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Control Wizard questions

gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
I really have not played a lot and have been out of the loop for a long time now, but are Control Wizards still good? I don't mean dps per se but I mean useful to the team.

How would I go about my build if i wanted a Crowd Control/Debuffs focused control wizard? (I'm level 70 but havent played much since hitting that level)​​

Comments

  • therealprotextherealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 526 Arc User
    My experience with the CW:

    First of all, forget about CC. Only the simplest of opponents are not control immune anymore and any team would prefer killing them quickly over controlling them. Tougher enemies and bosses are all control immune.

    Currently there are two paths for CWs that are most common (imho). One is the Stormspell Thaumaturge Wizard, which is the dps path for the CW. The other path is the Master of Flame Renegade path, probably the build you are looking for as it is the supporter/buff/debuff build.

    I guess you'll find plenty of these two builds in the internet.

    I should mention that if you go for the dps path, don't be too surprised or disappointed if you are not the first choice for the dps role for end game content like TonG as dps CWs can be really good in dealing damage but with equal preconditions they loose clearly against GWFs and perhaps HRs, too. But on the bright side, you are most likely chosen for the dps role before SWs and TRs. ;-)
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    Well I dont play with people who care only about whats the absolute optimal meta, they're boring and often jerks. So being the absolute top dps class doesn't matter to me.

    If I have to forget about CC as a CONTROL wizard I may as well main SW from now on. its called a CONTROL wizard for beeps sake. control has to be useful. One thing I used to like about neverwinter is it made control useful but I apparently see that good aspect has been abandoned in favor of more boring types of support.​​
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    It depends on the content you are running and the groups you are running with. If the group is burning down packs of mobs in one rotation, control won't be useful. Apart from Fangbreaker Island, most endgame mibs aren't control immune. Most of the trash in Castle Never, Master Spellplague and Tomb of the Nine Gods can be controlled. However, a number of the endgame bosses are DPS checks and a group that doesn't wipe the floor with the trash mobs will really struggle against those bosses. There are no meaningful adds in boss fights apart from the souls in Tomb and those need to be killed ASAP and control means nothing as they don't attack.

    CW does good AOE damage and you can be an asset to a team. However, there is an issue currently where people build teams of 4 support characters and 1 dps. Having only 1 spot makes the competion fierce and GWF is far and away the popular choice. If you don't run such groups, this won't be an issue.

    All of that said, Scourge Warlock is in far worse shape and generally seen more as support if they are seen at all.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    I dunno, I started a Scourge Warlock and so far its the most powerful class I've played. I think this is an issue similar to FInal Fantasy 14's machinist class, where it just doesn't click for most people but some people still do extremely well with it becuase its their playstyle.​​
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    People who have been the top SWs since the class started, the top theorycrafters, most of them have either left the game or are playing other classes. If you don't want to take my word, ask in the SW forum.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    Well I like it so far hopefully it will still be as fun at max level, and will be ok until they buff it to be as awesome as the other classes.​​
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    @pitshade

    Your statement is correct, SWs are either switching to another class, it happens in all platforms as it is overnerfed to the point is the weakest class in the game.

    @gradii

    If you meant you like SW so far, know that community in general doesn't as it objectively is the worst damage dealer so good luck getting invited to endgame content unless you have friends/guildies who can invite you to run with them.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    @pitshade

    Your statement is correct, SWs are either switching to another class, it happens in all platforms as it is overnerfed to the point is the weakest class in the game.

    @gradii

    If you meant you like SW so far, know that community in general doesn't as it objectively is the worst damage dealer so good luck getting invited to endgame content unless you have friends/guildies who can invite you to run with them.

    Well if people are going to be like that I'd rather not play with them at all, people who only care about maximum efficiency for everything tend to also be the same kind of people not worth caring about or having off mute.

    I'll play what i like and anyone who doesn't like that can GTFO. its a game and fun is the number one objective.​​
  • therealprotextherealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 526 Arc User
    gradii said:

    Well I dont play with people who care only about whats the absolute optimal meta, they're boring and often jerks. So being the absolute top dps class doesn't matter to me.



    If I have to forget about CC as a CONTROL wizard I may as well main SW from now on. its called a CONTROL wizard for beeps sake. control has to be useful. One thing I used to like about neverwinter is it made control useful but I apparently see that good aspect has been abandoned in favor of more boring types of support.​​

    Don't kill the messenger.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User

    Don't kill the messenger.

    I shoot the messenger but not in a vital spot.​​
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    edited December 2017
    gradii said:



    @pitshade



    Your statement is correct, SWs are either switching to another class, it happens in all platforms as it is overnerfed to the point is the weakest class in the game.



    @gradii



    If you meant you like SW so far, know that community in general doesn't as it objectively is the worst damage dealer so good luck getting invited to endgame content unless you have friends/guildies who can invite you to run with them.


    Well if people are going to be like that I'd rather not play with them at all, people who only care about maximum efficiency for everything tend to also be the same kind of people not worth caring about or having off mute.



    I'll play what i like and anyone who doesn't like that can GTFO. its a game and fun is the number one objective.​​
    Well, if you ain't gonna 'play with them at all', you're unlikely to be doing much playing. Gotta live with the world.
    FrozenFire
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    Speaking of, if you're after team utility, you should consider a DC or maybe a Tank if you'd prefer.
    FrozenFire
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    @pitshade



    Your statement is correct, SWs are either switching to another class, it happens in all platforms as it is overnerfed to the point is the weakest class in the game.



    @gradii



    If you meant you like SW so far, know that community in general doesn't as it objectively is the worst damage dealer so good luck getting invited to endgame content unless you have friends/guildies who can invite you to run with them.

    Maybe top end game players are swapping out of the SW class but when I pug SW and GWF are the two most often seen DPS classes in the game.

    SW though from level 1-70 is actually quite easy to play. When you hit true end game there is a difference between each DPS class.

    It goes...

    1. GWF
    2. HR
    3. TR
    4. CW
    5. SW

    Above is my current DPS ranking where TR and CW can almost bet swapped with each other. GWF vs HR some may state the two classes can produce almost the same damage, but there is a difference between the two class and the GWF has feats that not only boost it damage but also its power which provides it, IMO, an unfair advantage over other DPS class, especially as players get gear with higher stats or when the devs push RI up, other classes have to adjust and may take a bigger lose in power when compared to a GWF. This also does not include the higher weapon damage that a GWF has when compared to other classes.

    The other thing is GWF is the lone class where it cannot buff the teams damage. All other classes have feats, encounter,dailies or at wills that provide some type of group buff / utility. IMO, the lack of offering groups a buff makes it the most selfish class and that is the reason why I do not play one and never will.

    If you want to be a top DPS go GWF.

    CW has four builds that are played and not two.

    SS - DPS
    MoF DPS
    MoF Hybrid
    MoF Buffer

    I play MoF and like you I wanted a CC Wizard. I created one and played that build for about a week and I went full on CC getting all feats and artifacts that would boost my ability to CC. After one week that build became a SS DPS build for me. It was fun playing my CW differently but my damage was horrible, most adds died that I could CC and those that I could not CC my lack of damage and lack of ability to produce better buff hurt the group more than helping it out.

    If you want to play a CW go either with the two primary builds of MoF buffer or SS DPS. If you want something in between you can run a MoF Hybrid where your feats are setup as a MoF DPS but your personals are setup to provide some type of group buffing.

    If you enjoy playing as SW than play that, but at end game the SW will be beaten by any equally gear DPS that knows what they are doing.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User


    The other thing is GWF is the lone class where it cannot buff the teams damage. All other classes have feats, encounter,dailies or at wills that provide some type of group buff / utility.



    Battle Fury exists.

    And what's even funnier is that the GWF's Battle Fury being a buff makes it much better for buffing the team than either the TR's 3x Wicked Reminder or Sly Flourish debuff (ymmv on Wicked Reminder + Sly Flourish versus Battle Fury for teammates).

    And the GWF doesn't have to give up anything significant in their rotation for it, unlike TR and Wicked Reminder.

  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:


    The other thing is GWF is the lone class where it cannot buff the teams damage. All other classes have feats, encounter,dailies or at wills that provide some type of group buff / utility.



    Battle Fury exists.

    And what's even funnier is that the GWF's Battle Fury being a buff makes it much better for buffing the team than either the TR's 3x Wicked Reminder or Sly Flourish debuff (ymmv on Wicked Reminder + Sly Flourish versus Battle Fury for teammates).

    And the GWF doesn't have to give up anything significant in their rotation for it, unlike TR and Wicked Reminder.
    You are right but most GWF don't run that. Instead they run Daring Shout. Rarely do I see or hear of a GWF running Battle Fury. If the GWF does run battle fury it is when in a group with a GF. That is what I typically see. Even on my GF, I see many GWF running Daring Shout over Battle Fury.

    A few GWF explained to me why most GWF rarely run Battle Fury and it is for a selfish reason. The reason is, many GWF don't want to buff other players damage, especially other DD. And that response came from a few different good end game GWF. So, again, GWF are selfish, well most of them.

    As for TR, I just know they had some group utility and I know a few TR that kept that slotted to benefit the group, unlike the GWF I know that forgo the buff for selfish reasons. Just pointing out my experience with the two classes and players that play them.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    rjc9000 said:


    The other thing is GWF is the lone class where it cannot buff the teams damage. All other classes have feats, encounter,dailies or at wills that provide some type of group buff / utility.



    Battle Fury exists.

    And what's even funnier is that the GWF's Battle Fury being a buff makes it much better for buffing the team than either the TR's 3x Wicked Reminder or Sly Flourish debuff (ymmv on Wicked Reminder + Sly Flourish versus Battle Fury for teammates).

    And the GWF doesn't have to give up anything significant in their rotation for it, unlike TR and Wicked Reminder.
    You are right but most GWF don't run that. Instead they run Daring Shout. Rarely do I see or hear of a GWF running Battle Fury. If the GWF does run battle fury it is when in a group with a GF. That is what I typically see. Even on my GF, I see many GWF running Daring Shout over Battle Fury.

    A few GWF explained to me why most GWF rarely run Battle Fury and it is for a selfish reason. The reason is, many GWF don't want to buff other players damage, especially other DD. And that response came from a few different good end game GWF. So, again, GWF are selfish, well most of them.

    As for TR, I just know they had some group utility and I know a few TR that kept that slotted to benefit the group, unlike the GWF I know that forgo the buff for selfish reasons. Just pointing out my experience with the two classes and players that play them.
    Then they dont know their class . First of all when you are doing daring shout you buff your team 15% damage( the default value of the combat advantage) at least on mobs a gf cannot mark all targets. Also mark is 8% debuff for others .
    Battle fury indeed i correct myself buff the team by 6.25%.

    WHen a gwf plays without battle fury in a non mark party losing damage on att wills.
    FOR me personal i cant play with intomitable without a gf so i go daring shout battle fury for the above.
    NO matter if i have hunter or cw or sw ( new module) for combat advantage the mark from daring shout will help always first me then the team .

    They are no selfish class because if we go down that route i would say that a dps cw is selfish because they dont play as renegade dps to give even with chance 30% damage buff and delay "the speed of the run".
    Have a nice day.
    Post edited by mamalion1234 on
  • d3cepti0n#1453 d3cepti0n Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    rjc9000 said:


    The other thing is GWF is the lone class where it cannot buff the teams damage. All other classes have feats, encounter,dailies or at wills that provide some type of group buff / utility.



    Battle Fury exists.

    And what's even funnier is that the GWF's Battle Fury being a buff makes it much better for buffing the team than either the TR's 3x Wicked Reminder or Sly Flourish debuff (ymmv on Wicked Reminder + Sly Flourish versus Battle Fury for teammates).

    And the GWF doesn't have to give up anything significant in their rotation for it, unlike TR and Wicked Reminder.
    You are right but most GWF don't run that. Instead they run Daring Shout. Rarely do I see or hear of a GWF running Battle Fury. If the GWF does run battle fury it is when in a group with a GF. That is what I typically see. Even on my GF, I see many GWF running Daring Shout over Battle Fury.

    A few GWF explained to me why most GWF rarely run Battle Fury and it is for a selfish reason. The reason is, many GWF don't want to buff other players damage, especially other DD. And that response came from a few different good end game GWF. So, again, GWF are selfish, well most of them.

    As for TR, I just know they had some group utility and I know a few TR that kept that slotted to benefit the group, unlike the GWF I know that forgo the buff for selfish reasons. Just pointing out my experience with the two classes and players that play them.
    I wouldn't generalize by saying "GWFs, .. TRs", etc. (Except some psychological factors that lead to that decision) the class you pick is irrelevant to your personality. I believe rjc reffered to the GWF as a class, "I know many don't use it" isn't a valid argument. Do your friends have such a huge ego that would rather take longer to complete a dungeon than buff the team? Awesome, natural selection. Let them have their runs. But since BF is in a end-game GWF's rotation and there is at least 1 person using it, it's safe to claim that "GWFs buff the party more than TRs".

    Regarding the post, mod 13 is looking good for the CW. SS dps got a buff due to a couple changes (more info can be found on thefabricant's post) and MoF has almost ensured a place in the endgame, since our latest content is a 10man trial. Both ways to play the CW will be viable, although if you are currently lacking on items I would recommend MoF, since SS is much more item reliant, while MoF can be played efficiently at a much lower IL.
    Piece by piece.
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