same drop rate, so that makes no sense."

    I honestly understand the dynamics on this one, but hey.... it is what it is. Either I get one and therefore play better, thus extending my interest in the game, or I never get one and eventually wander off to a new game. My paltry 71 is nothing compared to 300+ runs, so I shouldn't be showing fatigue yet. I can keep trying for awhile.
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